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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Did Jesus Come?

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Hi Rafidhi,

Quote: Ranting, and more ranting....
When you say, ‘ranting and more ranting, --- I assume you don’t believe the Scriptures, --- which, of course, you don’t have to.
However, when I use verses that were written so many years ago by Moses and Isaiah, --- are you saying they were ranting in what they wrote?

 

--- There are many topics of discussion on Shiachat about Jesus, are there not?
What I want to do is give the background from the OT to show that it was God who sent a Savior.
As I have said so often, I do not believe that Jesus was God, but that He was God’s Representative, God’s Messenger and Prophet.

The one proof of the inspiration and accuracy of the Bible is fulfilled Prophecy.
For instance, God prophesied through Isaiah some 700 years before it happened that He would give the ‘Sign’ for all people that, “A virgin would conceive and bear a son.”
In the first Book of the NT, Matthew records this and says that the prophecy was fulfilled. --- Now if you can understand this, the Holy Spirit of God can come upon a true believer and give a prophecy through them.

--- (If someone predicted a thing to be fulfilled in a few days, you could suspect that there was some indication that certain things would happen), --- but to prophesy something that wouldn’t happen for hundreds of years, --- only those living at the time when it was fulfilled, would benefit, because they would see the results and verify that the Prophecy was true. Therefore they would know that the Prophet was true, and therefore the Holy Spirit from God, was true, so God was true..

And it is interesting that the angel Gabriel, who gave revelations to Muhammad, confirmed in a few places in the Quran that the former Scriptures were true, as it says in Surah 3:3-4, and Surah 5:48.
This same Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary that she would be the one to fulfill this prophecy by having a son, without a human father.
--- And in the Quran, Jesus is the only one who is mentioned as having the Holy Spirit with Him. Surah 2:
87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit
2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.
--- Notice, in each verse it says “We (God) gave clear (Signs) and strengthened Him (Jesus) with the Holy Spirit.

So where are these signs mentioned in the Quran? --- In Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary,
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a “Sign” from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a “Sign” for you if ye did believe;
50 '(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a “Sign” from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

 

--- So you see, in 49, the miracles were the ‘Sign,’ and the changing of some dietary laws were another ‘Sign.’
1n 50 the ‘Sign’ was the fulfilling of the OT law with the new law to ‘Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.’
--- Then the command to Christians, “So fear God (with reverential awe) and obey Me.” --- In the Gospels Jesus said ‘Follow Me.’
51 Is the declaration that God was His Lord also, --- so Christians are to ‘worship God’ and ‘follow, or obey Jesus’ --- Why? ---

 

Because, --- THIS IS A WAY THAT IS STRAIGHT.
So should Christians not believe it? --- However, it is up to you whether you see these as Signs or not.
--- And my last question, --- Am I ‘ranting’ when I quote verses from the Quran?

Placid

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I had concluded Post 69 with this verse, concerning the Arm of the Lord:

52:10 The LORD has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.

--- And concerning the prophecies of the coming Messiah, Isaiah asks in Isaiah 53:
1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
--- (The Word, who was the ‘Arm of the Lord,’ through whom the Israelites were delivered from Egypt, --- now takes the role of Messiah, Christ, in the human body of Jesus. --- So the indwelling Word suffers with the physical Jesus to bring in the new ‘plan of Salvation through Faith.’)

4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
--- (We see how Jesus was rejected by the Pharisees and Jewish leadership and suffered abuse by the crowd who took Him from the Garden where they were praying, --- and they had a midnight trial, to condemn Him to death.
--- But because the ‘sheep had gone astray’ and were no longer following the Shepherd, God laid the punishment for their sin on Jesus, the Christ, to pay for the sins of all, --- but only those who believed it, and in humility and repentance, accepted God’s plan of Salvation, would then be saved.)

--- And at His trial:
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
--- (He died on the cross between two guilty men, but was attended to by two rich men who took Him down from the cross, Joseph of Arimathea, who provided the new tomb, and Nicodemus, who prepared spices for His buriel.)

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed,
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.

--- (It wasn’t that God took pleasure in the suffering, but this sacrifice would end the long broken relationship between God and mankind, ‘who had gone astray,’
--- “And be satisfied.” This fulfills the requirement of the OT Law, which said, “Without the shedding of blood there was no remission of sin.”


11 By His knowledge My righteous Servant (Jesus) shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
--- (On the cross Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing.”)

Placid

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Hi Rafidhi,

Quote: Ranting, and more ranting....

When you say, ‘ranting and more ranting, --- I assume you don’t believe the Scriptures, --- which, of course, you don’t have to.

However, when I use verses that were written so many years ago by Moses and Isaiah, --- are you saying they were ranting in what they wrote?

 

--- There are many topics of discussion on Shiachat about Jesus, are there not?

What I want to do is give the background from the OT to show that it was God who sent a Savior.

As I have said so often, I do not believe that Jesus was God, but that He was God’s Representative, God’s Messenger and Prophet.

The one proof of the inspiration and accuracy of the Bible is fulfilled Prophecy.

For instance, God prophesied through Isaiah some 700 years before it happened that He would give the ‘Sign’ for all people that, “A virgin would conceive and bear a son.”

In the first Book of the NT, Matthew records this and says that the prophecy was fulfilled. --- Now if you can understand this, the Holy Spirit of God can come upon a true believer and give a prophecy through them.

--- (If someone predicted a thing to be fulfilled in a few days, you could suspect that there was some indication that certain things would happen), --- but to prophesy something that wouldn’t happen for hundreds of years, --- only those living at the time when it was fulfilled, would benefit, because they would see the results and verify that the Prophecy was true. Therefore they would know that the Prophet was true, and therefore the Holy Spirit from God, was true, so God was true..

And it is interesting that the angel Gabriel, who gave revelations to Muhammad, confirmed in a few places in the Quran that the former Scriptures were true, as it says in Surah 3:3-4, and Surah 5:48.

This same Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary that she would be the one to fulfill this prophecy by having a son, without a human father.

--- And in the Quran, Jesus is the only one who is mentioned as having the Holy Spirit with Him. Surah 2:

87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit

2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.

--- Notice, in each verse it says “We (God) gave clear (Signs) and strengthened Him (Jesus) with the Holy Spirit.

So where are these signs mentioned in the Quran? --- In Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary,

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a “Sign” from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a “Sign” for you if ye did believe;

50 '(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a “Sign” from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

 

--- So you see, in 49, the miracles were the ‘Sign,’ and the changing of some dietary laws were another ‘Sign.’

1n 50 the ‘Sign’ was the fulfilling of the OT law with the new law to ‘Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.’

--- Then the command to Christians, “So fear God (with reverential awe) and obey Me.” --- In the Gospels Jesus said ‘Follow Me.’

51 Is the declaration that God was His Lord also, --- so Christians are to ‘worship God’ and ‘follow, or obey Jesus’ --- Why? ---

 

Because, --- THIS IS A WAY THAT IS STRAIGHT.

So should Christians not believe it? --- However, it is up to you whether you see these as Signs or not.

--- And my last question, --- Am I ‘ranting’ when I quote verses from the Quran?

Placid

Yes, all of it is a rant,

I know your kind, you are a christian who is trying to indoctrinate and spread your views. You would have no interest in a christian forum because that would be baseless.

But why such an infactuation with this jesus character??

Didn't Moses perform many more miracles than jesus?

And wasn't Adam created without both father and mother?

So if anyone "should" be exaggerated or "ranted" about it should be those two...

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@Rafidi- i dont "believe' in hitler. I admire him. Thats all. Im not nazi either, nazis are dead. Im just fascist. And my political opinion hav no link to respecting christians. Its said in Quran that they are closest to us and jews are most in enmity. I will take Quraan's word for it.

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Hi Rafidhi,

Quote from Post 75:
But why such an infactuation with this jesus character??
Didn't Moses perform many more miracles than jesus?
And wasn't Adam created without both father and mother?
So if anyone "should" be exaggerated or "ranted" about it should be those two...

Response: --- I am sorry, I forgot you were Jewish, so I quoted from the Quran to show it corresponds to the Gospel, but I realize now that you are not impressed with the Quran either.

Since you mention the two great men, Adam and Moses, I think it is an opportunity for you to start a new Topic about them, and others in the Hebrew Bible, to enlighten us. --- We read from a Christian perspective, but I have learned from our Hebrew and Greek Bible teacher, that every name in Scripture has a meaning, and sometimes these meanings reveal secrets that are lost in translations.

However, I will continue to show how the Word (Logos) is very active in the Gospels, and the link is given in Malachi 3, which I will post next.
 

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To continue from Post 74:

I have covered many names and appearances of the Word that came down from Heaven to Manifest God on earth.
--- Melchizedek in Genesis 14, --- the visit to Abraham in Genesis 18, --- the Appearance to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 3 --- the Captain of the Army of the Lord, (the Lord of hosts) in Joshua 5, --- the Arm of the Lord, that provided for the multitude with Moses through the 40 years in the wilderness where it said God delivered them from Egypt ‘with His outstretched Arm’ --- And it says in Isaiah 52:
10 The LORD has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.

And finally in Isaiah 53 where Isaiah begins by asking:
1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

So it shows those to whom the Arm of the Lord was revealed, in the New Covenant. --- The Arm of the Lord was the Word (Logos) who was also the Lord of hosts, --- who was Christ in the NT
John 1:14, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” --- And in Surah 3:35, “A word from Him (God), his name will be Christ Jesus.”

We have more information about the Word as the Lord of hosts in Isaiah 48:
2 For they call themselves after the holy city (Jerusalem),
And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is His name:

--- Then the Lord of hosts speaks and says:
12 --- Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;

--- This identifies Him as the Word, ‘who was there in the beginning with God,’ --- and of whom it says “All things were made through Him.”
Now it reveals the next role that the Word will play on earth, as it says here:
16 Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God,”

 

--- It says, “The Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.” --- So the Word took on the form of flesh and came as the Redeemer and also as God’s Representative on earth, --- who was called God as at the Burning bush the Word said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
And John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
--- However, we must understand that this was all God’s activity from heaven, and did not involve Jesus, --- So it doesn’t say that Jesus was God.

The Lord of hosts (the Word), said this in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He (the Word) came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”

So here is the fulfillment, --- The Word has come into the world as God’s Servant, to do God’s will in Redeeming His people.
The Jews had fallen away and started sacrificing the sick and the lame animals which was an abomination to God, as it says in Malachi.
--- And the Word says, “A body You have prepared for Me.”
“In the volume of the Book it is written” --- In Isaiah 48, where it said God was sending the Word as Redeemer verse 17.
And the Word said, “Behold I have come to do your will, O God.”


Now the link, is given in Malachi 3:
1“Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

Let’s read it this way and we can see the transition:
“Behold, I (the Lord of hosts) send My messenger (small ‘m’ meaning John the Baptist) and he (John) will prepare the way before Me (the Lord of hosts).
And the Lord, (the Messiah) whom you (the Jews) seek
Will suddenly come to His temple (to the human temple that God prepared for Him),
Even the Messenger (Capital M referring to the Word entering the ‘temple of Jesus’ body, --- so the Messenger is Christ Jesus), --- of the (new) covenant.
In whom you delight. (This Messenger Jesus in whom the people delight.)

Behold, HE (the Messenger, Jesus) is coming,”
Says the Lord of Hosts.--- It changes from the first person, 'I' to the third person 'He'

The term 'Lord of hosts' is not in the New Testament, but the New Lord was 'Jesus Christ,' or 'Christ Jesus.'

Christ, who was the Eternal Son of God was from heaven, and represents God. --- Everything on earth is represented by Jesus who was CALLED the Son of God, and the Son of Man. --- also the begotten son of Mary..

(No doubt some questions)

Placid

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I should elaborate on this from the end of the last post:

The term Lord of hosts (who was the Word, through whom all things were created), is not named in the New Testament, but the Lord in the NT was Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus.
It says in John 1:1, that the Word was with God from the beginning, and that all things were made through Him.
10 He (the Word) was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He (the Word) came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
--- (He was rejected from His time of birth by His own rebellious people.)

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- (An explanation of ‘became flesh’ says that ‘it doesn’t mean that the Word changed into flesh, thus altering His divine nature,’ but the Word, who could not be seen, had to appear this time in a human body in order to identify with humanity.)
--- It says this in the Book of Hebrews 10:
5 “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
7 Then I (the Word) said, ‘Behold, I have come— To do Your will, O God.

And what does it say in the Quran in Surah 19:
19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a ‘holy son.’
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

35 ‘It is not ‘befitting’ (it was out of the ordinary) that God should beget a son (bring a son into the world without any physical relationship). --- Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

Doesn’t that say it clearly? --- When God determines to do something, He just does it.

And it says in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Now notice, that it was the Word that came down from heaven to occupy the ‘body’ that God prepared for Him, on earth.
And that body was the Person of Jesus, who God brought into ‘being,’ in the same way he brought Adam into ‘being,’ --- by saying “Be” and he is.
--- There was no human father so the child was begotten of Mary on earth, and was without sin, --- and He was CALLED the Son of God, as Adam was CALLED the son of God.--- each of them were given life by the Holy Spirit of God. --- Adam had neither father nor mother and was created sinless, but in a different body.

--- Jesus had to be born in human form, because angels, or the Word, that came from God could not die.
--- Now notice this verse in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

And notice again in Surah 3:
45 Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
--- It was the Word, held in honor as one close to God, --- was Christ, the Messiah.

Notice this, --- The Word was with God in the beginning, and through Him were all things created, So He is above the angels and the One close to God.
He could indwell Jesus and live through Him, but He couldn’t die,

--- But see what it says about Jesus, “He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.”

Verse 45 says, “His name will be Christ Jesus, --- Christ the Messiah, and Jesus, the Savior.

Christ, who was the Eternal Son of God was from heaven, and represents God 'above' mankind.
--- Jesus as Savior represents mankind, 'before' God, for pardon and forgiveness, --- or for judgment.
He is CALLED the Son of God, and we ‘pray to God in Jesus’ name’ because He intercedes with God on our behalf.

 

(Some of these things are a little heavy, but I keep saying that it wasn't Jesus that came down from heaven, as there are no Scripture verses that indicate that Jesus was in heaven, nor is there a place where it says Jesus was God.)

Placid

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There are many prophecies in the Old Testament about the coming of the Messiah, and Matthew, who wrote his Gospel account for the Jews recorded the fulfillment of them, in order to show the Jews the revelations that came through the New Covenant that God made with the nation Israel.

One of the notable prophecies was where it said in Isaiah 7:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
This is fulfilled in Matthew 1:
20 An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” --- (So the name Jesus, means Savior.)

--- And next, the heavenly name:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

So we have the name of the Word, which came down from heaven to indwell the body of Jesus, identified as Immanuel, --- and the earthly name Jesus, which He was called.
--- (I am elaborating on the names on another topic but I will just say it here simply, as --- Jesus the Savior, and Christ, the Messiah, --- so the dual name, Jesus Christ.)

After the ascension, the names are reversed and usually written Christ Jesus,


However, the question is often asked, “Why did Jesus have to die?”

If He came in a perfect body and was indwelt by the Word from heaven, could He not have preached, and healed the people and have people follow Him, without the hatred generated against Him? --- Could He not have trained the Apostles to teach God’s Word to others, and then God could have taken Him out, a week before the Passover, and there would have been no suffering.

In all fairness, I have said to Muslims, if the suffering and sacrifice means nothing to you, --- then the whole story of Jesus should be a non issue.
It should not be necessary to try and alibi it away with different theories, as though you can take your pick.
I can explain it again, and if some choose not to believe it, than that is okay.
There is no prize or test for an alterative answer.

What is surprising is that many topics are on Jesus. And the topics of discussion are read regularly, I would like to go way back and give the reason for OT sacrifices, and how they dominated the Temple lives of many. --- But how they failed to meet the requirements of God's laws, --- so the laws were changes, and the sacrifices terminated.

 

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I had written about the ‘beginnings’ in the first posts, and how Satan/Iblis had shown pride in his position and was removed as Leader of the Cherubim angels. --- Since he was cast out of heaven, and another was appointed as Leader, --- Satan became the ‘adversary’ of God.

--- This began the great conflict between God and Satan, as Satan had threatened in these verses, in Surah 7:
13 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

--- So here were the conditions, --- God had cast Satan out of the realm of the Cherubim angels, --- and Satan threatened to get even, and he found the opportunity by deceiving the next ‘creation’ of Adam and Eve. --- They were created in perfect spiritual bodies in harmony with the angels.
--- God provided everything for them in the Garden, and gave instructions for them to be obedient. --- They had a free will, but were instructed to be obedient to God.
--- It was a test of loyalty, and unfortunately, they failed the test.

So this is how Satan deceived Adam and Eve, and brought about their fall as is written in Surah 7:
19 "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all that was hidden from them: he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

--- So they were put out of the Garden of Eden (or Delights) and placed on the earth with the animals, so now to live among them, rather than above them. --- As it says again:
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

Satan was cast out of the higher realm, and down to earth where he continued (and continues to this day), to deceive, --- as he is still the enemy of God.

--- But now a warning, with further instruction to the descendants of Adam and Eve:
26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of ‘righteousness,’ - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness), to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:

So this continues to be the state of mankind today. ---  We must put our Faith in God, and trust Him to guide our lives.
--- Jesus said to His followers in Matthew 7:
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

Placid
 

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To continue from above:

--- So what really happened in the Garden that caused Adam and Eve to be disqualified as the champions of humanity?

God had created them in perfect bodies, that were sustained by the fruit trees in the Garden of Delights (Eden).
Since over 90 % of fruits are water, they could be called ‘water bodies,’ as contrasted with ‘flesh and blood’ bodies.

Because the water was not under pressure, the body was not ‘full’ of water, but more like a sponge that retains the water, so the bodies would be light weight, perhaps at ‘neutral gravity’ so they could move about similar to the angels.
--- (I say this because the Garden had four rivers, or fountainheads, running out from the center, as it says in Genesis 2:11-14. and the fourth one was called the Euphrates. --- Which may have ‘enveloped’ the others after the changes in the earth. --- So, if the Garden was that large, and Adam was asked to ‘tend’ it, which is the first indication of ‘guarding’ it, he would need ‘rapid transit,’ would he not?

I had mentioned before that our Greek teacher said Adam (man) meant “Ish” (‘Shining Man’), and Eve (woman) meant “Isha” (‘Shining Woman’), indicating that they had the glow of the Shekinah glory of God, and the Holy Spirit.

So they were in bodies, sustained by the water and nutrients of the fruit trees. --- The water and nutrients would be in harmony with the body so they would be absorbed completely, so there was no ‘residue’ or ‘waste.’

To find a comparison to the fruit trees in the Garden, to sustain the heavenly bodies, we can look at the future Heaven in Revelation 22:
1 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.”


--- So the trees in the Garden may also have been twelve different fruits, --- and God instructed them the kind of fruit to eat. --- And God warned against other fruits, in Genesis 2:
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

--- That was clear instruction, --- But Satan entered the scene and showed them a different fruit, which was perhaps a ‘hybrid,’ --- a cross between two fruits, as that was how varieties developed.
--- (Perhaps two of the fruits were ‘peaches and plums,’ and from the cross pollination of the two there may have come the ‘apricot.’)

--- I heard it said before that, --- “It wasn’t an apple they ate, but an apricot,”
--- There are different links online on the subject, including this comment:
Quote: Culture tends to confuse things and this is no exception. The Greeks called the apricot "golden apple".

If a foreign fruit was eaten that was not in harmony with the body, there might have been residue or waste that would accumulate. 

 

--- One explanation given that it was not an apple was that, “Apples need a period of colder weather, whereas dates and apricots are fruit in abundance in the Middle East Area.”
However, the Garden God created could be with exotic fruits that are seasonal, or regular as it says in Revelation 22:
“Which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.”
--- Perhaps a new crop each month, but God did what God did,

However, to think of the apricot as being a cross between a peach and a plum, --- if it wasn’t one of the permissible fruits then it was wrong to eat it, regardless of how the temptation came, or how it would affect the body. --- But the serpent said to Eve, “You shall not surely die.” --- Was he saying that God lied to them in order to keep back something from them?

So they, of their own free will, chose to follow the temptation and words of the serpent, which proved that they could not be trusted. ---What happened, did they die? --- Yes, they died, as God had said, --- First Spiritually, then physically.

Placid

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To continue from above:

God said, “In the day you eat of it (the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) you shall surely die.”

Adam and Eve had been made in perfect bodies, which were pure before God. --- They knew only good, And they were instructed what was right to do, and they had a free will to love God in return for His love for them.
--- But love desires obedience.

When you flirt with the enemy you are toying with adultery, and Adam and Eve were enticed by Satan. --- This was a choice they had to make from their own free will. --- If they could not be trusted in following God’s instructions in these first things, then they would be unfit to be God’s true representatives.

As I said before, they were in shining bodies from the glory of God through the Holy Spirit that was their ‘life support system.’ --- They had no blood in their bodies. --- They were spiritual bodies, ‘alive in the Holy Spirit’ that was breathed into them to give them life. --- Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."
And they  were sustained by the perfect fruits that were in harmony with their bodies. --- But as soon as they listened to Satan:
1 --- They were disobedient to God, and ate of the forbidden fruit.
2 --- The act of disobedience to God, --- which is sin, disqualified them.
3 --- Since they now knew ‘evil,’ and knew they had been disobedient, they saw God’s glory fade, so they tried to cover themselves with leaves from the Garden,
4 --- This withdrawing of the HOLY Spirit of God, was because the Holy Spirit could not remain in their unholy bodies, so they ‘died Spiritually.’
5 --- They had to be put out of the Garden and re-established on the earth in new physical bodied with a new 'life support system.'

The new bodies were like that of the animals with the circulatory blood system, where they could now eat different varieties of food, having a digestive system, and a discharge from their bodies. --- They were no longer light-weight like the angels, but a heavy body of water and blood, like the animals.

They now had to till the soil to grow their own food, they were instructed to eat the herbs of the field, and would get milk, from the animals, to supplement their diet. --- And because they would eventually die physically, they were given the capacity to reproduce children after their likeness.

So here they were on the earth. Their relationship with God was broken, and Satan had succeeded in spoiling God’s plan. So God, re-evaluated the loss, and said, to Eve, “In pain you shall bring forth children,” Genesis 3:16.
But it was to Adam, that God gave the commandment.

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

--- Because of their failure, Adam and Eve had lost the blessing of God, --- but in the change from the Spiritual body, which would have lived forever, to the flesh and blood bodies like the animals, came the means to reproduce themselves in their children, --- so God would find faithful and obedient ones among their offspring.

However, --- Satan was also cast down to the earth, and continued to be a tester of their offspring, --- Nevertheless, it would be through childbirth, that God would bring a Righteous One to redeem His people. --- But not before there were more failures.

Placid

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Hi Spicen,

I am really surprised that the human mind could come up with such a slanderous thought against God and His creation.

You may not know how to find the answers in the Scripture, so I will give you a ‘one minute course.’
Go to --- Biblegateway.com --- select the one that says ‘100 English translations’
When it opens, --- at the curser on the top line you type in the 'passage,' or the 'word' you want to find.

On the same line, on the right hand side is the selection of translations.
I usually use “The New King James,” as it is the newest version that keeps the verse structure the same as in the King James, but updates the language from the Old English.
--- This is the same as the Pickthall translation, in Old English, and the Yusuf Ali, which updates the language as well as some of the words that are no longer common.


Now to find the answer, --- you type in on the top line, either, ‘Eve,’ or ‘Cain,’
Then you have to select the translation, or version. --- You click the arrow to display them, and, as I suggested, start with the ‘New King James Version.’
--- It will give the list, written out of all the verses in both OT and NT where the name appears, with the book and verse number.

If you have typed in – Eve -, the first place will be Genesis 3:20,
And the second place is 4:1 --- If you typed in - Cain -, the first reference is in Genesis 4:1 --- the same verse, as it is below:

4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.”
2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel.

Or in another version:
1 Adam made love to his wife Eve. She became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “I have gotten the man that Yahweh promised.”
2 Then she gave birth to another child, Abel, Cain’s brother.

This is the way to find any word, or verse in the Bible.

You can do the same with, - Quranbrowser.com, - to get 10 English and 1 Arabic version of the Quran.
 

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I want to continue from Post 85:

I was explaining that Adam and Eve died spiritually because the Holy Spirit, who had been their life support system, --- could not remain within their bodies as they had sinned against God.

So they were cast down to the earth to live among the animals, and they were given flesh and blood bodies, like the animals.
They began to reproduce and they had two sons, Cain and Abel.

They didn’t start out with Holy bodies like Adam and Eve, but they were born in bodies separated from God, --- but they had a free will and could choose to live right, with the Lord, or be selfish, and live for self. --- So we will go over this story again to show how choices, --- even back then, determined the course of life. --- Let’s suppose that their natures were like humans today, who were no doubt taught right principles, but had to make their own choices.


The new method of reaching God was through a sacrifice, or an offering brought to Him. --- And this is written in Genesis 4:
3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD.
4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,
5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
9 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

4 So the Lord ‘respected’ Abel and his offering. --- Notice that God respected the man first, then his offering. --- The person had to be honorable before God or he would not be accepted.

5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

--- Again, God did not respect the man first as he was an angry man whose heart wasn’t right with God

'And Cain was angry' --- which was his reaction when he should have been humble and repentant.

6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

So here was the importance of making the right decision,
--- “If you do well, will you not be accepted?”

Cain hadn’t been “Doing well,” --- but here he had the chance to make a choice to do what was right and good, and be accepted of God.

--- (But the alternative) --- And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.

So there, whenever Satan has a chance he takes advantage.

“And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
(Sin’s choice is always there to try and master us, but we must by our own will master 'it', and make the right choice.)

This is where when one has the presence of mind to call on God to strengthen him, he can be victorious over Satan,

--- But in this case, Cain made the bad choice and suffered for it.
His anger led to murder, and then he lied about the crime.

Placid

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It seemed that one Poster wanted to equate “The meaning of Christmas,” --- or Christ-mass, with the ‘Communion’ that was instituted with the ‘breaking of bread,’ --- the breaking of the ‘body of Christ,’ --- and the shedding ‘of His blood,’ --- which He had instituted at Easter, or Passover with His Apostles, in the words that the Poster used from 1 Corinthians 11:23-26:
--- That the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. "

However, the offering of the body of animals, and the shedding of blood was instituted in Scripture as a ‘covering’ for the sin of mankind.

Moving ahead from the sacrifices that Cain and Abel brought, and the significance of them, --- God had instructed Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that blood sacrifices had to be made when men went to God, either to receive revelation from Him, or in thankfulness for what they received.

It said in Hebrews 9:22 about the OT Sacrifices, that “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.”
--- So the innocent animal was killed and its blood drained out of the body so that it would appear to God as a pure sacrifice.

--- This is all in the detailed Levitical laws where God had instructed Moses to Anoint his brother Aaron as the Priest of the people, --- and Aarons sons as Priests as well. --- And before they proceeded in their journey, all of the congregation had to be purified before the Lord. --- Moses and Aaron were instructed to make different offerings for different reasons, but the effect was using the pure animals as ‘substitutes,‘ first for their own sin and then for the sins of the people.

--- Notice these in Leviticus 9:
1 It came to pass on the eighth day that Moses called Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel.
2 And he said to Aaron, “Take for yourself a young bull as a sin offering and a ram as a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the LORD.
3 And to the children of Israel you shall speak, saying, ‘Take a kid of the goats as a sin offering, and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering,
4 also a bull and a ram as peace offerings, to sacrifice before the LORD, and a grain offering mixed with oil; for today the LORD will appear to you.’”
5 So they brought what Moses commanded before the tabernacle of meeting. And all the congregation drew near and stood before the LORD.
6 Then Moses said, “This is the thing which the LORD commanded you to do, and the glory of the LORD will appear to you.”
7 And Moses said to Aaron, “Go to the altar, offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement for yourself and for the people. Offer the offering of the people, and make atonement for them, as the LORD commanded.”
8 Aaron therefore went to the altar and killed the calf of the sin offering, which was for himself.
9 Then the sons of Aaron brought the blood to him. And he dipped his finger in the blood, put it on the horns of the altar, and poured the blood at the base of the altar.
10 But the fat, the kidneys, and the fatty lobe from the liver of the sin offering he burned on the altar, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
11 The flesh and the hide he burned with fire outside the camp.
12 And he killed the burnt offering; and Aaron’s sons presented to him the blood, which he sprinkled all around on the altar.
13 Then they presented the burnt offering to him, with its pieces and head, and he burned them on the altar.
14 And he washed the entrails and the legs, and burned them with the burnt offering on the altar.
15 Then he brought the people’s offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and killed it and offered it for sin, like the first one.
16 And he brought the burnt offering and offered it according to the prescribed manner.
17 Then he brought the grain offering, took a handful of it, and burned it on the altar, besides the burnt sacrifice of the morning.
18 He also killed the bull and the ram as sacrifices of peace offerings, which were for the people. And Aaron’s sons presented to him the blood, which he sprinkled all around on the altar,

22 Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people, blessed them, and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt offering, and peace offerings.
23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people,
24 and fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces.

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To continue with the sacrifices in the OT.

It became such a part of their lifestyle, that the people brought their animals to sacrifice on their behalf and God accepted their offering, however, in most cases the meat was not burnt in the sacrifice. The blood was drained out to show the unblemished animal after the blood was shed ‘for the remission of their sin,’ --- but the meat was then ‘Koshur’ so would be roasted or boiled and used by the priesthood in the Temple, --- and any surplus could be shared with the poor.

Through it all, it gives the picture that the blood body was the 'offense' to God. --- The fact that Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden where they were alive in their Spiritual bodies, but after their disobedience to God, they were put out of the Garden and down to earth, and they we no more spiritual beings, but were given bodies like the animals.
--- So the human flesh and blood body is an offence to God. Another verse says, “Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God,” so it is only as we are made ‘alive again in the Spirit’ that we can enter the Kingdom of God.

God made this provision for mankind, that if they were ‘obedient to Him,’ and sacrificed an animal as a ‘substitute,’ it was accounted for them as ‘righteousness,’ or right standing with God.

However, the sacrifices had to be continual and regular for the congregation, and for the individuals who sinned.
 

--- Basically, sinful man had to offer the unblemished body of an animal with the blood drained out, as a suitable 'covering' for sin.

--- There were special sacrifices but they are too detailed to go into, so I will mention some other methods of purifying.
Many involved the sprinkling of blood. --- As the animal was killed on the altar. Its blood would be caught in vessels or basins and used this way:

--- God instucted Moses to make a Covenant with the people, which was done and confirmed with the sprinkling of blood. --- It sounds rather offensive to us since blood is normally drained from meat and not seen again, --- however --- this was their lot in the OT.

Exodus 24:
3 So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has said we will do.”
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD.
6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.”
8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the Covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”


And later, more types of offerings with the sprinkling of blood, Leviticus 16:

11“And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself.
14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.
16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

17:6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and burn the fat for a sweet aroma to the LORD.
7 They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations.”’

So, while everything was purified by offering sacrifices, and using the blood to be a covering, --- the Children of Israel were sanctified and re-sanctified as the Holy People, though they had many transgressors among them.
 

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Happy New Year, --- While we can pray for Peace and Good Health, we can also co-exist in relative harmony if we resolve to:

Let Jews be Jews. --- Let Muslims be Muslims. --- And let Christians be Christians. --- We must all give God His rightful place in our lives.

--- “He who won’t answer to the rudder, must answer to the rocks.
Take your choice, but the rudder is kinder than the rocks.” --- Estelle Carver


My favourite verse in the Quran is Surah 5:
48 “And unto thee (Muhammad) have We (God) revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. --- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works”.

--- This confirms that the former Scriptures are true and guarded (preserved). It goes on to say that each of our religions from Abraham have a ‘divine law’ --- and ‘a traced out way.’ --- We are not meant to join together, or to dominate one another, --- but to ‘vie’ one with another.
--- To ‘vie’ means to compete with one another, as in a race, each ‘trying to out do the other’ in ‘doing good works.’

--- What a world that would be. --- We would join together in prayer and practice against our common enemy Satan, --- And work together to have good triumph over evil. --- Someone said, “The way for evil to triumph is for ‘Good Men to do Nothing.’

--- And this is good instruction from Philippians 2:
13 It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world.
 

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There is one more type of sacrifice for ‘purification from sin,’ and it was to be a continual practice throughout the Jewish generations.

It was instituted in the days of Moses after the idolatry of the worship of the golden calf and their breaking of the Sabbath, --- in Numbers 19:

1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come.
3 You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him;
4 and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting.
5 Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned.
6 And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer.
7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening.
8 And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening.
9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.
11 ‘He who touches the dead body of anyone shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with the water on the third day and on the seventh day; then he will be clean. But if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean.
13 Whoever touches the body of anyone who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD. That person shall be cut off from Israel. He shall be unclean, because the water of purification was not sprinkled on him; his uncleanness is still on him.
14 ‘This is the law when a man dies in a tent: All who come into the tent and all who are in the tent shall be unclean seven days;
15 and every open vessel, which has no cover fastened on it, is unclean.
17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave.
19 The clean person shall sprinkle the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, wash his clothes, and bathe in water; and at evening he shall be clean.
21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them. He who sprinkles the water of purification shall wash his clothes; and he who touches the water of purification shall be unclean until evening.

--- It seems there was a desire for cleanliness and a constant washing of clothes, and bathing to eliminate germs and stop the spread of disease.

But this was the killing of a special unblemished heifer which had not been used for work, --- The Priest first caught some blood and sprinkled it seven times if front of their tabernacle, as a cleansing or covering for the congregation.
--- Then the animal was to be burned completely outside the camp. And while it was burning the Priest added ‘cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet’ (verse 6), --- and then the ashes were gathered and kept in a dry place.


So the ashes were used for ‘purification from sin,’ they would put some ashes in a basin of fresh water (verse 17) then a clean person would take some hyssop, dip it in the water and sprinkles it on the contaminated vessels, the people, and whatever was affected.

They would use this ‘sprinkling of the ashes of the heifer’ till the ashes were all used up, --- then they had to find another unblemished heifer, and do the same again. --- It sounds rather ‘ritualistic’ to us, but it taught obedience and accountability to God, to keep everything purified before Him.

When we think of how diseases spread, the Jews were taught cleanliness, even as the medical profession learned by trial and error. --- Until they realized the importance of this type of cleanliness and purification.

--- And this sacrifice of the unblemished heifer is mentioned in the Quran.

Placid

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To continue:

When Muhammad came to Yathrib, which was later called Al-Madinah, meaning ‘The City,’ he was welcomed by the Jewish Rabbis,
They had predicted to the Arabs that one day a prophet would come among them, --- and they accepted Muhammad as that prophet.
They were satisfied with his teaching against idolatry and that there was ‘One God,’ as the Jews and Christians believed.

But when Muhammad began to teach the ‘brotherhood of believers’ --- this upset the Jews. They had expected a prophet to come in under their umbrella of leadership, because the Jews were the keepers of the OT, and the written Scriptures of the Laws of Moses.
--- But when Muhammad taught that Arabs, who became believers in God and denounced idolatry, --- were equal to other believers, they were offended. --- The Jews always held themselves to be above others, and especially the lowly Arabs. --- They felt that Muhammad was still somewhat under their influence because he taught his followers to face Jerusalem when they prayed.

The Jews were beginning to oppose his teaching and Muhammad was seeking God’s guidance, --- and the Lord gave this in Surah 2:
144 We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship (Mecca), and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

--- This added to the Jews’ criticism of Muhammad. --- However, before this, the Jews were reminded of their faults from the Days of Moses, and since then, --- beginning in Surah 2:
40 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
42 And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
43 And be steadfast in prayer; practice regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practice it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

--- (This indicates that while the Jews could recite the Law to others, they didn’t practice it themselves. --- They were not humble before God, nor had they been obedient. --- So God gives them some reminders.)

50 (God brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt) --- And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
51 And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.
52 Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.
53 And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright
54 And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

57And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you - they wronged Us not, but they did wrong themselves.

63 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear God."
64 But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of God to you, ye had surely been among the lost.
65 And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
66 So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear God.

This spoke to the Jews of their faults and failings in the past, so they had nothing to boast of. --- They had broken their covenant with God, chose the image of a calf to worship, and violated the Sabbath --- so they had been rejected of God in favor of a New Covenant.

--- Now, however, they were rejecting this new prophet that God sent to his own people, the Arabs, to bring them back to God.

--- There were Signs given to the Jews, and here is a blood sacrifice from the OT that had significance for them, and for mankind.

 

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But before the sacrifice in the Quran, I want to show the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

I would like to continue from this vision of Fatima which terminated with the shed blood of Jesus symbolically sprinkled on believers, “The souls that were making their way to God.”

I had given many verses above that speak of the blood of Jesus that was shed to cover, or Redeem us from the ‘original sin’ --- and the sins we have repented of.
In the Old Testament, God tried to keep a nation pure, but after many years, the Jews moved away from God, they broke the Covenant they had made and defiled the Sabbath, and began worshiping the gods of the pagans around them.

 

So God 'rejected' them, Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Most people don’t read this to understand it, but God said in,
33 --- I will make a New Covenant. --- A new agreement.
--- Now notice what kind of Covenant the first Covenant was, --- It was like a 'marriage contract,' where God took them out of Egypt, settled them in their own land, provided everything for them, --- but because they broke their ‘marriage covenant’ –-- they could no longer be considered a ‘holy people’ --- so God said, “I WAS a husband to them,” but because of their unfaithfulness, God said this --- in the fulfillment in Hebrews 8, where it says:

8 I will make a new Covenant
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers --- because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

--- (So God ‘disregarded’ them, ‘set them aside,’ --- or, was ‘separated’ from them.)
And the New Covenant was not made with the Jewish nation, but with the individual Jews who believed.
33 But this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Notice the difference, --- “I will put My law in their minds,” --- “And write it on their hearts.” --- The only way that God has access to our minds and hearts is through the Faith and obedience of each individual.
--- So the New Covenant was no longer like a ‘marriage’ relationship, --- but God made a different provision. God sent an Example, His Son from heaven, --- The Word (Logos), to indwell the body of Jesus who was born in human form from the virgin Mary.

So the New relationship was a “Father – Son relationship,” --- which was like a ‘second generation’ Covenant with those who would be faithful. --- And those who were faithful could be “Adopted as children, into the Family of God.”
--- Therefore, God says, “I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” --- But not as a nation, but as individual 'children.'

 

Will continue later

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I am sorry, I mistakenly posted no 95 which relates to the other topic, ‘The Vision of Fatima,’ So I want to continue from Post 94 which ended with:
Quote: There were Signs given to the Jews, and here is a blood sacrifice from the OT that had significance for them, and for mankind.
This is the blood sacrifice that is mentioned in Surah 2:

To recap from Post 93 and 94:
63 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear God."
64 But ye (Jews) turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of God to you, ye had surely been among the lost.
65 And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath:
66 So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear God.
--- (Therefore this sacrifice was instituted in Numbers 19 for the purification from sin,  with the verses in Post 93.)

67And remember Moses said to his people: "God commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said: "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said: "God save me from being an ignorant (fool)!"
68 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!" He said; "He says: The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!"
69 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us Her colour." He said: "He says: A fawn-coloured heifer, pure and rich in tone, the admiration of beholders!"
70 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what she is: To us are all heifers alike: We wish indeed for guidance, if God wills."
71 He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

Notice the identification from Numbers 19:
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: 2 “This is a requirement of the law that the LORD has commanded: Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke.

--- And in Surah 2:
71 "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish."

God was reminding the Jews in Madiah how their fathers had been unfaithful, --- They broke their covenant with God, and they violated the Sabbath, so God prescribed this sacrifice, and said it was to be a continual sacrifice, where they would use the ashes of the heifer to sprinkle on the offenders as a covering for their sin.
--- God was being more merciful to them and still they rebelled.

Next the Lord addresses the Jews in Madinah about what their fathers did in the days of Jesus, --- and it continues in Surah 2:
72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

--- This is difficult to understand so will continue later.

 

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To continue from above:
Next the Lord addresses the Jews in Madinah about what they did in the days of Jesus, --- and it continues in Surah 2:
72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

--- Notice that the reference to the heifer relates back to verse 71, --- the unblemished heifer from the day of Moses.
And the body refers to the One that the Jews killed in verse 72.

This seems to be the literal meaning of the Arabic words
"Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)."

Shakir: 73 So We said: Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow),

--- (This was impossible because there was about 1500 years between the sacrifices.) 

But it gives a different meaning in this translation:
Sher Ali: 73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

The translator and commentator Maulana says that the word translated ‘strike,’ --- can also mean ‘compare,’ --- or ‘liken to.’
This is the meaning that Sher Ali uses, which agrees with Moulana.
--- Compare, or liken this incident of the Jews killing a man, --- to the OT sacrifice of the unblemished heifer,
Compare the ‘body of Jesus’ (as a sacrifice), --- to the unblemished heifer (as a sacrifice in Numbers 19 in the days of Moses.)

In a footnote in the Pickthall translation, Maulana speaks of verses 72-73 ‘as referring to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.’

If we look at verse 71, which refers to the unblemished heifer which was sacrificed in Numbers 19, --- we see it was sacrificed as a burnt offering with hyssop and scarlet and cedar wood, 19:6.
Then it goes on to say in this verse:
9 “They shall gather the ashes of the heifer and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purification from sin.”

And it is to be used this way:
17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the persons who were there.’

--- They would keep the ashes and use them for ‘the purification from sin.' --- Eventually the ashes were all used up, and they would have to find another unblemished heifer, to burn the same way to have more ashes.

So to ‘compare’ that to the sacrifice of Jesus for the ‘purification from sin’ it was a ‘once for all sacrifice,' for those who believe, --- and as the body of Jesus rose again from the dead, it was the Sign that Jesus had conquered death.
--- He had to die, before He could be raised from the dead, ---as it says in the last of the verse:
73 “Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.”
Sher Ali: 73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

 

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To continue from Post 97:

As I said above, --- “In a footnote in the Pickthall translation, Maulana speaks of verses 72-73 as referring to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.”

And he continues:
Quote: The very indefiniteness of the incident is an indication that it refers to some well-known event in history, and as almost all incidents of the stubbornness of the Jewish nation prior to the time of Jesus have been mentioned, it becomes almost certain that this incident refers to Jesus himself, as it was with respect to his death that disagreement took place and many doubted his death.
This inference becomes stronger when we compare the incidents narrated
here in Surah 2 with the same incidents as narrated in Surah 4:153–157, where, after enumerating almost all the incidents narrated here, --- (their disobedience, their breaking of the Covenant, and their breaking of the Sabbath), --- the Qur’an goes on to accuse the Jews in the following words: “And for their saying:
We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they
killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture” (4:157).
The part quoted answers exactly to vv. 72 and 73, only that the name is omitted here. This comparison makes it clear that it is the apparent killing of Jesus that is referred to here. The words you killed (Ar. qataltum) are used, because in the first place the Jews asserted that they had killed him, and secondly because metaphorically a person may be said to have been killed when he is made to appear as if he were dead. Thus in the well-known saying, idha ma
mata mait-un (lit., when a dead man dies), the word dead really signifies not the dead man, but one who is about to die. --- End of quote.

--- (This was the part that was the mystery about His death. --- The Jews had said three times that they had killed Him, then it says in 4:157 that they [the Jews] didn’t kill Him, --- And we will see this later, that the Jews DIDN’T kill Him.)

Quote. 73a The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening,
The act of murder was not completed in the case of Jesus, as the Gospels show, --- but ‘his legs were not broken,’ as in the case of the thieves.

--- (This is the ‘mystery,’ that Jesus was alive on the cross, and then unnexpectantly, He was dead, when they came to break their legs to induce a quicker death, --- they didn’t break Jesus’ legs because He was already dead.)

Quote--- There is no other case of a murder or an attempted murder in Jewish history of which the whole nation could be said to have been guilty, and which might answer to the description of these two verses.
73b. This was really a case of giving life to the dead, for Jesus Christ was dead to
all appearance. (Those actually dead do not return to life in this world.)

(In his footnotes) --- He explained that the words صَلَبُوهُ مَا in Qur'an 4:157, do not negate Jesus' PBUH, being nailed to a cross; they only negate his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. He also explains that Prophet Jesus, PBUH, "died a natural death as is plainly stated in S. 5:117" of Al-Qur'an.
5:117. “I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and thou art witness of all things.” --- Shakir’s translation.

--- The verse, 4:157 is the verse that Muslims use, to say that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, because as Maulana included in brackets in the quote above:
(Those actually dead do not return to life in this world.)

However, in Surah 3:49 it says this:
49 "And (appoint him, Jesus) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I QUICKEN THE DEAD, by God's leave.”

Jesus did all things with God’s power and permission. --- The great example of one being raised from the dead had happened over a week before Jesus was crucified, when Lazarus, who had been dead 4 days, was raised from the dead in John 11:1-44.

Jesus was teaching that He was the Good Shepherd, in the chapter before, where He predicted His death and resurrection, in John 10:
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.”
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
--- You see, Jesus said this plainly for His followers to believe. And this prophecy was fulfilled as it had been predicted. --- Jesus died and rose again.

--- However, Muslims don’t have to believe it, if they don’t want to. --- Again I can use these words from the Quran where it says, “There is no compulsion in religion.”
It said in Surah 2:72 that the Jews killed the man (Jesus), --- and it says in 73, “Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.”
In 4:i57, though the Jews boasted that ‘They killed the Messiah,” --- The Jews didn’t kill Him, --- Nor did the Romans kill Him, though they put Him on the cross.
But the four Gospel writers record His words where He said, --- “Father, into your hands I commit My spirit, and having said that, He bowed His head and died.”
This solves the mystery, --- He gave up His spirit and died, --- and three days later, as predicted, God raised Him from the dead, --- (But in a different type of body.)

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To continue with the last part of Surah 2:

73 Literal translation by Maulana: (Strike him with some of it).
--- But he says the word translated ‘strike’ can also mean, ‘compare’ or ‘liken to.’ --- So here we have the two meanings, that relate back to the sacrifice of the unblemished heifer in verse 71:

73 Yusuf Ali: So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

73 Sher Ali: Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

--- And the last part of the verses say the same.
Yusuf Ali: Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand
Sher Ali: Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

So it is the Signs that give the understanding. --- Sher Ali: ‘and you will discover the truth --- that you may understand..’
These are the Signs concerning Jesus, the one that was dead, --- but “God bringeth the dead to life.” --- “Allah give life to the dead.”

The first mention of a Sign concerning Jesus is in Isaiah 7:
14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a Sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

This Sign was fulfilled in Matthew 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

So Jesus was born and had two names, Jesus, His earthly name which meant Savior, --- and Immanuel, which means “God with us,” --- and this we understand as the indwelling Holy Spirit, who was the Word that came down from heaven, --- as it says in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

The name Christ means Messiah, --- thus we have Jesus the Savior and Christ the Messiah.
So the Sign from Isaiah 14 had come to earth. --- Here is what it said in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
--- Now notice the wording, Jesus would be the Son of Mary, and would be CALLED the Son of God.
Enough for now

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The last part of Surah 2:73, mentions Signs concerning Jesus:
--- “Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

One of the great Signs was the Virgin birth of Jesus as recorded in Luke 2:
6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
7 And she (Mary) brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.
10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.
11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
12 And this will be the ‘Sign’ to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
27And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,

28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:
29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a ‘Sign’ which will be spoken against

Matthew 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a 'Sign' from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a 'Sign,' and no 'Sign' will be given to it except the ‘Sign’ of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

 

John 2 (At the wedding in Cana of Galilee):
11 “This beginning of ‘Signs’ Jesus did in Cana of Galilee and manifested His glory.”
--- And a little while later He healed a Nobleman’s son in John 4:
54 This again is the second ‘Sign’ Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.


--- Now there are 'Signs' in the Quran as well for the Jews, but they are written there to be understood by all readers:

2:87 We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear 'Signs' and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.
2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear 'Signs,' and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.

3: 45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a ‘Sign’ for you if ye did believe;
50 "'(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our ‘Signs,’ - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

Surah 21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a ‘Sign’ for all peoples.

--- And it adds this about Mary in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).

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There were many reasons for Jesus’ coming, but this was His final role.
He lived among men to show them how to live. --- He taught His followers to rise above their prejudice of others. --- He taught His followers to ‘Love God,’ and give Him first place in their lives, --- and to ‘love their neighbor,’ as themselves. --- He taught that “Love was the fulfillment of the Law.”
This led to a ‘community spirit,’ or the ‘fellowship of believers,’ when they were of one mind with their focus on God and His word.

He then commissioned His Apostles who were trained among the Jews, to “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel,”

But after Jesus ascended to heaven, He had another role yet to play.

There was a Personage of God that was a “A King and Priest,” that taught the Law to Abraham, over 400 years before Moses gave the Law to the Jews. --- His name was Melchizedek, and this is what it says in Genesis 14:
18 Then Melchizedek King of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the Priest of God Most High.
19 And he blessed him and said:
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he (Abraham) gave him (Melchizedek) a tithe of all.

Melchizedek was the ‘King of Salem’ (the first mention of Jeru-salem, the ‘city of peace’), --- and also the ‘Priest of God Most High’
--- He taught the Law to Abraham, even to the law of tithing (of giving one tenth to the Lord).

While this is not a very full description of him, it gives more in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham, and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

So this Melchizedek came to earth as the King of Salem, and Priest of the Most High, and would remain a priest forever.
Then it said, 'made like the Son of God.’ --- So we will go on to see the relationship between this Melchizedek, and Jesus, who was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:35.

While Melchizedek was the Priest of God at the time of the Covenant with Abraham, --- and the Priesthood was set up in the days of Moses with all the Priests coming from the tribe of Levi, --- this was the Priesthood of what is called the “Old Covenant of Law,”

And Jesus was the Priest of the New Covenant. --- It goes on to say in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

When Jesus had accomplished God’s purpose on earth, he was caught up to heaven, being ‘crowned with honor and glory.’
9 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

And it says again in Hebrews 7:
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek
14 For it is evident that our Lord (Jesus) arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
17 For He testifies: “You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Placid

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To finalize this topic, (unless there are questions):

I closed the last post with this from Hebrews 7:
17 For He testifies: “You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

As I said, Melchizedek was a Personage that came from God, --- and Jesus was made the Heavenly High Priest, ‘after the order of Melchizedek.’

It goes on to say in Hebrews 7:
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
2o And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
“The LORD has sworn And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’”),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

9:11 Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh. --- (Compare Numbers 19, and Surah 2:70-73.)
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant,

--- I will close with this promise given by the elderly Apostle John, who saw all of the believers as ‘his little children,’ ---1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Placid
 

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Quote from Post 63 on Imams:
Every Muslim accept that Jesus didn't die on the cross (Q.4:157).

Response: --- Does this poster speak for all Muslims?

I see that I had not answered this properly before, because this was the very reason Jesus came, --- “To die in the flesh, and be Resurrected from the dead, to the life everlasting.” --- Death might sound like defeat, but the Victory was in the Resurrection.

Notice these verses in Surah 2:
72 And remember the time when you (Jews) killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and Allah, would bring to light what you were hiding.
73 Then WE (God) said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

So we will have to look into this, because the Gospels say that Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected, after 3 days, to show the promise of eternal life to those who believe in Him.
 

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When I said that Jesus came to die, --- the purpose was to defeat death and to rise above death in a new body. --- Every person on earth is going to die, but only those that are in right relationship with God will be allowed into God’s heaven.

If Jesus had not died and rose again in a different body, there would be no New Covenant with God. --- No New Testament to read and understand.

One thing we have to consider is the credibility of the Angel Gabriel.

Who was he? --- Why did he intervene in humanity?

He identified himself when he announced the birth of John the Baptist to Zecharias, in Luke 1:

13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

18 And Zacharias said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”

19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings."

--- So Gabriel came from God, as God’s messenger to Zecharias to announce the birth of John the Baptist, or John, the baptized, --- who first preached to the people to repent and turn back to God.

Six months later he came to Mary and announced the birth of Jesus, in Luke 1:

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.

32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;

And another appearance was made to Joseph who was engaged to Mary in Matthew 1:

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

19 Then Joseph, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord (Gabriel) appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So here it adds the meaning of the name Jesus, “For He will save His people from their sins.” --- The name Jesus, means “Savior.”

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Gabriel said in Matthew 1:

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So Gabriel who stands in the presence of God, has told Zechariah that his wife Elizabeth will have a son, John, in her old age,

--- And now he tells Joseph that Mary will have a son in her young age, and he announced it, even before they were married, as it says in Matthew 1:

20 An angel of the Lord (Gabriel) appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

And this is confirmed in Luke 1:

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.

32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest;

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel (Gabriel) answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Notice it said in 32, “He will be CALLED the Son of the Highest.” --- and again in 35, “He will be CALLED the Son of God.”

Notice something else: --- God is the Highest, --- and the Holy One born of Mary would be CALLED the Son of God.

It doesn’t say that Jesus WAS the Son of God, --- as though God came down to Mary, --- but rather it said in 35, “The ‘power’ of the Highest would ‘overshadow’ her, and would convey something into her womb.

This “Power” of the Highest is called The Word (Logos). --- The reason we know this is because it says in John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

So the Word was with God from the beginning, and the Word was of divinity, so represented God on earth.

3 says, “ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM.” (The Word, through whom all things were made.)

Now notice this confirmation from Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel (Gabriel) said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Jesus was born on earth, but the Word (Logos) came from heaven.

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