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In the Name of God بسم الله

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(salam)

I have been listening to some lectures and somehow i ended up watching this video:

 

 

The verse that Hassanain talked about says that everything is created from water, to which the Atheist replied by saying that Thales has said this 2500 before. 

This caused some doubt in my heart, i know that this could be answered but i dont know where to find the answer.  :donno:

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On 8/7/2014 at 7:42 PM, Muhammed_Ali_Hussein said:

(salam)

I have been listening to some lectures and somehow i ended up watching this video:

[Mod Note: The video was removed to shorten the length of this quote.]

The verse that Hassanain talked about says that everything is created from water, to which the Atheist replied by saying that Thales has said this 2500 before. 

This caused some doubt in my heart, i know that this could be answered but i dont know where to find the answer.  :donno:

Salamun alaykum.

I do not know what cause some doubt in your heart. What's wrong with it if both Quran and Thales have referred to the same fact?

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Mod Note in the quote.

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Actually, if everything is created from water.. then how about fire? i dont see any water in fire ?  I mean, how about shaytan , isnt he created out of fire only and not water? 

 

maybe the Quran meant ''oxygen'' ,  There is oxygen in water. Maybe the word ''maa2'' or ''water'' in ancient arabic litterature actually means Oxygen. 

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Actually, if everything is created from water.. then how about fire? i dont see any water in fire ?  I mean, how about shaytan , isnt he created out of fire only and not water? 

 

maybe the Quran meant ''oxygen'' ,  There is oxygen in water. Maybe the word ''maa2'' or ''water'' in ancient arabic litterature actually means Oxygen. 

Salamun alaykum.

Some commentators have understood this verse to mean that the main source of life is water, and that the first living creatures have been made in the oceans. Some other commentators have taken the water here to be the spermatozoon which is the male reproductive cell or gamete, able to fertilize a female ovum.

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Salamun alaykum.

Some commentators have understood this verse to mean that the main source of life is water, and that the first living creatures have been made in the oceans. Some other commentators have taken the water here to be the spermatozoon which is the male reproductive cell or gamete, able to fertilize a female ovum.

I was about to write that :) I found the tafseer in Al-Amthal.

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Salamun alaykum.

Some commentators have understood this verse to mean that the main source of life is water, and that the first living creatures have been made in the oceans. Some other commentators have taken the water here to be the spermatozoon which is the male reproductive cell or gamete, able to fertilize a female ovum.

 

 

 

There is a difference between the notion that the first principle of everything is water (and that everything may return back to it), and what the Quran says - "and made from water every living thing".

 

exactly .  The Quran states that ''and we made from water every living thing'' ..  That is supposed to mean that Jin has water inside him and Shaytan too ?

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This is interesting. If hypothetically, people recognized that non prophets could have beliefs commonly believed to be given directly from God.  It could throw a spin on things. Because the question would arise of...how did they gain this belief?

 

Perhaps more people are "prophets" than we are aware of.

 

Nice post, its thought provoking. I do not think it should be a reason for doubt though. At most maybe a reason to ponder and reflect.

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This is interesting. If hypothetically, people recognized that non prophets could have beliefs commonly believed to be given directly from God.  It could throw a spin on things. Because the question would arise of...how did they gain this belief?

 

 

Thales belief is not close to being scientific.

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exactly .  The Quran states that ''and we made from water every living thing'' ..  That is supposed to mean that Jin has water inside him and Shaytan too ?

 

It may be safe to assume that what the Quran is speaking about is physical life as is normally accepted (support for this idea can be given by the fact that the Earth is being spoken about in the following verses). The Quran keeps things concise and we must have that in mind when reading it. E.g. would we expect the Quran to say: "all things living, except jinns, angels, souls, things in other universes etc"? If that isn't an acceptable answer then another solution could be the theory that verse 21:30 is speaking about rainfall (Heavens and Earth parting). Thus in context we would accept life to be all physical living things on Earth.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Thales belief is not close to being scientific.

 

I think this is beyond thales. There are and were, certainly great minds throughout history that have had ideas and beliefs that...we discover to be truth in modern times.  And not all are considered to be prophets. 

 

Could...hypothetically, non prophets do this? If so, how? Do they too recieve the message of God? Are they prophets themselves? There are hundreds of thousands spoken of in hadith after all. Or, are Prophets ideas, more common than believed?

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Do they too recieve the message of God? Are they prophets themselves? 

 

I think the latter isn't impossible (think Prophet Khidr [a]) and the former is probably inspiration from God rather than direct "messages". I think that we can even see this inspiration in our own lives.

He didn't really know, it wasn't a fact it was a some sort of theory.

 

Has your question been answered? You can say that Thales made mistakes in this regard that the Quran did not.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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I think the latter isn't impossible (think Prophet Khidr [a]) and the former is probably inspiration from God rather than direct "messages". I think that we can even see this inspiration in our own lives.

 

Im glad someone shares my views. Thanks for that.

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There are many other miracles of Quran. I seen Scholers mostly cling to one like embryology.  Quran also says about expanding the universe, today its taught in schools about that its expanding. Quran also says about barrier between two bodies of water meeting each other.  You can see Atlantic and Indian ocean meet each other but they have a barrier which clearly distinguishes each from other.

 

There are many of Hadith too. Like i read once Prophet Muhammad(saw) said near end times people will be carrying music in their pockets. Ofcourse, MP3 players, ipods etc.

 

How many miracles will Non Muslims deny? 

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There are many other miracles of Quran. I seen Scholers mostly cling to one like embryology.  Quran also says about expanding the universe, today its taught in schools about that its expanding. Quran also says about barrier between two bodies of water meeting each other.  You can see Atlantic and Indian ocean meet each other but they have a barrier which clearly distinguishes each from other.

 

There are many of Hadith too. Like i read once Prophet Muhammad(saw) said near end times people will be carrying music in their pockets. Ofcourse, MP3 players, ipods etc.

 

How many miracles will Non Muslims deny? 

You are right brother, there are many miracles. The reason why i made this post is because of the fact that the Atheist in the video said that Thales have mentioned the miracle in the Quran 2500 before Islam. So i was thinking about how we could prove that the Quran was not coping what Thales said.

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I think that my question has been answered. The reason why i felt doubt in my heart is because the Atheist in the video used it as an argument that it is not something new and a human could have written that in the Quran.

Can you share the answer with us akhI? Or is it what is mentioned in the previous posts?

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Can you share the answer with us akhI? Or is it what is mentioned in the previous posts?

(bismillah)

 

Well first of all, Thales didn't say it was a fact. It was an idea or a theory that he used to challenge other philosophers to either make them agree or come up with another proposition. An he based the idea on the fact that every living thing needs water to survive, whether it was plants, animals or humans. The verse in the Quran however says it is a fact, because there is no theories in the Quran. There is 2 tãfseers of the last section of the verse "We made from water every living thing". One of them is that all living things originate from water, it is the water that Allah has sent down from the heavens. Now this does not mean that plants, animals and humans are made out of water; it is not the materiel that they were created from. E.g tables are made out of wood, that is the materiel but plants, animals and humans originate from water and not made out of water. For humans and animals they all originate from semen and it is interesting how the human body is made of 70% water.

Plants were bacteria in the oceans and Lichens, mosses, and liverworts followed the bacteria onto land and then they started growing and that was before humans existed.

Correct me if i'm wrong but many evolutionary biologists say that life originated from oceans and we human beings were fish and after that we evolved so we could walk on earth and that is where the evolution began i.e the one where we all were apes and developed until we became the humans we are now.

 

I hope this gives you an idea, and i apologize if i made any grammatical mistakes i don't live in an English speaking country. May Allah guide us to the right path and enlighten our hearts with knowledge.  :)

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On 8/7/2014 at 8:00 PM, Muhammed_Ali_Hussein said:

The discussion in the video was about if Muhammad  (pbuh)  is a real prophet and that the Quran has scientific miracles that has never been mentioned before. But Thales have mentioned that every things is created from water 2500 years before Islam.

It is excellent that you are doubting this.  Just know what it is you are doubting.  You are not doubting the veracity of the Quran or your faith in the veracity of the Quran or else you would not be showing concern right now.  

What you are doubting is the veracity of those silly so called "scientific quranic miracles".   

It is very silly to think the Quran contains or gives us factual data or pieces of information.  Why would the Quran bother doing that? Is it so that it can convince us to have a belief that the Quran is truthful?     Don't you find this rather silly? That God has to convince us that He is God and that the Quran is His word just so that we can believe?  And that some people who end up believing are saved because they were successfully convinced by an argument?   Those who ended up not believing were somehow not convinced by the argument and as a consequence, not saved.  Have you ever seen anyone who has ever seen the truth glaring in front of his eyes, and yet refuses to accept it?  

Edited by eThErEaL

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As said above, the Quran isn't trying to create scientific reform but spiritual and moral therefore every pseudo scientific miracle Muslims nowadays are so eager to dig out (out of spiritual insecurity and unawareness of the true nature of the Quranic miracle), including the one about water should first be seen through the lens of its primary addressees. That every living thing is made of water is a very observable reality, even to the unlettered eye of the preislamic Arab to whom the verse was primarily addressed. It says so in the Quran itself when it says water is in constant flow and circulation throughout the earth and within the living beings who need it to survive and thrive. From a modern perspective one cannot but associate this Quranic statement with the fact that not a single living organism has been found to be entirely needless of water in any of its shapes.

The physical or "scientific" realities often pointed out as miracles, such az the above fact about the necessity for water to maintain life, are referred to implicitly with a language that does not confirm nor directly refute its first addressees' ideas of the nature surrounding them so as to not deflect their attention from the spiritual portents of the statements, which are often missed by the miracle hunters.

For example the use of such broad and general term as al-sama' referring to the various distinct and created entites above us, and sometimes to specific entities above us understood from context such as 71:11 where the sending of the sama' stands for the sending of the "clouds" etc is testimony of Quranic eloquence and its claim of being a guidance for people of all times since it does not contradict modern science while not disturbing and neither confirming the notions of nature of a 7th century man, in order to concentrate the attention of the audience on its primary objective which is the conveyance of spiritual guidance. For example while reading verses 2:22,20:53,40:64 which draw the image of a comfortable and protective tent with a sheltering binaa' above (the word is applied to tents and canopies and the like used by Bedouins), the ancients, just like us today, would firstly understand that the binaa' provides them with protection which in turn would ignite their God-consciousness and gratitude 88:18-20"And the heaven, how it is reared aloft, And the mountains, how they are firmly fixed, And the earth, how it is made a vast expanse".


That is the message of the the verses 2:22,20:53,40:64 and nothing more. They could then on their own blend it with their own erroneous views of nature just like we can blend it with our scientific knowledge to equate binaa'/structure with the protective atmosphere and upwards such as the magnetosphere, and all this without altering anything of the message of the verse.

It is worthy of note that although the Quran was revealed in the backward milieu of pre-Islamic Arabia, it nevertheless repeatedly calls its audience and readers upon reflection and observation of every aspect of creation, most often the universe, in order to increase in spirituality. Pre-islamic Arabs did so according to their own knowledge just as we do today and will be done after us, the more scientific advancements are made, and the more God's might is unraveled to the ones who undertake such observation with the correct God-conscious attitude.

 

Edited by Nad_M

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As regards the jinn, they are beings whose essence is, contrary to the earthly substance of mankind, a special kind of fire 6:100,15:26-27,21:30,55:15. It is to be noted that just as we originated from the earth, then passing through various stages of creation, the clay model became a flesh and blood entity capable of procreating 30:20"And one of His signs is that He created you from dust, then lo! you are mortals (who) scatter" so did the jinn species originate with what the Quran calls "smokeless fire" and water 21:30 (water and ethanol can emit fire if ignited for example) then passing through various stages of creation, the initial model became a different entity of which we know little or nothing, capable of spreading its species 55:14-15,15:26-27.

As observed in an interesting tafsir of Maududi, though even now our body is entirely a compound of the earthly substances, these substances have taken the from of flesh and blood and after being made a living body it has become quite a different thing from a mere lump of clay. The same also is true of the jinn. Their being also is essentially fiery. But just as we are not a mere lump of earth, so also they are not a mere flame of fire 59:24"He is Allah the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner".

Edited by Nad_M

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