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Haydar Husayn

Do You Agree With This Statement?

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Divine realities are not matters of people's votes.

Obviously. The vote isn't to determine he truth of the statement, it's simply to get an impression of people's position on a particular statement. The truth of the statement can be discussed in the comments.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Masooms (Prophets and Imams) are sinless, mistake free and error free. And they don't forget either.

Holy Prophet forgot to pray once. If you don't think he can ever forget or make mistakes, he must have abandoned prayer on purpose (nauthubillah).

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Looking at the dua, with the statement.. It makes perfect sense, and I agree with such a statement.

قل إنما أنا بشر مثلكم يوحى إلي أنما إلهكم إله واحد فمن كان يرجو لقاء ربه فليعمل عملا صالحا ولا يشرك بعبادة ربه أحدا

This is shirk and goes against the Quran.

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(bismillah)  (wasalam)

 

I believe this statement is from Ziyarat Al-Rajabia. It's worth to mention that there are no reliable Hadiths which the Imams(as) make such statements about themselves. This is my interpretation of it(Not that it means anything, just my two cents).

 

Moreover, from it's face literal value, it's pure Shirk. To say that the Ahlulbayt are the same as Allah in the sense of their capacity, capability, attributes, knowledge, power ect is wrong. Allah is divine and incomparable to his creation, while the Ahlulbayt are not divine and can be comparable to Allah's creation(for example, comparing physical attributes of the Imams with their companions ect).

 

At the same time though, the context is ambiguous and open to many different interpretations, both  which can be problematic or acceptable. For example, one could interpret it in a way but saying that they are equal in obedience, in a sense that, obeying the Ahlulbayt(AS) and Allah(swt) is the same. Or disobeying the prophet and the Imams is the same as disobeying Allah. Based on such interpretation, the statement might be deemed acceptable without conflicting with Tawheed.

 

However, to go on about taking the literal face value meaning of this statement and say for example,  "Ali = Allah , Allah = Ali" (As Tawhidi did and tried to justify it using this Ziyarah) is not justifiable per Shari'a, and is rather outright Shirk and Kufr, without a doubt.

1- ورد في بصائر الدرجات أن أبا عبد الله (ع) قال لإسماعيل بن عبد العزيز " لاترفعوا البناءَ، فوق طاقتنا فينهدم، اجعلونا عبيداً مخلوقين وقولوا فينا ما شئتم " وفي رواية القطب الرواندي في الخرائج والجرائح "قولوا فينا ماشئتم إلاّ البنوة".

 

2- نقل الشيخ الطبرسي في كتابه الاحتجاج عن أمير المؤمنين أنه قال " لاتتجاوزوا بنا العبودية ثم قولوا فينا ماشئتم ولن تبلغوا، وإياكم والغلو كغلوِّ النصارى فإنّي بريء من الغالين".

 

3- ورد في مختصر بصائر الدرجات للحسن بن سليمان الحلي في رواية عن ابي عبد الله (ع) أنه قال لكامل التمار "يا كامل اجعلوا لنا رباً نؤوب إليه وقولوا فينا ماشئتم..." ثم قال (ع): " والله ما خرج إليكم من علمنا إلاّ ألف غير معطوفة ".

 

4- وورد في بحار الأنوار للعلامة المجلسي عن مالك الجهني (إن لنا رباً يكلؤنا بالليل والنهار نعبده... قولوا فينا ما شئتم واجعلونا مخلوقين..) ووردت روايات أخرى بهذا المضمون.

http://www.alhodacenter.net/upgrade/index.php?page=details&s=78f09318015c9f2c9ce0715eff88d67e&id=1130

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قل إنما أنا بشر مثلكم يوحى إلي أنما إلهكم إله واحد فمن كان يرجو لقاء ربه فليعمل عملا صالحا ولا يشرك بعبادة ربه أحدا

This is shirk and goes against the Quran.

 

(bismillah)

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَوَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

 

 

 

What everyone is failing to realize is the fact that this statement states: No difference between You and them except that they are Your servants and beings.

Which automatically complies with Tawheed. Read the whole dua and you will understand what is meant by this statement.

Edited by PureEthics

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It might not be shirk, but it sounds like ghuluw, or at least it reduces ghuluw to saying that an Imam is not the servant of Allah, and that everything else is acceptable to say.

 

It is definitely not shirk, without a doubt.

No difference between You and them except that they are Your servants and beings.

لا فَرْقَ بَيْنَكَ وَبَيْنَهَا إلاّ أَنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَخَلْقُكَ،

Edited by PureEthics

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A philosophical question: Why would an infinitely merciful and powerful creator not create the best possible beings?

 

Maybe our understanding of the best possible is not correct?

 

لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ فِي أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ

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A philosophical question: Why would an infinitely merciful and powerful creator not create the best possible beings?

 

Maybe our understanding of the best possible is not correct?

 

Allah can do many things, but I don't think He would contradict Himself, or give out misleading messages. And to me, if you take this statement in the sense that Sayyid Khomeini appears to have taken it, then there are problems with the following verses of the Qur'an:

 

Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect? [6:50]

 

Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe. [7:188]

 

And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement [9:101]

 

Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. [31:34]

 

Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. [46:9]

 

And your companion is not gone mad. And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon. Nor of the unseen is he a tenacious concealer [81:22-24]

 

And they say: Why has not an angel been sent down to him? And had We sent down an angel, the matter would have certainly been decided and then they would not have been respited. And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made confused to them what they make confused. [6:8-9]

 

Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger? And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger? Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger. [17:93-95]

 

Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. [18:110]

 

 

The idea that the Prophet (pbuh) could have had all the powers of Allah completely contradicts the message being sent out by these verses (along with others). Someone with the powers of Allah is not a mortal like us. And why emphasise on the Prophet not knowing some things, or that only Allah knows certain things. I know there are people willing to play all kinds of mental and linguistic gymnastics in order to explain these verses away, but at a certain point I think you need to wonder why so much of the Qur'an needs to be explained away in this fashion.

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^ This is why I said: "Maybe our understanding of the best possible is not correct?"

 

Allah created these beings in a way which best fits creation as a whole. There are good reasons for how they were created. Reflection can help us understand these reasons.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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(salam)

 

Based on the opines above, I wish to interject a little guidance:

 

Beginning of Sura Najm,

 

and also Sura Kahf:82;

 

and Sura XXI: 27

 

And there are other ones, too.

 

(wasalam)

 

Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed, The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him, [53:2-5]

 

And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience." [18:82]

 

And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me. And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants. They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. [21:25-27]

 

I don't really understand what these verses are supposed to show. I don't have a problem with taking the obvious meaning of any of them. The Prophet (pbuh) was guided by Allah, and obviously was told about certain matters of the unseen. That is a long way from knowing everything Allah knows though.

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Oh my dear Brother Haydar. You still seem to be missing the point. No one is implying the prophets and imams are absolute. Neither does the statement. It is very clear, if their was no difference, the statement would have not used servants and beings. Why use servants and beings? Why not one or the other? Why not neither? Why is the dua outright praises the oneness and nearness to Allah? Think about it very clearly. Ponder with each phrase of the dua.

 

 

 

Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect? [6:50]

 

[shakir 3:179] On no account will Allah leave the believers in the condition which you are in until He separates the evil from the good; nor is Allah going to make you acquainted with the unseen, but Allah chooses of His messengers whom He pleases; therefore believe in Allah and His messengers; and if you believe and guard (against evil), then you shall have a great reward.

 

[shakir 72:26] The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any,

[shakir 72:27] Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,

[shakir 72:28] So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

 

Imam Sadiq says in this regard: “When an imam wills to know something, Allah will teach him.” [5]

 

 

 

Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe. [7:188]

 

Unseen here is referring to the day of judgement. Clearly it is only in Allah's hands. I would like to ask you, do you take this verse literal? If so, you believe Muhammad A.S committed sins? It states, "No evil WOULD have touched me". So evil touched him? It cannot be, in my research of the holy quran. Here is is speaking, about the evils that come from man, of which was a trial of Allah.

 

 

 

And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement [9:101]

 

Would you say he did not know them at all, or only when this verse was revealed? Because looking at history he did indeed know his enemies, especially his ahlulbayt's enemies. It is also important to note here:

 

[shakir 3:179] On no account will Allah leave the believers in the condition which you are in until He separates the evil from the good; nor is Allah going to make you acquainted with the unseen, but Allah chooses of His messengers whom He pleases; therefore believe in Allah and His messengers; and if you believe and guard (against evil), then you shall have a great reward.

 

 

 

Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. [31:34]

 

None of these specifics contradict anything. We also know what is in the wombs. We also can predict when it will rain. We even have prayers for rain. If someone is shot, we know when they will die and where. To an extent we do know what we will earn the next day and what land one will die in. Does it invalidate the verse not at all. It isnt that we cannot know, its we dont know, but either by human self awareness (to an extent) or by Allah giving it to us, we can find out. Else are you telling me you reject all the hadiths on Imam Ali's A.S death? Or about Imam Hussain A.S? Or the deaths of were/when the companions of theirs will die? Again, just to reiterate, it is not saying one cannot know such things. But can they know? Yes.

 

 

 

Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

[46:9]And your companion is not gone mad. And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon. Nor of the unseen is he a tenacious concealer [81:22-24]

 

My friend will just answer this one for ya. For all your verses seem to be somewhat similar. No need for repeating myself ^_^

 

Salamun alaykum.

The phrase "And i do not know what will be done with me" refers to the fact that the Holy Prophet does not have the knowledge of unseen independently; rather, he is informed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.This is in line with 7: 188:

قُلْ لا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسي‏ نَفْعاً وَ لا ضَرًّا إِلاَّ ما شاءَ اللَّهُ وَ لَوْ كُنْتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لاَسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَ ما مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَا إِلاَّ نَذيرٌ وَ بَشيرٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُون

"Say," I have no control over any benefit for myself nor] over [any harm except what Allah may wish. Had I known the Unseen, I would have acquired much good, and no ill would have befallen me. I am only a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who have faith."

Such Verses indicate that the Holy Prophet does not have the knowledge of unseen of his own. However, other Verses explicitمly show that he can have access to the knowledge of unseen through Divine revelation such as 12: 102:

ذلِكَ مِنْ أَنْباءِ الْغَيْبِ نُوحيهِ إِلَيْک

"These are accounts of the Unseen which We reveal to you"

and 11: 49:

تِلْكَ مِنْ أَنْباءِ الْغَيْبِ نُوحيها إِلَيْكَ ما كُنْتَ تَعْلَمُها أَنْتَ وَ لا قَوْمُكَ مِنْ قَبْلِ هذا فَاصْبِرْ إِنَّ الْعاقِبَةَ لِلْمُتَّقينَ

"These are accounts of the Unseen which We reveal to you. Neither you nor your people used to know them before this. So be patient. Indeed the outcome will be in favour of the God wary."

and 72: 26-7:

عالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلا يُظْهِرُ عَلى‏ غَيْبِهِ أَحَداًإِلاَّ مَنِ ارْتَضى‏ مِنْ رَسُولٍ فَإِنَّهُ يَسْلُكُ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَ مِنْ خَلْفِهِ رَصَداً

"Knower of the Unseen, He does not disclose His Unseen to anyone,except to an apostle He approves of. Then He dispatches a sentinel before and behind him".

 

 

 

Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger? And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger? Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger. [17:93-95]

 

Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. [18:110]

 

 

Just because he is a mortal, doesnt make it so that he much also bear the trash of mortals. He is the perfect human being ever created. The messenger is nothing like us. As Allah states,

 

[shakir 53:2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;

[shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

[shakir 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,

[shakir 53:5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

[shakir 53:6] The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion,

[shakir 53:7] And he is in the highest part of the horizon.

[shakir 53:8] Then he drew near, then he bowed

[shakir 53:9] So he was the measure of two bows or closer still.

[shakir 53:10] And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

[shakir 53:11] The heart was not untrue in (making him see) what he saw.

 

Verses I to 8 assert the infallibility of the Holy Prophet in his movement between the creator and the creation, similar to the movement of the star in its orbit. He neither deviates nor does or say anything other than what is revealed to him. The degree of his realization and knowledge of all that which has been created is as perfect as the creator, save the finest span between the finite and the infinite.

 

 

 

Someone with the powers of Allah is not a mortal like us.

 

Um, lots of mortals are better than other mortals, does it change the fact that they are like us? No.

 

 

 

And why emphasise on the Prophet not knowing some things, or that only Allah knows certain things.

 

Very simple. Tawhid. So no one can ever cross the line into absoluteness.

 

 

 

I know there are people willing to play all kinds of mental and linguistic gymnastics in order to explain these verses away, but at a certain point I think you need to wonder why so much of the Qur'an needs to be explained away in this fashion.

 

lol play mental gymanstics in order to explain the verses away? There is no need to, the quran itself "explains away" your interpretation. The quran's nature is like this, either people can seek the truth, or be misled by it. The truth is there. You just cannot take verses out of context and look at them specifically. Look at the quran as a whole.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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Like I said, mental gymnastics. I'm not going to bother getting into a prolonged debate about this and ruining the thread. I'm sure people can make their own minds up for themselves based on the quality of evidence used to support the arguments so far.

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