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HamzaTR

"jesus Was Not A Jew"

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Hearing from some of the old Christian members, the claim that Jesus was a Jew, and now seeing this video, I am a bit astonished.

 

 

Please don't think I approve of what he says about divinity of Jesus or ordinary Jews (though what he says may apply to the most of the Pharisees of old and Zionists of today). But, anyway, it seems the Biblical belief is such on the part of Jesus that he is definitely not a Jew.

Edited by HamzaTR

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No offense, but this is trash. You shouldn't be astonished so easily. He doesn't understand what the word "Jew" means, nor where this word comes from!

In the first chapter of the first book of the "new" Testament, the Gospel of Matthew states that Jesus is descended from Judah son of Jacob.

Boom, his argument doesn't work :lol:

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Mary is a descendent of King David. David was a Jew.

 

Again he is not taking things in the perspective of religion, and created his own dogma to suit his beliefs.

 

"...to make money". Here we go. Next he will say that the Jews have a microchip installed in every gentile to track his thoughts and movements. Look, Jews were never really called Jews by other Jews, nor by any people until later on, after the tribes were settled, (Yehuda is the name of Judah, one of the 12 tribes, and means thank, or praise). They were always called "Bani Yisrael", or Children of Israel before that point. Even Muhammad calls them this.

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You aren't kidding.

There are certain sects of protestant Christianity that call Mary a (far be it from her)

 

a wh*re. 

So there you have it folks.

That is a misrepresentation of even the nutcase website you linked to. They clearly say they are referring to Roman Catholicism's version of Mary, not the actual Mary, mother of Jesus (as).

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That is a misrepresentation of even the nutcase website you linked to. They clearly say they are referring to Roman Catholicism's version of Mary, not the actual Mary, mother of Jesus (as).

Roman Catholic Mary=Mary, unless you can support your claim that "Holy Mary, Mother of God", is not Mary, mother of Jesus Christ within these protestant sects, that is.

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Roman Catholic Mary=Mary, unless you can support your claim that "Holy Mary, Mother of God", is not Mary, mother of Jesus Christ within these protestant sects, that is.

 

The point is that Protestants don't believe in all the things the Catholic Church say about Mary that aren't in the Bible. So from their point of view, they are not talking about the same person. They make it quite clear that they are not calling the woman who they believe to be real Mary anything bad.

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The point is that Protestants don't believe in all the things the Catholic Church say about Mary that aren't in the Bible. So from their point of view, they are not talking about the same person. They make it quite clear that they are not calling the woman who they believe to be real Mary anything bad.

 

akh yaba...

ok go read all the other posts on Jesus the Son of God in the Bible and see how protestants change the bible to match their doctrine.

 

Then come here to read the Catholic response

 

 

Below are some links for a comprehensive "Bible study" about the doctrines and devotions of Catholic Marian theology. They also include many passages from the writings of early Church Fathers. I also highly recommend reading "Hail, Holy Queen" written by Dr. Scott Hahn.

 

The first 6 links establish a foundation for the Catholic doctrines pertaining to the veneration of Mary from both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

Examples of scripture passages that impliclty/explicitly pertain to “devotion:”

 

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

 

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water. Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

 

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

 

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

 

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

 

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

 

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

 

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

 

Examples of devotion to Mary from Church Fathers:

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

 

"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379)

 

"Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?" Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).

 

"Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory…" Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446).

 

Some links to guide you,

 

http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-I http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap080400.htm http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/ma.html http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/key2mary.htm

 

The next 6 links are simply compilations of writings from the Church Fathers addressing official Catholic teaching. The 3rd link down specifically pertains to early Marian devotion, which specifically addresses the question of what the “pre-medieval” Church Fathers taught about devotion to Mary.

Examples:

 

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

 

"Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers" Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11(ante AD 444),in CE

"O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity" Basil of Seleucia, PG 85:452(ante AD 459),in THEO,187

 

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou didst conceive Christ, the Son of God, the Redeemer of our souls" Coptic Ostraca (AD 600),in CE (early form of the Rosary)

 

Anyone who has attended a Melkite Catholic Divine Liturgy (considered the highest form of prayer in Catholicism) has heard the liturgy that was formulated St. John Chrysostom and has been celebrated in the East since the late 300’s. The liturgy is saturated with the utmost devotion to The Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

In the entrance prayers and 1rst 2 antiphons the following prayer is offered to God:

Deacon: Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/DILITSJC.TXT

 

One of the most devoted Church Fathers is St. Augustine. He is known for composing one of the most beautiful prayers to Mary in the Church (among many other great works):

Prayer of Saint Augustine to the Blessed Virgin

 

O blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay thee thy just dues of praise and thanksgiving, thou who by the wondrous assent of thy will didst rescue a fallen world? What songs of praise can our weak human nature recite in thy honor, since it is by thy intervention alone that it has found the way to restoration. Accept, then, such poor thanks as we have here to offer, though they be unequal to thy merits; and receiving our vows, obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, O blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, succour the miserable, help the fainthearted, comfort the sorrowful, pray for thy people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep thy holy commemoration feel now thy help and protection. Be thou ever ready to assist us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it thy continual care to pray for the people of God, thou who, blessed by God, didst merit to bear the Redeemer of the world, who liveth and reigneth, world without end. Amen. (emphasis added)

 

http://catholicism.about.com/od/prayers/qt/Augustine_BWM.htm

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/assumed.htm http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary_dev.htm http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/theotok.htm http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/venerate.htm http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/virgin.htm http://www.salvationhistory.com/library/category/apologetics

 

Also,the early reformers had a faithful devotion to Mary, and are perhaps good references for understanding Mary's place in salvation history.

 

"St. Paul says ‘God sent his Son born of a woman, These words which I hold for true, really sustain quite firmly that Mary is the Mother of God." -Martin Luther (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 7, page 592)

 

"A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ, but that she conceived Christ through Joseph, and had more children after that." -Martin Luther (That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, 1523, LW, Vol. 45, page199)

 

"Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned." -John Calvin {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, page 215; on Matthew 13:55}

 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/fr94101.htm

 

Catholics venerate Mary by keeping the commandment to "honor thy Father and thy Mother. Christians are the adopted sons and daughters of God. Jesus honored his Earthly mother perfectly. Catholics just follow in Christ's footsteps through the Biblically based Tradition of venerating Mary.

 

 

The Mary the Protestants refer to is Jesus' mother, who is also whom the Catholics refer to.

 

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't speak ignorantly about it.

Edited by salamtek

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Jesus (a.s.) was a Muslim.  :angel:

 

Jesus was a Jew, not a Muslim.

if you want to claim he is haneef by way of being Jewish, that's a different story.

Are you Catholic salamtek?

 

I could have also quoted an Orthodox response, which would be the almost exact same thing.

 

What I am is between myself and God.

 

Due to the quickness of your response, I'm assuming you didn't read the last post.

Edited by salamtek

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Sure, I skimmed through it. I've read that kind of stuff before. Do you really buy into all that?

 

That's similar to me asking you: "Muhammad's a prophet? Do you really buy into all that?"

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Not quite. But ok, since you do, perhaps we can debate this one day. I'll make a thread some time, Insha'Allah.

 

Which is why I said it was similar, not the exact same thing.

 

Allah wiyak

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Of course Jesus was a Jew. But there will always exist ignorant people with a different opinion. Mormons say that the Indians of America are Jews, doesnt matter what DNA tests say.

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Jesus was a Jew, not a Muslim.

 

Hi Salamtek

 

In the Islamic lexicon, by one definition, anyone who submits himself to God is a Muslim. And that is the definition implied here.

 

And every prophet of God did submit himself to God and was therefore a Muslim.

 

Every prophet of God was a  Muslim, even if he was also a Jew or Gentile. 

 

Thus, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a  Muslim, Moses was a Muslim and Jesus was a Muslim.

 

By another definition, a Muslim is one who believes in God and the Prophet of Islam and that does not include people who lived before the Prophet of Islam.  

But there will always exist ignorant people with a different opinion.

 

The ignorant are those who do not understand the meaning of the word "Muslim".

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Hi Salamtek

 

In the Islamic lexicon, by one definition, anyone who submits himself to God is a Muslim. And that is the definition implied here.

 

And every prophet of God did submit himself to God and was therefore a Muslim.

 

Every prophet of God was a  Muslim, even if he was also a Jew or Gentile. 

 

Thus, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a  Muslim, Moses was a Muslim and Jesus was a Muslim.

 

By another definition, a Muslim is one who believes in God and the Prophet of Islam and that does not include people who lived before the Prophet of Islam.  

 

The ignorant are those who do not understand the meaning of the word "Muslim".

 

In effect, does this make all Jews Muslims, in the eyes of Muslims?

 

The only thing they don't believe in is Muhammad.

Edited by salamtek

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American Protestant Pastor - say no more

 

Brother, please focus on what he has to say, rather than who he is and what he "thinks" on the other issues.

 

If I were to quote people that I approve of in any matter, I believe, I could rarely quote from somebody.  lol. I know this fellow, is anti-islamic more than he is anti-zionist. And his concern for protecting Americans from zionism is not out of his understanding of religion and justice, rather it is out of white supremacy and fear of multi-culturalism. So, this fellow is an American racist, he is just using the name of religion. Kind of reminds me zionists. And I prefer people like David Duke to these persons. At least they are not using religion for their agenda. And they speak more rationally. In any case, I believe, brethren here need to focus on the content of the video, rather than focusing on the person and his other "beliefs".

 

My aim in posting the video, was to get the views of Christian brethren here. And I have questions regarding this issue:

 

What does "jewish" mean to you?

1-) And If it is the name of a religion,

a) Why is it named after a non-Prophet person? Rather than for instance, Yusuf/Joseph, a Prophet?

B) How can the "God" or "son of a God" of a religion be of another religion?

2-) If it is the name of a tribe/nation (of Judah) (which equates itself with a religion), (And I believe this is the view of everyone, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc. here)

a) Isn't it injustice to the other 11 Israeli tribes? As if they were not of the same religion? And do you agree that such tribalism caused those Jews to deny even their own kings, such as Saul who were from other tribes?

B) If Jesus is son of God to a person, and not son of Mary, why would that person say Jesus is Jewish. Is God Jewish (e.g. progeny of Judah, son of Jacob), so his "son" can also be one?

 

And, please, note that my aim is not to attack a religion. So, please do not act defensive. Mention the things you agree and the things you don't. Thanks in advance.

Edited by HamzaTR

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The only thing they don't believe in is Muhammad.

 

But in common usage, the first definition is used only for people who came before the advent of Islam.

 

It is not used for people now - generally.

 

So the Jews of today will not really be accepted as Muslims, even if they truly submit to God.  

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By the first definition, if they truly submit to God, then the answer is 'YES'.

 

But in common usage, the first definition is used only for people who came before the advent of Islam.

 

It is not used for people now - generally.

 

So the Jews of today will not really be accepted as Muslims, even if they truly submit to God.  

 

 

So every good Jew before Muhammad was a Muslim, in Islam's eyes?

Edited by salamtek

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Hi Hamza

Since the 11 tribes disapeared long ago it seems reasonable that their religion is named after the only remaining tribe, Juda.

When I use the words Jew, Christian or Muslim, I sometime mean someones religious belief, other times the cultural tradition in which a person grew up. It depends on the context. So in some situations I would include atheists when I speak of Jews, Muslims and Christians. Jews and Israelis are sometimes synonym, I think this is wrong.

In swedish we also have the word "Muhammedan", less common, but with the same meaning as "Muslim".

Hi Salamtek

In the Islamic lexicon, by one definition, anyone who submits himself to God is a Muslim. And that is the definition implied here.........

........The ignorant are those who do not understand the meaning of the word "Muslim".

There are more than one definition to be understood when we speak of Muslims. (or Chistians or Jews)

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The word 'ignorance' means 'not knowing' something. So if a word has two usages, then knowledge of one only and not the other amounts to ignorance.  

 

I am sure you would agree with that. 

Edited by baqar

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The word 'ignorance' means 'not knowing' something. So if a word has two usages, then knowledge of one only and not the other amounts to ignorance.

I am sure you would agree with that.

Agreed. You may also know the definitions but still not agree with them all. am sure we also agree on this.

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A good friend of mine, an deeply religious anti-Zionist Jew close to the Neturei Karta movement, got engaged a couple of weeks ago to an Afro-American convert to Judaism. A very pretty black girl whose ancestors were not Jews, but black slaves. But now she is 100% Jewish.

 

I think this example shows very well how stupid this racist pastor is.

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