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In the Name of God بسم الله

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The situation is fragile in that anything can happen in the march. The state has to move back to accommodate the protesters. Any use of force will be seen as disproportionate and turn the opinion back towards IK and TUQ. What ever happens, the media is going to amplify its effect a hundred times. This is what makes this so precarious. 

 

And because a new generation of political activists is getting its first taste of the show..

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This is the problem with Imran's supporters. They don't have a good reason to justify their votes for him.

 

 

What might be a good reason to justify the votes for a political party?

 

 

People were drawn to him not because he had some solid policies to offer, some ideas and ideals which were thought to introduce major changes, something that could engender some fundamental shift in economics and politics of the country; no, 

 

 

No? Justice is the key source of survival for the society. Insaf is his slogan. It effects economics, politics & all other dimensions of the country. You seem to be such a confused man. I feel sorry for u.

 

 

 

they supported him because he was 'clean', 'untested'

 

 

Yes, Alhamdulillah our leader is clean. Now compare him with any other political figure.

 

 

and they just liked him for winning the Cricket World Cup for Pakistan.

 

 

Yes we do... dont u?

 

 

 

Needless to say that this is a very wrong way to choose a party even if you are short of choices.

 

 

What might be the right way to choose a party? Especially for the Pakis... considering the options they possess.  Can u enlighten us?

 

 

I said the same right after Imran's first Lahore rally which propelled him to fame and made him a serious threat to other contending political parties. But the fanatical followers, usually young impressionable youth from urban centres, released a volley of abuse every time I told them Imran is all bluff and no substance. They still do.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1126305/

 

 

You sir, havent seen the insults of patwaris, & jiyalayz of PP... PTI is way much better than any other. I dont say that it is infallible, but it is the best available option for us Pakistanis. Process that.

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Not a fan of Imran but really anything will do over the lunatics that have been in power.  These situations are always potentially explosive and highly unpredictable despite everyone's expert analysis.  I find Imran Khan to be quite a dull politician and I don't buy this nonsense about him not being obsessed with power but his party is infused with youth and in such situations they can be quite resilient.  Qadri is the unknown, although in speech he seems more sensible than Imran, and as far as the mullahs go, he really sounds a lot more progressive in comparison.  If a power vacuum is created (I highly doubt it will), Imran and Qadri might just be at each others throats. I wouldn't feel comfortable with either of them, but given Pakistan's political make up I doubt we have a choice and I do hope the Sharif gang is disposed off for good.  Most probably the military establishment will continue to dictate policy regardless, but we can do without PM's who leech billions off the public into their foreign accounts. 

Edited by King

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here is what i think is going to happen

 

Imran khan and TuQ will be allowed to go near parliament.

They will sit there for sometime.

Govt will investigate rigging in some constituencies.

Govt will make some kind of electoral reforms.

Edited by AnaAmmar1

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No? Justice is the key source of survival for the society. Insaf is his slogan. It effects economics, politics & all other dimensions of the country. You seem to be such a confused man. I feel sorry for u.

 

Captain Obvious, everybody knows justice is 'the key source of survival'; everybody knows that corruption needs to end or reduced for the country to function; everybody knows that the country can't progress without a clean and accountable system. The question is how do you achieve it. For that I need solid, concrete, objective policy guidelines, freely available and open to public debate, which are incorporated into a party's election manifesto when it begins campaigning for votes. Before the election I saw no concrete policies espoused by Imran Khan and his PTI that might help him achieve his stated goals. I still don't see anything. Why don't you list them item by item and we shall discuss? Or perhaps you don't know how Imran intends to implement 'justice'?

 

On the contrary, there was a lot of rhetoric about 'progress' and 'change' [so what happened in KP?], a lot of hyperbole about the most pressing issues facing the country, terrorism included and topping the list, on which Imran policy was vague at best and downright suicidal at worst.

 

I had, and have, no good reason to support Imran Khan's politics. I wish I could support him because I don't support any other party and did not vote for any of them.

 

It's the enthusiastic PTI supporters the likes of which are mentioned in the article I linked that you should be feeling sorry for not me. It is they who had their dreams quashed not mine. It is they who need to be placated with a new show or promise not me. I, and others of my opinion, had no illusions to begin with.

 

Now, maybe you will be somewhat forgiving, but every Shia might kill me for saying this: Like or not, Sharif govt need to stay for the full term of five years and must be voted out if they fail to deliver. That's the only way PTI has a good chance to gain power if Sharif fails. That's the only way democratic system in the country will strengthen. Enough of these stupid ousters every 2 years; enough of those clowns calling army to takeover twice a decade. That's not how things work. Only take a look at India.

Edited by Marbles

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The question is how do you achieve it. For that I need solid, concrete, objective policy guidelines, freely available and open to public debate, which are incorporated into a party's election manifesto when it begins campaigning for votes. Before the election I saw no concrete policies espoused by Imran Khan and his PTI that might help him achieve his stated goals. I still don't see anything. Why don't you list them item by item and we shall discuss? Or perhaps you don't know how Imran intends to implement 'justice'?

 

This is understandable only if the country in question was not Pakistan.  We haven't had the kind of history to expect political leaders to come out with very specific policy proposals, our democracy or lack thereof is simply not that advanced.  What most people are certain about is that we have had a prolonged experiment with the Nawaz gang and on paper it would be in everyone's interest to see them go.  I really doubt Imran Khan's PTI can conceivably be any worse than PML N.  The political situation in Pakistan has been so utterly hopeless that anyone with seemingly sincere intentions (even with no concrete policies or experience) seems a better option than maintaining the status quo.  5 more years of Nawaz sharif, then who knows, the PPP rigs elections again and we are back at square one having to wait another 5 years.  We don't have a civilian rule right now anyway, the army still seems in charge and has probably adopted a slightly hands off policy, that's all.  

 

I do agree that just having 20 000 protesters calling for an overthrow is not sufficient in a democracy, but again, the situation in Pakistan is unique and we have not experienced 2 civilian political players marching with their people to the capital. It would have to deteriorate quite a lot more before we can even dream of entertaining a resignation etc but at least this doesn't sound like some imminent military coup.  If this is some military backed movement then it still is quite different to what we are accustomed to seeing.  Martial law would be a bad idea, and I don't think the army is currently interested in that sense, so why not let these people tussle and hope for a change in course even if it is slight?  I am not a fan of Imran Khan anyway and I find most of his rhetoric quite comical.

Edited by King

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This is understandable only if the country in question was not Pakistan.  We haven't had the kind of history to expect political leaders to come out with very specific policy proposals, our democracy or lack thereof is simply not that advanced.  What most people are certain about is that we have had a prolonged experiment with the Nawaz gang and on paper it would be in everyone's interest to see them go.  I really doubt Imran Khan's PTI can conceivably be any worse than PML N.  The political situation in Pakistan has been so utterly hopeless that anyone with seemingly sincere intentions (even with no concrete policies or experience) seems a better option than maintaining the status quo.  5 more years of Nawaz sharif, then who knows, the PPP rigs elections again and we are back at square one having to wait another 5 years.  We don't have a civilian rule right now anyway, the army still seems in charge and has probably adopted a slightly hands off policy, that's all.  

 

I do agree that just having 20 000 protesters calling for an overthrow is not sufficient in a democracy, but again, the situation in Pakistan is unique and we have not experienced 2 civilian political players marching with their people to the capital. It would have to deteriorate quite a lot more before we can even dream of entertaining a resignation etc but at least this doesn't sound like some imminent military coup.  If this is some military backed movement then it still is quite different to what we are accustomed to seeing.  Martial law would be a bad idea, and I don't think the army is currently interested in that sense, so why not let these people tussle and hope for a change in course even if it is slight?  I am not a fan of Imran Khan anyway and I find most of his rhetoric quite comical.

 

The first and the only time there has been a transfer of power between civilian governments was in 2013, some 66 years after the country was created and was supposed to adopt parliamentary democracy from the get-go. So precedents sometimes take a long time to establish. Now ousting Sharif government from power, despite some rigging having taken place in the elections, would u-turn the system back to square one. And the only party which can fill a power vacuum is the army and we know army's rule has been no better if not more worse than the civilians.

 

My take is that Pakis need to get rid of their wonder-working messiah syndrome, and the only chance the country has of dispensing with the corrupt and inefficient and electing clean and efficient is through the electoral system, though by no means perfect and clean, has proved a good enough indicator of general public support for parties both in 2013 and 2008 elections. Despite rigging problems on both occasions the results were not engineered by either the party in power [for it lost] or the army [as they kept their hands off]. Both these elections, though faulty, are precedents in themselves, which Pakistan has not seen since its creation in 1947.

 

As for Sharif, he has only come to power last year after having been ousted in 1999. I don't think they have had a chance the PPP had, and failed. There were countless cases of big corruptions as soon as PPP took power, no one tried to topple them, not even army; there are no cases for big corruption in a year of Sharif government and nothing has been done so outrageous as to bring millions on the streets. So I don't see why Sharif govt should go just because Imran can't accept that fact that his party couldn't win the absolute majority in the National Assembly.

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PTI losing support among their own leaders and workers.

 

From my Facebook, here are two feeds:

 

This is coming from the man who contested elections for a provincial assembly seat on a PTI ticket:

 

"I maintain as before....but I hope im wrong...IK has had it....kaput...finito...18 years gone down the drain....but I hope im wrong"

 

Here's another whose uncle currently a parliamentary member from Dera Ghazi Khan:

 

"All the differences and criticisms aside, I never wanted to see Imran Khan humiliated. Unfortunately, He is doing it to himself now. These desperate measures show he has totally lost it. And this is so unfortunate."

 

So you have sumpathy for but also alienation from Imran within the party ranks.

 

And here is the latest news report on PTI suppoters' disgruntlement.

 

 

SLAMABAD: Not only his rivals but also some of his staunch supporters have distanced themselves from Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan’s call for ‘civil disobedience’ and the removal of Pakistan Muslim League (PML-N) government.

 

Saeed Khurshid Ahmed, a PTI candidate for National Assembly seat NA-153 in the 2013 election, has conveyed his resentment to Imran Khan over his call for the ‘civil disobedience’.

 

In a letter addressed to the party chairman, Mr Ahmed said that the party demand for the removal of the elected prime minister did not convince him as a party worker.

 

“I felt it my moral obligation to convey my opinion to the PTI leadership though I am not part of the committee dealing with the situation. Since we are seeking an unconstitutional change, it will be disastrous and will definitely lead to a political turmoil and anarchy,” the letter said.

 

“The public opinion graph shows a U-turn about our party’s vision and existence. We are sharply heading to be branded like a militant group and an anarchist party. The soft image of the party pursuing electoral reforms, institutional freedom, justice, rule of law and above all social, economical and educational reforms in the country seems to have changed.”

 

Mr Ahmed added: “I have been observing, since the beginning of the ‘Azadi’ march, that you have changed your statements and party position regarding the objectives of the march.

 

“I must say in direct words that there is a disappointment amongst the majority of PTI supporters who don’t like violence, hate speeches, anarchy, insulting remarks against institutions, especially the judiciary, police and a retired army chief, etc.” Link

 


Imran's best chance of winning nationally could only come after he had delivered in the KP and augured a substantial and tangible change in how things work there. Over a year on, there's nothing to laud. This is why he has taken these desperate measures to shore up his support but so far it had the opposite effect.

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Did he really have any power in KP though? Whats the most he could have done while independent of the federal government? How much authority does having that post give him? 

 

After the 18th amendment in 2010 provinces now enjoy unprecedented autonomy and thus are responsible for running the province in all manners except foreign policy and defense, which remains in the hands of the federal government.

 

The only areas where they are dependent on the federal government is the share of revenue the federation awards to each province according to its population; KP's share of federal revenues has never been stopped. The other issue which could cause problem is the higher bureaucracy in the province which is technically answerable to the centre. This has caused some friction but not enough for Imran to make it out to be a big excuse for PTI failing to deliver.

 

Pakistan is a federation and provinces its constituting units. It's the provinces that joined to make up the country called Pakistan not the other way round. So yes, Imran's party has the power to do everything to clean up things and bring about the 'change' he promised.

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SSP, LeJ, and Deobandi Banoria town madrassahs speaking to 'save democracy'. Wow, such contradiction could only take place in Pakistan!

 

The label of democracy is only a tool in the language of politics, used by anybody to guard their interests when they are threatened, from Caracas to Karachi and from London to Lima.

Perhaps the most misused of political ideals in our times. Every one seems to love it yet no one seems capable of practicing it.

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The first and the only time there has been a transfer of power between civilian governments was in 2013, some 66 years after the country was created and was supposed to adopt parliamentary democracy from the get-go. So precedents sometimes take a long time to establish. Now ousting Sharif government from power, despite some rigging having taken place in the elections, would u-turn the system back to square one. And the only party which can fill a power vacuum is the army and we know army's rule has been no better if not more worse than the civilians.

 

My take is that Pakis need to get rid of their wonder-working messiah syndrome, and the only chance the country has of dispensing with the corrupt and inefficient and electing clean and efficient is through the electoral system, though by no means perfect and clean, has proved a good enough indicator of general public support for parties both in 2013 and 2008 elections. Despite rigging problems on both occasions the results were not engineered by either the party in power [for it lost] or the army [as they kept their hands off]. Both these elections, though faulty, are precedents in themselves, which Pakistan has not seen since its creation in 1947.

 

As for Sharif, he has only come to power last year after having been ousted in 1999. I don't think they have had a chance the PPP had, and failed. There were countless cases of big corruptions as soon as PPP took power, no one tried to topple them, not even army; there are no cases for big corruption in a year of Sharif government and nothing has been done so outrageous as to bring millions on the streets. So I don't see why Sharif govt should go just because Imran can't accept that fact that his party couldn't win the absolute majority in the National Assembly.

I was referring more to the Sharif family having ruled over Punjab as well. I think the public is quite familiar with their governance or lack thereof.

In any case what do you think of the latest accusations of rigging by Afzal Khan also involving the notorious former chief justice?

http://www.dawn.com/news/1127449/peoples-mandate-stolen-in-2013-elections-says-ex-ecp-additional-secretary

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I was referring more to the Sharif family having ruled over Punjab as well. I think the public is quite familiar with their governance or lack thereof.

In any case what do you think of the latest accusations of rigging by Afzal Khan also involving the notorious former chief justice?

http://www.dawn.com/news/1127449/peoples-mandate-stolen-in-2013-elections-says-ex-ecp-additional-secretary

 

Seems like a pre-planned move, not something he did independently out of his own volition. I will wait for when new info comes along.

 

It begs many questions though. Why didn't the additional secretary blow the whistle when he was in service and privy to the rigging? Why he remained silent up till now when PTI's rally came in full swing?

 

Afzal Khan and his family have been seen in the protest rally in Islamabad so he's not a disinterested individual.

 

Anyway, that rigging took place there is little doubt about. The doubt is about the extent and spread of the rigging, and whether major players were involved in it, or if it was mostly a local affair [Establishment was definitely not on board]. For this a thorough and independent investigation is sine qua non. I support the theory of Khurshid Shah, PPP head, who said that Imran's demands are fair but he should change the order. The first demand is for PM Sharif to resign; other demands about investigations into rigging. He said let an disinterested court committee investigate the rigging and if it's proved, then all of them would push for PM Sharif's resignation and consequent mid-term ballot.

 

The government is unfit to carry out such an investigation obviously. So we are left with the courts. Now, if top justices have been involved in rigging too, as the additional sectary alleges, than what hope do we have from any investigate committee based on judges? They are going to guard their own interests and try to keep the names of their predecessor justices clean. With this Imran Khan loses all options of negotiation if he can't rely on any organ of the state.

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It should be noted that Tahir-ul-Qadri is a big fan of Ayatullah Khomeini and the revolution of Iran, even as a Sunni. This is why the Wahhabi Yazid-kids that someone posted a banner of have risen, at Sharif's clandestine call, to counter the 'Qadri threat' by coming int to support 'democracy' [ :lol: ]. This is the reason their banner against Qadri's movement says "Khomeinian revolution not accepted."

 

Qadri is avoiding mentioning Khomeini publicly, for he knows it would alienate the Deobandis, but when he goes down into his container to be with his close circle of confidants, according to an eye witness, you can hear him referring to Khomeini when he waxes poetic about the great revolution he's going to bring about in Pakistan. He might have self-exiled himself to Canada just to feel a bit more Khomeini lol

 

Interesting, I should say.

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(salam)

 

Imran Khan "assures crowd they will celebrate tomorrow"...the boy who cried wolf anyone?

 

People outside of Pakistan are probably more glued to their television sets than those in Pakistan, and quite frankly I'm getting tired of these deadlines now! I want to see action, or an end to this Blair Witch Project like thriller...

 

Wassalam

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As predicted, the army finally comes in the scene to arbitrate the matter, apparently on the suggestion of the government. Previous negotiations failed because they were designed to fail and the opposition wasn't going to listen to anything until and unless army guaranteed it. So back to square one with Pak army doing the most politics in a democracy. Subhanallah.

 

Qadri has been more effective than Imran in making the government accept his demands. An FIR of Model Town incident has been registered against Sharif bros and many other top PML-N officials. It is predicted that arrogant twit Shahbaz Sharif would be made to resign. Inshallah. But prime minister would probably stay and so would the government. But Imran will not rest until a fair investigation into rigging claims guaranteed by the army goes underway and produces results. If so happens, Sharif bros will lose all credibility because rigging did take place.

 

The problem with Sharif bros is that, unlike Zardari, they are not so crafty but they are very arrogant and pharaoh-like. Things wouldn't have gone so bad for them only if they had handled the Model Town incident carefully.

 

In any case, come what may, Sharif bros' will lose their stiff necks and arrogant countenance. Pak civil society today is too strong and media too vibrant for them to act in the old pharaohic ways.

Edited by Marbles

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