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Haydar Husayn

Do You Agree With This Statement?

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Do you agree with the following statement?

The only difference between Allah and the Imams (as) is that they are His slaves?

EDIT: Just to be clear, the question presupposes that the Imams are created by Allah.

You might also want to consider the following:

In one of his speeches in Najaf given in the form of a sermon, Imam [Khomeini] recommended: “Recite Ziyarat-e-Rajabiye, because this ziyarat mentions the status of the Infallibles of Allah, such as: ‘There is no difference between you (Allah) and them except that they are your slaves.’”

Imam emphasised this and said: “Only their being a slave causes the difference between them and Allah. Otherwise all the strengths of Allah are in their hands as well.”

He then said: “Recite this ziyarat so that if anything of the status of the Infallibes of Allah has been narrated for you, you consider it probable and do not reject it.”

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I think that being His slaves includes the idea that they are created.

In terms of anything you like.

 

So you are implying the question with being a slave in a literal way, is the only difference?  Nothing more, nothing less? Not for example being imams? So is being imams part of slave-ship by your question?

Edited by PureEthics

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I think that being His slaves includes the idea that they are created.

Still the answer is no. Imams are corporal (have a body), they had common human problems such as hunger & thirst, they had the ability to make mistakes and forget things, and, most importantly, they have absolutely no power of their own.

On the other hand, Allah does not have a body, does not hunger and thirst, does not forget, and is omnipotent by the very virtue of being the almighty. He is dependent on nothing.

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So you are implying the question with being a slave in a literal way, is the only difference?

I don't want to be too leading, but for example, there is no difference in knowledge, power, etc. The only difference is that the Imams are created by Allah, and as His slaves are completely obedient to Him.

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I don't want to be too leading, but for example, there is no difference in knowledge, power, etc. The only difference is that the Imams are created by Allah, and as His slaves are completely obedient to Him.

No. Imams have no power of their own. They have no knowledge that wasn't given to them by Allah. They are, just as other humans are, completely dependent on the almighty. The almighty, himself, depends on nothing.

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I don't want to be too leading, but for example, there is no difference in knowledge, power, etc. The only difference is that the Imams are created by Allah, and as His slaves are completely obedient to Him.

 

Well, clearly if they are a creation, logically, there is a difference in for example power and knowledge. However, simply put, Allah can give His attributes to whom ever He pleases, in a non absolute way. For example, creating life and bringing the dead, was given to Isa A.S. All the imams A.S, are given what they ask for, by the permission of Allah. The imams are dependent on Allah. Allah is all knowing, however if Allah wills, or the imams ask Allah to know something they will be granted permission. No matter what ability or attribute an imam is given by Allah, does not make them divine. Why? Simply because they are created beings who are dependent on God. Just to give an example, Allah is eternal, in terms of outside of time-space-matter. So is our souls. Are we divine? No. Why? Allah created our souls and gave such ability to them. Divinity implies absoluteness. I hope my post is on topic.

 

(wasalam)

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If the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã was not forgetful how the Imams (a.s) be? Just what are the mistakes they (a.s) made and what did they forget?

Prophet forgot a prayer. Adam, another prophet, made a mistake and was subsequently kicked out of paradise. I can't list mistakes or things that each individual imam forgot, but the fact that Sahw an-Nabi exists is sufficient because Nabi is greater than Imams.

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(bismillah)  (wasalam)

 

I believe this statement is from Ziyarat Al-Rajabia. It's worth to mention that there are no reliable Hadiths which the Imams(as) make such statements about themselves. This is my interpretation of it(Not that it means anything, just my two cents).

 

Moreover, from it's face literal value, it's pure Shirk. To say that the Ahlulbayt are the same as Allah in the sense of their capacity, capability, attributes, knowledge, power ect is wrong. Allah is divine and incomparable to his creation, while the Ahlulbayt are not divine and can be comparable to Allah's creation(for example, comparing physical attributes of the Imams with their companions ect).

 

At the same time though, the context is ambiguous and open to many different interpretations, both  which can be problematic or acceptable. For example, one could interpret it in a way but saying that they are equal in obedience, in a sense that, obeying the Ahlulbayt(AS) and Allah(swt) is the same. Or disobeying the prophet and the Imams is the same as disobeying Allah. Based on such interpretation, the statement might be deemed acceptable without conflicting with Tawheed.

 

However, to go on about taking the literal face value meaning of this statement and say for example,  "Ali = Allah , Allah = Ali" (As Tawhidi did and tried to justify it using this Ziyarah) is not justifiable per Shari'a, and is rather outright Shirk and Kufr, without a doubt.

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 أسألك بما نطق فيهم من مشيّتك فجعلتهم معادن لكلماتك وأركاناً لتوحيدك وآياتك ومقاماتك التي لا تعطيل لها في كلّ مكان يعرفك بها من عرفك لا فرق بينك وبينها
إلاّانّهم عبادك وخلقك

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/2873/

 

It is from a commonly recited du'a in the month of Rajab in Mafatih al Jinaan and I have always been perplexed by it. The pronoun is haa not hum 

in the word baynahaa, so to me it means there is no difference between You and your will accept they are your servants and creatures. The Imams 

are custodians of God's will, etc.

 

This was my understanding for many years but recently I have changed my view because a single du'a can not be a basis for 'aqaa'id. These du'as are not

mutawatir nor written by the Imams nor dictated by them. They are aahaad.

 

There is absolutely a difference between God and His creatures other than them being His slaves. They do not know when the day of Judgement is. They do not possess knowledge of the unseen. They are not omnipotent nor omnipresent etc.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The Imams (AS), despite having lofty divine positions, were still God's servants and that they had all of these virtues, acts of miraculous nature and positions by God's permission and His support. They depend on God in their essence as they depend on God in their attributes and are not independent of Him.

 

Imam Sadiq (AS) in response to someone who thought of him as a deity said: “We are God's servants created by Him to worship Him. (Rawandi, Qutb ud-Din, al-Khara'ej wal-Jara'eh, vol.2, p.637, Institute of Imam Mahdi ,Qom, first print, 1987

 

 ." Elsewhere he says: “By Allah, we are servants created by Him and we have a God whom we worship. If we do not worship Him He would chastise us

Shahr Ashoub, Muhammad, al-Manaqeb, vol.4, p.219, Institute of Allame Publications, Qom, 2001

 

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I voted a 'No.'

 

But,

 

If this statement is part of some panegyric poem praising the Ahl al-bayt to the hilt, given I can see its context and conclude from where the sayer is coming and where he is going, I might allow it to pass through the Shirk hammer for the sake of poetic licence, for we know that much of our praise of Ahl al-bayt is based on poetical exaggeration than on philosophical, theological, doctrinal framework.

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I voted a 'No.'

 

But,

 

If this statement is part of some panegyric poem praising the Ahl al-bayt to the hilt, given I can see its context and conclude from where the sayer is coming and where he is going, I might allow it to pass through the Shirk hammer for the sake of poetic licence, for we know that much of our praise of Ahl al-bayt is based on poetical exaggeration than on philosophical, theological, doctrinal framework.

It's not from a poem.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

لا فرق بينك و بينها الّا انهم عبادك و خلقك فتقها و رتقها بيدك، بدؤها منك و عودها اليك

No difference between you and them, but they are your servant and creature...

 

Mafatih al- Jinan, Prayer of Rajab month.

 

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I don't want to be too leading, but for example, there is no difference in knowledge, power, etc. The only difference is that the Imams are created by Allah, and as His slaves are completely obedient to Him.

 

The Knowledge of Allah cannot be compared to that of the Imams. Allah is All Knowing, Imams are not. Allah gives some His knowledge to his humble servants (Prophets, Imams, Awlia and even lesser human beings). Same is the case with power. Allah is All Powerful. He gives some power to his humble servants and creations. But there is no comparison.

 

Prophet forgot a prayer. Adam, another prophet, made a mistake and was subsequently kicked out of paradise. I can't list mistakes or things that each individual imam forgot, but the fact that Sahw an-Nabi exists is sufficient because Nabi is greater than Imams.

 

 

Masooms (Prophets and Imams) are sinless, mistake free and error free. And they don't forget either.

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