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truthandjustice

Questions From A Relatively New Muslim

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I would first like to say, imamate is without a doubt a defined concept in the quran. It is undeniable. Saying it does not exist because it is not literally put in the quran is a logical fallacy. For one, the quran is not a literal book, two, it does not have to state it to make something authoritative, and three, authority of Muhammad A.S is clear in the quran through hadith. If you are willing to argue lets not use fallacious arguments like "Either...Or..", its a waste of time.

 

 


i) Provide my any verse of Qur'an that orders the believers to believe in Imams (who are non-prophets) same as Allah commands the believers to believe in prophets as criteria of salvation.

 

 

This is a logical fallacy. You would have to prove Imamate and Prophethood cannot be together. Otherwise, it is completely reasonable and logically that an Prophet can also become an Imam. I will just provide a few verses indicating that Imamte clearly exists. There are countless sunni tafsir that prove the position of Ali A.S regarding the revelation of such verses, and other hadith, but if you would like to see those go to Al-Hadi.us

 

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end (4:59).

 

This verse obliges the Muslims to two obediences: First, the obedience of Allah; second, the obedience of the Apostle and 'those vested with authority from among you' (uli'l-amri minkum). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of ulu 'l-amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Apostle. Naturally, it means that ulu 'l-amr should be of the same caliber as the Apostle; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse. IT clearly cannot be any person, companion, or caliph because Allah states:

. . . and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one (76:26).  This Ulul Amr, is divinely chosen and commanded, thus it must be Imams A.S. It cannot be any fallible being, for they all sin, and we cannot obey sinners.

 

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam (Imam is explicitly used in the verse) for mankind.”(Qur’an 2:124).

 

This not only proves imamate does exist, but also that it can be only chosen by divine authority, not fallible man.

 

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Qur’an 5:55-56)

 

Who is this "Master" (Wali) who gave charity while they bowed? There is only one person in history this verse is referring to an that is Imam Ali A.S, and remember, we cannot obey sinners so it cannot be any fallible being.

 

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve; (21:73)

 

"We have made them Imams inviting to Hell". (al-Qasas, 28 41)

There are even Imams whom people choose to take other than the ones whom Allah has commanded, of which will take them to hell. Allah here is not saying He made evil, it is absolutely impossible and illogical. What Allah is referring to here is saying Allah has given mankind free will, therefore allowing man to disobey God and take imams whom they, fallible beings, choose.

 

It is Allah’s wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (Qur’an 33:33)

 

Say, I ask no reward from you for it except the love of my kinsfolk. And whosoever does a good deed we add unto it a greater good for him. Lo, Allah is Forgiving, Responsive. (Qur’an 42:23)

 

Allah is commanded Muhammad A.S to tell his companions to love his family, why? Clearly because verse 33:33 proves their status.

 

(O Prophet) Lo! thou art a warner and for every community there is a guide. (Qur’an 13:7)

 

This is evident that there will always exist a guide for ever single community. Arguing that the quran is the only guide is flawed reasoning, for even today there are issues of knowing the true understanding of the quran. Allah did not send the quran only, the quran came with Muhammad A.S. Also as the quran states,

None touches (the depth of meaning of Qur’an) save the purified ones. (Qur’an 56:79)

No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (Qur’an 3:7)

 

Ill leave it at that.

 

 

My question: Please quote statement of Imam Ali (as) where he himself claimed his divine authority based on the above assertion of Hadith?

 

Logical Fallacy. Where does it state, an Imam must proclaim their self as an imam to be an divine authority? In fact, not a single verse even hints at such a reason. Also, self proclamation is flawed, for anyone can go around saying they are a divine representative of God. IT is when a true divine representative proclaims the next in authority that makes one divinely appointed. Anyway, just to put you at ease:

 

http://www.holybooks...ads/Al-Kafi.pdf

[pg497]

*This chapter contains proofs that they mentioned they are imams.

H 920, Ch. 81, h 2
Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad and
abu Ali al-Ash‘ari from Muhammad ibn Hassa’n, all of them from Muhammad ibn Ali, Nasr
ibn Muzahim from ‘Amr ibn Sa‘id from Jarrah ibn ‘Abdallah from Rafi‘ ibn Salama who has
said the following.

" On the day of al-Nahrawan I was in the presence of Ali ibn abu Talib (a.
s.). As we were sitting with the Imam (a.s.) a horse man approached and said, "al-salamu
‘Alayka ya Ali (peace be with you O Ali)." Ali (a.s.) said, "’Alayka al-salam (with you also
be peace). May your mother weep over your dead body, why did you not addressed me as the
Leader with Divine Authority?" He said, "Yes, I like to inform you about it. I was present in
al-Siffin when the truth was on your side. However, when approved the arbitrator to settle the
warring parties I disregarded you and I called a polytheist. Ever since I do not know where
should I turn to pledge allegiance to the Leadership with Divine Authority. If I can find a way
to know whether you are on the right side or on wrong side it will be better for me than the
world and all that is therein." Ali (a.s.) said to him, "May your mother weep on your dead
body. Come and stand up near me I will show the signs of the right and the signs of the wrong
side. As the man stood near him, a horse man approached running until he came to Ali (a.s.)
and said, "O Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.), I have the glad news of victory. May Allah make it
brightness to your eyes (out of joy). It is certain, by Allah, that all men of the enemy are
killed." Ali (a.s.) asked him, "Did it happen before or after their crossing the river?" He said,
"Before or after crossing." Ali (a.s.) said, "You have lied. I swear by the One Who makes the
seed to germinate and causes the fetuses to develop, that they (enemy) will never cross the
river until they are all killed." The man has said that it added to my understanding." Another
horse man came running and said just as what the one before had said and Amir al-Mu’minin
(a.s.) refused to accept his words as those of the one before. The man who had doubts about
Ali (a.s.) has said that he wanted to attack Ali (a.s.) with his sword and chop his head with the
sword. Two other men came running on horses soaked in sweet. They said, "May Allah
brighten your eyes with the joy of victory O Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.). We have the glad news
of victory for you. It is certain, by Allah, thatall of the people are killed." Ali (a.s.) then asked,
"Did it happen before or after their crossing the river?" They said, "It happened before their
crossing the river. When they tried to cross it and water reached up to the mane of their horses
they turned back and there they all were killed." Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) said, "You have
spoken the truth." The man then climbed down his horse and held Amir al-Mu’minin’s (a.s.)
hand and feet and kissed them." Ali (a.s.) said, "This is the sign (my being on the right side
for you) for you."

 

Here are some hadiths from your own sunni books:

 

Then he (Muhammad A.S) said, "Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord [i.e. the call of death]. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah. Then he said, "And my Ahlul Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt"'" ....

(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al-­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba’at Muhammad ‘Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

 

14) The Prophet (s) said, “I am the warner, and the guide after me is Ali (a).” Musnad Ahmad, 1/151; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/135; Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’I, 20; Kenz Al-Omal, 1/247; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 222.

قال النبي (ص) : أنا المنذر والهادي من بعدي: عليّ
مسند احمد 1/151 ، 3/213 - الترمذي 2/135 ، الخصائص للنسائي 20 - كنز العمال 1/247 - ابن المغازلي 222

 

 

16) The Prophet (s) said, “Of whomever I was master, Ali (a) is his master.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/129; Kenz Al-Omal, 6/157; Al-Dilmi.

قال النبي (ص) : من كنت مولاه فمولاه عليّ
مستدرك الصحيحين للحاكم النيسابوري 3/129 - كنز العمال 6/157 - الديلمي.

 

 

31) The Prophet (s) said, “Ali (a) is the Imam of the pious, the prince of believers, and the leader of the resplendent.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/129; Kenz Al-Omal, 6/153.

قال النبي (ص) : عليّ (ع) إمام المتقين , وأمير المؤمنين ، وقائد الغرّ المحجّلين
مستدرك الصحيحين للحاكم النيسابوري 3/129 - كنز العمال 6/153

 

 

34) The Prophet (s) said, “Ali (a) is with the Qur’an, and the Qur’an is with Ali.” Al-Bukhari, 5/19; Muslim, 2/360; Al-Tirmidhi, 5/304; Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/109; Ibn Majah, 1/28; Musnad Ahmad, 3/328.

قال النبي (ص) : عليّ (ع) مع القرآن , والقرآن مع علي
البخاري 5/19 - مسلم 2/360 - الترمذي 5/304 - مستدرك الصحيحين للحاكم النيسابوري 3/109 - ابن ماجة 1/28 - مسند أحمد 3/328

 

and more http://www.alseraj.net/23/?simple&1025632047 and Al-Hadi.us

 

 

(wasalam)

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I would first like to say, imamate is without a doubt a defined concept in the quran. It is undeniable. Saying it does not exist because it is not LITERALLY put in the quran is a logical fallacy. For one, the quran is not a literal book, two, it does not have to state it to make something authoritative, and three, authority of Muhammad A.S is clear in the quran through hadith. If you are willing to argue lets not use fallacious arguments like "Either...Or..", its a waste of time.

Keep your logical fallacy to yourself and start talking sense. If an usul isnt mentioned LITERALLY and CLEARLY in the quran then it is NOT an usul, it's that simple

Edited by Wisdom007

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Keep your logical fallacy to yourself and start talking sense. If an usul isnt mentioned LITERALLY and CLEARLY in the quran then it is NOT an usul, it's that simple

They can't prove it because they can't provide a single clear verse. Take a look at these explicit verses, and the verses that he's trying to use:

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lordand [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

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(bismillah)

To understand the divine book/religion. Purity of heart is essential. You can't have that, untill you, are  just to the one who gave you what you have today, - Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp)

 

A) Is Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) infallable ?(no sin/error)

 

B )Do you disassociate from the companions /wives who disobeyed, disrespected, and did not follow the commands of the the infallible during and after him?

 

C) Did the infallible compile the Qur'an or  Did the infallible leave the Quran to be complied by fallible? Why?

 

D) Did the infallible announce the successor or did he provide instructions to choose one, or did the infallible left it for the fallible to ruin the religion?

 

Answer the above, if you can’t do justice here, you can’t do justice to any other concept.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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(bismillah)

To understand the divine book/religion. Purity of heart is essential. You can't have that, untill you, are just to the one who gave you what you have today, - Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp)

A) Is Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) infallable ?(no sin/error)

B )Do you disassociate from the companions /wives who disobeyed, disrespected, and did not follow the commands of the the infallible during and after him?

C) Did the infallible compile the Qur'an or Did the infallible leave the Quran to be complied by fallible? Why?

D) Did the infallible announce the successor or did he provide instructions to choose one, or did the infallible left it for the fallible to ruin the religion?

Answer the above, if you can’t do justice here, you can’t do justice to any other concept.

A) irrelevant

B ) irrelevant

C) irrelevant

D) irrelevant

Surah 3 verse 7 clearly states that the foundations are in precise verses. All other foundations of islam are clear as day but imamate of imams? I don't think so

They can't prove it because they can't provide a single clear verse. Take a look at these explicit verses, and the verses that he's trying to use:

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

Totally agree with you brother

Edited by Wisdom007

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They can't prove it because they can't provide a single clear verse. Take a look at these explicit verses, and the verses that he's trying to use:

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lordand [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

 

We have clear saheeh Shi'ah narrations saying that the Ahlul Dhikr mentioned in the Qur'an are Ahl al-Bayt. Here's just a couple of examples:

 

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن النضر بن سويد، عن عاصم بن حميد، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل " وإنه لذكر لك ولقومك وسوف تسألون " فرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله الذكر وأهل بيته عليه السلام المسؤولون وهم أهل الذكر

Many of our companions from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husain ibn Sa`id from al-Nadhr ibn Suwaid from `Asim ibn Humaid from Abi Baseer from Abu `Abdillah (al-Sadiq [as]) about Allah's words, “And indeed, it is a remembrance for you and your people, and you [all] are going to be questioned.(43:44), therefore the Messenger of Allah is the reminder the Ahl al-Bayt are those who will be questioned, as they are Ahl al-Dhikr. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadeeth number 541)

 

Hadeeth is saheeh.

 

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن العلاء بن رزين عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: إن من عندنا يزعمون أن قول الله عز وجل: " فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون " أنهم اليهود والنصارى، قال: إذا يدعونكم إلى دينهم! قال: - قال بيده إلى صدره - نحن أهل الذكر ونحن المسؤولون.

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Muhammad ibn al-Husain from Safwan ibn Yahya from al-Ala’ b. Razeen from Muhammad ibn Muslim from Abu Ja`far (al-Baqir [as])

He (Muhammad b. Muslim) said: Of us there are some who say that what Allah has said “So ask the People of the Reminder if you do know not.” (16:43) refers to the Jews and the Christians. He then said with his hand on his chest: we are the Ahl al-Dhikr and we are the questioned ones. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadeeth number 544)

 

Hadeeth is saheeh.

Edited by Ali al-Hadi

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Why would you need to retake a new shahadah?? Do Sunni and Shia not pray the same shahadah to enter islam???

The testimony to enter Islam is "la ilaha ila Allah, Muhammad rasul Allah". Shias typically add "Aliyun ameer al-Momineen wali Allah" but it isn't required. Just a statement of belief :)

Yasser al-Habeeb does an interesting Shahadah with new rawafid where he has them curse the first 3 and the 2 wives plus Muawiyah and Yazeed (la`nat on the last two). None of it I'd required, its just an addendum to state their beliefs on certain controversial matters. The 2 required statements are the same for Sunni and Shia.

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i) Provide my any verse of Qur'an that orders the believers to believe in Imams (who are non-prophets) same as Allah commands the believers to believe in prophets as criteria of salvation.

 

 

This is a logical fallacy. You would have to prove Imamate and Prophethood cannot be together. Otherwise, it is completely reasonable and logically that an Prophet can also become an Imam. I will just provide a few verses indicating that Imamte clearly exists. There are countless sunni tafsir that prove the position of Ali A.S regarding the revelation of such verses, and other hadith, but if you would like to see those go to Al-Hadi.us

 

What is a logical fallacy? If there is a divine status a part from prophethood? Where can I find one in Qur'an? I didn't ask you the verse of Leadership of Prophets but leadership of non-prophets as divine authority?

 

Please ... Refer to me any verse of Qur'an that talks about a person who has divine authority of Imamate without the status of prophethood anywhere from Adam (as) till the last human being on the face of this earth?

 

The verse of 4:59 is against the practical implementation of Shia Imamate. There are two times word "Ulil-Amr" has been used in Qur'an. Lets analyze the verse in another place:

 

When there comes to them some matter touching (public) safety or fear, they make it known (among the people), if only they had referred it to the Messenger or to the Ulil-Amr among them, the proper investigators would have understood it from them (directly). Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah upon you, you would have followed Shaitan (Satan), save a few of you.

 

The message of Qur'an applies accurately in every age including the Shan-e-Nazool of the situation.

 

Considering a point: Ulil-Amr is plural!

 

Qur'an implies that there were more than one authority present at the time of Prophet (saw) who should be consulted for the investigation of news?

 

* If this authority is divine, then how come it is established at the time of Prophet (saw)? There can not be two divine authorities at the same!

 

* The mentioning of more than one authority at one time negates Shia dogma of Imamate as well in literal perspective!

 

You have failed to provide me any verse that commands us to believe in Imamate or Imams sent to mankind in any age between Adam (as) till doomsday like there are many verses commands us to believe in Prophets of all times!

 

 

 

 

My question: Please quote statement of Imam Ali (as) where he himself claimed his divine authority based on the above assertion of Hadith?

 

Logical Fallacy. Where does it state, an Imam must proclaim their self as an imam to be an divine authority? In fact, not a single verse even hints at such a reason. Also, self proclamation is flawed, for anyone can go around saying they are a divine representative of God.

 

Messengers of Allah has been directed by Allah to proclaim their divine authorities all throughout their life saying: "Say: I am a messenger...."

 

If Imam Ali (ra) supposedly claimed his divine authority and could not relate it with Shia assumed interpretations, then this interpretation would become much weakest in credibility in the eyes of mainstream Muslims.

 

Let alone Imam from Qur'an, I can not find a Shias proving if:

 

Hadhrat Ali (ra) claimed his divine authority on the basis of Ghadir-e-Khum or Shia interpretation of Manzilah. However whenever he claimed his position as Caliphate we read in Nahjul Balagha, I never found him relating to his divine authority (which is the most important one), not even while claiming his right of caliphate.

 

Lets assume: "Prophet claiming his right of prophethood based on his good deeds and NOT by proclaiming himself to be the one sent by Allah directly to his people?" .. Weird Isn't it?

 

And last of all my question is still unanswered:

 

My question is how can I be guided by an Infallible not a fallible like you if I were to believe in Imamate?

 

Let's solve this issue with 2 points now:

 

We'll consider to search more for Imamate or search for the list of Imams IF:

 

1.) Qur'an gives us the literal insight about its status without any hadith/commentary just like it gives the literal insight about Nabuwaah & Risaalat.

 

OR

 

2.) If our Shia brothers have to add their commentary and Hadith narrated and reported by Fallible people to prove their Infallible Imams then IT IS INCONSIDERABLE on part of us. We'd only be considering the explanation of this dogma if presented by the INFALLIBLE HIMSELF to prove his divine/infallible status of Imamate.

 

How on the earth Shias expect Sunnis to become Shia when there is no DIVINE STATUS OF SHIA IMAMS mentioned in Qur'an and there is no TANGIBLE IMAM in the World to guide them?

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What is a logical fallacy? If there is a divine status a part from prophethood? Where can I find one in Qur'an? I didn't ask you the verse of Leadership of Prophets but leadership of non-prophets as divine authority?

Please ... Refer to me any verse of Qur'an that talks about a person who has divine authority of Imamate without the status of prophethood anywhere from Adam (as) till the last human being on the face of this earth?

The verse of 4:59 is against the practical implementation of Shia Imamate. There are two times word "Ulil-Amr" has been used in Qur'an. Lets analyze the verse in another place:

When there comes to them some matter touching (public) safety or fear, they make it known (among the people), if only they had referred it to the Messenger or to the Ulil-Amr among them, the proper investigators would have understood it from them (directly). Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah upon you, you would have followed Shaitan (Satan), save a few of you.

The message of Qur'an applies accurately in every age including the Shan-e-Nazool of the situation.

Considering a point: Ulil-Amr is plural!

Qur'an implies that there were more than one authority present at the time of Prophet (saw) who should be consulted for the investigation of news?

* If this authority is divine, then how come it is established at the time of Prophet (saw)? There can not be two divine authorities at the same!

* The mentioning of more than one authority at one time negates Shia dogma of Imamate as well in literal perspective!

You have failed to provide me any verse that commands us to believe in Imamate or Imams sent to mankind in any age between Adam (as) till doomsday like there are many verses commands us to believe in Prophets of all times!

Messengers of Allah has been directed by Allah to proclaim their divine authorities all throughout their life saying: "Say: I am a messenger...."

If Imam Ali (ra) supposedly claimed his divine authority and could not relate it with Shia assumed interpretations, then this interpretation would become much weakest in credibility in the eyes of mainstream Muslims.

Let alone Imam from Qur'an, I can not find a Shias proving if:

Hadhrat Ali (ra) claimed his divine authority on the basis of Ghadir-e-Khum or Shia interpretation of Manzilah. However whenever he claimed his position as Caliphate we read in Nahjul Balagha, I never found him relating to his divine authority (which is the most important one), not even while claiming his right of caliphate.

Lets assume: "Prophet claiming his right of prophethood based on his good deeds and NOT by proclaiming himself to be the one sent by Allah directly to his people?" .. Weird Isn't it?

And last of all my question is still unanswered:

Let's solve this issue with 2 points now:

We'll consider to search more for Imamate or search for the list of Imams IF:

1.) Qur'an gives us the literal insight about its status without any hadith/commentary just like it gives the literal insight about Nabuwaah & Risaalat.

OR

2.) If our Shia brothers have to add their commentary and Hadith narrated and reported by Fallible people to prove their Infallible Imams then IT IS INCONSIDERABLE on part of us. We'd only be considering the explanation of this dogma if presented by the INFALLIBLE HIMSELF to prove his divine/infallible status of Imamate.

How on the earth Shias expect Sunnis to become Shia when there is no DIVINE STATUS OF SHIA IMAMS mentioned in Qur'an and there is no TANGIBLE IMAM in the World to guide them?

Brilliant answer Mashallah

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What is a logical fallacy? If there is a divine status a part from prophethood? Where can I find one in Qur'an? I didn't ask you the verse of Leadership of Prophets but leadership of non-prophets as divine authority? Please ... Refer to me any verse of Qur'an that talks about a person who has divine authority of Imamate without the status of prophethood anywhere from Adam (as) till the last human being on the face of this earth?

 

A fallacy is incorrect argument in logic and rhetoric resulting in a lack of validity, or more generally, a lack of soundness. Basically your argument is flawed. As you keep repeating your points that I have addressed already. Being a divinely appoint imam and a prophet (like Ibrahim A.S) does not devoid the concept of imamate. We understand imamate clearly exists in the holy quran, and what doesnt exist is authority given through self proclamation (Shuraa) or people choosing a leader. There are 124000 prophets, are they all listed in the holy quran? Does it devoid them of their status? If you are going to be consistent with your argument, apply it to all aspects. The duty of succesorship of Muhammad A.S, was left for Muhammad A.S., through his decree commanded by Allah. Telling me the appointment of Imam Ali A.S must be in the quran, or that a non prophet being given authority must also be shown in the quran is no argument, whether it is shown in the quran or not, does not disprove of its existence or authority. You have yet to prove this point to me, as you keep ignoring it. Is Abu Bakr's shura presented in the holy quran? No, going by your reasoning, it is clearly devoid of any given authority, and Islamically deemed unlawful.

 

 

When there comes to them some matter touching (public) safety or fear, they make it known (among the people), if only they had referred it to the Messenger or to the Ulil-Amr among them, the proper investigators would have understood it from them (directly). Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah upon you, you would have followed Shaitan (Satan), save a few of you.

The message of Qur'an applies accurately in every age including the Shan-e-Nazool of the situation.

 

Brother you have pointed out a great verse, may Allah bless you. There is a HUGE difference between the two verses, of which I will clearly explain to inshAllah clear all your doubts. Both are referring to the Imams A.S.

 

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you (Ulul Amri MINKUM); then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

 

The context of this verse is universal. The significance of this verse that the term minkum is used which proves there will always be a divine authority (due to ulul amr) among us. Because obedience to Allah is put forth amid everything else, and the obedience of Muhammad A.S and the Ulul Amr is put together in conjunction with the obedience to Allah, as shown in the arabic grammar.

 

This verse proves there must be a divinely appointed (infallible) representative right now. Who is that according to you?

 

 

Now the verse you quoted:

 

[shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few

 

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

 

Where as the context of this verse is pivotal as well. This verse is also referring to the authority chosen by Muhammad A.S, and how disobeying the prophet and the authority he chose However, the term MINHUM is used, which puts importance of the past happenings, where people did not obey the prophet and the people of authority. It is because in that verse the talk was about a disputed legislative order; and on one has any authority in that field except Allah and His Messenger. But in the verse under discussion they are told to refer a news of security or fear, and such a news cannot be referred to Allah and His book; the people who could decide about it were the Messenger and those in authority among them. If the news were referred to them they could find out its reality and explain to the believers whether it was true or false, right or wrong. Ulul Amr, is still regarding the Imams/Ahlulbayt because this authority depended on truth and falsehood, right and wrong.

 

Here is an argument from Tafsir Al-Mizan (Found here http://www.almizan.org/ and search for Quran 4:83) regarding Ulul Amr:

 

The phrase, ulu'l-amr (= those vested with authority; those in authority) has the same connotations in the preceding verse 59: O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you. As described there, the exegetes have differed much in the explanation of this phrase; however mainly there are five interpretations. The meaning which we have mentioned here is more obvious from this verse [as is explained below].

 

1. The view that ulu'l-amr means the leaders of the fighting detachments is not relevant here. Those leaders had no authority except over a particular band of fighters in a particular combat; they had no knowledge or authority beyond that. But the verse here talks about something much bigger and more important: Disturbance of security, spreading of fear and general fright which the polytheists caused by infiltrating spies and secret agents who spread rumors to demoralize the believers. What concern the leaders of fighting bands had with such matters? How could they explain the truth or otherwise of such news if the people referred it to them?

 

2. The opinion that ulu'l-amr means scholars is equally irrelevant. The scholars - and in that era they were the narrators of tradi­tions, jurisprudents, reciters of Qur'an and theologians - had expertise in tradition, jurisprudence, etc. But this verse speaks about matters of security and general feeling of terror; it is concerned with such news which was deeply connected with political affairs, which if ignored or wrongly handled could disturb the Muslims' lives and result in such sociological calamities which no reformer could ever put right. It could nullify the nation's endeavors in the path of its felicity; or could rob them of their supremacy and make them prey of humiliation and degradation, or leave them to be killed or imprisoned. What expertise did the scholars - in their capacity as narrators of traditions, experts of jurisprudence or reciters of Qur'an and so on - have in these matters, that Allah would order the people to refer such news to them? How could they solve such problems in the political arena?

 

3. The opinion that it refers to the 'rightly guided' caliphs (Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali) is more baseless. First of all, there is no proof for it in the Book of Allah or a definitely accepted tradition. Secondly, we have a right to ask: Was the order given in this verse limited to the time of the Prophet (s.a.w.)? Or, was it general - for his time as well as after him? If it was meant for his time only, then the four personalities should have been known as the people of authority to all the people and particularly to the Companions of the Prophet; but the history and traditions do not record any such especial

status for them at all. In case it was valid for the post-Prophetic era too, then its validity was bound to expire after those four caliphs had passed away. If so, then the verse should have contained some indication to that effect as is the case with other verses which announce some especial rules for the Prophet (s.a.w.); but the verse does not hint at any such limitation.

 

4. The interpretation of ulu'l-amr as the people who 'tie and open', the influential persons, is equally out of place. Such exegetes know that there was no group, in the days of the Prophet (s.a.w.), known as ahlu'l-halli wa'l-'aqd, like other civilized societies which do have well-defined committees and councils, e.g. cabinet of ministers, delegations sent to conferences, etc. At that time the only rule implemented in the ummah was of Allah and His Messenger. This difficulty complied him to say that ulu'l-amr were those Companions whose advice was sought and whom the Prophet (s.a.w.) consulted.

But, the fact remains that the Prophet (s.a.w.) included in his consultations not only the believers but even hypocrites like 'Abdullah ibn Abi and his band. The story of his consultation in the battle of Uhud is well-known. How can Allah order the believers to refer such sensitive news to such people?

 

Moreover, no one denies that 'Abdu 'r-Rahman ibn 'Awf was among those who had this status in the life of the Prophet (s.a.w.) and even after him. And these verses, which admonish the believers of weaker faith and put them to shame for what they had done, have begun with exposing him and his group in these words: Have you not seen those to whom it was said: "Withhold your hands..." This tradition has been narrated by an-Nasa'i (in his as-Sahih), al-Hakim (in his al-Mustadrak, declaring that it is a correct tradition) and at-Tabari and others in their books of tafsir (commentary). And the said traditions have been given under "Traditions" under the preceding verses. Keeping this in view, how can one say that the believers were ordered to refer this matter to such people?

 

Now, remains only the fifth interpretation which we had preferred under the verse: obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you... (4:59). [That is: The ulu'l-amr are the Twelve sinless successors of the Holy Prophet, s.a.w.]

 

 

 

Considering a point: Ulil-Amr is plural!

Qur'an implies that there were more than one authority present at the time of Prophet (saw) who should be consulted for the investigation of news?

* If this authority is divine, then how come it is established at the time of Prophet (saw)? There can not be two divine authorities at the same!

* The mentioning of more than one authority at one time negates Shia dogma of Imamate as well in literal perspective!

 

Yea, it makes sense that ulil amr is plural. Muhammad A.S can give authority to any being he wants, and what better authority is there than his own flesh whom has gained his knowledge?

 

Your two points are again a logical fallacy: "If..Then" fallacy to be exact. There clearly can be two authorities divinely commanded + more and we see it throughout the holy quran. Meaning, only when the former commands obedience to the latter it is valid. As we see the verses from Allah commanded above to give obedience to more than one authority. See Muhammad A.S, tells us to obey both him and Ali A.S , this is valid because Muhammad A.S who is given authority by Allah, commands us to. Just as Musa A.S commanded his people to follow Aaron during and after his time. The difference is there cannot be two prophets or imams at the same time. For example, Prophet Yaqoob a.s and Prophet Yousuf A.S, both are prophets but only one proclaimed prophethood at a time. You are confusing concepts here. Now if there was a command from Prophet Yaqoob A.S to obey Yousuf A.S, his obedience is valid, but Yousuf a.s cannot proclaim his prophethood while Yaqoob A.S is still a prophet. While Prophet Muhammad A.S was still a prophet, Imam Ali A.S imamate was not in affect only until after Prophet Muhammad A.S completed his mission, however, Prophet Muhammad A.S still gave/commanded authority to Imam Ali A.S countless times.

 

 

Hadhrat Ali (ra) claimed his divine authority on the basis of Ghadir-e-Khum or Shia interpretation of Manzilah. However whenever he claimed his position as Caliphate we read in Nahjul Balagha, I never found him relating to his divine authority (which is the most important one), not even while claiming his right of caliphate.

 

Wrong, Prophet Muhammad A.S claimed Imam Ali A.S divine authority on the basis of Ghadir. But it wasnt the only time his authority was proven, throughout history. Nagul Balagha is mainly consisted of Sunni Hadith and History on Imam Ali A.S, I have already provided Shia Hadith in which Imam Ali A.S himself proclaims his Imamate.

 

Here are some from the Nagul Balagha of which you assume and wrongly chose not to research and misinform, there is much more but I am short on time. Just truly read the Nagul Balagha and you will see him a.s talking about his and his families authority given by Allah and Muhammad A.S:

 

About the Descendants (`Itrah) of the Holy Prophet

 

"So whither are you going to" (Qur'an, 81:26)

 

 

and

 

"how are you then turned away?" (Qur'an, 6:95; 10:34; 35:3; 40:62).

 

Ensigns (of guidance) are standing, indications (of virtue) are clear, and the minarets (of light) have been fixed. Where are you being taken astray and how are you groping while you have among you the descendants of the Prophet? They are the reins of Right, ensigns of Faith and tongues of truth. Accord to them the same good position as you accord to the Qur'an, and come to them (for quenching the thirst of guidance) as the thirsty camels approach the water spring.

 

O people learn this saying1 of the last of the Prophets: “He who dies from among us is not dead, and he who decays (after dying) from among us does not really decay”. Do not say what you do not understand, because most of the Right is in what you deny. Accept the argument of one against whom you have no argument. It is I. Did I not act before you on the greater thaqal (ath-thaqal al-akbar, i.e. the Qur'an) and did I not retain among you the smaller thaqal (ath-thaqal-al-asghar, i.e. the descendants of the Prophet)2? I fixed among you the standard of faith, and I taught you the limits of lawful and unlawful. I clothed you with the garments of safety with my justice and spread for you (the carpet of) virtue by my word and deed.

 

I showed you high manners through myself. Do not exercise your imagination about what the eye cannot see or the mind cannot conceive.

 

About the Holy Prophet and his Descendants (`Itrah)

 

Until this distinction of Allah, the Glorified, reached Muhammad - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants. Allah brought him out from the most distinguished sources of origin and the most honourable places of planting, namely from the same (lineal) tree from which He brought forth other Prophets and from which He selected His trustees. Muhammad's descendants are the best descendants, his kinsmen the best of kin and his lineal tree the best of trees. It grew in esteem and rose in distinction. It has tall branches and unapproachable fruits.

 

He is the leader (Imam) of all who exercise fear (of Allah) and a light for those who seek guidance. He is a lamp whose flame is burning, a meteor whose light is shining and a flint whose spark is bright. His conduct is upright, his behaviour is guiding, his speech is decisive and his decision is just. Allah sent him after an interval from the previous Prophets when people had fallen into errors of action and ignorance. Allah may have mercy on you.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/qualities-faithful-believer#about-descendants-itrah-holy-prophet

 

About the Descendants of the Holy Prophet

 

We are the tree of prophethood, staying place of (Divine) Message, descending place of angels, mines of knowledge and the sources of wisdom. Our supporter and lover awaits mercy while our enemy and he who hates us awaits wrath.

 

The excellence of Ahlul Bayt (the Household of the Holy Prophet)

 

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely the Imams (divine leaders) will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.

 

 

 

 

1.) Qur'an gives us the literal insight about its status without any hadith/commentary just like it gives the literal insight about Nabuwaah & Risaalat.

OR

2.) If our Shia brothers have to add their commentary and Hadith narrated and reported by Fallible people to prove their Infallible Imams then IT IS INCONSIDERABLE on part of us. We'd only be considering the explanation of this dogma if presented by the INFALLIBLE HIMSELF to prove his divine/infallible status of Imamate.

"Either...Or Fallacy" - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/94-false-dilemma Your reasoning is flawed by such a degree..

 

 

 

How on the earth Shias expect Sunnis to become Shia when there is no DIVINE STATUS OF SHIA IMAMS mentioned in Qur'an and there is no TANGIBLE IMAM in the World to guide them?

 

We do not expect you to become Shias. We expect you to obey Allah and Muhammad A.S.

 

Again, Allah gave authority to Muhammad A.S and that is what we call Hadith. Not everything is mentioned through quran, and the divine appointment of the imams (by names) are found within the hadith.

 

You are mistaken, the Imam A.S exists and he is present in this world, it is we who cannot be in contact or see him, due to the command of Allah. Just as many other divine authorities went into occulation, yet guidance was still prevalent. I made a thread about this a while back.

 

 

(bismillah)

 

This is just some of my thoughts on this matter. Feel free to add on.

 

It is a trial and command from Allah for the imam to be in occultation. HE is present just not physically present. IF you can believe in a jinn (being) whom you can never see or prove, that is called satan who has been alive on this earth since before the creation of man, to MISGUIDE us, how can you not believe in a representative chosen by Allah to guide us while not being physically present? Not only that, but why has satan decided to stay till the end of time? Why not finish his job after Muhammad A.S? Because he challenged Allah to led man astray as long as Allah has His representatives on this earth. Therefore it is proof in itself that Allah will always have a representative on this earth. Our imam went into the second occultation. He elected representatives before he went into hiding. Not only that, but history is proof of itself on his existence. How can you expect God to be just when He has allowed for satan to exist till end of man to misguide us all, while not having a representative guiding us to out-do satan? This situation reminds me of a few of the prophet's people.

 

When Musa A.S went into minor occulation and came back to find his people as disbelievers:

 

[shakir 7:148] And Musa's people made of their ornaments a calf after him, a (mere) body, which gave a mooing sound. What! could they not see that it did not speak to them nor guide them m the way? They took it (for worship) and they were unjust.

[shakir 7:149] And when they repented and saw that they had gone astray, they said: If our Lord show not mercy to us and forgive us we shall certainly be of the losers.

[shakir 7:150] And when Musa returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord? And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people.

 

Or when Isa A.S left his people (NOTE: All muslims believe that he is still alive ie: Occultation):

 

[shakir 4:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[shakir 4:158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

 

 

Or when Prophet Yunus A.S left his people and came back:

 

[21:87]And (remember) Yúnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never have power over him (naqdira). Then he called in the darkness [of night, sea, and fish]: There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of those who make haste”.

 

As we can see, from among the greatest prophets ever to have walked this earth went into occultations by the will of Allah. It is truly a test from Allah. We can see, many of the prophets ummah failed and went astray while there were a few to have had faith and believed in Allah and his representative. Can we say that they were not prophets solely on the reason that they went away from their people for some time? What about khidr a.s as well? It is honestly absurd to say the prophets significance was cut off when they went away. No muslim can challenge that. These beings were hujja regardless of their physical presence and that is part of their purpose. The same goes with our Imam Mahdi A.S

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah. MashaAllah, welcome to Islam. Blessings be to you.

 

And welcome to the forum, I hope you like it here. And I suggest the ethics subforum on shiachat most, to dive into irfan inshaAllah.

 

Also for your Islamic studies, you can refer to these websites

 

http://www.al-islam.org

 

(Most comprehensive shia Islamic website out there, with articles, book/let/s, etc. You can bookmark and browse it)

 

http://www.islamicmobility.com

 

(For Islamic e-books)

 

http://www.islamquest.net

 

[islamic Q&A website. You can browse Q&A and submit your questions on philosophy (of religious beliefs and practices), history and jurisprudence]

 

http://www.shiasource.com

 

(For Islamic sermons from shia Muslim scholars, and movies, etc. And I suggest lecturers such as Hajj Hassanain Rajabali, Hajj Khalil Jaffer, Maulana Syed Muhammad Rizvi, Dr. Farrokh Sekaleshfar and Ammar Nakhshawani.)

 

But please be slow yet steady in your studies inshaAllah. ma salam

Edited by HamzaTR

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Assalamu alaikum. I want to give everyone an update on my journey here insha'Allah. First, it looks like this thread has turned into arguing and I'm not sure how as I haven't even posted for awhile! Subhanallah.

 

I finished reading "Then I was Guided" which I found very educational and inspirational. Insha'Allah I am going to read "Peshawar Nights" as well as has been suggested for me. I have also attended a Shia masjid and masha'Allah it is a nice community although small in size (maybe busy during Ramadan and 10 Muharram I don't know). They had a few sisters' lectures I went to. Most of the stuff I already knew as it is identical or very similar to what I've already learned in the Sunni masajids. There are some things that are new to me though and I'm not sure if they are just different than what the Sunni madhabs teach or if I simply had never been taught them before. I also was able to attend a couple of jummah salat as well. The prayer is similar but it seems as if the words are different in many places. There are also some duas or recitations here and there that are done during lectures and I haven't figured those out yet but insha'Allah soon. They gave me a coulpe of turbahs which I really like. It felt different praying in this manner but I liked it. Nobody was pushy to make me Shia and I already told them that based on what I've read so far it makes more sense that Ali (as) would be the rightful successor after Rasulullah (saw). They encouraged me to study both Sunni and Shia while on the contrary Sunni has told me to avoid Shia, lol.

 

Someone also suggested I try online courses as I like this approach to learning. I'm already 1/4 finished with the Islamic Online University diploma program (Bilal Philips/salafi manhaj) and will still continue with it insha'Allah because it is good education even if I don't agree with all of it. Anyway, they suggested Al Mustafa Open University. I went to the website(s) but it is rather confusing as to what program to take and whether or not there are fees, etc. I probably should stick to something simple rather than an advanced program. Please let me know. Jazakallah khair.

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Salam alaikum, threads on forums about different groups will normally reduce themselves to bickering among different insistent young men who all hope to mean well, but usually both the Sunnis and Shias (or groups on any forum) blow up the arguments to the point of absurdly long diatribes leaving things a bit hollow. I'm glad to 'meet' someone who has done something which I have suggested in many threads, it is not forums that will solve the Sunni-Shia issue in the favor of Truth, but educating oneself through reflection, reading, and familiarizing oneself through the best methods (i.e. actually listening to Shias and considering their position impartially). Truth is the constant goal of Islam.

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Being a divinely appoint imam and a prophet (like Ibrahim A.S) does not devoid the concept of imamate. We understand imamate clearly exists in the holy quran, and what doesnt exist is authority given through self proclamation (Shuraa) or people choosing a leader.
 

 

 

Again your are bickering with me over an issue of leadership of Prophets. If  concept of Imamate as fundamental article faith proclaimed by Shias was established in Qur'an which is supposedly greatest in status, Allah would have at least give us its insight same as HE HAS GIVEN us for prophethood.
 
Authority given through self-proclaimation is not considered DIVINE IN STATUS so your comparison doesn't make any sense here.

There are 124000 prophets, are they all listed in the holy quran? Does it devoid them of their status? If you are going to be consistent with your argument, apply it to all aspects. 
 

 

 

There prophethood is listed in the Qur'an in more than 400 times in every aspect which is enough for us to consider the status of 124000 prophets.
 
1) Criteria of salvation 
2) Commandment to believe in them, 
3) Sunnah of Allah of destroying nation upon rejecting them
4) Sunnah of Allah to send them to the nations who got misguided due to the absence of guidance.
5) Their stories ...
 
There is no aspect of Imamate in any way covered as potrayed by Shias in following sense:
 
1) World can not be empty without Imams. Qur'an doesn't talk about any Imam after Esa (as). However Esa (Alayhi Salam) mentions himself as the witness amongst the Israelites because he was the Prophet sent to them. It is puzzling as to why Isa (Alayhi Salam) does not mention any “Infallible Imaam” as the person who kept watch over the Children of Israel after his departure. According to the Shia faith, Isa (Alayhi Salam) did in fact appoint someone to succeed him before he left, yet there is no trace of him neither in this Ayah nor in the other Verses (such as 2:252, 19:37, etc.) that mention the problems that arose after Isa’s (Alayhi Salam) ascension.
 
2) Allah appoints 12 individuals among the Progeny of Prophet to Lead Ummah and we are commanded to believe in them and follow them to achieve criteria of salvation. However Allah talks about the appointment of fallible human beings among the children of Israel which is a minor Issue as compare to imamate.
 
3) Allah uses the connotation of Imamah in a literal sense and in a divinely religious sense. That is the case no where in the Qur'an Allah uses rasool/Nabi (conveyer of Message or news) in a literal sense for Kuffars, however he uses the connotations of Imams of Kufr in a literal which only talks about the leadership of KUFR. Had it been a divine status like prophethood, Allah would deal it religiously not literally!
 
4) Holy Prophet was himself an Imam according to shia having the highest elevation of rank of Imamate (along with Nabuwaah and Risaalah). It is of extreme importance to note that when any dignitary or official in this world is addressed, he/she is referred to by the highest rank that he/she occupies.Given this criteria, it is interesting to note that the Holy Quran never addresses Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) as “Oh Imaam” or “This Imaam”. None of the places where Allah uses the word “Imaam” directly refers to Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam). Allah explicitly says that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) is indeed NO MORE THAN His Rasul and Nabi, none of them mention him as an Imaam or anything evensimilar to that.
 
5) People of the Book and Imamate: It is important to note that between the times of Musa (Alayhi Salam) and Isa (Alayhi Salam) there is more than enough evidence to prove that Imaamah as viewed in Shiaism did not exist during this period either.
 
People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making things clear to you, after a period
with no Messengers, lest you should say, ‘No one came to us bringing good news or warning.’
Someone has come to you bringing good news and a warning. Allah has power over all things.
(Quran 5:19)
 
Allah also addresses the People of the Book a few Verses before this, saying:
 
O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture (Quran 5:15)
 
With respect to the “Imaamah doctrine”, the researcher is immediately forced to ask the following
questions:
 
• Why would Allah mention absence of Messengers if the weight of preserving the Message and
calling unto Allah actually rests with the Imaam?
 
• Why would Allah say that “now” the light has come to them, if supposedly there was an
Infallible Imaam (the light from Allah) living among them even before the advent of Muhammad
(Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam)?
 
The duty of succesorship of Muhammad A.S, was left for Muhammad A.S., through his decree commanded by Allah. Telling me the appointment of Imam Ali A.S must be in the quran, or that a non prophet being given authority must also be shown in the quran is no argument, whether it is shown in the quran or not, does not disprove of its existence or authority.

 

 

 
I AM REPEATING IT AGAIN:
 
The Qur'an talks about the Caliphate after Prophet Muhammed (saw) based on Emaan and AIMAAL in 24:55. This condition refutes the dogma of someone being appointed directly by Allah in the manner Allah appoints Prophets. Allah never made the promise of making anyone Prophet on the basis of EMAAN & AMAAL. This divine status has always been unconditional! So if Caliphate was divine in status like that of Prophethood then the condition of EMAAN & AMAAL would not have been mentioned by Allah.

The context of this verse (4:59) is universal. The significance of this verse that the term minkum is used which proves there will always be a divine authority (due to ulul amr) among us.
 

 

 

"A DIVINE AUTHORITY"?
 
I could not see Allah saying "Waliul Amri Minkum" ??
 
Its Ulil Amri Minkum actually in verse.
 
Let me put the question again to you with plural connotation of verse:
 
This verse proves there must be divinely appointed representatives (more than one) right now. How does it go along with the status of Imamte, where it is a possibility of one imamate at one time which is also absent to lead the Ummah?
 
Brother you have pointed out a great verse, may Allah bless you. There is a HUGE difference between the two verses, of which I will clearly explain to inshAllah clear all your doubts. Both are referring to the Imams A.S. 
 
HUGE difference ? They are the same authorites but the context may be different.
 
Ulil - Amr = Shia Imams (According to you)
 
In past connotation how and why Allah used the plural of "Wali-ul-Amr" when supposedly it was only for Imam Ali (as)?
 
The difference is there cannot be two prophets or imams at the same time. For example, Prophet Yaqoob a.s and Prophet Yousuf A.S, both are prophets but only one proclaimed prophethood at a time. You are confusing concepts here.

 

 

 
Brother if you are considering the authority of Ulil-Amr to be a authority of divine status of Imamate then it doesn't make any sense according to Shia theory of Imamate:
 
1) In case of two prophets, the authority of other can only be established in an absence of a prophet.
 
2) In case of Ulil-Amr, the authority seems established in the verse along with the authority of Prophethood/Imamate (Prophet Muhammed (saw) was an Imam according to Shia) which doesn't go align with the doctrine of Imamate.
 
3) The verse talks about the Multiple presence of authorities among believers which also doesn't go align with the Shia thoery of Imamate.
 
We do not expect you to become Shias. We expect you to obey Allah and Muhammad A.S.
 
Again, Allah gave authority to Muhammad A.S and that is what we call Hadith. Not everything is mentioned through quran, and the divine appointment of the imams (by names) are found within the hadith.
 

 

 

Obeying Allah and Rasool using Hadith collected by fallible people? What's the use of Imamate then? : ) Brother the doctrine of Imamate differentiate Shia brothers with mainstream Muslims just on the basis of following fact:
 
"Shia brothers are supposed to rely on Infallibles Imams to follow Allah & HIS RASOOL (saw), while mainstream Muslims follow the Fallible People to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)"..
 
Your theory of asking me to refer to Allah and His Rasool (saw) through the books not confirmed by your present Imam damages the theory of Imamate! 
 
Your example of Prophets went in occultation:
 
Prophets went in occultation vs Your theory that in even in occultation, Imam can guide us just like Iblees can misguide us! Iblees is not in occultation! Don't make a fun of yourself please ...
 
Look at the flaws:
 
1) When Musa (as) left, they got misguided!
2) When Isa (as) left, he said in Qur'an after he had left them, he did have any knowledge about their condition and people went astray after him.
3) Yonus (as) left his people, Allah was annoyed with that!
 
Now your supposition that your imam is in occultation by Allah's will, but still guiding like the way Jinns and Shaitaan doesn't hold proof for Mankind in the sight of  above position of Prophets. It is proven that when Prophets left their nation in occulation, that was not in the end turn out be preasure of Allah (saw).

 

My points are still there:

 

 

 

Let's solve this issue with 2 points now:

We'll consider to search more for Imamate or search for the list of Imams IF:

1.) Qur'an gives us the literal insight about its status without any hadith/commentary just like it gives the literal insight about Nabuwaah & Risaalat.

OR 

2.) If our Shia brothers have to add their commentary and Hadith narrated and reported by Fallible people to prove their Infallible Imams then IT IS INCONSIDERABLE on part of us. We'd only be considering the explanation of this dogma if presented by the INFALLIBLE HIMSELF to prove his divine/infallible status of Imamate.

How on the earth Shias expect Sunnis to become Shia when there is no DIVINE STATUS OF SHIA IMAMS mentioned in Qur'an and there is no TANGIBLE IMAM in the World to guide them?
Edited by investigating

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This is my last response to you. You are getting emotional and repeating yourself.

 

Again your are bickering with me over an issue of leadership of Prophets. If  concept of Imamate as fundamental article faith proclaimed by Shias was established in Qur'an which is supposedly greatest in status, Allah would have at least give us its insight same as HE HAS GIVEN us for prophethood.

 

Prophet Ibrahim A.S was a prophet and then he became a leader (Imam) for mankind. Prophets have a significance, and that is to receive divine revelation. Only after his prophethood was completed and he was tested, Allah made him AND his progeny (Ahlulbayt A.S) according to the verse, divinely appointed leaders for mankind. Again, no self appointment or shuraa anywhere in the quran. You speak about the "leader-ship of prophets" yet Allah clearly distinguishes Ibrahim's A.S leadership (imamate) over his prophethood.

 

[shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

 

Again with the "if..then" fallacies, you say " If... then Allah would have", your not Allah, Allah does what He wills. He is the best of planners. Your logic does not hold. Allah does not have everything defined or said in the quran, to say something is irrelevant or does not exist because it isnt defined the way you want it to be, is flawed. Do all the divinely appointed representatives claim themselves that they are appointed by God in the quran? No. Therefore they are not divinely appointed by God? Of course not. If anything, you should be throwing Sunnism in the trash because many of its principles/tradtions are not found within the quran, for example caliphs and your caliphate system. Are you implying the command/words or Muhammad A.S are insignificant astagfirullah? Clearly by these verses, the traditions of Muhammad A.S have more authority upon us, then we do on our own selves.

"If the Messenger orders you to do something, obey it, and if he forbids somethings abstain from it". (al-Hashr, 59:7)

Obey Allah, the Messenger and those of you who are in charge of your affairs''.1 (al-Nisa, 4 59).

"The Prophet has more authority over the believers than that which they have over their selves". (al-Ahzab, 33:6)

By the Star when it sets, (Qur’an 53:1)

Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived (Qur’an 53:2)

Nor does he speak out of his desire; (Qur’an 53:3)

It is no less than a revelation that is revealed. (Qur’an 53:4)

The Mighty in Power has taught him. (Qur’an 53:5)

 

 

Authority given through self-proclaimation is not considered DIVINE IN STATUS so your comparison doesn't make any sense here.

 

SubhanAllah, what double standards. You were saying why doesnt our imams self proclaim they are divinely appointed in your last post (which they did) yet now it seems to have gone through your brain, the reasoning of why self proclaiming is not enough.

 

 

There prophethood is listed in the Qur'an in more than 400 times in every aspect which is enough for us to consider the status of 124000 prophets.

 

lol again with the double standards. That is only 400 times in the principles of prophethood, not explicitly defining which prophets or how many there were, yet you jump to believing there must be prophets that guided all of mankind before us. Then you argue why we believe in 12 imams when they are not explicitly appointed through the quran. We believe in 12 imams because imamate is clearly defined in the holy quran, and the appointment of them are defined through Muhammad A.S commanded by Allah.

 

 

1) World can not be empty without Imams. Qur'an doesn't talk about any Imam after Esa (as). However Esa (Alayhi Salam) mentions himself as the witness amongst the Israelites because he was the Prophet sent to them. It is puzzling as to why Isa (Alayhi Salam) does not mention any “Infallible Imaam” as the person who kept watch over the Children of Israel after his departure. According to the Shia faith, Isa (Alayhi Salam) did in fact appoint someone to succeed him before he left, yet there is no trace of him neither in this Ayah nor in the other Verses (such as 2:252, 19:37, etc.) that mention the problems that arose after Isa’s (Alayhi Salam) ascension.

 

You would have to prove a divinely appointed representative did not exist after the occultation of Isa A.S. Again, by the same reasoning above, just because it is not in the quran does not prove it was untrue. Is there ANY verse which proves that anything not mentioned through the quran is untrue or unimportant? Nope. Also by saying there was not any guidance after Isa A.S then you are accusing Allah of being unjust for He supposedly did not send guidance to the people during the time of Isa A.S and Muhammad A.S but we clearly know it is not the case at all, by Allah's will, as He states, (O Prophet) Lo! thou art a warner and for every community there is a guide. (Qur’an 13:7)

 

 

2) Allah appoints 12 individuals among the Progeny of Prophet to Lead Ummah and we are commanded to believe in them and follow them to achieve criteria of salvation. However Allah talks about the appointment of fallible human beings among the children of Israel which is a minor Issue as compare to imamate.

 

I do not see such a verse and you would have to prove they are fallible. You cannot just assume it, its illogical.

 

 

3) Allah uses the connotation of Imamah in a literal sense and in a divinely religious sense. That is the case no where in the Qur'an Allah uses rasool/Nabi (conveyer of Message or news) in a literal sense for Kuffars, however he uses the connotations of Imams of Kufr in a literal which only talks about the leadership of KUFR. Had it been a divine status like prophethood, Allah would deal it religiously not literally!

 

Huh? Literal vs divinely religious sense? That makes no sense what so ever lol. You just shot yourself in your own foot. So according to you, Ibrahim a.s is a leader for kuffars, astagfiullah! By the way through history and even present times we understand people have taken Gods other than Allah and prophets other than the prophets of Allah, does that defy our own religion? When Allah speaks about people taking Isa A.S as their God, does that mean we should not follow or obey Isa a.s at all? Clearly not, that would be absurd. When Allah speaks of following imams made for hell, it is speaking about taking leaders that are not appointed by Allah, who will lead mankind astray. Interpreting it any other way, just proves how nonsensical you are.

 

 

4) Holy Prophet was himself an Imam according to shia having the highest elevation of rank of Imamate (along with Nabuwaah and Risaalah). It is of extreme importance to note that when any dignitary or official in this world is addressed, he/she is referred to by the highest rank that he/she occupies.Given this criteria, it is interesting to note that the Holy Quran never addresses Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) as “Oh Imaam” or “This Imaam”. None of the places where Allah uses the word “Imaam” directly refers to Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam). Allah explicitly says that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) is indeed NO MORE THAN His Rasul and Nabi, none of them mention him as an Imaam or anything evensimilar to that.

 

Remember, just for your information again, an Imam becomes authoritative only after the completion of prophethood, and it cannot be in authority if another imam is appointed. Muhammad A.S was the leader of mankind (an Imam), after he made sure to appoint his successor (Ghadir-Kum) Ali A.S, until he passed away. Your "critera" is invalid because rationally, the word of God was being revealed to Muhammad A.S WHILE he was a prophet, therefore it is only rational he was addressed as a prophet/messenger, because he was not an Imam yet, as he was receiving revelations still. Therefore your point is moot.

 

 

5) People of the Book and Imamate: It is important to note that between the times of Musa (Alayhi Salam) and Isa (Alayhi Salam) there is more than enough evidence to prove that Imaamah as viewed in Shiaism did not exist during this period either.
 
People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making things clear to you, after a period
with no Messengers, lest you should say, ‘No one came to us bringing good news or warning.’
Someone has come to you bringing good news and a warning. Allah has power over all things.
(Quran 5:19)
 

 

 

Flawed reasoning. First of all it says after a period of no messengers, it does not imply there was not any other divinely appointed beings (non-messengers) during that period. Your just assuming it without providing evidence. Second, a messenger is one who brings a new message, ie Quran, therefore, this verse is holding the christians who chose not to accept Muhammad A.S even though Muhammad A.S came with more proof. Just as how they disbelieved the true imams (apostles) of Jesus A.S and followed paul, where as those whom followed the true imams of Jesus A.S knew of the coming of Muhammad A.S and thus were true Muslims.

 

 

The Qur'an talks about the Caliphate after Prophet Muhammed (saw) based on Emaan and AIMAAL in 24:55. This condition refutes the dogma of someone being appointed directly by Allah in the manner Allah appoints Prophets. Allah never made the promise of making anyone Prophet on the basis of EMAAN & AMAAL. This divine status has always been unconditional! So if Caliphate was divine in status like that of Prophethood then the condition of EMAAN & AMAAL would not have been mentioned by Allah.

 

Did you forget to read this part?

 

[shakir 24:55] Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors.

 

No where does it mention Shura or self appointment. All of your calipiphs, except Ali A.S and Hassan A.S, had their own flawed contradictory methods of appointing their selves through unfair and threatening methods. If you claim every ruler was chosen because God chose them (even though it is a if, then fallacy), then you must believe God made Yazid L.A as a leader as well as He mad the Pharoah L.A as His leader, as well as every other vile and hell ridden criminal who called themselves a leader. Which is blatantly absurd. Also, doing good is explicit, meaning not doing bad, meaning infallible. Clearly, your caliphs were fallible, meaning they sinned, meaning they did evil deeds, meaning they did not do good.

 

 

This verse proves there must be divinely appointed representatives (more than one) right now. How does it go along with the status of Imamte, where it is a possibility of one imamate at one time which is also absent to lead the Ummah?

 

Brother stop confusing your own self. By the arabic grammar itself, the plurality comes in regards to there being more than one divinely appointed representative through time, not at once. Meaning, the verse is regards to all periods in time who opened up a quran in their time. The verse implies there is a divinely appointed representative at all times among us, not that there is present more than one divinely appointed representative in our time. Remember, just as there were people present who were alive during more than one prophet, there were people who were alive even while more than one divinely appointed representative came after another.

 

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you (Ulul Amri MINKUM); then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

 

A great argument by Allamah Tabatabai in his http://www.almizan.org/ 4:59:

 

"Ulu'l-amr, being a plural noun, shows that there must be a number of those vested with authority, and it is correct without any doubt, but obviously it is possible for them to come one after another, and the believers would be required to obey the one who manages their affairs at a given time. Thus all of them taken together will be collectively entitled to the believers' obedience, as we say, 'Pray your compulsory prayers and obey your superiors and elders.'

 

Strangely enough, ar-Razi has objected to this idea, saying "it would mean using a plural for singular and that is contrary to a word's apparent usage." It seems he had forgotten that such usage is very common in literature, and the Qur'an itself is full of such verses. For example, So do not yield to the rejecters (68:8); So do not follow the unbelievers (25:52); surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men (33:67); and do not obey the bidding of the extravagant ones (26:151); Maintain the prayers (2:238); and make yourself gentle to the believers (15:88) and various other verses containing positive and negative statements, and having declarative as well as exclamatory sense.

 

It would be against the apparent meaning of a word if a plural were used for only a single individual; but it is not against apparent meaning if it is used for a group of individuals, in a way that it turns into a series of numerous orders. For example, we say, 'Honor the scholars of your town'; meaning: Honor this scholar, and honor that scholar, and so on.

 

Moreover, the verse has joined the Messenger and "those vested with authority" in this order; and mentions both under one obedience: "Obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you"; and the Messenger cannot order sin nor can he issue a wrong judgment. If it were possible for the ulu'l-amr to be wrong in an order or a judgment, it was highly essential to put suitable restriction on this order as far as the ulu'l-amr were concerned. Thus the only way out is to interpret this verse in its general sense without any condition or restriction. This in its turn proves that the ulu l-amr were ma'sum, sinless in the same way as the Messenger (s.a.w.) was without any difference.

 

As you have seen, the verse proves the sinlessness of the ulu'l-amr; and even those who support the above suggestion, have to admit that the verse confirms their sinlessness.

The question arises: Who among this body of influential persons is sinless? Is each of its members sinless, so that the collective body could be called sinless? Because a group is but the sum total of the individuals. But it is evident that there never was in this ummah, even for a single day, a group of influential people who had authority to jointly manage the Muslim's affairs and whose every member was sinless and free from error. Obviously, it is impossible for Allah to order us to obey a group, which had never existed in reality."

 

 

1) In case of two prophets, the authority of other can only be established in an absence of a prophet.
 
2) In case of Ulil-Amr, the authority seems established in the verse along with the authority of Prophethood/Imamate (Prophet Muhammed (saw) was an Imam according to Shia) which doesn't go align with the doctrine of Imamate.
 
3) The verse talks about the Multiple presence of authorities among believers which also doesn't go align with the Shia thoery of Imamate.

 

1. Huh?  Prophet Moses A.S in the Quran appointed Aaron A.S as a divinely appointed authority in the holy quran.

 

(Moses said: "O’ Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...,”(Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O’ Moses.”(Qur’an 20:29-36).

"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier.”(Qur’an 25:35).

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my comunity.”(Qur’an 7:142).

 

Very interesting to note, when Moses A.S left, he appointed a successor...

 

2. Addressed above

 

3. Refuted above

 

 

1) When Musa (as) left, they got misguided!
2) When Isa (as) left, he said in Qur'an after he had left them, he did have any knowledge about their condition and people went astray after him.
3) Yonus (as) left his people, Allah was annoyed with that!

 

What flawed reasoning! Are you blaming Allah for their own misguidance? The prophets being commanded to go into occulation was a command from Allah and a test upon the people. The prophets were still present, and guided their people, to the point that misguidance was only the fault of their own. So now what? Because Muhammad A.S isnt here, are you claiming that your own sunnis are misguided then? LOL

 

1. Musa A.S left because he was commanded by Allah to test his people and Aaron A.S was amongst the people hidden because the jews tried to kill him, and yet they still ended up worshiping a cow. They were given the tablets too. Therefore, your point is moot.

2. People were worshiping Isa A.S when he was still present amongst them, so this point is flawed.

3. Allah was not annoyed with that. Yonus A.S left his people because they choose not to obey him, therefore your point is flawed.

 

(wasalam)

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This is my last response to you. You are getting emotional and repeating yourself

 

Brother I apologize you, if any of my statement hurt your feelings. I repeated because instead of having a definite answer you were rejecting the correctness of my questions.

 

Before jumping towards the leadership of Prophethood let me clear you one thing:

i)              Any status attached with the status of Prophethood makes it divine not because of its own divine nature but because of the divine nature of prophethood.

ii)             Every Kingdomship is not divine in nature but the kingdomship of prophets becomes divine in nature incase of Sulayman (as) and Dawood (as) because of their prophethood.

iii)            The status of Tabeeb (health physicial) is not divine in nature unless it is attached with the divine authority of Prophethood like that of Isa (as).

Similarly according to mainstream Muslims, there is a difference between leadership of prophets and the leadership of non-prophets.

 

The overall conclusion about Imaams in the Quran

It is easy to see that the word “Imaam” does not refer to the Shia concept of Imaamah as far as the Quran is concerned. Reviewing all the cases we could see:

 

Three cases (Ayahs 15:79, 11:17, and 46:12 ) where the “Imaam” is not a human, so this cannot  refer to an “Infallible Imaam”.

 

Two more cases (Ayahs 9:12 and 28:41) where the “Imaams” are human but are evil, so again these are not “Imaams” in a Religious sense.

 

One case (Ayah 36:12) where it is generally agreed that the “Imaam” refers to a Book, the Preserved Tablet.

 

Two cases (Ayahs 28:5 and 32:24) where the Israelites have been mentioned as “Imaams”.  However, in the first case, the reference is clearly tangible material leadership on the earth. In the  second, the conditions of Imaamah in Shiaism are not met, as the appearance of the Imaams is tied  to the patience of the Israelites.

 

One instance (Ayah 25:74) that cannot refer to a Religious Imaamah because the leaders in this  case have become so due to their prayers and general good deeds, not due to Infallible protection or status.

 

One more case (Ayah 17:71) where the Sunni and Shia commentaries do not agree as to whether “Imaam” refers to a human or to a book. Even if taken as a human, no mention of Infallibility is stated (evil Imaams are also included), and the correspondence is between an “Imaam” and a  nation, rather than an “Imaam” and a period (as it should be in Shia belief).

 

One example (Ayah 21:73) where the qualities of the “Imaams” are no different from those of a normal Prophet. In addition, one of the “Imaams” (Yaqub) does not fulfill the conditions of Imaamah in Shiaism as when he traveled to Egypt under the rule of his son Yusuf, it would seem puzzling as to why Yusuf did not leave his post as King and hand it over to his father Yaqub who, according to the rules of Shiaism, would be the most able to carry out such duties. Instead, Yusuf is seen giving thanks to Allah in Qur’an.

 

The final occurrence (in Ayah 2:124) where a number of points that are inconsistent with the Quran are brought up in order to tie a “Non-Thaalim” to an Infallible.

 

Therefore, none of the occurances of the word “Imaam” in the Quran can possibly be taken to mean “Infallible Imaamah” as understood by the Shia. My conclusion in this respect was that the concept of  “Infallible Imaamah” is not harmonious with the word “Imaam” in the Quran, and that in some cases, the word serves to undermine and contradict this Shia ideology. 

 

 

 

 

Remember, just for your information again, an Imam becomes authoritative only after the completion of prophethood, and it cannot be in authority if another imam is appointed. 

This clear methodology is not proven from Qur'an or even in New & Old Testament.

 

This implies that all Shias Imams had had to go through the process of Prophethood because they became Imams. This concept attacks the finality of Prophethood.

 

 

 

 If you claim every ruler was chosen because God chose them (even though it is a if, then fallacy), then you must believe God made Yazid L.A as a leader as well as He mad the Pharoah L.A as His leader, as well as every other vile and hell ridden criminal who called themselves a leader. Which is blatantly absurd.

 

Allah gives us provisionn . Allah is Hafeez, protects us! The universe is controlled by the will of Allah.

 

And We made them Imams inviting them unto Hell fire (Al Qur'an)

 

Similary Allah will make caliphs based on Emaan and Amaal. (This refutes the dogma of Divine appointment) ... You could not negate it!

 

Allah never made prophets based on emaan and amaal! How come if caliphate is divine status be conditional on Imaan and Aamaal?

 

I WILL ADD MORE INSHAALLAH WHEN I GET THE PROPER TIME FOR THIS....  

Edited by investigating

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Leaders in Nation of Muhammad saww

 

1-   There is also an interesting tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari as well as Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said the following:

 

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

 

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would  follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

 

As the above tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari confirms, the Prophet stated that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslims as revealed to the prophet in similar manner. In fact, Quran has mentioned the stories of the Children of Israel to give us a way to understand the true history of Islam itself.

 

2-There are many striking similarities in this regard written in Quran including the similarities of the leaders and the similarities of the people.

 

Few of them are given here.  Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا .

"Surely Allah aforetime took a covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them" (Quran 5:12) 

 

“Who are those TWELVE leaders among the Children of Muhammad (PBUH&HF)?”

 

3-  Allah, Exalted, also said:

 

"And when Moses prayed for water for his (thirsty) people; We said: 'Strike the rock with your staff.' Then from there surged forth TWELVE springs so that each group knew its own place to drink." (Quran 2:60).

 

-   Who are those twelve springs (streams) of knowledge who quench the thirst of Muslims to the end of the world so that each generation is utilized with one of them?  He, Exalted He is, also said:

 

4- "We divided them into TWELVE nations.  We directed Moses by revelation when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: 'Strike the rock with your staff;' out of it there gushed forth twelve springs so that each group  knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds and sent down to them manna and quails (saying): 'Eat of the good things We have provided for you,' (but they rebelled.) To Us they did no harm but  they harmed their own souls." (Quran 7:160).

 

Verily those who did not follow those TWELVE leaders, harmed non but themselves. The above verse suggests that the nation of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) in the span of history (after his demise till the day of judgment) are divided into 12 intervals of time which coincides with one Imam who is assigned as leader for them. 

 

5- In the next verse Allah said:

 

"And when it was said unto them: 'Dwell in this Town and eat therein as you wish, and say Repentance, and enter the Gate (of the city) in a posture of humility, in order that We forgive you your sins and increase  (the portion of) those who do good.'" (Quran 7:161)

or:

"And when We said: 'Enter this Town and eat of the plenty therein as you wish; but enter the Gate (of the City) with humility in posture and in words so that We forgive you your sins and increase (the portion of) those  who do good.'" (Quran 2:58).

 

The Gate in the above verses has a striking similarity with one of the attributes of Imam Ali  mentioned by our Prophet (PBUH&HF) that is: "The Gate of the City of Knowledge."

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

 

Sunni references:

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226

- Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

 

and many more...

 

6- Furthermore the following Prophetic tradition gives the utmost similarity with the above two verses:

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "My Ahlul-Bait are like the Gate of Repentance of the Children of Israel; whoever entered therein was forgiven."

  

Sunni References:

- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haithami, v9, p168.

- al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani, Tradition #18

- Arba'in, by al-Nabahani, p216

- A fairly similar tradition reported by al-Darqunti and by Ibn Hajar al-Haithami in al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, Ch. 9, section 2, p193, in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Ali is the Gate of Repentance, whoever entered therein was a believer and whoever went out was an unbeliever."

 

7- Also Allah swt stated in Quran:

 

Lo! The number of the months with Allah is TWELVE which is Allah's ordinance when He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. That is the firm religion. So wrong not your souls in them. (Quran9:36)

 

The other meaning (as interpreted by Ahlul-Bait) is that the Prophet in his last pilgrimage (less than three month before his demise) wanted to convey that he will be followed by twelve Imams and people should not wrong their souls by disobeying them in their leadership periods. Among these twelve Imams, four have  a sacred name, i.e., "Ali", which is derived from the name of Allah. In fact, four Imams of Ahlul-Bait (peace be upon them all) have been named "Ali".

 

In the Sira of Ibn Hisham, there is an extra sentence of the Messenger of Allah which is, in fact, the verse of Quran. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said:

 

"'Postponement of a sacred month is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled; they allow it one year and forbid it another year that they may make up the number of months which God has hallowed so that they permit what God has forbidden  (Quran 9:37), and forbid what God has allowed. Time has completed its cycle and is as it was on the day that God created the heavens and the earth. The number of  months with God is twelve. Four of them are sacred."

 

Sunni references:

- Sira, by Ibn Hisham at the end of Chapter of "Farewell Pilgrimage", p968

- The Life of Muhammad (English translation of Sira Ibn Hisham), Translated into English by A. Guillaume, 1955 Edition, London, p651

 

8- In a tradition on the  authority of Jabir , Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, the fifth Imam of Ahlul-Bait, interprets the above verse which is as follows:

 

Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36)." He  breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The 'year' is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), and his family are its 'months' who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of 'four sacred who are the firm religion' are those four who have the same name, and are Ali, the Commander of Faithful , and my father Ali Ibn al-Husain , and later Ali Ibn Musa , and Ali Ibn Muhammad . Thus acknowledging these four is 'the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them' and believe in all of them to be guided."

 

Shi'i reference: Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi.

 

9-   O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you (by Allah). (4:59)

 

On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Quran in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr,  al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari :

 

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (PBUH&HF): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"

 

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams (leaders) of Muslims  after me.  The first of them is Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husain; then  Ali son of al-Husain; then Muhammad son of Ali who has been mentioned 'al-Baqir' in the Torah (the old testament).  O Jabir! You will meet him. When  you see him, convey my greetings to him.  He will be succeeded by his son, Ja'far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja'far; then Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of Ali; then Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."

 

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?" The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know." (Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

 

Now that we know who "those vested with authority" are, it is evident that the question of obeying tyrant and unjust rulers does not rise at all. Muslims are not required by the above verse to obey rulers who may be unjust, tyrannical, ignorant, and selfish and sunk in debauchery. They are, in fact, ordered to obey the specified Twelve Imams, all of whom were sinless and free from evil thoughts and deeds. Obeying them has no risks whatsoever.  Nay, it protects from all risks; because they will never give an order against the order of Allah and will treat all human beings with love, justice, and equity.

 

10- From the history of the Children of Israel we further get the following:

 

And he (Pharoah) was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us. (28:40)

 

So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how the end of the wrongdoers was. (28:41)

 

And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped. (28:42)

 

And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised.(28:43)

 

So the leaders who may lead to hell fire should not be followed.

 

11- Now the Quran also mentions the identification of those leaders as quoted by Quran in the following verse:

 

 

. وَقَارُونَ وَفِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ ۖ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَهُم مُّوسَىٰ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَا كَانُوا سَابِقِينَ

 

And [We destroyed] Qarun and Pharaoh and Haman. And Moses had already come to them with clear evidences, and they were arrogant in the land, but they were not out runners [of Our punishment].  (29:39) 

 

The Pharoah and his companions were declared leaders inviting to hell fireThey along-with their followers were drowned in the sea and destroyed by Allah swt.

 

12- The Quran mentions here the names of 3 top leaders from the Children of Israel that include: QarunPharoah andHaman who led these people.

 

The Pharoah was the ruler, Haman was his adviser and the Qarun was rich.

 

This serves as reminder for the people in the Nation of Muhammad saww.

 

 Conclusion;

 

Thus lt makes it clear that we should follow 12 Imams / leaders from Ahl albayat as to avoid going astray according to the prophet sayings they are not separable from Quran. They will certainly reach the pool of paradise, and their followers will also be successful.

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1) In case of two prophets, the authority of other can only be established in an absence of a prophet.
 
2) In case of Ulil-Amr, the authority seems established in the verse along with the authority of Prophethood/Imamate (Prophet Muhammed (saw) was an Imam according to Shia) which doesn't go align with the doctrine of Imamate.
 
3) The verse talks about the Multiple presence of authorities among believers which also doesn't go align with the Shia thoery of Imamate.

 

1. Huh?  Prophet Moses A.S in the Quran appointed Aaron A.S as a divinely appointed authority in the holy quran.

 

(Moses said: "O’ Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...,”(Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O’ Moses.”(Qur’an 20:29-36).

"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier.”(Qur’an 25:35).

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my comunity.”(Qur’an 7:142).

 

Very interesting to note, when Moses A.S left, he appointed a successor...

 

So that's what I meant: "Haroon (as)'s authority was in the absence of Musa (as)" .. However the verse is suggesting referring to "Ulil-Amr" and/OR Prophet (saw) at the same time? The application of verse doesn't work at the time of Prophet Muhammed (saw) in his presence.

 

How can I obey the Ulul-Amr of our time without going through any mean of FALLIBLE AUTHORITIES?

 

 

 

 

1) When Musa (as) left, they got misguided!
2) When Isa (as) left, he said in Qur'an after he had left them, he did have any knowledge about their condition and people went astray after him.
3) Yonus (as) left his people, Allah was annoyed with that!

 

What flawed reasoning! Are you blaming Allah for their own misguidance? The prophets being commanded to go into occulation was a command from Allah and a test upon the people. The prophets were still present, and guided their people, to the point that misguidance was only the fault of their own. So now what? Because Muhammad A.S isnt here, are you claiming that your own sunnis are misguided then? LOL

 

1. Musa A.S left because he was commanded by Allah to test his people and Aaron A.S was amongst the people hidden because the jews tried to kill him, and yet they still ended up worshiping a cow. They were given the tablets too. Therefore, your point is moot.

2. People were worshiping Isa A.S when he was still present amongst them, so this point is flawed.

3. Allah was not annoyed with that. Yonus A.S left his people because they choose not to obey him, therefore your point is flawed.

 

Brother did you NOT notice that I am only putting my points considering the supposition of Shiite's own theory of Imamate which demands the tangible leadership of infallible in every age unlike SUNNIS? : )

 

1.) Let's discuss Musa (as) situation with the occultation of your present Imam

 

He left his people by the will of Allah and appointed HIS deputy (WHO WAS A PROPHET) in the presence of his people...

 

Your 12th Imam supposedly went into the occultation without appointing any DEPUTY TO TAKE CARE of the affairs of people temporally and spritually?

 

2.) ISA (as) occultation vs your 12th Imam occultation

 

ISA (as) according to Qur'an would say to Allah (swt) that he was unaware of what people did after he had left them (in occultation)? If you compare this occultation with your occulation of Imam, it would imply that your Imam is unaware as well leaving the entire Ummah misguided? Hence defying the purpose of Imamate?

 

3.) Yunus (as) leaving his people was not in accordance with the pleasure of Allah.

 

And (remember) Yúnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never have power over him (naqdira). Then he called in the darkness [of night, sea, and fish]: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of the unjust (¨alimeen).

 

So this supposition would not fit with your supposition of occultation of your Imam!

 

The objective of Imamah is to follow and be led by Infallible Imam DIRECTLY as a DEFINITE MEAN to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)? How on the earth 12er Shia Explains the fulfillment of the Imamah's objective when they are having to follow & consult FALLIBLE(S) (books, narrators, ayatullahs, history) for more than 1200 years to establish their deen?

 

Regards!

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Salam Alaikum Sister, you've done the right thing by doing your own research rather than believing everything your told by the sunni brothers. Your story is very similar to mines, I reverted 7 months ago and took shahada at a sunni mosque, it wasn't until they were teaching me some things that I started to question the sunni hadiths, like how the name abu huraira kept popping up constantly and names like aisha, abu bakr, umar etc,etc but very, very rarely the names, ali (a.s) or hassan (a.s) or husain (a.s)

When I looked into things more I realised I was following the hadiths of abu huraira, over the story's of rusoolula's (pbuh) family (a.s) if you read into the history of the imams and their fights against the oppressors you'll get a real appreciation and love for what they have done for mankind. Each and everyone of them was assasinated, either by the sword or poisoning.

Muawiyah is suspected to be responsible for hasan's (a.s) poisoning, muawiyah is mentioned in bukhari nearly 70 times, never in a bad way either, even though there is historical evidence of him disliking hasan because he wanted his son to take over the caliphate. His son yazid, then beheaded husain (a.s)

Their stories are truly heart breaking and their hadith narrations full of wisdom, alhamdullila. All the best with your search sister, may Allah (swt) guide us all to the straight way. Ameen.

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So that's what I meant: "Haroon (as)'s authority was in the absence of Musa (as)" .. However the verse is suggesting referring to "Ulil-Amr" and/OR Prophet (saw) at the same time? The application of verse doesn't work at the time of Prophet Muhammed (saw) in his presence.

How can I obey the Ulul-Amr of our time without going through any mean of FALLIBLE AUTHORITIES?

Brother did you NOT notice that I am only putting my points considering the supposition of Shiite's own theory of Imamate which demands the tangible leadership of infallible in every age unlike SUNNIS? : )

1.) Let's discuss Musa (as) situation with the occultation of your present Imam

He left his people by the will of Allah and appointed HIS deputy (WHO WAS A PROPHET) in the presence of his people...

Your 12th Imam supposedly went into the occultation without appointing any DEPUTY TO TAKE CARE of the affairs of people temporally and spritually?

2.) ISA (as) occultation vs your 12th Imam occultation

ISA (as) according to Qur'an would say to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì that he was unaware of what people did after he had left them (in occultation)? If you compare this occultation with your occulation of Imam, it would imply that your Imam is unaware as well leaving the entire Ummah misguided? Hence defying the purpose of Imamate?

3.) Yunus (as) leaving his people was not in accordance with the pleasure of Allah.

And (remember) Yúnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never have power over him (naqdira). Then he called in the darkness [of night, sea, and fish]: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of the unjust (¨alimeen).

So this supposition would not fit with your supposition of occultation of your Imam!

The objective of Imamah is to follow and be led by Infallible Imam DIRECTLY as a DEFINITE MEAN to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)? How on the earth 12er Shia Explains the fulfillment of the Imamah's objective when they are having to follow & consult FALLIBLE(S) (books, narrators, ayatullahs, history) for more than 1200 years to establish their deen?

Regards!

Mashallah some very very very valid points

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So that's what I meant: "Haroon (as)'s authority was in the absence of Musa (as)" .. However the verse is suggesting referring to "Ulil-Amr" and/OR Prophet (saw) at the same time? The application of verse doesn't work at the time of Prophet Muhammed (saw) in his presence.

 

How can I obey the Ulul-Amr of our time without going through any mean of FALLIBLE AUTHORITIES?

 

 

Brother did you NOT notice that I am only putting my points considering the supposition of Shiite's own theory of Imamate which demands the tangible leadership of infallible in every age unlike SUNNIS? : )

 

1.) Let's discuss Musa (as) situation with the occultation of your present Imam

 

He left his people by the will of Allah and appointed HIS deputy (WHO WAS A PROPHET) in the presence of his people...

 

Your 12th Imam supposedly went into the occultation without appointing any DEPUTY TO TAKE CARE of the affairs of people temporally and spritually?

 

2.) ISA (as) occultation vs your 12th Imam occultation

 

ISA (as) according to Qur'an would say to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì that he was unaware of what people did after he had left them (in occultation)? If you compare this occultation with your occulation of Imam, it would imply that your Imam is unaware as well leaving the entire Ummah misguided? Hence defying the purpose of Imamate?

 

3.) Yunus (as) leaving his people was not in accordance with the pleasure of Allah.

 

And (remember) Yúnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never have power over him (naqdira). Then he called in the darkness [of night, sea, and fish]: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of the unjust (¨alimeen).

 

So this supposition would not fit with your supposition of occultation of your Imam!

 

The objective of Imamah is to follow and be led by Infallible Imam DIRECTLY as a DEFINITE MEAN to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)? How on the earth 12er Shia Explains the fulfillment of the Imamah's objective when they are having to follow & consult FALLIBLE(S) (books, narrators, ayatullahs, history) for more than 1200 years to establish their deen?

 

Regards!

 

Well put brother.

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The objective of Imamah is to follow and be led by Infallible Imam DIRECTLY as a DEFINITE MEAN to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)? 

 

 

As You cannot obey Allah without following the prophet who has informed the companions and even the disbelievers that Allah is one. He should be obeyed. He is the last messenger of Allah, The revelations comes to him though angels. All angels are infallibles. He told his followers to write down the revelations in the form of book known as book of Allah. Imam Ali wrote the revelations in (Book .e quran) order that were revealed. Although It was rejected by tyrant rulers.

 

So it is need of the religion to reach to Allah and the prophet through the means most suitably the Ahl abayt as. How can you reach an infallible prophet or blemish free the Creator Allah who is Adil without any means?

 

If you cannot do so why you are trying to impose on us with salafi beliefs that Quran is sufficient for us alone without any guide or Imam?

 

You belief to follow Kitab Allah and the prophet Sunna then what is the mean you adopt? Are you more knowledgeable to disregard the prophet saying and making your own interpretation?

 

Quran just makes the guide lines for the religion and the prophet and imams make interpretation of those. Follower has to obey them yes or no?

 

 

Which verse of Quran states that we should not follow the prophet? What is the mean you adopt now to follow him? There is difference of more than 1400 years between you and him. How can you do so? 

 

Following the prophet sunna  through Ahl albayt (including 12 Imams ) is our belief duly supported by hadith thaqlain, verse of wilaya, verse of ghadeer (to complete the religion), verse of purification, even you disregard all of them it is your own choice to follow the verse of quran and hadith or not. 

 

 

How on the earth 12er Shia Explains the fulfillment of the Imamah's objective when they are having to follow & consult FALLIBLE(S) (books, narrators, ayatullahs, history) for more than 1200 years to establish their deen?

 

Regards!

 

You are totally misunderstood, as I have explained earlier you need means to reach  the creator Allah, the prophet and Ahl albayt ( who are Infallible). To follow Ahl albayt we adopt the means of verse of Quran, prophet sayings and sayings from Ahl albayat. 

 

Your question has the following parts.

 

Do you consider Allah the creator is blemish free? Yes or no?

Do you consider Allah is Adil? yes or no?

Do you consider the prophet was sent to explain the verse of quran? yes or no?

Do you consider we should follow Infallible prophet saw to whom revelations were sent from Allah swt through infallible angels? Yes or no?

Do you believe that the 12 Imams (infallibles) from the progeny of infallible prophet Muhammad saww sent by the creator Allah swt? Yes or no?

Who is twelfth imam as per sunni traditions? Do you follow twelfth imam? Yes or no?

Do you consider that the Islamic laws are explained by the prophet and Quran mentions the guide lines only? Yes or no?

Do you understand that the concept of divine imam has been mentioned in many verse of Quran? Yes or no?

Do you consider that the guided imams are assigned by Allah ? Yes or no?

And there are imam leading to hell fire as quoted in the verses of Quran with their names? Yes or no?

I* await your reply to go ahead any further.

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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@skamran110

Before you post any reply, please read the posts carefully to understand the crux of my question "BASED ON SHIITE THEOLOGY"..

 

Your attitude of countering questions related to "Sunnism" implies that you have no explanation for "Shia'ism" when it comes to guidance function of your present day Imam!

 

OR you could not grasp the crux of my argument which has nothing to do with proving Sunni Islam to be true but rather it has to inquire if purpose of foundation of Shia'ism i.e. Imamah fulfills its objective for our Shia Brothers or NOT?

 

To make it more clear & simple, PLEASE MAKE A SUPPOSITION while you plan to reply me:

 

 

Suppose I am a Non-Muslim who has been invited by a Shia brother to accept (shia version of) Islam based on the fact that I will be following Allah & HIS Rasool (saw) through their INFALLIBLE IMAMS. I am further convinced not to adopt the Sunni version of Islam as they have relied on fallible personalities to follow Allah & HIS Rasool (saw) ...

 

Now based on the above supposition I am repeating my question over here:

 

The objective of Imamah is to follow and be led by Infallible Imam DIRECTLY as a DEFINITE MEAN to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw)... How on the earth 12er Shia Explains the fulfillment of the Imamah's objective when they are having to follow & consult FALLIBLE(S) (books, narrators, ayatullahs, history) for more than 1200 years to establish their deen?

 

 

 

As You cannot obey Allah without following the prophet who has informed the companions and even the disbelievers that Allah is one. He should be obeyed. He is the last messenger of Allah, The revelations comes to him though angels. All angels are infallibles. He told his followers to write down the revelations in the form of book known as book of Allah. Imam Ali wrote the revelations in (Book .e quran) order that were revealed. Although It was rejected by tyrant rulers.

 

This argument has nothing to do with the supposition of my question. Which I am having to admit for the sake of argument.

 

 

So it is need of the religion to reach to Allah and the prophet through the means most suitably the Ahl abayt as. How can you reach an infallible prophet or blemish free the Creator Allah who is Adil without any means?

 

If you cannot do so why you are trying to impose on us with salafi beliefs that Quran is sufficient for us alone without any guide or Imam?

 

You belief to follow Kitab Allah and the prophet Sunna then what is the mean you adopt? Are you more knowledgeable to disregard the prophet saying and making your own interpretation?

 

Quran just makes the guide lines for the religion and the prophet and imams make interpretation of those. Follower has to obey them yes or no?

 

 

Which verse of Quran states that we should not follow the prophet? What is the mean you adopt now to follow him? There is difference of more than 1400 years between you and him. How can you do so? 

 

Following the prophet sunna  through Ahl albayt (including 12 Imams ) is our belief duly supported by hadith thaqlain, verse of wilaya, verse of ghadeer (to complete the religion), verse of purification, even you disregard all of them it is your own choice to follow the verse of quran and hadith or not. 

 

I am not rejecting any MEAN brother. I am just proposing my argument If I were invited to embrace Shia version of Islam:

 

i) Either Qur'an was enough and direct about the Dogma of Shia Imams commanding me to wait for my current Imam and giving me the criteria to: "How to follow AhlelBayt without the presence of my current Imam" without any addition of commentary, tafsir or tradition narrated by fallible.

 

ii) OR There must be tangible infallible Imam present to lead the Ummah, convincing us to believe in HIS divine status based on his extra ordinary skills, divine efficiency and HIS extra ordinary knowledge of the book of Allah & Hadith. The way you (being a fallible) interpret the Sunni version of Qur'an and Hadith (both narrated from fallible humans) to prove Shia Imamah will have no consideration for me unless done by Infallible Himself to establish the foundation of Islam.

 

I have been convinced by my Shia brothers to become a Shia because of Hadith of Thaqlain, verse of Wilayah and verse of Ghadeer, verse of Purification, HOWEVER:

 

i) All Shia sects believe in above instances yet they are divided based on their list of version of Imams.

 

ii) Sunni school of thought interprets them in a way that it doesn't convince them to revise their list of fundamental article of faith and add a new article of faith of Imamah as a 12er Shia holds.

 

 

 

 

You are totally misunderstood, as I have explained earlier you need means to reach  the creator Allah, the prophet and Ahl albayt ( who are Infallible). To follow Ahl albayt we adopt the means of verse of Quran, prophet sayings and sayings from Ahl albayat.

 

I don't reject the Means. 

 

Sunni school of thought considers the companions of the prophet & family of the prophet (wives, daughter & her husband, grandsons etc) and their chain of students till today as MEANS to follow Allah and His Rasool (saw). Shia disagrees with their MEANS being FALLIBLE in nature.

 

However when I see the methodology of Shia brothers to follow Allah & His Rasool (saw), despite of their theory of Imamate which demands the tangible leadership of an infallible at all time to lead Ummah, they are having to rely:

  • Fallible companions of their past Imams.
  • Historical accounts compiled by fallible people.
  • Fallible interpretation of Qur'an made by their Fallible scholars, sometimes attributed to infallible imams BUT through the chain of fallible narrators.
  • Fallible Ayatullahs, Marjaas etc.

If the same course of methodology is adopted by our Shia brothers, then what is the use of doctrine of Imamate?

 

To follow Ahl albayt we adopt the means of verse of Quran, prophet sayings and sayings from Ahl albayat.

 

All compiled and narrated by FALLIBLE authorities?

 

Can you show me up a single tradition of Shia by Prophet Muhammed (saw) narrated by Ali (ra) then the narration goes down till 11th Imam (at least) without any intervention of a fallible person in between the chain?

 

If there was such a narration and if someone demands the 12th Imam to be the last of the narrator, wouldn't that make sense as well?

 

Next time when you bring up the post, please don't start countering me questions by considering me a Sunni but a Non-Muslim seeking the validity of Shia Islam based on their own Dogma of Imamate.

 

May Allah guide us all!

Edited by investigating

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In my view the Twelve Imams were the divinely appointed leaders of their day, being righteous and pure. They each served their community in true Shi'i fashion; they covenanted with their communities and protected them, just as the Prophet had done. Many lineages have existed, some longer than others, but each of them that followed the Prophet's example were rightly guided and infallible. Their infallibility is because from birth they were reared for the Imamat, its principles and responsibilities, and they took on the mindset of caretaker over their community when it came time. Humbly, I would like to put out there the notion that every occulted imam has passed away since extensive lifespans do not exist. We must therefore find in other saints that same inspiration which guided saints past. The bickering over hierarchy and intricacies of each dogma is rather funny because one dogma can't be proven over another. Everyone seems to be playing both judge and advocate; such a method doesn't really get anywhere.

Only when we apply the scientific method do things get interesting, so I'll add:

Addressing the brother's question about Mahdi and his ability to guide mankind when occulted: Let's examine with the scientific method the hypothesis that Muhammad b. Hasan al-Mahdi AS has remained alive and will until an appointed time. We have a hypothesis and now comes the gathering of data. At this stage no scientific data credits this hypothesis and it becomes clear Mahdi's occultation is taken on faith, and faith cannot be right or wrong. Can we blame anyone for not having faith in what we have faith in?

Scientifically analyzing Islam is the best thing since sliced bread!

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One who misguides us has been living even before Adam(as).

 

Prophet Noah(as) lived a very long live.

 

Quran describes people of the Cave slept  for 300+ years.(Surah Al-Kahf)

 

Muslims believe that there are two prophets still alive.

 

Prophet Isa(as) was taken up and  will return.

 

Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) was taken up and brought back-(Surah Night Journey)

 

Allah(swt) is capable for all things.

 

Why would you doubt that its not possible?

 

If you say, Science, - well, please ask the science god!

 

In Theory, if you manage oxidation-/free radical- cause of damage in human cell- 

 

Bodies buried in iceage-a preserved.

 

Organ transplant from an accident victim to hospital for new patient- under right/controlled condition we can expend the normal live on an human organ outside hi/her body.

 

Combination of all factors /under right condition- can we keep a human alive - is it possible - yes

 

Science does believe in parallel universe, Theory of relativity - read up on travel at speed of light and aging.

 

 

Virgin Mary(sa) became pregnant without a physical touch(You would not comprehend it then, but you do know now).

 

Prophet isa(as) gave sight to blind (You know now, there are stem cells in human that can build new organs).

 

World looks and feels with different wavelength - Infrared, gamma ray, microwave , thermal(google picture to see how the earth/world will look to you, and what you will see if your eyes were set differently. You see what is required for you to see, other things are hidden from you.(there is veil). Its on need to know basis, and we don’t need to know now. look through night vision using thermal /body heat, see how a human looks like? Try looking at another person wearing X-Ray glasses. The way you see other humans is what is intended for you, not that there are no other possibilities.

 

If you were told few hundred years back that there are living things on the palm of your hands you would not believe / comprehend,(microscopic world before Microscope.)

 

You could really understand outer space without advance telescopes.

 

Science has to believe in the unseen- Observable Universe has gigantic gaps between galaxies - dark matter - we don't know- but something is there-

 

 

So, what you can’t comprehend now, doesn't mean its not possible. Its just not possible for you to understand/comprehend at this time.

 

 

[2:1] A.L.M.

[ 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

[2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

 

Veils will be removed as needed.

--------------
Edited by S.M.H.A.

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1. One who misguides us has been living even before Adam(as).

2. Prophet Noah(as) lived a very long live.

3. Quran describes people of the Cave slept  for 300+ years.(Surah Al-Kahf)

4. Muslims believe that there are two prophets still alive. 

5. Prophet Isa(as) was taken up and  will return. 

6. Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) was taken up and brought back-(Surah Night Journey)

Allah(swt) is capable for all things. Why would you doubt that its not possible?

Let me be clear, my faith does not consist of believing in legend and that is because legend has no validity. You can't verify legend. You say such-and-such happened? Prove it with supporting data (beyond the original source). Can you?

When it comes to matters of religion I cannot take someone's word for it. I rely on the tool of science.

 

If you say, Science, - well, please ask the science god!

Are you telling me you don't agree with the scientific method, which is the essence of science?

What don't you agree with?

1. Ask a question

2. Research your topic

3. State your hypothesis

4. TEST YOUR HYPOTHESIS

5. ANALYZE THE DATA

6. Report your results

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A)  Are you a Muslim? (Yes/No)

 

B ) Do you believe in.2:2-3(Yes/No)

 

[2:1] A.L.M.

[ 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

[2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

 

-----------

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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Are you telling me you don't agree with the scientific method, which is the essence of science?

What don't you agree with?

1. Ask a question

2. Research your topic

3. State your hypothesis

4. TEST YOUR HYPOTHESIS

5. ANALYZE THE DATA

6. Report your results

Science is shirk. The only scientific method we need is the following:

1. State your hypothesis

2. Behead those that disagree with your hypothesis

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A)  Are you a Muslim? (Yes/No)

 

B ) Do you believe in.2:2-3(Yes/No)

 

[2:1] A.L.M.

[ 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

[2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

 

-----------

A. Yes

B. Yes

What's your point?

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@Investigating:

 

Your post is replied as under:

 

1-      No one is trying anybody to change his belief nor any Shia is inviting any non muslin to become Shi it’s a misconception. The objective is to share view in the light of Quran, hadith And sayings of   Ahl albayt as,.

 

2-Quran: This was compiled by the order of the prophet saww  and  written on the available materials at that time.  It was not written down by Allah thyself still it is considered the word of Allah sawt The prophet has managed it. Infallible Angels have brought it. This is belied of Muslims. But the Christians and Jews object on its compilation process that the words of Allah were not written by Allah himself. Which is certainly condemned from all Muslims, this salafi thought to please their Christian and jews masters is condemned. The similar theology is being presented here to make a comparison for guided Imams. The religion ie islam stands only, because of believers we follow that it has been revealed by Allah swt and protected by him (as quoted in the verse of Quran). So it is matter of belief that keeps us on the faith.

 

3-The sayings of the prophets are written down not by the prophet himself, as the prophet has to obey in all the circumstances, the hadith are to be verified in the light of Quran and if found against Quran are rejected.  The same principle is applied to follow the prophet. This is belief of believers.

 

4-The sayings of Ahl albayt on the same principle are applied to be followed. If we follow the Quran as it is words of Allah and protected by him then those who are not separated by the Quran are also protected. The verse of purifications makes it clear. The same way applies to follow the sayings of the Ahl albayt as it is the belief of believers.

 

5-      Now here we quote Imam Ali is the gate of the city of knowledge and we have compilation of his sermons, and letters in form Nehjul Balagha. Also we have from Imam Ali bin Husain named as Sahifa Sajjadiya. The  fallible caliphs do not have such scholary work.

 

6-      The Shia are not divded into sects 12er still follow 12 imams that you quote in many posts yourself. However I also find sunni divided on the basis of Imams like Hanbali, Shafi, Malki, Hanfi even the all claims to be the followers of 4 caliphs. They just stop at four against the prophet saying of 12 caliphs from their own sources. In history the count of such caliphs is unlimited from the 1st caliph to the King Abdullah, and others???

 

7-      No one is here to prove the basis of imamat it has been kept in the verse of Quran and the prophet himself has proven through his sayings on many occasions available in sunni soucrres.  The believers are to follow, Brother PureEthichs has made a great effort in his posts. All the people cannot be convinced to the doctrine of Immamah or the right path and the prophet is said to convey his messages to the believers alone?

 

8-      Shia disagrees to the method of selection adopted after the prophet ie choosing himself a person as caliph against the quranic principles and calling him the caliph appointed by Allah. Whatever the means are adopted those are verified in the light of Quran, prophet sayings and  and Ahl albayat as they acre never separated and the fallible caliphs are no where standing with the Quran.

 

9-      As already explained in the post no 53, in the light of quran that history of the children of Israel will be repeated into nations of the Muhamamd. All the verses clarify that we should look for the twelve leaders, twelve month, twelve springs etc. And it is duly clarified THEREIN that imams leaders leading to hell fire are 3 top leaders who came against the prophet Musa and Haroon. Why the Quran has mentioned the names of only 3 leaders and all the companions following those were drowned? Could you please give your analysis on it you do have from your own sources that Imam Ali has same relation to the prophet as that Haroon to Musa. Since you do regard prophet sunna.

 

10-   I still await the Answers of my question asked under post no 53 to get the discussion to some conclusion

 

11-   I still want to add the following:

 

WHO WILL Allah MAKES SUCCESSORS IN THE LAND?

 

·         He who guides to the truth, is he worthier to be followed, or he who guides not unless he is guided? What then ails you, how you judge?’ Yunus, 10:35

 

So who guided the ahl al-bayt and the shia imams?

 

·         So question the People of Remembrance, if you do not know’ an-Nahl,16:43 and al-Anbiya’, 21:7

·         Are they equal – those who know and those who know not?’Only men possessed of minds remember.’ Az-Zumar, 39:9

 

·         ‘’…The night of fore-ordaining is better than a thousand months. In it the angels and the ruh descend, by the leave of their Lord, upon every command. Peace it is, till the rising of the dawn.’ Al-Qadr, 97

 

So Allah sent the angels to muhammed (SAW) and if after him Allah does not apoint a khlaifah or an Imam who cant the angels descend to?

 

·         ‘Ha Mim. By the clear book. We have sent it down in a blessed night – we are EVER warning – therein every wise command determined as a command from Us – We are EVER sending’ ad-Dhukan 44:1-5

 

Allah is EVER sending to whom if there is no khalifah or imam appointed by Allah?

 

·         And none know its true hermeneutic interpretation, save only Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge: Al-Imran, 3:7

 

Allah says none knows its interpretation except those firmly rooted in knowledge. Does this mean those who need to be guided or those who do not need to be guided by others?

 

·         Answer: ‘Nay; rather it is clear signs in the breast of those who have been given the knowledge.’ Al-Ankabut, 29:4

 

So the Quran clearly says Only Allah appoints a khalifha or an imam. Only Allah appoints the successor of a prophet. Knowledge is put in the breasts by Allah. Only they know the proper interpretation of the Quran. The angels descend to them not to anyone.


Allah sends and is EVER sending to the ones He has chosen for guiding mankind.

 

Are these views from the shia or the Quran?

 

These are the verses of the Quran.

 

·         Does the Quran say choose your own leader and call him Allah's caliph or Imam?

·         Does the Quran say they have complete knowldge of the Qurans interpretation?

·         Does the Quran say the angels descend to them?

·         Does Allah send the ruh and the angles to them on layla tul-Qadr?

·         Does Allah say the ones people choose are firmly rooted in knowledge?

·         Does Allah say he made them thoroughly pure?

·         Does Allah say be obedient to them because they are the ones who give charity while they bow down in salah?

Is the prophet chosen by Shura? If nor how ummah can choose his successor?

 

 

·         So do the hadiths say Abu bakr was chosen by Allah or by the Prophet order (SAW)? Nope.

 

·         So who did Allah appoint and choose or did Allah leave the people to become confused about the shairah and fiqh and the interpretation of the Quran after revealing it?

 

·         Does the Quran speak to tell the people about all knowledge it contains so there is no confusion? If not then who speaks on behalf of Allah after Muhammed(SAW)?

 

·         Allah appointed the khulafah and the Imams before Muhammed (SAW) and did he continue this or just leave it after muhammed (SAW) and the best religion so people will deviate like the other nations of the prophets

 

We can see by only looking at the Quran what the answer is, so we must find whom Allah chose when Allah's precedent has already been made clear in the Quran.

Edited by skamran110

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Addressing the brother's question about Mahdi and his ability to guide mankind when occulted: Let's examine with the scientific method the hypothesis that Muhammad b. Hasan al-Mahdi AS has remained alive and will until an appointed time. We have a hypothesis and now comes the gathering of data. At this stage no scientific data credits this hypothesis and it becomes clear Mahdi's occultation is taken on faith, and faith cannot be right or wrong. Can we blame anyone for not having faith in what we have faith in?

 

May Allah bless you for your effort to proselytize me in this issue.

 

I am not attacking my Shia brothers in regard of having blind faith on their present Imam. 

 

I was making arguments supposing myself to be a non-Muslim who is being convinced to accept Shia version of Islam based on the principle of following Infallible Imam without any intervention of FALLIBLE HUMAN BEINGS.

 

Actually it is our Shia brothers who make the argument: “How is it possible that Allah would leave his Ummah without a divine leader?” And they categorically state that it would indeed not be possible for Allah to leave his Ummah leaderless after the death of the Prophet.

 

Wouldn't it be fair for me to ask the next relevant question, which is: “Where is this divine leader now?” Where is the Infallible Imam today? To this, the Shia will respond: “Oh, he has been hidden for more than 1,000 years and will come out near the end of the world.” Nice!

 

Imam means “leader;” how can a person be led when the leader is not contactable and accessible? Nobody has had direct contact with the Imam Mahdi during his Greater Occcultation which has lasted over 1,000 years. So what is the point of all this debate?

 

The Shia believe in Imamah and accuse the Ahlus Sunnah of not having a leadership system; well, at the end of the day, we all ended up at the same point, didn’t we? The Shia had no leadership system up until the Iranian Revolution, and the Irani system of “Wilayat ul-Faqih” (the current leadership system in Iran) is nothing but a man-made system in certain scholars do Shurah (mutual consultation) in order to elect a leader for them. The main pillar of Shi’ism is that we need a divinely appointed Imam and the leadership of the Muslims is divinely appointed. Without this pillar and buttress, the entire faith of Shi’ism collapses on itself. 

 

I am disappointed that no one among my Shia brothers have quoted my points for any kind of relative explanation I made to Brother Kamran.

May Allah guide the entire Ummah!

 

@Investigating:

 

Your post is replied as under:

 

1-      No one is trying anybody to change his belief nor any Shia is inviting any non muslin to become Shi it’s a misconception. The objective is to share view in the light of Quran, hadith And sayings of   Ahl albayt as,.

 

2-Quran: This was compiled by the order of the prophet saww  and  written on the available materials at that time.  It was not written down by Allah thyself still it is considered the word of Allah sawt The prophet has managed it. Infallible Angels have brought it. This is belied of Muslims. But the Christians and Jews object on its compilation process that the words of Allah were not written by Allah himself. Which is certainly condemned from all Muslims, this salafi thought to please their Christian and jews masters is condemned. The similar theology is being presented here to make a comparison for guided Imams. The religion ie islam stands only, because of believers we follow that it has been revealed by Allah swt and protected by him (as quoted in the verse of Quran). So it is matter of belief that keeps us on the faith.

 

3-The sayings of the prophets are written down not by the prophet himself, as the prophet has to obey in all the circumstances, the hadith are to be verified in the light of Quran and if found against Quran are rejected.  The same principle is applied to follow the prophet. This is belief of believers.

 

4-The sayings of Ahl albayt on the same principle are applied to be followed. If we follow the Quran as it is words of Allah and protected by him then those who are not separated by the Quran are also protected. The verse of purifications makes it clear. The same way applies to follow the sayings of the Ahl albayt as it is the belief of believers.

 

5-      Now here we quote Imam Ali is the gate of the city of knowledge and we have compilation of his sermons, and letters in form Nehjul Balagha. Also we have from Imam Ali bin Husain named as Sahifa Sajjadiya. The  fallible caliphs do not have such scholary work.

 

6-      The Shia are not divded into sects 12er still follow 12 imams that you quote in many posts yourself. However I also find sunni divided on the basis of Imams like Hanbali, Shafi, Malki, Hanfi even the all claims to be the followers of 4 caliphs. They just stop at four against the prophet saying of 12 caliphs from their own sources. In history the count of such caliphs is unlimited from the 1st caliph to the King Abdullah, and others???

 

7-      No one is here to prove the basis of imamat it has been kept in the verse of Quran and the prophet himself has proven through his sayings on many occasions available in sunni soucrres.  The believers are to follow, Brother PureEthichs has made a great effort in his posts. All the people cannot be convinced to the doctrine of Immamah or the right path and the prophet is said to convey his messages to the believers alone?

 

8-      Shia disagrees to the method of selection adopted after the prophet ie choosing himself a person as caliph against the quranic principles and calling him the caliph appointed by Allah. Whatever the means are adopted those are verified in the light of Quran, prophet sayings and  and Ahl albayat as they acre never separated and the fallible caliphs are no where standing with the Quran.

 

9-      As already explained in the post no 53, in the light of quran that history of the children of Israel will be repeated into nations of the Muhamamd. All the verses clarify that we should look for the twelve leaders, twelve month, twelve springs etc. And it is duly clarified THEREIN that imams leaders leading to hell fire are 3 top leaders who came against the prophet Musa and Haroon. Why the Quran has mentioned the names of only 3 leaders and all the companions following those were drowned? Could you please give your analysis on it you do have from your own sources that Imam Ali has same relation to the prophet as that Haroon to Musa. Since you do regard prophet sunna.

 

10-   I still await the Answers of my question asked under post no 53 to get the discussion to some conclusion

 

11-   I still want to add the following:

 

WHO WILL Allah MAKES SUCCESSORS IN THE LAND?

 

·         He who guides to the truth, is he worthier to be followed, or he who guides not unless he is guided? What then ails you, how you judge?’ Yunus, 10:35

 

So who guided the ahl al-bayt and the shia imams?

 

·         So question the People of Remembrance, if you do not know’ an-Nahl,16:43 and al-Anbiya’, 21:7

·         Are they equal – those who know and those who know not?’Only men possessed of minds remember.’ Az-Zumar, 39:9

 

·         ‘’…The night of fore-ordaining is better than a thousand months. In it the angels and the ruh descend, by the leave of their Lord, upon every command. Peace it is, till the rising of the dawn.’ Al-Qadr, 97

 

So Allah sent the angels to muhammed (SAW) and if after him Allah does not apoint a khlaifah or an Imam who cant the angels descend to?

 

·         ‘Ha Mim. By the clear book. We have sent it down in a blessed night – we are EVER warning – therein every wise command determined as a command from Us – We are EVER sending’ ad-Dhukan 44:1-5

 

Allah is EVER sending to whom if there is no khalifah or imam appointed by Allah?

 

·         And none know its true hermeneutic interpretation, save only Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge: Al-Imran, 3:7

 

Allah says none knows its interpretation except those firmly rooted in knowledge. Does this mean those who need to be guided or those who do not need to be guided by others?

 

·         Answer: ‘Nay; rather it is clear signs in the breast of those who have been given the knowledge.’ Al-Ankabut, 29:4

 

So the Quran clearly says Only Allah appoints a khalifha or an imam. Only Allah appoints the successor of a prophet. Knowledge is put in the breasts by Allah. Only they know the proper interpretation of the Quran. The angels descend to them not to anyone.

Allah sends and is EVER sending to the ones He has chosen for guiding mankind.

 

Are these views from the shia or the Quran?

 

These are the verses of the Quran.

 

·         Does the Quran say choose your own leader and call him Allah's caliph or Imam?

·         Does the Quran say they have complete knowldge of the Qurans interpretation?

·         Does the Quran say the angels descend to them?

·         Does Allah send the ruh and the angles to them on layla tul-Qadr?

·         Does Allah say the ones people choose are firmly rooted in knowledge?

·         Does Allah say he made them thoroughly pure?

·         Does Allah say be obedient to them because they are the ones who give charity while they bow down in salah?

Is the prophet chosen by Shura? If nor how ummah can choose his successor?

 

 

·         So do the hadiths say Abu bakr was chosen by Allah or by the Prophet order (SAW)? Nope.

 

·         So who did Allah appoint and choose or did Allah leave the people to become confused about the shairah and fiqh and the interpretation of the Quran after revealing it?

 

·         Does the Quran speak to tell the people about all knowledge it contains so there is no confusion? If not then who speaks on behalf of Allah after Muhammed(SAW)?

 

·         Allah appointed the khulafah and the Imams before Muhammed (SAW) and did he continue this or just leave it after muhammed (SAW) and the best religion so people will deviate like the other nations of the prophets

 

We can see by only looking at the Quran what the answer is, so we must find whom Allah chose when Allah's precedent has already been made clear in the Quran.

 

 

100% Irrelevant! You are not ready to respond my questions considering I am a Non-Muslim seeking to accept Shia version of Islam?

Edited by investigating

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100% Irrelevant! You are not ready to respond my questions considering I am a Non-Muslim seeking to accept Shia version of Islam?

 

So you are not able to respond  the questions asked under post no 53 and 56  Ok Thnks 

 

Regards

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