Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
truthandjustice

Questions From A Relatively New Muslim

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

So you are not able to respond  the questions asked under post no 53 and 56  Ok Thnks 

 

Regards

You are not allowed to make question as my motive over here is not to defend Sunni version of Islam but rather to inquire Shia version of Islam based on "Doctrine of Imamate"! 

 

If you want to ask questions related to Sunni Islam, go to some SunniForum.com.

 

CONCLUDE THIS DISCUSSION AS FOLLOWS:

 

Show me up a single tradition of Shia by Prophet Muhammed (saw) narrated by Ali (ra) then the narration goes down till 11th Imam (at least) without any intervention of a fallible person in between the chain?

 

 

Regards!

Edited by investigating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 am a Non-Muslim seeking to accept Shia version of Islam?

 

Topic: Ten Promised Paradise:

Post # 53

You said:

There is a possibility of war between believers as mentioned in Quran (49:9-10). If someone is fighting a believer doesn't necessarily always make him disbeliever.”

I replied # 54

You replied in Post 55

“Two groups fighting among 'believers' is possible! Whatever you call it as…”

My Post # 58

Your Reply Post 59

my mazhab, going against any one except Prophets doesn't make him DISBELIEVER. I am not talking about Good and Bad believer, right believer or wrong believer. Allah will judge that on the day of judgment, this is none of my concern. Those who adore them have hadiths in favor of them as well.”

 

 

Above interaction, does not indicate I was communication with a Non- Muslim.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Post # 39 Page 2 of this  Topic: Questions From A Relatively New Muslim

I said:

To understand the divine book/religion. Purity of heart is essential. You can't have that, untill you, are  just to the one who gave you what you have today, - Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp)

 

A) Is Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) infallible ?(no sin/error)

 

B )Do you disassociate from the companions /wives who disobeyed, disrespected, and did not follow the commands of the the infallible during and after him?

 

C) Did the infallible compile the Qur'an or  Did the infallible leave the Quran to be complied by fallible? Why?

 

D) Did the infallible announce the successor or did he provide instructions to choose one, or did the infallible left it for the fallible to ruin the religion?

 

Answer the above, if you can’t do justice here, you can’t do justice to any other concept.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

This was not enough for a NON_Muslim to stop this train wreck and reevaluate.?

-------------------------------------------

 

Answer to your question, is that you do have the right to ask question, (freedom of speech). But if you barge into a PhD class for Physics and question the thesis, without explaining and demonstrating that you have enough knowledge to question, it. If under cross examination, it turned out that your knowledge is of high school level. You freedom to speak will be curtailed/disregarded, and rightly so.(time is not wasted)

 

If you do not have the basic building blocks, Tawheed, Adj(Justice) and Prophethood, your understanding of Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) is “unique” you can’t move to the next step of understanding Imamat.

 

My advice to you would be to understand Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) according to the Qur’an and True sunnah(Ahlul Bayt(as) as per Shia belief. You can start a new thread I am sure members will be happy to contribute. Once you have properly understood the Prophet (pbuhahp) according to Shia belief, you can proceed to Imamat according to Shia belief. ( Basic logic)

 

Otherwise you will be spinning your wheels, and that is a waste of your precious time.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Topic: Ten Promised Paradise:

Post # 53

You said:

There is a possibility of war between believers as mentioned in Quran (49:9-10). If someone is fighting a believer doesn't necessarily always make him disbeliever.”

I replied # 54

You replied in Post 55

“Two groups fighting among 'believers' is possible! Whatever you call it as…”

My Post # 58

Your Reply Post 59

my mazhab, going against any one except Prophets doesn't make him DISBELIEVER. I am not talking about Good and Bad believer, right believer or wrong believer. Allah will judge that on the day of judgment, this is none of my concern. Those who adore them have hadiths in favor of them as well.”

 

 

Above interaction, does not indicate I was communication with a Non- Muslim.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Post # 39 Page 2 of this  Topic: Questions From A Relatively New Muslim

I said:

To understand the divine book/religion. Purity of heart is essential. You can't have that, untill you, are  just to the one who gave you what you have today, - Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp)

 

A) Is Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) infallible ?(no sin/error)

 

B )Do you disassociate from the companions /wives who disobeyed, disrespected, and did not follow the commands of the the infallible during and after him?

 

C) Did the infallible compile the Qur'an or  Did the infallible leave the Quran to be complied by fallible? Why?

 

D) Did the infallible announce the successor or did he provide instructions to choose one, or did the infallible left it for the fallible to ruin the religion?

 

Answer the above, if you can’t do justice here, you can’t do justice to any other concept.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

This was not enough for a NON_Muslim to stop this train wreck and reevaluate.?

-------------------------------------------

 

Answer to your question, is that you do have the right to ask question, (freedom of speech). But if you barge into a PhD class for Physics and question the thesis, without explaining and demonstrating that you have enough knowledge to question, it. If under cross examination, it turned out that your knowledge is of high school level. You freedom to speak will be curtailed/disregarded, and rightly so.(time is not wasted)

 

If you do not have the basic building blocks, Tawheed, Adj(Justice) and Prophethood, your understanding of Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) is “unique” you can’t move to the next step of understanding Imamat.

 

My advice to you would be to understand Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) according to the Qur’an and True sunnah(Ahlul Bayt(as) as per Shia belief. You can start a new thread I am sure members will be happy to contribute. Once you have properly understood the Prophet (pbuhahp) according to Shia belief, you can proceed to Imamat according to Shia belief. ( Basic logic)

 

Otherwise you will be spinning your wheels, and that is a waste of your precious time.

 

Again Irrelevant Brother! (Consideration regarding me being Non-Muslim was only based on supposition if only you understood that)

 

 

If you do not have the basic building blocks, Tawheed, Adj(Justice) and Prophethood, your understanding of Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) is “unique” you can’t move to the next step of understanding Imamat.

 

My advice to you would be to understand Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) according to the Qur’an and True sunnah(Ahlul Bayt(as) as per Shia belief. You can start a new thread I am sure members will be happy to contribute. Once you have properly understood the Prophet (pbuhahp) according to Shia belief, you can proceed to Imamat according to Shia belief. ( Basic logic)

 

How can I understand above mentioned theories of Shia Belief without an INFALLIBLE IMAM making me understand that?

 

Do I have to consult fallible ShiaChat members to understand the Shia Belief?

 

Just tell me how to get guidance from an infallible Imam without going through the means of fallible people? None of your above post replies my concern brother based on a supposition that you are talking to a Non-Muslim.

Edited by investigating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again Irrelevant Brother! (Consideration regarding me being Non-Muslim was only based on supposition if only you understood that)

 

 

How can I understand above mentioned theories of Shia Belief without an INFALLIBLE IMAM making me understand that?

 

Do I have to consult fallible ShiaChat members to understand the Shia Belief?

 

Just tell me how to get guidance from an infallible Imam without going through the means of fallible people? None of your above post replies my concern brother based on a supposition that you are talking to a Non-Muslim.

 

Your question, is no different from a Atheist, Atheist will also ask a similar  question about Allah swt. For him to accept religion he has to see Allah swt for him to believe…. How could you be guided by Imam when you don't believe ?

Edited by power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I have been on this forum, I get this feeling, that most of the Majority sect Muslims/supposedly "non muslims" members, don’t want to talk much about the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp), mostly they are interested in Imamat, and all the perceived bidah acts Shia’s supposedly do.

 

 

If you ask them about the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp), you get vague answers, and some have the moral courage to just say irrelevant, and they move on with their topic. Like, nothing happened. If there is a mention of few favorite wives or favourite companions, they come out of the woodwork, like there is an algo running 24/7, emails them come and defend.

 

But the Prophet of Allah(swt) no big deal. I don’t know what mutant strain of Islam is this, but it concerns me that this is what some Muslims have become. This puts into perspective, What happned to Imam Ali(as), daughter of the Prophet(pbuhahp), the Tragedy of Karbala, and events after and the treatment of the grand daughter of the Prophet(pbuhahp)- they just didn’t care about the Prophet (pbuhahp) and his Ahlul Bayt(as).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

“If the religion of Muhammad cannot be saved except by the sacrifice of my head, Then, O swords, come and take it”. Imam Husain(as)

“Over one thousand three hundred and fifty years ago, on the 10th of Muharram, just before 'asr, a man stood on a sand-dune at Karbala’. He was bleeding from several wounds on his body. He had lost everything. Since early morning he had carried several dead bodies into his camp. He had even buried his infant child.

 

He looked at the bodies of his loved ones. Tears flowed out of his eyes. He looked at the sky and seemed to draw some strength from an unseen source. Then, like a muezzin from a minaret, he raised a call:

 

Is there anyone who will come to assist us?

 

Is there anyone who will respond to our call for aid?

 

He turned direction and repeated the call. He did this four times.

 

Whom was he calling out to? Surely he was not expecting anyone to come to his aid. Those who wanted to help him had already crossed the lines and laid down their lives for the cause. He knew there was no one left. He knew that there was no other Hurr. And yet, meticulously and laboriously, he made sure that his call reverberated in all directions.

 

Of course that call was a call to Muslims of every generation in every land. It was a call to us where ever we may be. It was a call for help. Help against Yezeedism which in every age rears its ugly head to oppress justice, truth and morality. Our Imam was calling out to every Muslim of every age and time to combat Yezeedism, both within himself and as an external force.

 

This was his battle cry for jihad-ul-akbar. He had already demonstrated that his objective had always been to create a spiritual awakening through amr bil ma'ruf and nahyi anal munkar. Now he was calling out for the continuation of this jihad at the individual, social and political levels.”

 

“Hal Min Nasirin Yansurna”

"IS THERE ANYONE TO HELP ME"

 

“Labaik Ya Hussain”

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I have been on this forum, I get this feeling, that most of the Majority sect Muslims/supposedly "non muslims" members, don’t want to talk much about the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp), mostly they are interested in Imamat, and all the perceived bidah acts Shia’s supposedly do.

Speaks the guy whose post speaks all about an IMAM!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your question, is no different from a Atheist, Atheist will also ask a similar  question about Allah swt. For him to accept religion he has to see Allah swt for him to believe…. How could you be guided by Imam when you don't believe ?

 

 

So far the best reply from a Shia brother in terms of logical approach!

 

When an atheist is being introduced to Allah (Subhaanahu wata'aala), He is reminded of HIS signs mainly the revelation of Allah (Subhaanahu Wa'ta'aala)...

 

Allah's is NOT visible but HIS revelations are visible and there to recognize HIM and HIS commandments.

 

Prophet Muhammed (saw) was among Kuffars even before he was made to claim his prophethood with all his (as) best virtues and Ikhlaaq to the extent that they used to call him Saadiq & Ameen. He was there between them inviting them towards book of Allah, reminding them of his prophethood & Akhirah. He was himself a talking & living Qur'an. It is then Allah was expecting the Kuffars to enter the fold of Islam. Qur'an was a miracle given to Prophet Muhammed (s) giving them a challenge to produce a single verse like that of Qur'an. It is eloquence of Qur'an, virtues and the best of Ikhlaaq of Prophet and his attitude of forgiving Kuffars even after victory of Makkah compels them to believe and follow Prophet Muhammed (s). People of book namely Jews & Christians used to recognized him (s) the most based on Allah's revelations in Injeel & Torah.

 

Did your 12th Imam left any SIGN of guidance namely tafsir, fiqah OR his deputy (the way Musa (as) left his brother) before he left the Ummah for greater occultation?

 

Again I am repeating my concern:

 

The Shia believe in Imamah and accuse the Ahlus Sunnah of not having a leadership system; well, at the end of the day, they all ended up at the same point. The Shia had no leadership system up until the Iranian Revolution, and the Irani system of “Wilayat ul-Faqih” (the current leadership system in Iran) is nothing but a man-made system in certain scholars do Shurah (mutual consultation) in order to elect a leader for them.

 

However when I see the methodology of Shia brothers to follow Allah & His Rasool (saw), despite of their theory of Imamate which demands the tangible leadership of an infallible at all time to lead Ummah, they are having to rely:

  • Fallible companions of their past Imams.
  • Historical accounts compiled by fallible people.
  • Fallible interpretation of Qur'an made by their Fallible scholars, sometimes attributed to infallible imams BUT through the chain of fallible narrators.
  • Fallible Ayatullahs, Marjaas etc.

If the same course of methodology is adopted by our Shia brothers, then what is the use of doctrine of Imamate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Show me up a single tradition of Shia by Prophet Muhammed (saw) narrated by Ali (ra) then the narration goes down till 11th Imam (at least) without any intervention of a fallible person in between the chain?

 

 

1-You are misunderstood again here. The statement quoted by you means that all the narrations can come through 11th Imam only which is not the case in reality.the others imam have also quoed hadith in their life.

 

The following is quoted for information that the hadith of imams is the hadith of the prophet.

 

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from

‘Umar ibn 'Abd al-‘Aziz from Hisham ibn Salim, Hammed ibn ‘Uthman and others who havesaid the following.

 

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said, ‘My Hadith is the Hadith of my father. The Hadith of my father isthe Hadith of my grandfather. The Hadith of my grandfather is the Hadith of Imam Husayn.The Hadith of Imam al-Husayn is the Hadith of Imam al- Hassan. The Hadith of Imam al-Hassan is the Hadith of Imam Ali (a.s.). The Hadith of Imam Ali is the Hadith of the holyProphet (s.a.) and the Hadith of the holy Prophet is the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious.’"

 

(H 151, Ch. 17, h 14, Alkafi)

 

2. Now i await the hadith from your side to confirm that the hadiths of the prophet coming only through Abu bakr, Umar, Uthamn down to Imam Ali ( 4 caliphs rashidon as per your belief)  to be considered as Sahih according to your own version of islam. How many can you quote such hadith I await.

 

3.In my earlier post no 58 i have quoted questions to verify your understanding on basic principles started from tauheed, adal, Nabuwat and Imammat, as Immamat is not an explicit belief it comes in continuation of the first three believs,  But you are still unable to respond to show that you have basic knowledge of the principles of Isalm. of your own version

  • Fallible companions of their past Imams.
  • Historical accounts compiled by fallible people.
  • Fallible interpretation of Qur'an made by their Fallible scholars, sometimes attributed to infallible imams BUT through the chain of fallible narrators.
  • Fallible Ayatullahs, Marjaas etc.

 

Your these questions have already been replied in my post no 67 sr no 2 to 9. Under sr no, 11 just questions have been asked to verify your understanding of your own version of Islam, Still you have no answer to them and blindly repeating your statement like a kid. I await your reply to these questions.

Edited by skamran110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The following is quoted for information that the hadith of imams is the hadith of the prophet.

 

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from

‘Umar ibn 'Abd al-‘Aziz from Hisham ibn Salim, Hammed ibn ‘Uthman and others who havesaid the following.

 

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said, ‘My Hadith is the Hadith of my father. The Hadith of my father isthe Hadith of my grandfather. The Hadith of my grandfather is the Hadith of Imam Husayn.The Hadith of Imam al-Husayn is the Hadith of Imam al- Hassan. The Hadith of Imam al-Hassan is the Hadith of Imam Ali (a.s.). The Hadith of Imam Ali is the Hadith of the holyProphet (s.a.) and the Hadith of the holy Prophet is the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious.’"

 

(H 151, Ch. 17, h 14, Alkafi)

 

 

Sahl ibn Ziyad is weak!

Please check your rijal books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sahl ibn Ziyad is weak!

Please check your rijal books.

 

we do not have any wrong with the text of the hadith.

The narration quoted from one Imam to the other till the prophet is approved principle.

Edited by skamran110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far the best reply from a Shia brother in terms of logical approach!

 

When an atheist is being introduced to Allah (Subhaanahu wata'aala), He is reminded of HIS signs mainly the revelation of Allah (Subhaanahu Wa'ta'aala)...

 

Allah's is NOT visible but HIS revelations are visible and there to recognize HIM and HIS commandments.

 

Prophet Muhammed (saw) was among Kuffars even before he was made to claim his prophethood with all his (as) best virtues and Ikhlaaq to the extent that they used to call him Saadiq & Ameen. He was there between them inviting them towards book of Allah, reminding them of his prophethood & Akhirah. He was himself a talking & living Qur'an. It is then Allah was expecting the Kuffars to enter the fold of Islam. Qur'an was a miracle given to Prophet Muhammed (s) giving them a challenge to produce a single verse like that of Qur'an. It is eloquence of Qur'an, virtues and the best of Ikhlaaq of Prophet and his attitude of forgiving Kuffars even after victory of Makkah compels them to believe and follow Prophet Muhammed (s). People of book namely Jews & Christians used to recognized him (s) the most based on Allah's revelations in Injeel & Torah.

 

Did your 12th Imam left any SIGN of guidance namely tafsir, fiqah OR his deputy (the way Musa (as) left his brother) before he left the Ummah for greater occultation?

 

 

 

 

You have essentially re-enforced my "logical approach" 

 

Agreed,for anyone to recognise Allah swt, you have to  dwell upon Allah swt creation and his commandments. Now, to recognise or to comprehend 12th Imams, you have to understand Imamaat, if you cannot grasp the core belief of divinely appointed Imams, then you will not understand as to why 12th Imam went to occultation, and how his guidance is perceived.

 

The problem with Sunnis, when it come to 12th imam they want to see him or want guidance from 12th imam. And  without this hardcore evidence they won't accept, regardless as to what information has been put  them, This theme of discussion is what Atheist put forward when discussing the existence of Allah swt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Now, to recognise or to comprehend 12th Imams, you have to understand Imamaat, if you cannot grasp the core belief of divinely appointed Imams, then you will not understand as to why 12th Imam went to occultation, and how his guidance is perceived.

 

Brother what do you think could be the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance of your divinely appointed Imam other than infallible Imam himself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brother what do you think could be the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance of your divinely appointed Imam other than infallible Imam himself?

 

The concept of Mehdi (a.t.f.s)   is shared by both Shia and Sunni sects with the difference of conception. as i mentioned previously to fully utilise the concept of Medhi (a.t.f.s) you have to understand and comprehend Quranic Knowledge and divinely appointed Imams (a.s) in order to seek "True Guidance" All Muslim unanimously agree the fact every belief found in the Quran is an islamic belief and true religion. Islam has  layed down the foundation of guidance of Imam Medhi (a.t.f.s) there are abundance of narration in the Shia Sunni corpus of the awaited Medhi (a.t.f.s)  Moreover, all theological institutes are awaiting for a Messiah to appear, humanity is not  void from this reality

 

 

You ask: the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance

 

I say: we have the book of miracle the Quran, yet humanity cannot perceive this miraculous book!! humanity have failed in understanding in this divine perception! how do you expect to understand guidance when humanity have neglected Allah swt guidance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You ask: the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance

I say: we have the book of miracle the Quran, yet humanity cannot perceive this miraculous book!! humanity have failed in understanding in this divine perception! how do you expect to understand guidance when humanity have neglected Allah swt guidance?

Edited by Wisdom007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You ask: the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance

I say: we have the book of miracle the Quran, yet humanity cannot perceive this miraculous book!! humanity have failed in understanding in this divine perception! how do you expect to understand guidance when humanity have neglected Allah swt guidance?

So the quran and books compiled by fallibles are sufficient for Muslims..brilliant

Edited by power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

So the quran and books compiled by fallibles are sufficient for Muslims..brilliant

 

In the absence of quran complied by Imam Ali as (Infallible) that was according to the revelation order when it was presented then tyrant rulers deny to accept it. This is the reason we have the quran but not according to the revelation order.

 

So your statement means that you do not consider the quran to be divine book of Allah??????

 

Allah says this (quran) we sent and we are its protector.

 

Do you not believe it like other than Muslims?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basmala

Salam

Humbly and with utmost respect,

What seems to be the talking point is the concept of infallibility, but that itself has many interpretations. What do you mean by infalliblity?

Does infalliblity preclude the possibility of illness? Can infallibles succumb to disease? Does infalliblity preclude certain organs from disease? If infallibles ail from genetic mental deficiency, as diagnosed by their clinicians, do they retain infalliblity?

Does infalliblity preclude erroneous judgment, or is every notion fact? Can infallible judgment be derived from indigenous culture? How does *infallibilty* translate into scientific language?

These are some good questions and need to be answered. There is pragmatic infallibilty and legendary infallibilty and they both differ. Whereas pragmatic infallibility is relatable, legendary infallibilty is not. Legends are stories coming down from the past; especially, ones popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable. Based on this, it becomes reasonable to define 'infallibilty' in a clear and relatable way.

It seems what's being said is focusing on the legendary sense of infallibilty and this is fruitless. Think about it.

“Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob?”

“But of this they have no knowledge,

And merely follow surmise,

Though surmise avails nothing when compared to truth.”

Edited by Say: I AM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Humbly and with utmost respect,

It seems you are talking about legend. Thanks for responding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@skamran110

Brother, I realized that ignoring your posts were rude on my part for which I apologize you from the bottom of my heart.

 

The reason of ignoring your post was because you started countering questions based on your own perception of Sunni version of Islam which has no comparison or contrast with the Shia version of Islam being discussed about. To stop that countering I imposed on you a supposition of considering me a Non-Muslim asking you about Shia guidance function of Imamate and you could not explain anything to me under that supposition.

 

 

No one is trying anybody to change his belief nor any Shia is inviting any non muslin to become Shi it’s a misconception. The objective is to share view in the light of Quran, hadith And sayings of   Ahl albayt as,.

 

 

Do you think you and Shia brother are eligible enough to share their “Fallible View” in the light of Qur’an, Hadith & saying of Ahl alBayt without the permission of your Infallible Imam?

 

 

The religion ie islam stands only, because of believers we follow that it has been revealed by Allah swt and protected by him (as quoted in the verse of Quran). So it is matter of belief that keeps us on the faith.

 

 

Who told you that the book which is called Qur’an (the book of Allah) is actually the book of Allah? Unless the claim is corroborated by an Infallible himself? Just because the majority of the people on the face of this earth considers it “Qur’an” makes it “Qur’an – The book of Allah”? Did your present infallible Imam come in your dream telling that you it is the book of Allah and NOT “Saheefa-e-Usmani”? What if being a Shia, I say that Allah’s promise is for the protection of Qur’an and NOT for the “Saheefa-e-Usmani”? How would you counter me?

 

 

The sayings of the prophets are written down not by the prophet himself, as the prophet has to obey in all the circumstances, the hadith are to be verified in the light of Quran and if found against Quran are rejected.  The same principle is applied to follow the prophet. This is belief of believers.

 

 

When Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was alive, he was himself a talking & living “QUR’AN & HADITH”. He was a practical demonstration of Qur’an & Sunnah so there was no need for Sahabah to consult any compiled book. Can you imagine Muslims not consulting to the living Qur’an and Hadith (i.e. Prophet (pbuh) when he was alive) but instead compiling their own books and following them as per their own understanding? Would that make sense to you?

 

Why Shia brothers found a need to consult the books compiled by fallible human beings & NOT their INFALLIBLE IMAMS of their respective time-period who are supposed to be the talking & living demonstration of Qur’an & Sunnah?

 

If the guidance function of Imamate demands that there would be a talking & living Qur’an PRESENT (infallible imam) till Qayamah after Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) then what is the use of books and traditions compiled by fallible personalities?

 

 

-The sayings of Ahl albayt on the same principle are applied to be followed. If we follow the Quran as it is words of Allah and protected by him then those who are not separated by the Quran are also protected. The verse of purifications makes it clear. The same way applies to follow the sayings of the Ahl albayt as it is the belief of believers.

 

 

Brother you will yourself disagree with your point which I assume you made in hurry for the sake of explaining me (with an intention to guide me)…

 

Are you sure whatever is attributed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and AhlelBayt (as) are protected like the verses of Qur’an TODAY even IF the MEANS are fallible?

 

 

The Shia are not divded into sects 12er still follow 12 imams that you quote in many posts yourself. However I also find sunni divided on the basis of Imams like Hanbali, Shafi, Malki, Hanfi even the all claims to be the followers of 4 caliphs. They just stop at four against the prophet saying of 12 caliphs from their own sources. In history the count of such caliphs is unlimited from the 1st caliph to the King Abdullah, and others???

 

 

Brother… Please ask any knowledgeable Shia brothers here, I’d just suggest the Admin (Insha’Allah) and see if he agrees that your question holds even a slightest of weight as a counter against Sunni Muslims?

 

Brother in Sunni version of Islam, the only divinely appointed positions are: i) Prophethood (Nabuwwah) ii) Messengership (Risaalah) which were sealed after Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). When Sunni call someone an Imam, they don’t mean to attach any divine status but in general perspective of a “Pioneer/Leader/Someone to be followed”… Its a general connotation, the status of which changes from person to person.

                                                                                                                    

  1. Imam (To be followed) as a Prophet
  2. Imam (Pioneer/Leader/To be followed) in a matter of faith & sacrifice as Ibrahim (as).
  3. Imam (To be followed) in congregational Salah.
  4. Imam (To be followed) in matters of Fiqah.
  5. Imam (To be followed) in matters of Tafsir
  6. Imam (Leader/Pioneer) Hassan/Hussain (ra) as a the SHEIKHS of the Youth in Jannah

 

So your comparison of Sunni version of Imams of school of thought doesn’t have any comparison or contrast with Shia Infallible Imams. If one differs with the interpretation of Imam Shafaai (may Allah have mercy on Him) in matter of Fiqah, there is no sin on him to adopt any other school of thought namely Hanafiyah, Maliki and Hambili (may Allah have mercy on their Imams).

 

However, Imamiyah Sect is divided on the basis of their article of faith of Imam. The Bohris, Ismailis, Zaidiyah etc. all have different list of Imams among the progeny of Prophet based on their version of Hadiths taken from their list of Imams. And according to Shia faith, rejecting imamate of divinely appointment Imam is as equal to rejecting the prophethood of any divinely appointed Prophet of Allah.

 

That’s the reason I told you that:

 

I have been convinced by my Shia brothers to become a Shia because of Hadith of Thaqlain, verse of Wilayah and verse of Ghadeer, verse of Purification, HOWEVER:

 

i) All Shia sects believe in above instances yet they are divided based on their list of version of Imams.

 

ii) Sunni school of thought interprets them in a way that it doesn't convince them to revise their list of fundamental article of faith and add a new article of faith of Imamah as a 12er Shia holds. Moreover, Sunni school of thought suggests that the Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imams were on the Creed of Ahlesunnah wal Jama’ah.

 

How the Hadith on virtues of Ali, Thaqlain, Ghadeer and purification could be the source of Hujjah for Muslim to become 12er Shia based on the above two points regardless of the validity of the claim?

 


Therefore I said I'd only consider Shia theory of Imamate to be true IF:

 

i) Either Qur'an was enough and direct about the Dogma of Shia Imams commanding me to wait for my current Imam and giving me the criteria to: "How to follow AhlelBayt without the presence of my current Imam" without any addition of commentary, tafsir or tradition narrated by fallible.

 

ii) OR There must be tangible infallible Imam present to lead the Ummah, convincing us to believe in HIS divine status based on his extra ordinary skills, divine efficiency and HIS extra ordinary knowledge of the book of Allah & Hadith. The way you (being a fallible) interpret the Sunni version of Qur'an and Hadith (both narrated from fallible humans) to prove Shia Imamah will have no consideration for me unless done by Infallible Himself to establish the foundation of Islam.

 

 

 

1-You are misunderstood again here. The statement quoted by you means that all the narrations can come through 11th Imam only which is not the case in reality.the others imam have also quoed hadith in their life.

The following is quoted for information that the hadith of imams is the hadith of the prophet.

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from

‘Umar ibn 'Abd al-‘Aziz from Hisham ibn Salim, Hammed ibn ‘Uthman and others who havesaid the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said, ‘My Hadith is the Hadith of my father. The Hadith of my father isthe Hadith of my grandfather. The Hadith of my grandfather is the Hadith of Imam Husayn.The Hadith of Imam al-Husayn is the Hadith of Imam al- Hassan. The Hadith of Imam al-Hassan is the Hadith of Imam Ali (a.s.). The Hadith of Imam Ali is the Hadith of the holyProphet (s.a.) and the Hadith of the holy Prophet is the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious.’"

(H 151, Ch. 17, h 14, Alkafi)

 

 

 

Do you even realize why I asked you Hadith where all the chain narrators could be infallible imams?

 

I did not object if Hadith of Imam Jafar is finally the word of Allah like a Prophet taking the Shia doctrine of Imamate to be in consideration. But if such hadith is narrated by fallible personalities, the same pattern of which is followed in Sunni version of Hadith, what difference does it hold against them?

 

Sunni version of Islam relies on companions of the prophet and their chain of students for the Hadith of the best of Infallibles (Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)) which is objected by Shia brothers as a FALLIBLE MEAN to approach an INFALLIBLE. However I find the same case with respect to the Shia narrations? Why would that case convince me to leave my sect where there is no application of the claim made by Shias as per Imamate doctrine?

 

Why do we need a narration from fallible personalities when there are always a living Imam guiding people directly as per Shia faith of Imamate?

Edited by investigating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You ask: the best source of guidance to make more than 99% of humanity perceive the mode of guidance

 

I say: we have the book of miracle the Quran, yet humanity cannot perceive this miraculous book!! humanity have failed in understanding in this divine perception! how do you expect to understand guidance when humanity have neglected Allah swt guidance?

 

 

How could Humanity perceive the guidance of book of Allah without the infallible teacher (Imam)?

 

Considering the Shia doctrine of Imamate where there always a living Imam guiding people directly:

 

Unless the book which is called "Qur'an" is not confirmed by infallible Imam to be the book of Allah, how could someone be assured of it just on the basis that fallible human beings on earth consider it "The book of Allah"?

 

Did the current Imam of Shia give confirmation of the book which we have now called as "Qur'an" to be the book of Allah TO YOU?

 

What did he leave for its interpretation for mankind? Its is the Qur'an (as per my interpretation) that stops me to believe in Doctrine of Imamate BEING TOO VAGUE?

Edited by investigating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Humbly and with utmost respect,

It seems you are talking about legend. Thanks for responding.

 

Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya on page #256 under chapter III, ‘Revelation’ in his book ‘The Essence of The Holy Qur’an’( the Eternal Light) writes:

 

"The Infallibility of the Last Prophet (The Prophet of Islam)

And Other Prophets (Part I)"

 

“Therefore , unless the soul (mind and heart) is free from the influence of this lowest sphere, and is released from the narrow bents of animal instincts and sexual desire and unless the mind is raised to the zenith of creative intellect, it cannot become the ground for receiving the entire light, i.e, the exact and undisturbed information and suggestion dispatched from the angelical sphere of higher order. The angelical spheres range from the first immaterial sphere to the highest spheres of direct and immediate communion with Absolute ( the stage of the nearest point): the Prophet, as the Qur’an indicates reached the ‘nearest point’

 

Holy Qur’an: An-Najim (The Star):v 9[53:9] Till he was (distant) two bows' length or even nearer,

 

These spheres differ from each other in comprehensiveness and in the nature of their dispatches, but there is no possibility of error in whatever the dispatch.’They do not disobey God of what He has ordered them and they do whatever they are ordered. They do not go ahead of Him in saying (or doing) and they do according to His order.

 

Holy Qur’an: At-Tahrim (The Prohibition):v 6[Pickthal 66:6] O ye who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire whereof the fuel is men and stones, over which are set angels strong, severe, who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded.

 

There is no confusion whatsoever in the higher spheres. They are free from all profaneness of the material world.

 

Holy Qur’an: Abasa (He Froned): v 13-16: [

80:13] On honoured leaves

80:14] Exalted, purified,

80:15] (Set down) by scribes

80:16] Noble and righteous.

 

So, also must be the receiving station, the human mind which is the recipient. It must be free from the impediments of temporal life and the bondage of the material world. So long as the zenith of the human mind, the intellect, is drawn toward its base, the material and sensual ground, man is liable to commit mistakes in both theory and practice, whatever may be the source of information and suggestion.

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-A’araaf (The Heights):v 175-176

 

[Pickthal 7:175] Recite unto them the tale of him to whom We gave Our revelations, but he sloughed them off, so Satan overtook him and he became of those who lead astray.

[Pickthal 7:176] And had We willed We could have raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his own lust. Therefor his likeness is as the likeness of a dog: if thou attackest him he panteth with his tongue out, and if thou leavest him he panteth with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of the people who deny Our revelations. Narrate unto them the history (of the men of old), that haply they may take thought.

 

Being in possession of signs man should have been raised. But he detached himself from the sign bestowed on him by God and he was drawn downward toward the earth. But if he the whole edifice of the human mind from the base upward is drawn toward the zenith, i.e, the active intellect, and is totally controlled by it, then the zenith can become a pure refined recipient ground. It becomes capable of receiving light from the above as exactly as it is dispatched. It will be also capable of judging precisely the truth and the value of what is received from below. In short, the pure contents of the worlds of purity cannot be reached but by the pure and purified minds.

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-Waaqia (The Inevitable):v.75-79

56:75] Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -

56:76] And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew -

56:77] That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an

56:78] In a Book kept hidden

56:79] Which none toucheth save the purified,

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-Bayyina (The Evidence):v.1-3

[98:1] Those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters could not have left off (erring) till the clear proof came unto them,

[ 98:2] A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages

[98:3] Containing correct scriptures.

 

In essence, no one touches it but those who are purified. To establish direct and infallible connect with the heavenly kingdom and the spheres beyond the material one, the mind should be completely refined and free from the fetters of this material world.

 

This is what Qur’an means by the term ‘MUTTAHRUN’, Purified ones, ‘SUHAFAN MUTTAHIRA’, Purified books, ‘MUSTAFAUN, Chosen and refined, and ‘MUKHLISIN, Servents of God freed from sinning.

 

Holy Qur’an: SAAD (The Letter ‘Saad’): V. 46-47,83

[38:46] Lo! We purified them with a pure thought, remembrance of the Home (of the Hereafter).

[38:47] Lo! in Our sight they are verily of the elect, the excellent.

[38:83] Save Thy single-minded slaves among them.

 

‘We have freed, released them from all concerns but the remembrance of the abode (the heavenly or eternal kingdom).’

 

It does not mean that they are not in this material world in this lowest sphere. They are in it but they are not attached to it.’Ali says, ‘They (the true servents of God) have accompanied this lowest world of matter with their bodies, the souls of which are attached to the spheres of higher order. Had not the fixed term been ordained by God for them (to remain here), their souls would not have remained in their bodies.(15)

 

In other words, the purity of mind as opposed to its impurity (Rijis). It means complete control of the active intellect over the whole structure of mind including its material base on the one hand, and absolute submission of the active intellect as recipient ground to the spheres of higher order on the other. This is the state of divine revelation.

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-An’aam (The Cattle):v 50

[ 6:50] Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the Unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me. Say: Are the blind man and the seer equal? Will ye not then take thought?

 

The Holy Prophet’s answer to all the questions raised by anyone: the believers, unbelievers, sceptics, heretics, hypocrites, friends and foe was a divine revelation to unveil the truth.

 

Thus, the body is controlled and governed by the mind and its faculties. The mind in turn is controlled and governed by the active intellect, which in turn is fully controlled and governed by the divine will dispatched to it, direct, or through the angels. Such an accomplished person, though he shares, with other men all aspects of humanity ( a human being like you), yet he is distinguished from the rest of mankind, by not only being the recipient of the revelation (16) (I FOLLOW NOTHING BUT WHAT IS REVEALED TO ME.’)

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-Kahf (The Cave): v.110[Pickthal 18:110] Say: I am only a mortal like you. My Lord inspireth in me that your Allah is only One Allah. And whoever hopeth for the meeting with his Lord, let him do righteous work, and make none sharer of the worship due unto his Lord.

 

He should be so fully controlled by the divine will dispatched to him, that his life becomes the embodiment of divine will. His will is the will of God.

 

Holy Qur’an: An-Nisa (The Women):v.110

[ 18:110] Say: I am only a mortal like you. My Lord inspireth in me that your Allah is only One Allah. And whoever hopeth for the meeting with his Lord, let him do righteous work, and make none sharer of the worship due unto his Lord.

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-Anfaal (The Spoils of War): v.17

[ 8:17] Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

 

So, to secure the infallibility of the message the purity and infallibility of both the sources of dispatch, and the receiving mind, is necessary. With regard to the purity of the dispatching side, from God down to the last angelical sphere at its base, there can be no doubt. The question is about the purity of the receiving side—the receiver which is the active intellect, the zenith of the mind. The zenith cannot be pure unless the whole of the mind and its faculties from the base are pure. The purity of mind and its faculties mean harmonious functioning of all the physical and physical parts of mental mechanism towards actualization of the potential intellect and the development of the active intellect. There should be nothing wrong anywhere, even for a moment, in the progressive movement towards attaining the state of active intellect. Every part of the mechanism should be perfect. Otherwise any drawback anywhere at any stage of the process would mean a fall in the degree of attainment and in the active aspect of the intellect; a fall in the height of the zenith. In other words the ego should always be alive to its incessant needs and should always look upwards submissively and ask for help.”

 

On page # 269 he further explains:

 

”But keeping in mind what has already been explained in light of the Qur’an and sound reasoning, One has to come to the conclusion that WITHOUT PURITY AND INFALLIBILITY OF THE RECEiVING GROUND, NO REVELATION CAN BE TAKEN AS COMPLETELY RIGHT AND DIVINE IF NO MARGIN CAN BE FIXED FOR THE DIVINE AND THE PROFANE STATES OF THE RECEiVING MIND, AND AS SUCH THE REPRESENTATIVE STATUS OF THE PROPHET AND VICEGERENTS OF GOD WOULD BE SHAKEN TO THE GROUND”

 

On page #281:

 

“Here the first man, the top entity in the arc of ascent received knowledge directly from God, of the things which the angels did not know. It was the knowledge of the names of certain conscious entities of high order (‘aleen). Those entities were other than angels and jinns. They were the entities whose names could be made known to Adam, by God directly and the angles and the other being of lower order through the medium of Adam. They were those who could at one and the same time represent God in all spheres of creation, and creatures of all spheres before God. They are the entities who due to the highest degree of their recipiency, submissiveness and devotion to the Absolute, have attained the nearest possible stage of direct communion with Him on one side, and due to their utmost paternal affection and love of His creatures have come closer and nearer to every being, than the being itself or himself—a stage of ‘AULA-BIL-MOMININ, ‘A GREATER CLAIM ON THE SELVES OF THE BELIEVERS, ‘ which refers to the Prophet:

 

Holy Qur’an: Al-Ahzaab (The Clans):v.6[ 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature).”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Asalam Alaikum,

first of all, we will start with the 1st Imam a.s

1.he was born in the holy Ka'abah

2. he was the first muslim

3. he was married to the prophet's PBUH daughter and was his cousin

4. he fought alongside the prophet PBUH when everyone else would turn their backs on him.

5. he would feed the poor and the hungry even if he went hungry himself.

there are many, many reasons.

 now Imam Hussein a.s

1. he dies for the Sake of Allah swt and Islam

2. he died to keep truth

3. he was the grandson of the Prophet PBUH

4. he stood against oppression

5. he gave all of humanity hope

the list would go on.

 

both of them were patient.

others say we worship them.

we worship only He who deserves to be worshipped and that is Allah swt.

if nothing else we should all remember that they grew up in the house of the Prophet and in the folds of Islam.

it was them that were with the prophet PBUH in his last momments, not his "great" companions, not Abu Bakr or Uthma.

Abu Bakr declared himself as the Caliph when the prophet PBUH wasn't even buried yet.

 

hope that helped you

Salam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How could Humanity perceive the guidance of book of Allah without the infallible teacher (Imam)?

 

Considering the Shia doctrine of Imamate where there always a living Imam guiding people directly:

 

Unless the book which is called "Qur'an" is not confirmed by infallible Imam to be the book of Allah, how could someone be assured of it just on the basis that fallible human beings on earth consider it "The book of Allah"?

 

Did the current Imam of Shia give confirmation of the book which we have now called as "Qur'an" to be the book of Allah TO YOU?

 

What did he leave for its interpretation for mankind? Its is the Qur'an (as per my interpretation) that stops me to believe in Doctrine of Imamate BEING TOO VAGUE?

 

 

Brother Investigating, firstly, it is incumbent upon humanity to seek out the "Truth" Allah swt has given us Aql that we humans should apply! How could humanity can become callers of Allah swt without being fully equipped and qualified to call him? How could  you expect a Christian to understand or believe in Islam,  When you have  propagandist against  Islam saying, Islam is religion  OF violence and terrorism! How are Sunnis suppose to understand Al Medhi (a.s) when they are constantly told that Shis'm is Religion of shirk and deviation? Allah swt has clearly said: Surah 29:69  As for those who strive in us We surly guide them to our paths, and Lo! Allah is with the good.

 

Allah swt  is clearly telling us  he will  guide those who "STRUGGLE" to to be guided! 

 

My question to you: do you see "MAJORITY OF HUMANITY STRUGGLE IN Allah CAUSE"?

 

Surah6 :56 If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess. 

I have deliberately  selected the above verse specifically for you alone, as you keep on stating THE MAJORITY OF MAIN STREAM SCHOLARS DONT AGREE WITH SHIS'M

which i quite honestly find comforting when you say this, Knowing that you are trying pose the majority view upon us, Seeming that your ideological points of view is based upon "Majority"  which Allah swt totally rejects!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Power I can not see my question addressed/answered.

 

Unless the book which is called "Qur'an" is not confirmed by infallible Imam to be the book of Allah, how could someone be assured of it just on the basis that fallible human beings on earth consider it "The book of Allah"?

 

 

How could  you expect a Christian to understand or believe in Islam,  When you have  propagandist against  Islam saying, Islam is religion  OF violence and terrorism! How are Sunnis suppose to understand Al Medhi (a.s) when they are constantly told that Shis'm is Religion of shirk and deviation?

 

Christians are expected to believe in Islam based on supposed revelation of Allah (i.e. Qur'an). Qur'an is there to clarify their misconceptions of Islam.

 

Who would better in clarifying the misconceptions of Sunni against Shia'ism than your Infallible Imam?

 

Sunni Muslims are expected to believe in Shia'ism based on doctrine of Imamate (the only core difference in contrast) which is not EXPLICITLY mentioned in Qur'an (the supposed book of Allah) like Prophethood/Messengership

 

AND MOREOVER:

 

The application/objective of the doctrine of Imamate doen't SEEM FULFILLED => which states that there has to be a divine leader till doomsday to lead mankind acting as "Living & Talking Qur'an"...

 

 

Allah swt has clearly said: Surah 29:69  As for those who strive in us We surly guide them to our paths, and Lo! Allah is with the good.

 

Allah swt  is clearly telling us  he will  guide those who "STRUGGLE" to to be guided!

 

Alright based on the above verse of Qur'an, there is no need of a direct guidance of infallible Imam. Anyone struggling in Allah's path (as per their interpretations) will be guided directly by Allah... Case solved right?

 

Are you eligible enough to present me the verse of Qur'an without the permission of your Infallible Imam telling me how to get guidance?

 

 

My question to you: do you see "MAJORITY OF HUMANITY STRUGGLE IN Allah CAUSE"?

 

Surah6 :56 If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess.

 

I never said "majority of the Human beings" ... All the mainstream Muslims are still in minority (1.5 out of 5 billion).

 

Now let me ask you:

 

Who should I obey?

Why should I obey the one you recommend?

How should I obey the one you recommend?

 

Regards,

JazakAllah

Edited by investigating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

In order to have a meaningful conversation and avoid any confusion, answer the following question in order and in its entirety, as they are related to your current  creed.

La illah ila Allah Muhammad Rasul Allah

 

1 ) Are you a Muslims (Y/N)

2) Four school of sunni thoughts: Which one- if none of the four - which one-name will suffice.

3) Are you a Quranist?(Y/N)

 

4) Is Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp): Infallible (no error/no sin/no mistake): (Y/N)

      If no, explain your understanding.

 

5) Was the Quran compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp): (Y/N)

    5a) If No why not and when was it compiled and by whom?

 

6) Did the Prophet Muhammad(pbhahp) announce a successor:(Y/N)

  6a) If no, did he gave direction as to which method should be used to select one:(Y/N)

   If 6a is yes, which method.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You want guidance from the imam (as) directly? Go on a journey to najaf idealy, leave everything behind. You will definitely find the imam (as). Do what Hazrat salam Farsi ® did. If you cant do that, go to his representatives who may be in contact with the imam (as).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 This should answer some basic questions.

 

  • Nubuwwat - (Prophethood) - Belief in the Prophets (PBUT) of God who excel all other persons for whom they are sent for. All prophets of Allah are perfect and sinless (ma'soom). Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (PBUH&HF) is the last of the prophets sent by God and the sealer of prophets for NO more are to come, EVER! The total number of prophets (PBUT) that were sent by God to mankind is 124,000 and every nation on earth was given guidance through them. In fact, all major religions today on earth can be traced to have these divinely guided teachers as their original propagators of the Truth of Allah. The best of His messengers all came from the same tree i.e. family lineage and many of them are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an which describes who they were and what their mission on earth was. It is important to note that no prophet on earth ever negated or rejected any of the other divinely ordained prophets and thus their message was always the same and one in purpose. Each established the law of the One and Only God and showed the way of life for humans to observe. From the very first creation of mankind, there was always a prophet on earth which was Prophet Adam (pbuh). This guidance from the Merciful Allah to establish His complete laws continued to the last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) who exemplified the letters of the law in his most perfect behavior. He completed and perfected the one and only True religion, Islam. With the revelation of the last Holy Book, the Qur'an, which is the most protected and perfect book of God with us, he established as part of his mission, every concievable and practical law for mankind to follow in order to attain spiritual perfection. Great prophets such as Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Dawood (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Musa (Moses), Yahya (John), and Isa (Jesus), - (Peace be upon them all) - all came from the one blessed lineage of Prophet Adam (pbuh) and ended with the last Messenger, Muhammad (PBUH&HF). It is also important to note that anyone who ascribes imperfections or mistakes to these divinely guided personalities is ascribing it directly to Allah who is certainly free from such. Acceptance of such ideas is also rejection of the message of Allah entirely. Thus with prophethood, a believer has to accept in their complete message without any reservations of possible errors or mistakes.
  •  
  • Imamat - (Guidance) - Belief in the divinely appointed leadership after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) to protect and guide mankind with the revealed Truth, the Holy Qur'an and the true practices of the Holy Prophet himself. The roles of these leaders is an integral part in the protection of all the Messengers and their divine Messages. The Almighty Allah appointed through the Holy Prophet himself, twelve Guides (Imams) to protect mankind from misrepresenting and misinterpreting the Truth. Belief in this is most important in Islam and no doubts about their positions should be allowed. They are indeed sinless (ma'soom) and perfect in the highest sense of the word. The Imams have direct knowledge from God, and their verdict is the verdict of God. After the Holy Prophet, only they can interpret and guide mankind in every aspect of life and death and all believers must acquire guidance from them or else they will certainly be lost. They do NOT bring any new laws nor do they ever innovate their own laws. They always exempliy and elucidate the practical (Sunnah) and the written (the Holy Qur'an). It is also important to note that they NEVER disagree with each other in their manners and duties nor in their representations of the Divine Laws. They are from the best and the most blessed and purified lineage of the last Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUT) and their names are as follows: (1) Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Holy Prophet who called him his only brother in this world and in the next, (2) Imam Hasan son of Ali, (3) Imam Husain son of Ali, (4) Imam Ali son of Husain, (5) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (6) Imam Ja'far son of Muhammad, (7) Imam Musa son of Ja'far, (8) Imam Ali son of Musa, (9) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (10) Imam Ali son of Muhammad, (11) Imam Hasan son of Ali, and the last and living Imam Muhammad son of Hasan, the establisher of the Truth till the end of this world (PBUT). There is no successor to the Twelfth Holy Imam Muhammad ibnul Hassan (pbuh) and he is LIVING today but is in occultation and appears only to those who are most in need and to those who are most virtuous and pious. By the Command of Allah, he will reappear to all when he will establish true justice on earth and will rule mankind compassionately with utmost perfection as is the Will of the Almighty Allah. He will abolish the evil establishments on earth and mankind will live under true guidance as should have been many centuries ago! 

http://www.shia.org/fundamental.html

 

"Then, during the period of the Lesser Occultation (al-ghaybatu 's-sughra) of the Twelfth Imam, he himself successively appointed four representatives1 who acted as the link between the Imam and his Shi'ahs. However, when the present Imam, peace be upon him, went into his Greater Occultation (al-ghaybatu 'l-kubra) in 329/941 in obedience to Allah's command, the Shi'ah were obliged to observe taqlid in their religious affairs."

 

 

----------------------

Taqlid 

"

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

 

    i) The man concerned should be a Mujtahid (jurist)1 himself and should know the Articles of Acts on the basis of Ijtihad2 and reason (i.e. he should be a man of such high learning and scholarship that he can solve problems from his study of the Qur’an and Hadith).

 

    ii) If he is not a jurist himself, he should follow a jurist i.e. he should act according to the judgment (fatwa) of the jurist without demanding proof.

 

    iii) If he is neither a jurist nor a follower (muqallid) he should act after taking such precaution that he should become sure of his having performed his religious duty. For example, if some jurists consider an act to be unlawful and some others say that it is not unlawful, he should not perform that act and in case some jurists consider an act to be obligatory (wajib) and others consider it to be recommended (mustahab) he should perform it. Hence it is obligatory for those persons who are not jurists and cannot also take precautionary measures (ihtiyat) to follow a jurist.3

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Power I can not see my question addressed/answered.

 

Unless the book which is called "Qur'an" is not confirmed by infallible Imam to be the book of Allah, how could someone be assured of it just on the basis that fallible human beings on earth consider it "The book of Allah"?

 

 

 

 

Brother Investigating, i had deliberately  considered  that engaging in such discussion would be pointless exercise., In addition,  there was no point of reference or Shia narration from yourself 

furthermore,   I felt  that you  had posed a negative statement,  about the Holy Quran and the Imams of Ahlul bayt (a.s) This notion that: the Holy Quran requires a declaration  from the Holy Imams (a.s) is a misconception….. There is no such manuscripts that exits in the  Shia creed  which Shia believe to be true. Unless you can provide authentic narration from the Imams of Ahlul bayt a.s.?  Brother Investigating, you must understand people are free to chose the path they want to chose, it is not incumbent upon Shia to force Imammate down people's throat or try to "Proselytise' any individual. Brother, one of the fundamental truths established by the religious text, Islam has given the Ummaah a choice to believe or to reject,  they are not compelled to accept "DIVINELY APPOINTED IMAMS"  our only duty is to continue the message which Rasulillah had proclaimed throughout his mission… The  truth has  to be made clear from falsehood . And Alhamdulillah through passage of time the Imams of Ahlul bayt a.s have taught the truth from falsehood. Furthermore, history is testimony along with Mutawatir  Hadiths from Shia and Sunni  source that, Imams of Ahlul  bayt a.s " where firmly rooted in knowledge" which Sunni also accept this unequivocally.  Furthermore, i can state that:  Imam Ali had compiled the Quran with complete commentary after the demise of Rasulillah  Imam Ali a.s had  then  presented this copy to the Caliphs which they rejected,  this copy was then handed down to the Imams of Ahlul bayt a.s However, i do reject Sunni version of compilation of the Holy Quran, There appears to be many contradictory Hadith is Sunni hadith collection.

 

Here are some examples:

 

 

Sahih Burkhari

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 374: 

Narrated Anas bin Malik: 

That he heard 'Umar speaking while standing on the pulpit of the Prophet in the morning (following the death of the Prophet), when the people had sworn allegiance to Abu Bakr. He said the Tashah-hud before Abu Bakr, and said, "Amma Ba'du (then after) Allah has chosen for his Apostle what is with Him (Paradise) rather than what is with you (the world). This is that Book (Quran) with which Allah guided your Apostle, so stick to it, for then you will be guided on the right path as Allah guided His Apostle with it."

 

The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr until Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar until Allah took him unto Him and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umars daughter. (Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6 book 60, Number201)

 

 

Abu Dawud: Masahif, p 14 Ansari, M.: The Qur'anic Foundations and Structure of Muslim Society; Karachi, 1973, drawing upon various sources, says that there existed at least 15 written copies of the Qur'an in the Prophet's lifetime. In addition to the list of 15 names quoted above, he includes Abu Bakr, 'Uthman, Mu'adh b. Jabal, Abu Darda', Abu Ayyub Ansari, 'Ubada b. al-Samit, Tamim Dari. This would add up to 23 written copies of the Qur'an, which existed while the Prophet was alive.

 

SO THERE EXIT WITHIN SUNNI HADITHS AND LITERATURE A MAJOR FALLACY IN COMPILATION OF THE QURAN IN A BOOK FORM!

 

 

Brother, as you can find misconception in Shia faith, then i also can  present "Fallacy"in  Sunni creed. If you do understand the basic flaws in your own belief , it show intellectual impropriety to accuse others of exaggeration and invention…

 

Moreover, at least in Shia Islam the concept of leadership has been pivotal in Shia Islam ,its the only religion which has adhered to the concept of 12 imams which was proclaimed by Rasulillah.  Sunnis cannot say the Shia have exaggerated this concept!  because  Sunnis  themselves  try to assert this concept  into their  ideology but fail quite drastically! Because on one hand the Sunnis will say: Rasulillah had not mentioned anything regarding  leadership While on the other hand they will say: Rasulillah had stated: Follow my 4 righty guided Caliphs! So which is it ? Did Rasulillah proclaim such matter on leadership? 

 

Leaders of mankind are only appointed by Allah swt and guided by Allah swt , Allah swt did not leave mankind to chose its own leader. Unless you can prove otherwise from the Quran.

 

 

The prophets of the people of the book are all descended from one family preferred above all others and appointed leaders fro mankind . Leaders has always been descendant  from Prophets, or chosen by Allah swt

 

Only the pure are allowed to lead; The impure are not granted the authority even the holy prophet is not to obey a sinner There has never been impure person who has a succeeded after a Masoomeen accordion g to the Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...