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Chair Pundit

What Would Have Happened If Ali Became 1St Caliph?

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I often wonder why there is so much squabbling over who deserved to be the first Caliph.

I mean, beyond the sectarian religious arguments concerning right of successorship, what would Ali have done in terms of policy-making that would've been significantly different to what Abu Bakr did?

Eventually, Imam Ali became the 4th Caliph anyway. How did he govern? Was he a proponent of big government, socially or economically? How did he approach welfare, housing, healthcare, employment, business? What was the amount he levied on lower class and higher class income?

How did he deal with foreign nations? Did he believe in the right of a nations' sovereignty? I.e. not imposing one's values on another nation?

Did he debate any issue in the legislature or put out a referendum on any issue? Or was it strictly authoritarian?

It would help a great deal if someone could provide a short historical insight as to how his government operated.

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Everyone would have been shia and there would have only be one righteous path. His policies would have been just and would be in accordance with Allahs laws. There also would have been the correct enjoining of good and forbiddence of evil. There wouldnt have been changes to salah, azaan and various islamic principles. The judgement of sins of people and islamic scenarios would have been just taking the whole situation into account. bibi Fatima s.a and baby Mohsin wouldnt have been shaheed. Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s just fiqh school would have been followed correctly. Each of the imam a.s would have had their just rule instead of mr Muawiya and Yazid coming into the picture causing Imam Hussain a.s alongwith 72 companions to be murdered in Karbala. Millions of shias wouldnt have been murdered, slaughtered and tortured today for believing this. This is just a gist of the atrocities that wouldnt have occured had imam Ali a.s been the first caliph. I dont see how any of these things would be taken lightly. It would have made a world and hereafter of a difference dont you think?

When Imam Ali a.s became the caliph unfortunately there was alot going on. The government was a mess, Aisha was fighting a war against imam Ali a.s. Uthman was murdered and that was also burdened on Imam Ali a.s. on top of that he had to fulfill his duties of imam of the people. Muawiya was being deliberately annoying by making people curse him God forbid on Fridays and would kill anyone who refused. Example of hazrat hujr ibn adi r.a. mam Ali a.s government was just in all respects. Bayt al mal, public treasury was the main financial help for the people. imam Ali a.s did exactly as the prophet saww did. He would call to leaders etc as his duty but would not impose as the holy Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. it wasnt like william Beveridges state where each aspect was tackled on the whole. Housing, healthcare, welfare were taken into consideration as they went along. There wasnt a system. We are talking over 1400 years ago here. Legislature wasnt a written concept. It was usually in the hands of the caliphs and operated on an as the situation arose. Decisions were often made in the same sitting. even when imam Ali a.s wasnt caliph, he would challenge decisions made by the caliphs. E.g 5 people accused of adultery were bought to Umar to decide their fates. He decided for all of them to be stoned to death. Imam Ali a.s disputed and gave each person a different verdict. 50 lashes for the slave, the married one was to be stoned to death, one was mad so the law didnt apply to him. One was a dhimmi, a disbeliever under protection of the muslim state who commited the act with a believing woman so ceases to be a dhimmi and should be executed. Many times Umar said Had Ali not been here,umar would have perished. As for the referendum, it didnt need to exist as Allah have imam Ali a.s knowledge through prophet Muhammed saww.

by the way, this is my general knowledge learnt in different settings. Anyone please feel free to correct me. I would be happy to provide references should you request them.

Chair pundit hope this helps. I dont mean to be rude or any anger is within the text is not directed at you. Its history that makes me angry and also it is1.52 am here and I havent been able to sleep over the last few hours so please forgive me.

ma'salama

786

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(bismillah)

  (salam)

 

Abu Bakr was more like a king/dictator type ruler from what I have read. Imam Ali(AS) was a divinely appointed Imam. There is a huge difference, and it affects the Nation state both short term and long term. There isn't anything similar in modern day context but the closest I think would be like comparing how the Gulf Monarchies are governed today compared to the Islamic Theocracy in Iran.

 

1.) In Kingdoms/Dictatorship/Monarchy System, There is alot more corruption. All of the wealth is in the hands of one person or royal family and very little is provided to the rest of the population. Most kingdoms rulers are not religious or they pay off "scholars" so that the civillian population is kept in check. Its very easy for foreign powers to bribe the ruler with gold or dinars. The ruler was out of touch with his people.

 

2.) In a Theocratic system like the one in Iran, you have a Supreme leader that is elected by an assembly of experts(Mostly Religious Scholars) and This supreme leader is someone who has been studying religion all of his life and is a simple, pious, down to earth being who is very much in touch with his people and their concerns. He doesn't hoard all the wealth of the nation and give it to the few. He gets down from his Mimbar or high position and eats food with the average person on the street. He leads prayers in public and there is no massive escort for him holding up traffic. He most likely won't accept kickbacks or bribes are hide stuff from his people. He will always put the interests of his nation and his people first.

 

3.) When you have the system which developed after the Prophets death, the caliph system, though Imam Ali(AS) was the fouth caliph it didn't really matter. Because the system was setup in such a way that favored tyranny and the people were used to corruption and being ruled by force that it was easy to bribe and manipulate a few which lead to even more dissatisfaction. Its like if Imam Mahdi(AS) were to come tomorrow and rule Egypt or USA or Saudi Arabia, but all the former intelligence or most of the previous apparatus was still in place. It was very difficult for Imam Ali(AS) to get rid of the selfish individuals who were in their positions from before no matter how just a person Imam was. Mohammed Morsi of Egypt came in via an election but there was no way the individuals who were in the army and intelligence or CIA were going to simply let him do what he wanted hence they manipulated the people and Morsi was gone.

 

**I don't believe Morsi was a Just person btw lol i was just giving an example of structures in place**

 

(wasalam)         

Edited by FisherKing

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it wasnt like william Beveridges state where each aspect was tackled on the whole. Housing, healthcare, welfare were taken into consideration as they went along. There wasnt a system. We are talking over 1400 years ago here. Legislature wasnt a written concept. It was usually in the hands of the caliphs and operated on an as the situation arose.

Well, I don't see how he could have governed effectively then while he was Caliph. He ruled over a huge area of land stretching throughout the Levantine. How did he ensure that everyone had their social needs met? There was no technology for communication or a means for the distribution of wealth.

What sorts of regulations did he implement when it came to businesses? Did he implement a minimum wage?

Did a central bank exist?

How did he manage law enforcement?

What changes did he make to the judiciary?

I want specifics. Because a statement like this is nonsensical:

Everyone would have been shia and there would have only be one righteous path.

In case you haven't noticed, the Shia constitute the second largest Muslim sect in the world.

I don't exactly see how the Shia have produced profound and effective governing methods. Much of the current political structure was borrowed from Greek philosophers and developed by irreligious 17th and 18th Enlightenment thinkers.

How does it make sense to say that a utopia would have sprung forth had Imam Ali been the first Caliph, and that differences of opinion and disputes would have ceased to exist? Do you not understand how complex worldly affairs are?

Do you even realise the implications of what you're saying?

If we assume your argument to be true, it would mean that God did not want human beings to be tested. Which means that the oppression and suppression of the Ahlilbayt was planned from the very beginning.

It makes no sense.

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Right because what is happening today with not only Muslim but non Muslims doesn't make any sense either o_O and God planned you to reject him too. Wake up bro. History repeats itself quite clearly.

Edited by PureEthics

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Right because what is happening today with not only Muslim but non Muslims doesn't make any sense either o_O and God planned you to reject him too. Wake up bro. History repeats itself quite clearly.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you objecting to?

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there wont be any change even if Imam Ali was first khaliafah or even a prophet after Muhammed(s).

 

Imam became 4th khaliafah and ruled for years, how did that brought any change? even today millions are misguided and not aware of Islam.

 

only Allah is one who gives hidaya and brings people to haq to whom he wishes.

Edited by ShiaHashmi

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there wont be any change even if Imam Ali was first khaliafah or even a prophet after Muhammed(s).

 

Imam became 4th khaliafah and ruled for years, how did that brought any change? even today millions are misguided and not aware of Islam.

 

only Allah is one who gives hidaya and brings people to haq to whom he wishes.

 

How did he not bring change to the way we think and feel? He structured the basis of Shi'a foundation on the principles left behind by his Prophet cousin. It doesn't matter what he did with the political/economical conditions of the empire, It was his duty to guide the people of that time and the time we're living now. There were too many burdens on his head to bring about any history anyway, what can you do when you're surrounded by enemies who smile at your face and stab you in the back? Carry your religious duties, that's more important than worrying about any government.

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ask this man to keep islamic looks before he even takes name of Imam Ali.

 

every word coming out his mouth is full of hypocrisy,

 

I know you guys respect him alot, but convey him my message to first look and behave like SHIA of Imam, and then world will listen to him.

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ask this man to keep islamic looks before he even takes name of Imam Ali.

 

every word coming out his mouth is full of hypocrisy,

 

I know you guys respect him alot, but convey him my message to first look and behave like SHIA of Imam, and then world will listen to him.

 

Please lets not call someone a hypocrite unless we put ourselves first. Now I ask you to give me one instance of evidence which shows he is being a hypocrite. Have some humility.

Edited by PureEthics

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Please lets not call someone a hypocrite unless we put ourselves first. Now I ask you to give me one instance of evidence which shows he is being a hypocrite. Have some humility.

 please check ur PM

 

*******************************

these guys are sunni, but looks like they love Ali even if they follow abu bakar as first khalifah.

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=802483416440350&set=vb.390769014278461&type=2&theater

Edited by ShiaHashmi

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 please check ur PM

 

*******************************

these guys are sunni, but looks like they love Ali even if they follow abu bakar as first khalifah.

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=802483416440350&set=vb.390769014278461&type=2&theater

 

Are you being serious? "Looks like they love Imam Ali A.S" More like they give lip service and love/promote their enemies. What the heck does his facial hair have to do with anything? According to Islamic Sharia in the Shia school of thought, it abides by Islamic Law. Besides, even if he had no beard, his aqlaaq and knowledge is nothing compared to those of sunnis who act like they love the ahlulbayt. You call him a hypocrite?Imam Ali A.S never calls anyone a hypocrite while making a false claim. You are doing the opposite to what Imam Ali A.S preached. By the way "Shia" Hashmi, you are not a shia, for many many times I have seen you post and you never put A.S next to our Imams names, and you make jabs against the shias in general. Lets not make rubbish excuses to hide the fact that what Brother Rajabali speaks of is the truth and you want to demote it, by making such absurd and childish arguments.

Edited by PureEthics

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Well, I don't see how he could have governed effectively then while he was Caliph. He ruled over a huge area of land stretching throughout the Levantine. How did he ensure that everyone had their social needs met? There was no technology for communication or a means for the distribution of wealth.

What sorts of regulations did he implement when it came to businesses? Did he implement a minimum wage?

Did a central bank exist?

How did he manage law enforcement?

What changes did he make to the judiciary?

I want specifics. Because a statement like this is nonsensical

Lol, You clearly dont know who Imam Ali a.s is do you?I suggest you brush up your knowledge on who he is and how Allah laws govern all society every second of every day. You want specifics? Post your question to a scholar who knows history. Non sensical? You are the one who asked for a brief insight!

In case you haven't noticed, the Shia constitute the second largest Muslim sect in the world.

I don't exactly see how the Shia have produced profound and effective governing methods. Much of the current political structure was borrowed from Greek philosophers and developed by irreligious 17th and 18th Enlightenment thinkers.

How does it make sense to say that a utopia would have sprung forth had Imam Ali been the first Caliph, and that differences of opinion and disputes would have ceased to exist? Do you not understand how complex worldly affairs are?

Do you even realise the implications of what you're saying?

If we assume your argument to be true, it would mean that God did not want human beings to be tested. Which means that the oppression and suppression of the Ahlilbayt was planned from the very beginning.

It makes no sense.[/

Well, I don't see how he could have governed effectively then while he was Caliph. He ruled over a huge area of land stretching throughout the Levantine. How did he ensure that everyone had their social needs met? There was no technology for communication or a means for the distribution of wealth.

What sorts of regulations did he implement when it came to businesses? Did he implement a minimum wage?

Did a central bank exist?

How did he manage law enforcement?

What changes did he make to the judiciary?

I want specifics. Because a statement like this is nonsensical:

10% of the muslim world? thats very large isnt it? Its only specified so because wahabis hide behind the sunni title so they arnt identified clearly. And thats has a clear differentiation then other "sects" Look at imam Ali a.s governing methods not lay people. Where do you expect to get that from? No, you dont understand what you are saying. The principle would have been one and differences would have arose in terms of sins and social issues. There will always be differences in a people but it wouldnt have to that extent! I think the devil already started that at the time of Adam and Eve a.s dont you think? we didnt need to have division of leadership after the prophet did we?! are you trying to say God deliberately led 90% of the muslim world astray to test us?

It makes so sense.

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Are you being serious? "Looks like they love Imam Ali A.S" More like they give lip service and love/promote their enemies. What the heck does his facial hair have to do with anything? According to Islamic Sharia in the Shia school of thought, it abides by Islamic Law. Besides, even if he had no beard, his aqlaaq and knowledge is nothing compared to those of sunnis who act like they love the ahlulbayt. You call him a hypocrite?Imam Ali A.S never calls anyone a hypocrite while making a false claim. You are doing the opposite to what Imam Ali A.S preached. By the way "Shia" Hashmi, you are not a shia, for many many times I have seen you post and you never put A.S next to our Imams names, and you make jabs against the shias in general. Lets not make rubbish excuses to hide the fact that what Brother Rajabali speaks of is the truth and you want to demote it, by making such absurd and childish arguments.

brother you are missing the whole point, if a person is not even following simple sunnah in his life, no matter how big orator he is, he has no value infront of Imam, btw his beard is against the shia fiqh as well, he is shaving hairs on his cheeks which is against shia islam as well.you are TOO childish to think I am not shia because I missed to right (A.S) or what ever, please refrain from this.

 

but any ways you are free to follow him and believe whatever he is dishing out.

Edited by ShiaHashmi

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brother you are missing the whole point, if a person is not even following simple sunnah in his life, no matter how big orator he is, he has no value infront of Imam, btw his beard is against the shia fiqh as well, he is shaving hairs on his cheeks which is against shia islam as well.you are TOO childish to think I am not shia because I missed to right (A.S) or what ever, please refrain from this.

 

but any ways you are free to follow him and believe whatever he is dishing out.

How can you judge his whole aqeeda and personhood on his beard? How do you know what his reason is? You are dangerously accusing him of hypocrisy? if we look at the amount of evil we have in ourselves, we wouldnt have the guts to judge others. in terms of posts, a.s can be missed but to criticise shia beliefs at almost every opportunity does bring doubt to mind doesnt it bro?

What he is "dishing out" is from the Holy Quran or prophet sawws hadiths with examples from the modern world? What is wrong with that may I ask?

He isnt being childish, he has valid points.

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I vote for Rajabali to come to his lectures in a camel so he can please Saint SH. Apparently a beard is more important then the words spoken. I suppose next time one is in court, they can use that as an excuse. sorry Judge , we cannot accept the claim of the witness, because he shapes his beard.

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Beard - Question & Answer - The Official Website of His Eminence the Grand Ayatollah al-Sayyid 'Ali al-Husayni al-Sistani

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01136/

Question: Is it permissible to shave the two sides of the face and leave the hair on the chin?

Answer: Shaving the beard is haram based on obligatory precaution, and this includes the hair that grows on the sides of the face. However, there is no problem in shaving the hair that grows on the cheeks.

Edited by Mahdi_theguideforall

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Please, stop derailing this thread. Either stick to the thread theme or go away!

Lol, You clearly dont know who Imam Ali a.s is do you?I suggest you brush up your knowledge on who he is and how Allah laws govern all society every second of every day. You want specifics? Post your question to a scholar who knows history. Non sensical? You are the one who asked for a brief insight!

I said that it's nonsensical that "everyone would on the right path" if Imam Ali had become the first Caliph. Fallible individuals would've ruled after him anyway.

The principle would have been one and differences would have arose in terms of sins and social issues.

For example?

Edited by Chair Pundit

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Please, stop derailing this thread. Either stick to the thread theme or go away!

I said that it's nonsensical that "everyone would on the right path" if Imam Ali had become the first Caliph. Fallible individuals would've ruled after him anyway.

For example?

Omg that comment go away is hilarious.

Great, you calmed down. Good trait there. Umm not really. We would have had 11 just imams with no confusion between their belief and practice system. We also most likely would have had only the fiqh school of Imam Jafar sadiq a.s.After several hundred years of ONE PARTICULAR set of beliefs and practices the fallibles would just spread the same knowledge taught for years in the past. Besides the Holy Quran is protected by Allah that would be used alongside the taught knowledge to guide us. "I leave behind two weighty things the holy Quran and my itrat, (ahlulbayt) whosoever holds on to these two will never go astray" Prophet Muhammed saww

Lets see, murder, rape, theft, injustice and the list goes on. Not to mention the existence of other religions the world with which we have to live by. That is the test, how we live with people and if we will believe or not. It doesnt justify all of the above as Allah didnt MAKE anyone take the rights away of the ahlulbayt a.s.

Edited by 786repenting

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Omg that comment go away is hilarious.

Great, you calmed down. Good trait there. Umm not really. We would have had 11 just imams with no confusion between their belief and practice system. We also most likely would have had only the fiqh school of Imam Jafar sadiq a.s.After several hundred years of ONE PARTICULAR set of beliefs and practices the fallibles would just spread the same knowledge taught for years in the past. Besides the Holy Quran is protected by Allah that would be used alongside the taught knowledge to guide us. "I leave behind two weighty things the holy Quran and my itrat, (ahlulbayt) whosoever holds on to these two will never go astray" Prophet Muhammed saww

OK. I ask you, then, three simple questions. If you do not have an answer then be honest to yourself and admit ignorance. I'll greatly appreciate it.

1. What "knowledge," specifically, do we lack now that we would have had otherwise?

2. If this knowledge is so important, so essential, and we don't have it, does that not mean Islam failed in delivering its message, at least in its entirety?

3. How would this "knowledge" have shaped our current affairs to be less volatile or confusing?

Note: if the "knowledge" you're referring to is merely an accurate "belief," then respond to question 1 in that context.

Lets see, murder, rape, theft, injustice and the list goes on. Not to mention the existence of other religions the world with which we have to live by. That is the test, how we live with people and if we will believe or not. It doesnt justify all of the above as Allah didnt MAKE anyone take the rights away of the ahlulbayt a.s.

Which means nothing would have essentially changed had Imam Ali become the first Caliph. Fast forward to modernity, we'd still be experiencing the same social issues, and be living alongside people with different belief systems.

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OK. I ask you, then, three simple questions. If you do not have an answer then be honest to yourself and admit ignorance. I'll greatly appreciate it.

1. What "knowledge," specifically, do we lack now that we would have had otherwise?

2. If this knowledge is so important, so essential, and we don't have it, does that not mean Islam failed in delivering its message, at least in its entirety?

3. How would this "knowledge" have shaped our current affairs to be less volatile or confusing?

Note: if the "knowledge" you're referring to is merely an accurate "belief," then respond to question 1 in that context.

Which means nothing would have essentially changed had Imam Ali become the first Caliph. Fast forward to modernity, we'd still be experiencing the same social issues, and be living alongside people with different belief systems.

 

 

 

 

lol, I didnt say I had all the knowledge in the world. I'm not a marja or a scholar I would easily say I'm ignorant without your humble request.

 

you don't get it do you? 

 

1.) we have the KNOWLEDGE from the ahlulbayt (which was given by Allah through PROPHET SAWW THE BEST PERSON AND MESSENGER OF Allah EVER KNOWN TO MAN) which is only known to learned shias. Because they believe in them and have taken their teachings on board.  whereas because of this change of khilafat issue its has been distorted and misinterpreted causing a divide of 72 sects! which is again the basis of my initial response...its so simple

 

2.) AGAIN, very few people have it  (the TEACHINGS OF PROPHET SAWW THROUGH THE AHLULBAYT AS AND THE HOLY QURAN) because of the whole history I just took half an hour to respond to. The 10% of the muslim world has it.. had imam Ali a..s been the first caliph that would have come its way and implemented over the entire MUSLIM UMMAH

 

3.) of course everything will be less volatile and confusing. if the CORRECT knowledge of the AHLULBAYT A.S given and shaped by Allah ALMIGHTY'S KNOWLEDGE and Holy Quran and was IMPLEMENTED by EVERYONE in this day and age (If imam Ali was given the right of caliphate and it continued as I SAID ABOVE WITHIN MY ARGUMENTS) then there will be correct justice as it is knowledge given by Allah who knows EVERYTHING. How hard is it to fathom?

 

KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF GO HAND IN HAND! in order to believe you have to learn knowledge!

 

you need to understand the foundation of the argument and who we are talking about first! Then can you argue on any grounds...

 

 

The same social issues WOULD BE TACKLED VERY WELL, HAD IMAM ALI A.S BEEN THE FIRST CALIPH AND HAD IT GONE TO HOW IT SHOULD HAVE GONE and there would be less injustice done to innocent PEOPLE..

 

As for different belief systems it is covering  RELIGION again, it may be dealt with in an even better way HAD THE TEACHINGS OF THE AHLULBAYT A.S. BEEN IMPLEMENTED AND BELIEVED IF IMAM ALI A.S HAD HIS RIGHT...) no one can be forced to believe.. Christianity and Judaism exist because of their HOLY BOOKS other religions have been amended, changed with people adding things in creating separate belief systems. There will always be satan on this earth to try and lead people astray. He STILL would be here doing his job... 

 

maybe you should admit ignorance  dear?

Edited by 786repenting

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1.) we have the KNOWLEDGE from the ahlulbayt (which was given by Allah through PROPHET SAWW THE BEST PERSON AND MESSENGER OF Allah EVER KNOWN TO MAN) which is only known to learned shias. Because they believe in them and have taken their teachings on board. whereas because of this change of khilafat issue its has been distorted and misinterpreted causing a divide of 72 sects! which is again the basis of my initial response...its so simple

It's only known to the "learned ones?" That tells me nothing. It just demonstrates to me that you just don't know what you're talking about.

What is preventing you from comprehending this mysterious "knowledge" you speak of? Intellectually laziness?

And if, for some unknown reason, you are unable to comprehend it except for a special "elite," how is Islam even remotely a religion for everybody to understand and benefit from?

2.) AGAIN, very few people have it (the TEACHINGS OF PROPHET SAWW THROUGH THE AHLULBAYT AS AND THE HOLY QURAN) because of the whole history I just took half an hour to respond to. The 10% of the muslim world has it.. had imam Ali a..s been the first caliph that would have come its way and implemented over the entire MUSLIM UMMAH

Are you actually inept? First you tell me that only a few "learned" Shi'a have obtained this knowledge. And now you tell me 10% of the Muslim world has it, which is a majority of the Shia.

Why aren't you included in that majority?

Why are you contradicting yourself?

3.) of course everything will be less volatile and confusing. if the CORRECT knowledge of the AHLULBAYT A.S given and shaped by Allah ALMIGHTY'S KNOWLEDGE and Holy Quran and was IMPLEMENTED by EVERYONE in this day and age (If imam Ali was given the right of caliphate and it continued as I SAID ABOVE WITHIN MY ARGUMENTS) then there will be correct justice as it is knowledge given by Allah who knows EVERYTHING. How hard is it to fathom?

Prove to me how the practicing Shi'a, within the 10% as you mentioned, are far superior in every way by having this knowledge.

Fantasies about the wonders of this "knowledge" being applied by the majority is meaningless if you can't prove how it works with the minority.

The same social issues WOULD BE TACKLED VERY WELL, HAD IMAM ALI A.S BEEN THE FIRST CALIPH AND HAD IT GONE TO HOW IT SHOULD HAVE GONE and there would be less injustice done to innocent PEOPLE..

Again, how? You're just speaking in generalities.

What is "correct justice," specifically? You're simply spouting concepts without providing any substance.

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It's only known to the "learned ones?" That tells me nothing. It just demonstrates to me that you just don't know what you're talking about.

What is preventing you from comprehending this mysterious "knowledge" you speak of? Intellectually laziness?

And if, for some unknown reason, you are unable to comprehend it except for a special "elite," how is Islam even remotely a religion for everybody to understand and benefit from?

Are you actually inept? First you tell me that only a few "learned" Shi'a have obtained this knowledge. And now you tell me 10% of the Muslim world has it, which is a majority of the Shia.

Why aren't you included in that majority?

Why are you contradicting yourself?

Prove to me how the practicing Shi'a, within the 10% as you mentioned, are far superior in every way by having this knowledge.

Fantasies about the wonders of this "knowledge" being applied by the majority is meaningless if you can't prove how it works with the minority.

Again, how? You're just speaking in generalities.

What is "correct justice," specifically? You're simply spouting concepts without providing any substance.

 

 

You are just totally confused. After I reply to this, I am not going to even bother. Clearly I am wasting my time as you just don't get it. 

 

Learned ones. Shias who have knowledge, Einstein. it isn't "mysterious" knowledge, I have been saying this since my first post. "everyone would have been shia" meaning they would have have and adopted and believed in everything the AHLULBAYT A.S taught. You have twisted your own argument. The correct ISLAM i.e. Shia Islam is what the world would have benefitted from had imam Ali a.s. become the first caliph! duhh....

 

LOL you the inept one dear. Learned ones are included within the 10%. That means they all hold the same Knowledge and beliefs of the ahlulbayt a.s! You arn't even trying to understand and instead are being stubborn like a baby.

 

hahaha, it is evident through shias. Maybe if you meet one and discuss, you will understand. I didn't say they are superior, my initial point was that the ahlulbyat i.e. imam Ali a.s was superior and more worthy of being the first caliph. The argument that you have seemed to lost on your way here.

 

Correct justice, in reference to your "legislatures" and "referendum" points in the initial post. i.e. the principle of being just in social issues, when people commit sin and justice between people. 

 

There isn't any point in arguing with you because a.) you lost your initial argument and are confused. b.) you are continuously being stubborn in trying to combat every argument instead of bothering to contemplate on it.

 

good luck in your search for your answer

 

Sayonara 

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Learned ones. Shias who have knowledge, Einstein. it isn't "mysterious" knowledge, I have been saying this since my first post. "everyone would have been shia" meaning they would have have and adopted and believed in everything the AHLULBAYT A.S taught. You have twisted your own argument. The correct ISLAM i.e. Shia Islam is what the world would have benefitted from had imam Ali a.s. become the first caliph! duhh....

Thanks for wasting my time. Apparently you don't realise that the current wealth of "knowledge" bequeathed to the Shi'a, acquired from the Ahlilbayt, hasn't actually ceased disputes within the Shi'a community over jurisprudential practices, nor issues related to politics and economics, nor even social issues.

So your argument that the entire world could have become Shi'a is meaningless. It wouldn't have had any practically beneficial outcome. There would still be differences of opinion and ideological persuasion within the fold of Shi'ism as there is already.

It's frankly laughable that you think God's message was not strong enough to be able to influence the world into accepting it only because the enemies subverted His message being spread. Why would God allow that to happen?

But then... if God had spread the message about His religion properly in order for everyone to accept it, with ease, no one would be deserving of hell.

You're not confused. You're utterly clueless. Your arguments are inane and internally incoherent. And the discerning amongst the readers can see it.

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Thanks for wasting my time. Apparently you don't realise that the current wealth of "knowledge" bequeathed to the Shi'a, acquired from the Ahlilbayt, hasn't actually ceased disputes within the Shi'a community over jurisprudential practices, nor issues related to politics and economics, nor even social issues.

So your argument that the entire world could have become Shi'a is meaningless. It wouldn't have had any practically beneficial outcome. There would still be differences of opinion and ideological persuasion within the fold of Shi'ism as there is already.

It's frankly laughable that you think God's message was not strong enough to be able to influence the world into accepting it only because the enemies subverted His message being spread. Why would God allow that to happen?

But then... if God had spread the message about His religion properly in order for everyone to accept it, with ease, no one would be deserving of hell.

You're not confused. You're utterly clueless. Your arguments are inane and internally incoherent. And the discerning amongst the readers can see it.

 

Wasting your time? bro, I took time out to reply to your thread. you should be appreciative of that and instead you just picked it up and threw  it right back. I don't get it. You seem to twist every argument at every interval. When did I say the Entire world would be shia? I said the Muslim UMMAH would have been. it is just so black and white so why you do you see Grey.EXACTLY MY POINT! you are the one who said about God allowing it to happen! now YOU are contradicting yourself! I TOLD you that it was history that made the effect on the muslims today!

Exactly. There is something called free will love. Which humans use in the wrong way. God isn't going to interfere is he now? he is going to watch how people deal with it and judge them on that. The whole argument started in Imam Ali a.s. being the first caliph (HAD IT HAPPENED)

 

haha just because you couldn't reply to 80% of my arguments you are using these sentences to defend yourself. Anyone can see how incoherent you are, you couldn't even stick to your own thread of an argument! I guess the discerning ones probably picked up your confusion within the posts, atleast mine flowed continuously unlike yours. so please, grow up. 

Edited by 786repenting

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When did I say the Entire world would be shia? 

 

Here?

 

The correct ISLAM i.e. Shia Islam is what the world would have benefitted from had imam Ali a.s. become the first caliph! duhh....  

 

Your ability to apply logic is abysmal.

 

So I assume you believe the non-Shia Muslim community are, in fact, not Muslim at all?

And if you still consider them to be Muslim, why are Shia beliefs so important?

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