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Ex-Muslims: Why Did You Leave Islam?

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Hi. I'm going through a period of skepticism and would like to ask any ex-Muslims on here why they chose to leave Islam. What specifics were the  final straw that broke the camel's back? In particular, since this is a Shia forum, I'd be interested in how your view of the following changed once you'd left Islam compared to when you were a Muslim:

 

1. The sacrifice of Imam Hussain at Karbala along with 72 of his followers.

2.  The infallibility of the Prophet and His Miracles

 

and 3. how do you interpret the lives of Sufi saints such as Rumi, Hallaj and Bulleh Shah after leaving Islam?

 

These answers from you I hope will help me to elucidate my own thoughts and questions. (Moderators: perhaps this could go in the Thinkers' Discourse section; secondly, is there a way of changing one's username without making a new account?)

 

 

 

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I doubt if you will get many responses. There are not many Shias who have left Islam. But you may find people from some other Muslim sects.

 

It may have been better if you had designed your thread in a hypothetical manner, so that that who have not left Islam could also participate.

 

Anyway, I just want to say one thing.

 

1. The sacrifice of Imam Hussain at Karbala along with 72 of his followers.

 

 

The Legacy of Imam Husain and his valiant supporters is enough for me to banish any doubt that could ever cross my mind.

 

Hi. I'm going through a period of skepticism 

 

Perhaps you should discuss your doubts with us.

 

3. how do you interpret the lives of Sufi saints such as Rumi, Hallaj and Bulleh Shah after leaving Islam?

 

They are nothing compared toi Imam Husain.  

 

Nothing!

 

Simply nothing! 

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Hi. I'm going through a period of skepticism and would like to ask any ex-Muslims on here why they chose to leave Islam. What specifics were the  final straw that broke the camel's back? In particular, since this is a Shia forum, I'd be interested in how your view of the following changed once you'd left Islam compared to when you were a Muslim:

 

1. The sacrifice of Imam Hussain at Karbala along with 72 of his followers.

2.  The infallibility of the Prophet and His Miracles

 

 

Not exactly what you are looking for , But form outsiders view- This may help, What the non Muslims say about Imam Husain(AS).

 

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/personalities-what-non-muslims-say-about-husayn-third-successor-prophet-muhammad

 

Event of Karbala, saved Islam,is not only a saying, its a profound truth, it you ponder on it. After all that inflected the people on the day of Ashura, and after Ashura. You and I can never be subjected with that kind of test, our belief in Allah(swt), and HIS Prophet(pbuhahp) and Islam. After Karbala- One can have no business with disbelief in Islam and Allah(swt).

 

People who hijaked Islam, did plant the seed of disinformation, and current events in the world, which may give rise to doubts about Islam- are not based on the true teachings of Islam.

 

As suggested, before, Inform the members of  your Doubts. 

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Well okay this is difficult and it's not about Islam but organized religion in general. It just seems to me to be very unscientific and full of scientific errors in all the major religions, including Islam unless we make the most massive leaps in translation or ignore the classical understandings which we use most of the time. Secondly I am sceptical about the controlling nature of Islam in that it seeks to control every aspects of our lives with punishment in hell as a threat if we don't obey the rules (whichever sect) from what we have to believe (think) to what we eat drink and do in our bedrooms! Then you have the fact that each sect makes takfir of every other sect on the most trivial and obscure points of theology and therefore logically they can't all be right. I suppose if I was being brief it would be the scientific backwardness and errors and the lack of personal freedom which bother me the most. The reason I mentioned Imam Hussain, Rumi and Hallaj and Bulleh Shah is that they are the people whose lives I read and think there must be something Divine which inspired them to live their lives how they did and therefore I still believe in the basics of Islam however the more organized aspects of it I find increasingly illogical. (From a purely secular perspective one can see the events of Karbala as a part of an Arab civil war in which the Imam was brutally and cruelly killed in a skirmish and power struggle. ) this is not my perspective but it is a possible reading of the events. Similarly Hallaj either experienced the Divine or his life was a colossal waste based on sincere delusions. How do we know that what him or other saints including the imams and prophets experienced (what we consider miracles) was not mental illness or hallucinations?

These are the kind of thoughts I've been troubled with.

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Hi. I'm going through a period of skepticism and would like to ask any ex-Muslims on here why they chose to leave Islam. What specifics were the  final straw that broke the camel's back?

 

 

Problems I found in Quran like وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا {59}

[shakir 17:59] And nothing could have hindered Us that We should send signs except that the ancients rejected them; and We gave to Samood the she-camel– a manifest sign– but on her account they did injustice, and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear.

[Pickthal 17:59] Naught hindereth Us from sending portents save that the folk of old denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel – a clear portent save to warn.

[Yusufali 17:59] And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

 

The verse says either the only reason miracles aren't sent are because they were rejected in the past by former people or that the reason revelations weren't sent were because previous people rejected them.  I thought about both of these and they seem to be problematic and don't make sense.

 

There are other verses like:

 

 

 
وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُوا رَبَّهُمْ إِلَّا أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ سُنَّةُ الْأَوَّلِينَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ قُبُلًا {55}

[shakir 18:55] And nothing prevents men from believing when the guidance comes to them, and from asking forgiveness of their Lord, except that what happened to the ancients should overtake them, or that the chastisement should come face to face with them.

[Pickthal 18:55] And naught hindereth mankind from believing when the guidance cometh unto them, and from asking forgiveness of their Lord unless (it be that they wish) that the judgment of the men of old should come upon them or (that) they should be confronted with the Doom.

[Yusufali 18:55] And what is there to keep back men from believing, now that Guidance has come to them, nor from praying for forgiveness from their Lord, but that (they ask that) the ways of the ancients be repeated with them, or the Wrath be brought to them face to face?

 
Which don't make sense to me.
 
And contradictions like those who desire the next promised paradise and those who desire this world promised hell, while it's possible to desire both.
 

 

 In particular, since this is a Shia forum, I'd be interested in how your view of the following changed once you'd left Islam compared to when you were a Muslim:

 

1. The sacrifice of Imam Hussain at Karbala along with 72 of his followers.

2.  The infallibility of the Prophet and His Miracles

 

 

 

Imam Hussain and his followers didn't want oppression. They did their best to get rid of a bad government but it didn't work out.  They were outnumbered and a governor wanted them killed no matter what.

 

and 3. how do you interpret the lives of Sufi saints such as Rumi, Hallaj and Bulleh Shah after leaving Islam?

 

These answers from you I hope will help me to elucidate my own thoughts and questions. (Moderators: perhaps this could go in the Thinkers' Discourse section; secondly, is there a way of changing one's username without making a new account?)

 

 

They are inspired by ideas of love towards God and the reality of the closeness of God and his creation.  

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وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُوا رَبَّهُمْ إِلَّا أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ سُنَّةُ الْأَوَّلِينَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ قُبُلًا {55}

 

Nothing prevented them from believing except that should come to them (إِلَّا أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ) the chastisement etc.
 
Isn't the desire of those people to have these events as conditions for belief implied in this verse? The implication can be seen if you focus on the wording. What prevents them from believing is that either of those two events hasn't happened to them. They want these events to happen, otherwise they wont believe. This is explicitly stated in other parts of the Quran. 
Edited by Muhammed Ali

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The following Hadith faltered my belief years ago.

al-Kafi, Vol. 8, page 89

محمد، عن أحمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح، عن أبان بن تغلب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن الارض على أي شئ هي؟ قال: هي على حوت، قلت: فالحوت على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على الماء، قلت: فالماء على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على صخرة، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الصخرة؟ قال: على قرن ثور أملس (2)، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثور؟ قال: على الثرى، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثرى؟ فقال: هيهات عند ذلك ضل علم العلماء

http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0986.html

Translation:

Imam Ja'far was asked about the Earth, what is it (the Earth) on top of?

Imam Jafar replied: It is on top of a whale (or large fish).

He was asked: And the whale, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on water.

He was asked: And the water, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on a rock.

He was asked: And on what thing is the rock?

Jafar replied: On the smooth horn of a bull.

He was asked: And on what thing is the horn?

Jafar replied: On soil.

He was asked: And on what thing is the soil?

Jafar replied: What a strange notion! At this flounders the knowledge of the scholars!

Grading: Saheeh according to Allamah Majlisi

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Well okay this is difficult and it's not about Islam but organized religion in general. It just seems to me to be very unscientific and full of scientific errors in all the major religions, including Islam unless we make the most massive leaps in translation or ignore the classical understandings which we use most of the time. Secondly I am sceptical about the controlling nature of Islam in that it seeks to control every aspects of our lives with punishment in hell as a threat if we don't obey the rules (whichever sect) from what we have to believe (think) to what we eat drink and do in our bedrooms! Then you have the fact that each sect makes takfir of every other sect on the most trivial and obscure points of theology and therefore logically they can't all be right. I suppose if I was being brief it would be the scientific backwardness and errors and the lack of personal freedom which bother me the most. The reason I mentioned Imam Hussain, Rumi and Hallaj and Bulleh Shah is that they are the people whose lives I read and think there must be something Divine which inspired them to live their lives how they did and therefore I still believe in the basics of Islam however the more organized aspects of it I find increasingly illogical. (From a purely secular perspective one can see the events of Karbala as a part of an Arab civil war in which the Imam was brutally and cruelly killed in a skirmish and power struggle. ) this is not my perspective but it is a possible reading of the events. Similarly Hallaj either experienced the Divine or his life was a colossal waste based on sincere delusions. How do we know that what him or other saints including the imams and prophets experienced (what we consider miracles) was not mental illness or hallucinations?

These are the kind of thoughts I've been troubled with.

 

You're concerning yourself with a lot of historical, cultural, and fiqh issues. These are all developments from after the Prophet's death and outside of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not so intrusive in your daily life actually. It's the developed fiqh that became as such. But even then there are so many schools of thought. So if you believe in the Qur'an and the Prophet, then no need to leave Islam, just find the school that fits your interpretation the best. There are very intrusive legalistic Muslims, as well as very spiritual liberal Sufi-types. I'd personally recommend you stay away from Takfiri-Salafi-ISIS types, but also overly hippie-Sufis don't follow any of the rules.

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Well okay this is difficult and it's not about Islam but organized religion in general. It just seems to me to be very unscientific and full of scientific errors in all the major religions, including Islam unless we make the most massive leaps in translation or ignore the classical understandings which we use most of the time. Secondly I am sceptical about the controlling nature of Islam in that it seeks to control every aspects of our lives with punishment in hell as a threat if we don't obey the rules (whichever sect) from what we have to believe (think) to what we eat drink and do in our bedrooms! Then you have the fact that each sect makes takfir of every other sect on the most trivial and obscure points of theology and therefore logically they can't all be right. I suppose if I was being brief it would be the scientific backwardness and errors and the lack of personal freedom which bother me the most. The reason I mentioned Imam Hussain, Rumi and Hallaj and Bulleh Shah is that they are the people whose lives I read and think there must be something Divine which inspired them to live their lives how they did and therefore I still believe in the basics of Islam however the more organized aspects of it I find increasingly illogical. (From a purely secular perspective one can see the events of Karbala as a part of an Arab civil war in which the Imam was brutally and cruelly killed in a skirmish and power struggle. ) this is not my perspective but it is a possible reading of the events. Similarly Hallaj either experienced the Divine or his life was a colossal waste based on sincere delusions. How do we know that what him or other saints including the imams and prophets experienced (what we consider miracles) was not mental illness or hallucinations?

These are the kind of thoughts I've been troubled with.

 

(bismillah)

 

Correct me if I am wrong, you are making three basic points.

 

1) In your view Islam is unscientific and full of scientific errors.

 

2) In your view Islam is organized religion, its controlling nature in every aspect of life.

 

3) In your view/(on shaking grounds) Imam Husain(AS) sacrifice- is actually part of Arab civil war, and killed in a skirmish and power struggle. How do we know that what him or other saints including the imams and prophets experienced (what we consider miracles) was not mental illness or hallucinations?

 

I am not a scholar or something, just a regular person so bare with me, lets first work with number 3.

Tell me what, do you know of about the cause of this event, go as far back as possible, take you time, provide as much details as possible. A general and holistic view of the issue and we can drill down to cause which lead to this event, details of the events before and after Ashura. Implications, and what changed after this event.

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These are the kind of thoughts I've been troubled with.

 

Brother

 

You have written a full essay.

 

It would have been better if you had made a dot point or number list of your problems.

 

It is hard to connect all the points you have made.

 

Anyway, as far as trying to understand the Quran is concerned, it is not easy at all. The language style is very obscure. 

 

I will give you just one example and there are many more.

 

Let us examine verse [20:103].

 

Yusuf Ali translates the verse as follows :- In whispers will they consult one another - "You tarried not longer than ten (days)".

 

Notice the word "days" is in brackets. 

 

That is because the Quran itself does not specify whether it is talking about days, months or years.

 

In fact, SHAKIR translates it as 'centuries'.

 

In very brief, the Quran is very difficult to understand even if you know Arabic. 

 

As you can see, it is not possible to understand even from the original Arabic if the Quran is talking about days, months, years or centuries.

 

From a purely secular perspective one can see the events of Karbala as a part of an Arab civil war in which the Imam was brutally and cruelly killed in a skirmish and power struggle. 

 

None of the commentaries I have come across seem to think that Imam Husain was engaged in a power struggle.

 

And it was by no means a skirmish. It was a full-fledged battle.

 

Regardless whether it was a skirmish and / or a power struggle, as you put it, what everyone has marvelled is the extraordinary patience and fortitude that Imam Husain and his companions, women and even children displayed.

 

You should yourself try to assess Imam Husain's contribution in the light of your own knowledge and if you still have doubts about his extraordinary contribution, it will be hard to explain to you any further.

 

If you find no change in your conclusions, well, that is up to you.

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Well okay this is difficult and it's not about Islam but organized religion in general. It just seems to me to be very unscientific and full of scientific errors in all the major religions, including Islam unless we make the most massive leaps in translation or ignore the classical understandings which we use most of the time. Secondly I am sceptical about the controlling nature of Islam in that it seeks to control every aspects of our lives with punishment in hell as a threat if we don't obey the rules (whichever sect) from what we have to believe (think) to what we eat drink and do in our bedrooms! Then you have the fact that each sect makes takfir of every other sect on the most trivial and obscure points of theology and therefore logically they can't all be right. I suppose if I was being brief it would be the scientific backwardness and errors and the lack of personal freedom which bother me the most. The reason I mentioned Imam Hussain, Rumi and Hallaj and Bulleh Shah is that they are the people whose lives I read and think there must be something Divine which inspired them to live their lives how they did and therefore I still believe in the basics of Islam however the more organized aspects of it I find increasingly illogical. (From a purely secular perspective one can see the events of Karbala as a part of an Arab civil war in which the Imam was brutally and cruelly killed in a skirmish and power struggle. ) this is not my perspective but it is a possible reading of the events. Similarly Hallaj either experienced the Divine or his life was a colossal waste based on sincere delusions. How do we know that what him or other saints including the imams and prophets experienced (what we consider miracles) was not mental illness or hallucinations?

These are the kind of thoughts I've been troubled with.

 

Brother, you've raised a lot of good points, each of which could be their own separate topics of discussion.  Like you, I think many of us have encountered similar challenges to our faith in the face of secular ideology.  Islam as it's practiced today certainly has its share of problems (blind following, extremism, lack of modernity, etc).  We however need to make the distinction between the principles of Islam - monotheism, justice, Quran, etc - and it's understanding and implementation by Muslims.  Assuming you don't doubt the existence of God or the prophethood of Muhammad (saw), then it sounds to me like your problem is mostly with the latter.  Religion or any ideology is what people make of it and Islam is no exception.  The issues facing the ummah today are the result of human failings, not Islam itself.  And this isn't exclusive to Sunnis.  

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The following Hadith faltered my belief years ago.

al-Kafi, Vol. 8, page 89

محمد، عن أحمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح، عن أبان بن تغلب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن الارض على أي شئ هي؟ قال: هي على حوت، قلت: فالحوت على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على الماء، قلت: فالماء على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على صخرة، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الصخرة؟ قال: على قرن ثور أملس (2)، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثور؟ قال: على الثرى، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثرى؟ فقال: هيهات عند ذلك ضل علم العلماءhttp://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0986.html

Translation:

Imam Ja'far was asked about the Earth, what is it (the Earth) on top of?

Imam Jafar replied: It is on top of a whale (or large fish).

He was asked: And the whale, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on water.

He was asked: And the water, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on a rock.

He was asked: And on what thing is the rock?

Jafar replied: On the smooth horn of a bull.

He was asked: And on what thing is the horn?

Jafar replied: On soil.

He was asked: And on what thing is the soil?

Jafar replied: What a strange notion! At this flounders the knowledge of the scholars!

Grading: Saheeh according to Allamah Majlisi

You doubted your faith based on a hadith that could mean anything or nothing?

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The following Hadith faltered my belief years ago.

al-Kafi, Vol. 8, page 89

محمد، عن أحمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح، عن أبان بن تغلب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن الارض على أي شئ هي؟ قال: هي على حوت، قلت: فالحوت على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على الماء، قلت: فالماء على أي شئ هو؟ قال: على صخرة، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الصخرة؟ قال: على قرن ثور أملس (2)، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثور؟ قال: على الثرى، قلت: فعلى أي شئ الثرى؟ فقال: هيهات عند ذلك ضل علم العلماء

http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0986.html

Translation:

Imam Ja'far was asked about the Earth, what is it (the Earth) on top of?

Imam Jafar replied: It is on top of a whale (or large fish).

He was asked: And the whale, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on water.

He was asked: And the water, what is it on top of?

Jafar relied: It is on a rock.

He was asked: And on what thing is the rock?

Jafar replied: On the smooth horn of a bull.

He was asked: And on what thing is the horn?

Jafar replied: On soil.

He was asked: And on what thing is the soil?

Jafar replied: What a strange notion! At this flounders the knowledge of the scholars!

Grading: Saheeh according to Allamah Majlisi

One of my favorite hadiths. Nice.

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Its not true that there aren't many Shias who have left Islam, a lot of youth are on the verge of leaving Islam and your question is very apt because it is indeed the supreme sacrifice of Imam Hussain a.s that keeps them on that verge. The sacrifice he made so willingly and with such strong belief that it makes you wonder what was it all for.

 

But with modern science and modern values, the youth has BIG questions which our elders are incapable of answering. Our scholars are not so well-equipped in the field of Science that they can't give satisfactory answers. People would tell you not to go about comparing science and religion, but why not ? When the Quran itself ask you to ponder on the creation. 

 

Someone in my family has 'almost' left Islam, I'll give you his version of things. When it comes to Imam Hussain a.s and Karbala, he thinks that Imam Hussain stood up like other leaders of the world such as Mendela or Gandhi, I'm ashamed to say but he compares it to the 300 movie, and other movies where people stand up for something and stay true to their stance till their last breath. Its insane and when you give historic references he would say who knows what really happened I wasn't there and you wasn't there. Cynical, but what can one say. And when it comes to delusions and hallucinations, its one extreme case to make that can't be refuted without deep understanding of their personalities and their movement, which the other is not willing to put his time into.

 

This kind of thinking has a lot to do with the popular culture of Thinking Outside the Box that most people have forgotten how to Think Within the Box. We keep thinking of all kinds or rare and unique possibilities just to avoid the simple and elegant ones that are staring us in the face.

 

All I can tell you at this point is that there is a Creator, that contrary to popular belief most scientists and intellectuals are not Atheists but rather Agnostics. And that from a keen observation of main stream and popular educational media it is very obvious that the world powers want its masses to believe in Atheism and adopt Materialism. So that is something you might want to stay away from. As to the question, why Islam ? Keep asking and researching, and if you can then keep practicing it too as it will only bring you good, no harm. Study Islamic practices and I'm sure you will find they're for the best.

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Its not true that there aren't many Shias who have left Islam, a lot of youth are on the verge of leaving Islam and your question is very apt because it is indeed the supreme sacrifice of Imam Hussain a.s that keeps them on that verge. The sacrifice he made so willingly and with such strong belief that it makes you wonder what was it all for.

 

But with modern science and modern values, the youth has BIG questions which our elders are incapable of answering. Our scholars are not so well-equipped in the field of Science that they can't give satisfactory answers. People would tell you not to go about comparing science and religion, but why not ? When the Quran itself ask you to ponder on the creation. 

 

Someone in my family has 'almost' left Islam, I'll give you his version of things. When it comes to Imam Hussain a.s and Karbala, he thinks that Imam Hussain stood up like other leaders of the world such as Mendela or Gandhi, I'm ashamed to say but he compares it to the 300 movie, and other movies where people stand up for something and stay true to their stance till their last breath. Its insane and when you give historic references he would say who knows what really happened I wasn't there and you wasn't there. Cynical, but what can one say. And when it comes to delusions and hallucinations, its one extreme case to make that can't be refuted without deep understanding of their personalities and their movement, which the other is not willing to put his time into.

 

This kind of thinking has a lot to do with the popular culture of Thinking Outside the Box that most people have forgotten how to Think Within the Box. We keep thinking of all kinds or rare and unique possibilities just to avoid the simple and elegant ones that are staring us in the face.

 

All I can tell you at this point is that there is a Creator, that contrary to popular belief most scientists and intellectuals are not Atheists but rather Agnostics. And that from a keen observation of main stream and popular educational media it is very obvious that the world powers want its masses to believe in Atheism and adopt Materialism. So that is something you might want to stay away from. As to the question, why Islam ? Keep asking and researching, and if you can then keep practicing it too as it will only bring you good, no harm. Study Islamic practices and I'm sure you will find they're for the best.

Muslim scholars have been interacting with science since the beginning of Islamic scholarship. It's part of the arrogance of the modern age that we believe we are the first to question things, and that everybody in the past was a simpleton.

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Muslim scholars have been interacting with science since the beginning of Islamic scholarship. It's part of the arrogance of the modern age that we believe we are the first to question things, and that everybody in the past was a simpleton.

 

Of course, but Science was simple then and Philosophy and Logic used to be branches of Science and no doubt Muslim Scholars used to study these subjects and still do but they are not what Science is about any more. Science today is very different from what it used to be mainly because our knowledge of things today has been increased so greatly it is like a hundred times that of what it was before. Astronomy then was based on naked eye observations and some calculations but today it is no more just theories but real knowledge based on evidence. So if somebody used to question then, he probably based his questions on some assumptions and lack of knowledge, which is very unlike the situation today.

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Of course, but Science was simple then and Philosophy and Logic used to be branches of Science and no doubt Muslim Scholars used to study these subjects and still do but they are not what Science is about any more. Science today is very different from what it used to be mainly because our knowledge of things today has been increased so greatly it is like a hundred times that of what it was before. Astronomy then was based on naked eye observations and some calculations but today it is no more just theories but real knowledge based on evidence. So if somebody used to question then, he probably based his questions on some assumptions and lack of knowledge, which is very unlike the situation today.

I doubt there is a single verse in the Qur'an or hadith that we would now see as scientifically problematic that wasn't considered so in the past. The difference is that back then people assumed that Islam was true, and that any scientific fact must be in accordance with Islam. That may often require interpreting the verses or hadiths in an allegorical way. There is nothing wrong with this by the way. Clearly it would have been obvious even to the 7th century Arabs that the Sun and the Moon can't literally prostrate to Allah. This must then obviously this isn't meant to be taken literally.

On the other hand, these days many people start from the assumption that Science is true (when in fact many so-called proven facts are theories that could at any point be discarded), and that Islam's truth is in question. Islam is then viewed from a sceptical viewpoint, and rather than giving Qur'anic verses and hadiths a charitable reading, people take a naively literal reading and assume that any other reading is simply try to cover up for the embarrassment of what the text actually says.

If recommend watching the video in this thread as well: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012919-a-timely-discussion-on-ethical-issues-in-islam/

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Well okay this is difficult and it's not about Islam but organized religion in general. It just seems to me to be very unscientific and full of scientific errors in all the major religions, including Islam 

 

I agree that there are scientifice errors in some (unauthentic) hadith, but as far as the Quran goes, can you please bring one example of what you feel is a 'scientfic error' so we can discuss ? 

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I agree that there are scientifice errors in some (unauthentic) hadith, but as far as the Quran goes, can you please bring one example of what you feel is a 'scientfic error' so we can discuss ? 

 

Ill take a stab at this.

 

One verse that I come across now and again is the whole, "mountains serve as bolts" verse in chapter 78, An Naba.

 

But mountains don't serve as bolts at all.  Theyre nothing like bolts, no more than a broken up saltine cracker stabilizes salt over a bed of jello. On the contrary, they may even be the opposite of stabilizing in that their constant motion destabilizes everything resting on top of them.

 

Before going into this conversation, ill add that...the difficulty with working on topics like this is, people can take a verse in the Quran, believe X.  Then as a modern scientific discovery comes about, they can transform their interpretation to Y in which case the original "falsehood" of the verse then becomes truthful.

 

And if there doesn't appear to be a clear way to re interpret the verse, people fall back on the...oh well, science is ever changing and the Quran is indeed truthful and clear.

 

All of this kind of demonstrates un clarity in a book that when written by a divine being, we would presume would be clear and understandable from the start. On the contrary it is far from clear with many topics, which I would say is a demonstration of human involvement in its creation and alteration from Gods true message (which should already be fairly obvious already due to the fact that it had to be written by flawed people with pens onto stone tablets or paper).

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