Child Abuse In The Uk

[Marbles]

Help me understand. So there's a special 'children's home' where kids from broken families who don't have anyone to care for them go, right?

 

There's a big problem in the society if under age girls come back high on drugs and alcohol and no one in the management takes notice and does anything about it.

 

Britain makes a big show of its 'rigorous' visa regime but it seems that Pakistan in the last couple of decades or so have had a 'rapist drain'. The 'best and bright' rapists have found their way to Her Majesty's little Island without let or hindrance.

 

In any case, more juice for the right-wingers to feed on.

 

Rotherham's abusers "brazenly" picked up girls as young as 11 from their children's home, an ex-worker says.

 

The unnamed male care worker said the abusers made "absolutely no attempts to disguise what they were doing."

 

He claimed staff were reluctant to intervene in some cases for fear of being classed as "racist".

 

A report found that at least 1,400 children were sexually exploited in the town by men predominantly of Pakistani heritage between 1997 and 2013.

 

The abuse they suffered included beatings, rape and trafficking to various towns and cities in England, Prof Alexis Jay's report revealed on Tuesday.

 

The care worker told the BBC men would arrive almost "every night" and often the girls, who lived at the home and escaped using a range of methods, would be collected by taxis.

 

"Sometimes, [the men] would phone and they would pick up around the corner, but sometimes they would just turn up and pick up at the children's home," he said.

 

Each time a girl went missing police were called, but officers usually only arrived when the child got back to the home, sometimes "high on drugs" or "incredibly drunk", he said.

 

"They led us very much on a merry dance and there wasn't much we could do apart from keep documenting," he said.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28974336

Edited August 29, 2014 by Marbles

[Haji 2003]

Britain makes a big show of its 'rigorous' visa regime but it seems that Pakistan in the last couple of decades or so have had a 'rapist drain'. The 'best and bright' rapists have found their way to Her Majesty's little Island without let or hindrance.

 

 

 

 

I am not aware of any reports that specifically point to these Pakistani men being new immigrants, they could have been born in the UK.

 

Personally, I feel that whenever working class people emigrate there can be problems of integration and identity. This is a stereotypical example, in my opinion. The British immigration problem is that too many working class Pakistanis (paendus) have been allowed to come to the UK; just as too many peasant Afghan immigrants have destroyed Karachi.

 

Another problem is to do with the homes system. Various (non-Asian) celebrities and politicians have been linked with child abuse related to children's homes.

 

I also feel that there is actually a group of indigenous, white Britons who can tend to be over-liberal and accommodating (sometimes due to ideological reasons) and who do minorities, such as Asians, no favours.

[Jahangiram]

Let's just hope analysts continue to highlight the fact that Pakistani muslim girls have also been victims of these grooming gangs... 

[Marbles]

I am not aware of any reports that specifically point to these Pakistani men being new immigrants, they could have been born in the UK.

 

If I remember correctly, the rapist ring of Pak men that was busted a while ago comprised of migrants born outside the UK save one. But yes they could have been born in the UK, all the same.

 

The British immigration problem started right at the beginning of their ill-conceived policy under which most migrants from Pakistan and other subcontinental countries were made of uneducated peasant stock. This has never stopped.

[Haji 2003]

The British immigration problem started right at the beginning of their ill-conceived policy under which most migrants from Pakistan and other subcontinental countries were made of uneducated peasant stock. This has never stopped.

 

Again it's a bit more nuanced.

 

The Gujeratis are well educated and from urban background, hence both Hindu and Muslims have assimilated better.

 

Sikhs are where my theory breaks down because they are also from predominantly rural background, but make much less of a nuisance of themselves, compared to Muslims.

[Jahangiram]

^The shifting of attention away from Sikhs was only recent; before the post-9/11 era they were routinely targeted for refusing to assimilate, having special privelages, domestic violence, forced marriages, honor killings etc. They were a target as far back as 1968 in Enoch Powell's infamous 'Rivers of Blood' speech.

 

Its only in the post 9/11 era that cultural conservatives in the UK have found it more convenient to place disproportionate attention on Muslims.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jahangiram

[Marbles]

Again it's a bit more nuanced.

 

The Gujeratis are well educated and from urban background, hence both Hindu and Muslims have assimilated better.

 

Sikhs are where my theory breaks down because they are also from predominantly rural background, but make much less of a nuisance of themselves, compared to Muslims.

 

Today you have all sorts of migrants from all sorts of backgrounds from all sorts of countries and nations. I'm talking about when it started back in the late 50s till at least 70s when the heavy majority of migrants from Pakistan and the rest of the Subcontinent [along with the Caribbean] were poor peasant types whom Britain encouraged to migrate to man their factories. Then, they made up the majority of migrants. Every impecunious, unemployed, under-educated, able-bodied man was seen with air tickets in his hand.

 

What was natural followed, much to the chagrin of the British authorities. One peasant family set off a chain reaction of migrations for dozens of relatives and friends. "Send me a visa when you go to vilayat" was a popular line in Pakistan television dramas from the 70s and 80s.

 

So the sum total of migrants to the UK were not highly skilled, educated, top professionals as is to often presumed. And they and their descendents have kept their paindu-ness in tact, with British accents. And their new numbers have never stopped migrating.

 

Sikhs are fewer in numbers and probably that's why they are not as conspicuous as Muslims. Otherwise the paindu factor remains the same. There have also been cases of honour killings in the Sikh community, perhaps the only non-Muslim community from which such cases have come out. They are also not behind, at least in my personal experience, when it comes to benefits fraud.

[Abu Hadi]

salam, 

 

The main problem is that there is a large population of British (either White or Pakistani) who believe that it's o.k. to abandon their children. I have been unemployed and almost destitute( not anymore, Alhamduillah), in the U.S. where the benefits are much, much less generous than they are in the U.K with 2 children and I never for a second thought about abandoning my children. Whether muslim or non muslim, anyone who does this is a completely low person and I have no respect for them. What do you think is going to happen when you turn your young children over to, basically, a stranger who is paid a salary to look after them but have no family or emotional connection with these children. 

 

At the same time, you have people who are technically muslim but with a criminal mindset hiding within communities who only recognize criminal behavior when it is done by outsiders and don't deal with things that are going on within their own community. From the reports that I am hearing (over 1400 girls), this would have to be happening on such a large scale within a relatively small community that I don't think that it's possible that other muslims who lived there didn't know what was going on. The main ones responsible are obviously the ones who did the crime, but blame for this is also shared by the parents who abandoned these girls and the muslim community where this took place because they did nothing to stop it. 

There is a hadith where Allah(s.w.a) says ' I will punish the criminals and also some good people (i.e. people who follow the sharia of the Prophet). When the Imam(a.s) was asked about this hadith, he said, 'the good(observant) ones will be punished because they saw injustice happening and could have stopped it but didn't do anything'. 

 

The proper thing to do would have been to marry these girls, give them a real home, and take them out of the public system. If they would have done that, it is very likely that we would have had a healthy stable community of muslims in this area and they would have been rewarded by Allah(s.w.a) for that and it also would have given a good image of Islam to the non muslim British. Instead, they chose to exploit these girls and behave as a criminal gang, so I think, unfortunately, now there will be big consequences for the muslim community in Britain, and not in a good way. The Zionist controlled media will exploit this to the maximum. Unfortunately, the backlash is coming, and if I lived in the U.K I would make it very clear to all my non muslim friends and collegues that what these criminals did has nothing to do with Islam, or even Pakistani culture, and that I have nothing to do with them. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Abu Hadi

[Ruq]

I find it all a bit weird. Maybe its something to do with Yorkshire. Im sure we havent had issues like this in the midlands and there are large asian communities here. The care system hasnt had the greatest reputation for a long time. Its not at all unusual to hear about kids having bad experiences, being shunted from one place to the next, never settling and if they have behavioural problems they have it even harder because the services are so stretched. Its no wonder that so many kids in care end up in awful situations like this. The whole system needs shaking up. I think, like in a lot of services, people are over worked/stressed, sick of the bureaucracy and limitations put on them that can hinder them from effectively doing their jobs and the people that need the help become dehumanised by the people that are in charge of their welfare. Though i dont doubt that there are some amazing foster carers out there that are making a huge difference to peoples lives.

 

paindu-ness

 

?

[Marbles]

?

 

Let's say, a yokel.

 

It refers to a certain subculture and its consequent mindset. Imagine a person with little formal education, bad manners, loud and lousy-mouthed, prone to violence, unfair in public dealings - a greedy and mean-spirited person who believes in taking but not in giving.

 

People with a hard existence who have to fight for crumbs of bread and take care of themselves in harsh lawless surroundings develop such attitudes.

 

People from rural peasant stock usually make for paindus but it's a mindset and urban city-dwellers can also display paindu characteristics and be counted amongst them.

 

That said, this label should be used very carefully. It's proper use depends on its context. It's a loose term, not a proper label, and it is not very objective. The term is often used pejoratively by Westernised desi city folks who despise people from small towns and rural areas for not being as educated and as urban-mannered as they are.

 

And you are probably correct is suspecting that it might be a Yorkshire problem. I have lived there for a few years and frankly if I were not a Pakistani myself, and If I were told that those people were a good representation of Pakistan, I'd have had strange ideas about that country and the people that inhabit it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Marbles

[Abu Hadi]

I'll tell you one thing, if I were a British Muslim and lived anywhere near that area, I would be hanging my head in shame. 

The same kind of thing happens here in the U.S., maybe even on a larger scale, but it is done by Russian Mafia and Latin American Drug Cartels, i.e. non muslim. To them, killing a whole family affects them emotionally just as much as eating breakfast, so you expect it from them. To have 'muslims' doing something like this is , wow, just I'm shocked. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Abu Hadi

[Ruq]

Let's just hope analysts continue to highlight the fact that Pakistani muslim girls have also been victims of these grooming gangs... 

 

Just saw this relevant article: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir

[Haji 2003]

To have 'muslims' doing something like this is , wow, just I'm shocked. 

 

Well the problem in some sects is that you have any Osama and Umar making up fiqh.

 

So I had a Sunni colleague from Yorkshire telling me that there are drug dealers of Pakistani descent who believe that your sins in distributing drugs are cleansed when you go to hajj (and/or Umra).

 

So that's what they do.

 

In terms of the child-grooming story, one other factor to remember is that in some towns a significant proportion of the taxi driver trade is made up of men of Pakistani descent.

 

Now one of life's realities is that they do have greater than average 'opportunities' for casual sex. (From female passengers unable to pay for their fares). I am not kidding. The reason I know about this is because I knew someone in the health profession who had created a 'taxi-driver' project to protect these people from STDs. So anyway, being out on the streets etc. makes these men more likely to come across people from broken backgrounds. Not an excuse, of course, but it can help explain another reason as to why it's this particular group.

[aliasghark]

Let's just hope analysts continue to highlight the fact that Pakistani muslim girls have also been victims of these grooming gangs... 

 

Also that if the Muslim community was allowed to follow Islamic laws here, these abusers would be wiped out in no time. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by aliasghark

[Jahangiram]

Just saw this relevant article: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir

Good article, shows why there are less reports of pakistani victims. I actually once had a discussion about this with my dad, because you keep hearing about this honor-shame paradigm within arab & asian communities (and with his arab background he'd know best about this). In normal cases of fornication (consensual sex) the girl is said to lose her honor. In cases of rape she didn't lose it/give it away, rather it was 'robbed', taken away by force, transgressed etc. The underlying logic behind this is that to have your body used as a conduit for fornication is dishonoring. So if a man gets raped by a gay male he's also seen as a 'dishonored' person. They agree the rape victim has no sin on them but there's still humiliation; just like getting your hand blown off in a battle isn't a sin of your own, yet you're put at a disadvantage. 

 

Sad really, if parents get past their feelings of embarrasment and shame many more of these criminals would've been behind bars.  

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jahangiram

[godzapostle]

Also that if the Muslim community was allowed to follow Islamic laws here, these abusers would be wiped out in no time. 

 

Do you really want a mini-ISIS in the heart of london?

That is what it will inevitably degenerate into so long as sunnis are the majority.

I'll tell you one thing, if I were a British Muslim and lived anywhere near that area, I would be hanging my head in shame. 

The same kind of thing happens here in the U.S., maybe even on a larger scale, but it is done by Russian Mafia and Latin American Drug Cartels, i.e. non muslim. To them, killing a whole family affects them emotionally just as much as eating breakfast, so you expect it from them. To have 'muslims' doing something like this is , wow, just I'm shocked. 

 

Why are you shocked? Sunni ISIS is doing the same thing to shia, christian and Yezidi women and children in Iraq and syria.

Edited August 29, 2014 by godzapostle

[Jahangiram]

Do you really want a mini-ISIS in the heart of london?

That is what it will inevitably degenerate into so long as sunnis are the majority.

 

Is your hatred of sunnis really so irrational that you think they'd tolerate drunk paindus and sunni girls being molested in mosques and homes? 

[Ruq]

Good article, shows why there are less reports of pakistani victims. I actually once had a discussion about this with my dad, because you keep hearing about this honor-shame paradigm within arab & asian communities (and with his arab background he'd know best about this). In normal cases of fornication (consensual sex) the girl is said to lose her honor. In cases of rape she didn't lose it/give it away, rather it was 'robbed', taken away by force, transgressed etc. The underlying logic behind this is that to have your body used as a conduit for fornication is dishonoring. So if a man gets raped by a gay male he's also seen as a 'dishonored' person. They agree the rape victim has no sin on them but there's still humiliation; just like getting your hand blown off in a battle isn't a sin of your own, yet you're put at a disadvantage. 

 

Sad really, if parents get past their feelings of embarrasment and shame many more of these criminals would've been behind bars.  

 

Im sure things are changing with each new generation inshAllah. It is incredibly saddening, because often victims of abuse feel shame and self blame (irrespective of culture) and to have your community confirm that must make it so much harder. Do you think its tied into valuing virginity also? so if a parent thinks their child may not have their virginity anymore they want to shush it up partly because its seen as a prized thing that the future spouse and his family will see as important? in the instance of abused females that is.

[godzapostle]

Is your hatred of sunnis really so irrational that you think they'd tolerate drunk paindus and sunni girls being molested in mosques and homes? 

 

I dont know if they would and i dont care but most of these abused girls were not Sunni and it seems the Sunnis in England were quite tolerant of the abusers.

 

"They were non-Muslim [Edited Out]s so they deserved it"---What most Sunnis think when they hear about this story.

[Jahangiram]

Im sure things are changing with each new generation inshAllah. It is incredibly saddening, because often victims of abuse feel shame and self blame (irrespective of culture) and to have your community confirm that must make it so much harder. Do you think its tied into valuing virginity also? so if a parent thinks their child may not have their virginity anymore they want to shush it up partly because its seen as a prized thing that the future spouse and his family will see as important? in the instance of abused females that is.

Absolutely, in fact its worse when the girl is virgin; because the haya' (modesty/shyness) is naturally more abundant in a virgin girl than every male out there (a superior quality of females spoken of in hadiths!); losing virginity via rape will take away some of that haya', and the girl is inevitably seen as less marriage material. I'll say it again, in none of this is there any sin laid on the doorstep of the victim, most people operating within this honor-shame paradigm recognise this. Its just feelings of humiliation and embarrassment that override their disgust towards the rapist. 

[aliasghark]

Do you really want a mini-ISIS in the heart of london?

That is what it will inevitably degenerate into so long as sunnis are the majority.

 

Of course nobody wants ISIS right? Our systems need to be more responsible and fight these abusers before something more radical comes along to do the dirty work. 

 

And by the way, what makes you think ISIS will be tolerated here? Remember Muslims leaders in the west generally are much more moderate than average moderates there ('moderate' meaning closer to actual Islamic guidance, of taking on the middle road). And ISIS was too extreme to remain in Al Qaeda. Except for a tiny Wahabi fringe, no mainstream Muslim organization would support that kind of an affront here. 

[Jahangiram]

I dont know if they would and i dont care but most of these abused girls were not Sunni and it seems the Sunnis in England were quite tolerant of the abusers.

 

"They were non-Muslim [Edited Out]s so they deserved it"---What most Sunnis think when they hear about this story.

You seriously think sunnis in England feel joyful about this news? What planet are you on?  Not really approaching any of these topics in a level-headed manner are you. You were already told in another thread about how the West couldnt give a rats bottom whether you're sunni or shia, with many examples showcasing this. Desperately trying to be accepted in Europe by resorting to sectarianism is just going to make you the main course, along with Hezbollah and Iran. This is the same mentality of those obnoxious sunnis on the internet, who try to appeal to the anti-muslim crowd by pretending their understanding of taqiyyah is something shias believe in. 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Jahangiram

[Marbles]

Also that if the Muslim community was allowed to follow Islamic laws here, these abusers would be wiped out in no time. 

 

If the Muslim community followed Islam in their individual lives there would be no such abusers to begin with.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Also that if the Muslim community was allowed to follow Islamic laws here, these abusers would be wiped out in no time. 

I am partly agreeing with Godapostle post. I made this thread specifically for the likes of your ideas but it seems posters had missed the point by miles.

 

 

You seriously think sunnis in England feel joyful about this news? What planet are you on?  Not really approaching any of these topics in a level-headed manner are you. You were already told in another thread about how the West couldnt give a rats bottom whether you're sunni or shia, with many examples showcasing this. Desperately trying to be accepted in Europe by resorting to sectarianism is just going to make you the main course, along with Hezbollah and Iran. This is the same mentality of those obnoxious sunnis on the internet, who try to appeal to the anti-muslim crowd by pretending their understanding of taqiyyah is something shias believe in. 

 

 

I am not sure about "Sunnis" in England specifically BUT I know that Azhar, the only possible sunni institution that can be referred to, is doing really bad in countering ISIS ideology.

I am not going to accuse the Sunnis of Britain but I can say safely that they are not immune to ISIS virus. up until now 4 thousand sunni from Europe joined the ISIS. I am sure that there are more who are living there and holding up this ideology.

As for Sunnis tolerance to "crossing the morality red lines", for me and for now and before proving anything to the" infidels", i'd like them to prove to us the rest of muslims that they are humans.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Chaotic Muslem

[aliasghark]

If the Muslim community followed Islam in their individual lives there would be no such abusers to begin with.

 

That's true.  If there were no crime, society wouldn't have to deal with it. 

[aliasghark]

I am partly agreeing with Godapostle post. I made this thread specifically for the likes of your ideas but it seems posters had missed the point by miles.

 

 

 

 

I am not sure about "Sunnis" in England specifically BUT I know that Azhar, the only possible sunni institution that can be referred to, is doing really bad in countering ISIS ideology.

I am not going to accuse the Sunnis of Britain but I can say safely that they are not immune to ISIS virus. up until now 4 thousand sunni from Europe joined the ISIS. I am sure that there are more who are living there and holding up this ideology.

As for Sunnis tolerance to "crossing the morality red lines", for me and for now and before proving anything to the" infidels", i'd like them to prove to us the rest of muslims that they are humans.

 

I had posted this in another thread but since it could have easily been missed, I've started a new thread for it here: 

 

 

From the arguably highest authority among Sunnis: Al-Azhar condemns ISIS as corrupt and a danger to Islam

 

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Aug-13/267022-al-azhar-condemns-isis-as-corrupt-and-a-danger-to-islam.ashx

Edited August 30, 2014 by aliasghark

[Chaotic Muslem]

I had posted this in another thread but since it could have easily been missed, I've started a new thread for it here: 

 

 

From the arguably highest authority among Sunnis: Al-Azhar condemns ISIS as corrupt and a danger to Islam

 

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Aug-13/267022-al-azhar-condemns-isis-as-corrupt-and-a-danger-to-islam.ashx

How many Arab sunnis (south africans, gulfers, syrians, iraqis) and non arab sunnis ( south asians, eastern asians, caucasians , europeans, australians , americans) really care about what Al Azhar may say?

Azhar also is not monolithic in its stance against sectarianism and craziness that is striking the Sunnis. 

 

Anyways, couldn't care about them honestly. The main issue today is the point that was brought up by brother Jahan. Islam is being targeted by scandals and rumors. As it was said, for those unaware of what is islam is about from non Muslims and from some silly ugly empty skulls muslims as well who have no clue what the word wudu means, for them the acts of those supposedly muslims are the true representation of Islam.

 

It is totally logical to call a 19 years old boy marriage from 15 years old girl a pedophilia and it is totally moral to insult your mother in the face. 

 

Because we are adopting these skewed moral systems, we will start to propagate a number of scandals brought to light intentionally just to demoralize the whole muslim community.

 

I am actually surprised from Bro Marble's choices as he always bring such scandals. It is well known that such crimes exist in every land and almost every city. Pakistanis and contrary to their name are not angels. They are humans like the humans working with Mafia or ISIS or satan worshippers.

 

Islamic history is not devoid from similar stories. You -westerners- just missed the Islamic non religious literature scandals.

 

Propagating the scandals - even if it is to defame the other sect- is not the way to solve the social problems . Scandals are good to charge people with negative irrational disgust, in this case, from Muslims, poor Muslims, rural Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, Pakistani british Muslims without discrimination.

It will not surprise me if i in future heard one of you say something like : Islamic patriarchy is promoter of rape, along the lines of : consanguinity is incest. 

[aliasghark]

 

How many Arab sunnis (south africans, gulfers, syrians, iraqis) and non arab sunnis ( south asians, eastern asians, caucasians , europeans, australians , americans) really care about what Al Azhar may say?

Azhar also is not monolithic in its stance against sectarianism and craziness that is striking the Sunnis. 

 

Anyways, couldn't care about them honestly. 

 

 

Well, I was responding to your point about Al Azhar as a Sunni institution doing a bad job countering ISIS... you did mention it. 

 

I don't understand the point you're trying to make in the rest of the post, so I'll avoid commenting on it for now. 

[Chaotic Muslem]

Well, I was responding to your point about Al Azhar as a Sunni institution doing a bad job countering ISIS... you did mention it. 

 

I don't understand the point you're trying to make in the rest of the post, so I'll avoid commenting on it for now. 

Imam Ali said " لا رأي لمن لا يطاع"

The man who is not obeyed, his opinions are worthless

(even though if they were pearls of wisdom, an opinion that no one listen to is worthless, which is the case of Al Azhar)

[aliasghark]

Imam Ali said " لا رأي لمن لا يطاع"

The man who is not obeyed, his opinions are worthless

(even though if they were pearls of wisdom, an opinion that no one listen to is worthless, which is the case of Al Azhar)

 

It's the largest/most-respected Sunni institution as you had also acknowledged above - if you're saying no one listens to it, you'll have to provide evidence. 

[Marbles]

I am actually surprised from Bro Marble's choices as he always bring such scandals

 

Propagating the scandals - even if it is to defame the other sect- is not the way to solve the social problems . Scandals are good to charge people with negative irrational disgust, in this case, from Muslims, poor Muslims, rural Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, Pakistani british Muslims without discrimination.

 

I disagree with the choice of term used to designate this case and other such cases as a 'scandal'. This is a case of crime and the early they are exposed and dealt with the better. Once public knowledge, there is no escape from discussing it because it is all over the place anyway.

 

Recognising a problem is the first step toward dealing with it. How will it solve anything if communities refuse to talk about such cases of crimes for the excuse that it gives bad image to the said community and the religion the said community follows?

 

Now, what I don't understand is that why should a news about a gang of child rapists mostly of Pakistani Muslim origin should be construed as an attack on that community or a scandal of Islam?

 

It is wrong if right-wingers fan the flames for hateful purposes and it is also wrong when the said community/religion tries to suppress it for defensive purpose

 

If I have misunderstood you, then please feel free to elucidate.

 

As an aside, much has been made of the rapists being Sunnis [a piece of information found nowhere] but in my view there is nothing sectarian about it. The attackers might very well have belonged nominally to any sect. Unlike the atrocities committed by hardcore Takfiris of ISIS under the label of Islam, the rapists ring in this case were not inspired by religion in any way to make it a sectarian or a religious issue.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Marbles

[Chaotic Muslem]

Of course nobody wants ISIS right? Our systems need to be more responsible and fight these abusers before something more radical comes along to do the dirty work. 

 

And by the way, what makes you think ISIS will be tolerated here? Remember Muslims leaders in the west generally are much more moderate than average moderates there ('moderate' meaning closer to actual Islamic guidance, of taking on the middle road). And ISIS was too extreme to remain in Al Qaeda. Except for a tiny Wahabi fringe, no mainstream Muslim organization would support that kind of an affront here. 

 

You are living in your rosy world

 

 

 

 

I disagree with the choice of term used to designate this case and other such cases as a 'scandal'. This is a case of crime and the early they are exposed and dealt with the better. Once public knowledge, there is no escape from discussing it because it is all over the place anyway.

 

Almost all scandals are crimes. Scandal isn't about the nature of crime but about how we socially handled it. Scandal tend to handle crimes by defaming and demoralizing a person or a group of people.Although Islamicaly, some crimes' punishments is to publicize it to everyone but that should be done through the court.

In this case, as we are not a court but regular citizens but with extra responsibility. 

 

Recognising a problem is the first step toward dealing with it. How will it solve anything if communities refuse to talk about such cases of crimes for the excuse that it gives bad image to the said community and the religion the said community follows?

Courts. courts should be the means of solving crimes. Then the proper institutions. Just by making a public announcement about a crime isn't going to solve it. Those who are criminals have no shame and those who are victims are the weakest of the community. Both of them won't stop to exist by making it public.

Practically and dynamically wise, making it public can raise awareness about an issue only.

 

 

Now, what I don't understand is that why should a news about a gang of child rapists mostly of Pakistani Muslim origin should be construed as an attack on that community or a scandal of Islam?

 

In normal situations it shouldn't be an issue but today it is a big issue. I came from a place where scandalous news from my island was reported to newspapers on regular basis. If you followed them you would think that I live in Chicago. All of those news were true and al of them were also reported by known Shia who write stuff that looked like positive criticism to the community but after a while everyone saw how they were but demoralizing and meant to lower the spirit and the self esteem of the people and their pride in their island.

I just feel the same about this. I don't deny that there are criminals from every town, but over reporting or being very detailed about the background of a certain criminals just to defame others, i take that as media politiks.

As moved out, i saw more horrendous crimes in nearby cities, higher in quantity and lower in quality. Noon, not even 1% of them were reported and if any, the criminals was made sure to be portrayed to represent non by the criminals. Not his people.

 

 

It is wrong if right-wingers fan the flames for hateful purposes and it is also wrong when the said community/religion tries to suppress it for defensive purpose

 

If I have misunderstood you, then please feel free to elucidate.

 

As an aside, much has been made of the rapists being Sunnis [a piece of information found nowhere] but in my view there is nothing sectarian about it. The attackers might very well have belonged nominally to any sect. Unlike the atrocities committed by hardcore Takfiris of ISIS under the label of Islam, the rapists ring in this case were not inspired by religion in any way to make it a sectarian or a religious issue.

 

I won't comment on Sunnis. Currently I am in struggle with my brain to call them kafirs every time their ugly face surfaced. I'll skip this point.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Chaotic Muslem

[aliasghark]

You are living in your rosy world

 

With respect, a random statement and video with people acting weird doesn't really say much.