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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Ali Beyond Criticism?

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Alamgir

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No, he is not. 

If Abu Bakar's sincerity and honesty towards Islam can be questioned, then Ali can also be questioned. If Umar or Muawiyah are not holy, then Ali is also not holy. He was 4th khalifah or not, does it matter? Uthman was also 3rd khalifah but it doesn't matter. He was not an angel, or Prophet of Allah. He was not infallible in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.

 

If Abu Bakar or Umar are judged through Surah Munafiqoon, then Ali should also be judged through the same surah.

Being the son in law of the Prophet of Islam is not any guarantee for heaven, the way it is not in case of Uthman. Being the cousin of the Prophet is not a licence to do whatever, as the son of Noah was also a disbeliever.

So let's be fair.

 

Let there be no discrimination among the companions of the Prophet. After all, there's no verse in Quran that clearly says that Ali is forgiven and he's bound to paradise.

 

The purpose of this thread is treating all the companions with justice which is the heart and soul of Islam. No one should object to this, as Islam came for all the humans, it's not the property of 12 or 14 so called infallibles.

 

Point 1

 

My first point is, Allah didn't help Ali in becoming the khalifah, which seems to be the foremost desire of Ali's shias at least. For this khilafah, shias hate and curse Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman, Muawiyah and daughters of Abu Bakar and Umar.

I feel that khilafah was not in the fate of Ali.

You know when Allah wills something, things become easy for it. But we see things became hard for Ali. After the Prophet, Abu Bakar snatched Ali's right (Allah didn't help Ali.), then Umar grabbed it and then Uthman did that. For around 20 years, Allah didn't grant Ali with success. And when Uthman was assassinated, Ali fought for the khilafah, but he still couldn't get it fully. Muawiyah was the biggest obstacle in his way. Ali kept getting weaker day by day and finally he was killed by an ex shia (Ibn Muljim).

 

Now we see that Allah didn't help Ali. Allah made Ali's life very difficult. It clearly shows that khilafah was not for Ali. If it was for him, Allah would have made it easy for him to get along with it.

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By that logic, Allah (SWT) also made the life of the Prophet very difficult, in fact, the Prophet said (roughly), that he suffered the worst out of all the Prophets.

 

 

Secondly, Imam Ali (as) is open to criticism. Please bring forward the actions that you find dubious? Please point out when he ran away from battle for starters, or anything of the sorts.

Conversely, your own Sunni hadith are littered with examples where this Sahaba or that Sahaba did something wrong.

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By that logic, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì also made the life of the Prophet very difficult, in fact, the Prophet said (roughly), that he suffered the worst out of all the Prophets.

 

 

Secondly, Imam Ali (as) is open to criticism. Please bring forward the actions that you find dubious? Please point out when he ran away from battle for starters, or anything of the sorts.

Conversely, your own Sunni hadith are littered with examples where this Sahaba or that Sahaba did something wrong.

 

Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s is the most successful man on earth. He was born as an orphan child. His mother died in the early childhood. Still he was not dependent on people. In his childhood he used to work as a shepherd to make his living. He was not dependent on any uncle. Then he grew up poor, but Allah held his hand and married him to Khadijah a.s.w.s and so Allah granted the Prophet with wealth and health. The journey of success continued, he was chosen as the Prophet of Allah. He wasn't leading Quraish in anyway, but Allah made him the leader of Hijaz and the rest by the time he died. He fought wars with the enemies of Islam and got success. He didn't have any rivals in his way who usurped his right. No one beat his wife in front of him. No one killed his son as your Imam's son Mohsin was killed in his presence. The Prophet a.s.w.s established justice in his state / empire. He brought all the criminals to justice, unlike Ali who didn't give justice to daughter of the Prophet by not bring the murderer of her son Mohsin to justice. The Prophet was not killed by an ex-companion, the way Ali was killed by an ex shia (Ibn Muljim).

 

So you see, that my Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s is the most successful man on earth, his people spread his word in the whole world, his people stretched the boundaries of his state of Madinah from Africa till Europe. 

 

Hadiths are not going to work in case of Ali. Hadiths can be made up, manipulated. After All Bukhari or Koleni were not infallible or angels. The reporters of those hadiths were also not infallible. We may also apply Surah Munafiqoon on Bukhari, Koleni, and all the reporters of hadiths. Therefore, let's just focus on Quran which is the only thing unanimous between the shias and sunnis, even the other sects of Islam.

 

* Please note that I cannot respond frequently in this thread until 26th September, as I am allotted a quota of limited posts per day as I'm a basic member. So please be patient for my response here. Thanks.

Edited by Alamgir
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If Abu Bakar or Umar are judged through Surah Munafiqoon, then Ali should also be judged through the same surah.

Being the son in law of the Prophet of Islam is not any guarantee for heaven, the way it is not in case of Uthman. Being the cousin of the Prophet is not a licence to do whatever, as the son of Noah was also a disbeliever.

So let's be fair.

Can you name me just one sin that Imam Ali (as) committed?

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Personally I believe that Imam Ali (a.s.) is not open to criticism. I may be new to all of this but I know my fair share in Islamic history and Inshallah it is growing. When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) passed away he left behind two things; the Quran and the Ahlulbayt. The Quran is a segment all Muslims follow where as the Ahlulbayt is something not all Muslims seem to keen about. The Ahlulbayt consists of Imam Ali (and other individuals) and there is a hadith that states that one day the Prophet (p.b.u.h) lifted up Ali's hand and said 'Ali is the mawla, of whom I am mawla'. The Prophet himself said that if you believe in him then you must believe in Ali. Jihaad is hating people who hate the family of the prophet-so if you hate Ali then you are hating on the Prophet. I understand that Ali is not an angel or a prophet however he is part of the 'panchtan paak' and after the Prophets death continued to deliever the message of Islam. Sunni's believe in the Sunnah very much so is it not then Sunnah to love Ali?

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No, he is not. 

If Abu Bakar's sincerity and honesty towards Islam can be questioned, then Ali can also be questioned. If Umar or Muawiyah are not holy, then Ali is also not holy. He was 4th khalifah or not, does it matter? Uthman was also 3rd khalifah but it doesn't matter. He was not an angel, or Prophet of Allah. He was not infallible in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.

 

If Abu Bakar or Umar are judged through Surah Munafiqoon, then Ali should also be judged through the same surah.

Being the son in law of the Prophet of Islam is not any guarantee for heaven, the way it is not in case of Uthman. Being the cousin of the Prophet is not a licence to do whatever, as the son of Noah was also a disbeliever.

So let's be fair.

 

Let there be no discrimination among the companions of the Prophet. After all, there's no verse in Quran that clearly says that Ali is forgiven and he's bound to paradise.

 

The purpose of this thread is treating all the companions with justice which is the heart and soul of Islam. No one should object to this, as Islam came for all the humans, it's not the property of 12 or 14 so called infallibles.

 

Point 1

 

My first point is, Allah didn't help Ali in becoming the khalifah, which seems to be the foremost desire of Ali's shias at least. For this khilafah, shias hate and curse Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman, Muawiyah and daughters of Abu Bakar and Umar.

I feel that khilafah was not in the fate of Ali.

You know when Allah wills something, things become easy for it. But we see things became hard for Ali. After the Prophet, Abu Bakar snatched Ali's right (Allah didn't help Ali.), then Umar grabbed it and then Uthman did that. For around 20 years, Allah didn't grant Ali with success. And when Uthman was assassinated, Ali fought for the khilafah, but he still couldn't get it fully. Muawiyah was the biggest obstacle in his way. Ali kept getting weaker day by day and finally he was killed by an ex shia (Ibn Muljim).

 

Now we see that Allah didn't help Ali. Allah made Ali's life very difficult. It clearly shows that khilafah was not for Ali. If it was for him, Allah would have made it easy for him to get along with it.

 

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

You are correct in saying that if you are related (wife, brother, uncle, son, daughter, son in law, father in law etc). to any Prophet of Allah, this fact alone can’t guarantee anything.

 

To properly understand your thought process:

 

(1) Do you believe in Complete Predestination or Partial Predestination?

 

(2) Do you believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbupahp) is infallible (no sin, error or mistake)?

 

(3) Define what Qur'an mean by Unjust in (Surah al Baqarah, 11:124)?

 

(4) Are Angels superior to Humans? (Yes/No)

 

(5) Does Allah appoints the Khalifa or the Ummah?

 

(6) If your answer to Q5 is Ummah, by which method?

 

(7) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were not Kafir before Islam?

 

(8) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were included in the following verses

 

(8a) (Surah al-Ahzab, 33:33)

 

(8b) (Surah al-Ma'ida, 5:55)

 

(8c)  (Surah aal- Imran  3:61)

 

(9) In (Surah al-Maida 5:67) Allah said that he will protect the Prophet from man, was the threat form non muslims or muslims? and what was the message that would have put the life of the Prophet(pbuhahp) in danger?

 

(10) Which one of the Four Ruler were the most  knowledgeable in Islam? and can you provide their books, or what non muslims say about them? 

 

(wasalam) 

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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We know Allah made it hard for Ali to be Khalifah. But in those terms shouldn't the Prophet have his title stripped away? I mean the Prophets life was very hard-with non-believers constantly attacking him to having watched many of his companions die. Yet this doesn't mean that the Prophet shouldn't have been the Prophet. If Allah made everything easier than I would've been the king of idk timbaktu now. However Alamgir you are forgetting many of the things that Allah has aided him with-just like Allah provided the Prophet with the night journey, Ali was gifted with Dhulfiqar which won him many, many battles. Ali was given the title of 'the Lion of Allah' and even lifted up the world in one occasion? If this isn't Khalifah worthy then what is my friend?

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In the name of Allah. Salam.

 

"Point" 1 sounds like Jabria, Murjia and Qadariyya mix of beliefs to me, with the name of Quranism. Dear brother, before anything, I suggest you refrain from suppositions and deductions over what you studied and especially over what you heard. Because in order to judge on something, both parties should be listened to, right? So, it is a bit odd to me, in the thread you both ask questions and answer them yourself. Let's hear about the other side of the story. On what things your brethren agree with you and on what things they disagree. And let us study things together inshaAllah so that we see things more clear. I hope you accompany us in this and that slowly yet steadily study the references we provide for you.

 

 

Is Ali Beyond Criticism? No, he is not. If Abu Bakar's sincerity and honesty towards Islam can be questioned, then Ali can also be questioned.

 

Imam Ali, just like anyone is not beyond of questioning and criticism. But, the question here is if we know him and his beliefs? Whether or not are we aware of his faith, preachings and doings? Like, did we read his sermons in Nahj al-Balagha or any quotes from him in other hadith books, such as in Tuhaf al-Uqoul, so that we learn about his beliefs and preachings? Did we study his life in shia islamic sources? If we did not, then the criticism we make would probably be based on supposition and not out of study. Don't you agree?

 

 

If Umar or Muawiyah are not holy, then Ali is also not holy.

 

Why? Because you think they are equal? Because as per sunni understanding, all believers who saw the Prophet were companions? And,

 

 

Let there be no discrimination among the companions of the Prophet.

 

Now, since, you said, you accept the Holy Quran which sunni, shia, sufi, etc. all Muslims believe in, as the ultimate truth, then please, study these verses:

 

Quran, 57:10; "..Not equal among you are those who spent (freely) and fought, before the Conquest (of Meccah), (with those who did so later). Those are higher in rank than those who spent (freely) and fought afterwards.."

 

As you can see, God himself makes discrimination among the companions of the Prophet. And divine justice requires this.

 

So, the supposition that they were all companions, thus they are at the same level, is false. When even there are differences among the Divinely Chosen and Appointed Prophets, it would be absurd if there wqeren't any difference between companions who were not that great. Please see:

 

Quran, 17:55; "And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to David We gave a scripture."
 
Quran, 2:253; "We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom God spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Jesus son of Mary, and strengthened him with the holy spirit.."
 
As you can see, there are even differences of ranks among divinely chosen Prophets. Thus, it would be illogical to claim there were no difference in ranks between the companions. And especially Quran 57:10 mentions it clearly, that the companions who emraced and strived for Islam before the conquest and those who did it after the conquest are not the same. The former group is higher in rank than the latter.
 
Secondly, any believer who saw the Prophet does not mean they were companions. Please see this hadith in sunni sources, which sunni brethren quote PARTLY in order to silence their shia brethren from criticism (the criticism of shia muslims in hope to find the truth so that whose example is to take and whose not to take) :
 
"Khalid, leave my companions alone. By God, should you have a piece of gold the size of Uhud Mountain, and you spend it in the path of God, your charity would not compare to a morning or evening trip in defense of Islam by any one of my companions."
 
Sunni brethren share some quoted parts in other hadith books whereas the whole narration is this. And, as you can see, the Prophet adresses Khalid bin Walid when he abuses the companion of the Prophet, Abdurrahman bin Awf who objected Khalid's grave sin when he led a muslim battalion and massacred an innocent tribe. However, sunnis accept Khalid as one of the prominent companions, and even as "sword of God", which is not true as per the hadith above. Thus, not every believer who saw the Prophet had the status of companionship.
 
And even then, not every companion had the same status (Quran, 57:10).
 
And not only that, even the true companions were not immune to deviation and even apostasy. The fact that some did become apostates in the time of Prophet and some were prophecied by the Prophet (in both sunni and shia sources) to do it later can suffice, I suppose. Because just like any of believers, you also agree on uninanimous sources of sunni, shia, sufi Muslims.
 
And Quran also confirms the abovementioned fact. See: 48:29 for instance. The verse which describes companions of the Prophet as "being merciful/compassionate amongst one another.. hard and steadfast against disbelievers.." And, as any rational person would agree that, because the companions of Prophet fought against each other, one or both sides in those fights should not be considered as an example companion to us any more. Because, fighting against each other is the opposite of being compassionate towards each other which the verse mentions as an absolute attribute of companionship.
 
Lastly, the companionship is pretty much exaggerated when sunni hadiths praise the believers in the end of time more than the companions. Please see: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235022746-momins-during-the-end-of-times/?p=2704678
 

Being the son in law of the Prophet of Islam is not any guarantee for heaven, the way it is not in case of Uthman. Being the cousin of the Prophet is not a licence to do whatever, as the son of Noah was also a disbeliever. So let's be fair.

 

Interesting brother. It is clear you did not study even the sunni version of history. Because Uthman is twice son in law of the Prophet. However, I agree, being a relative of the Prophet doesn't mean they are guaranteed to believe and see the fruits of belief. However. the fact that we believe Ali was the commander of the believers is not out of his being relative to the Prophet. On the contrary, the Prophet had other relatives much. But his relation and preference of Ahlulbayt (Lady Fatemeh, Imam Ali, Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain) was not out of blood relation. And even Lady Aisha admits this fact in sunni sources;

 

"Who was the most beloved to the Holy Prophet (SAW)?” Aisha replied, “Fatimah.” “And who from among the men?” she was asked again. She replied, “Her husband. As far as I know he fasts a great deal and he often stays awake at length during nights in order to worship God."

 

As you already know, the Prophet had other relatives too. But, the reason of the submission of Muslims to Ahlulbayt is because these specific ones were loved by the Prophet most. And the Prophet does not love and prefer someone other than for God and religion.

 

 

After all, there's no verse in Quran that clearly says that Ali is forgiven and he's bound to paradise.

 

Please see, Quran, 33:33

 

"..God only desires to keep away the rijs (uncleanness, sin) from you, O Ahlulbayt! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying."

 

As you can see, according to Holy Quran, he is infallible as well as the other members of Ahlulbayt.

 

I need to go now. But inshaAllah, brothers here will explain the issues more clearly. And I hope they will also adress the point I of yours, explaining why the beliefs of Qadariyya (fatalism), Murjia and Jabriya is faulty. Thanks. ma salam

Edited by HamzaTR
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No, he is not. 

If Abu Bakar's sincerity and honesty towards Islam can be questioned, then Ali can also be questioned. If Umar or Muawiyah are not holy, then Ali is also not holy. He was 4th khalifah or not, does it matter? Uthman was also 3rd khalifah but it doesn't matter. He was not an angel, or Prophet of Allah. He was not infallible in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.

 

 

Interesting…..Anyway, you have completely have ignored the Holy Quran with regards to Imam Ali merits, Allah swt has praised Mola Ali on numerous occasion!! Where on the other hand, the companions that you think  so highly of, have been critisied  in the Quran!! So from Quranic perspective Mola Ali integrity is from more superior than any of those companion that you have mentioned. Therefore, i would suggest to you go back to your drawing board and bring something worth debating about?

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I believe the brother is sincere yet confused. It would be better if brethren please, kindly and rationally explained the mistakes in the three abovementioned beliefs.

 

 

His tendencies speaks volumes!

Edited by power
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Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with them all) & many more are open to takfir & insults but Ali (ra)  is beyond criticism in any way... subhanAllah! Shows the filth & hypocrisy of shi'ism.

 

May Allah swt give protection from adopting such faith.

Edited by Invoker
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If Abu Bakar or Umar are judged through Surah Munafiqoon, then Ali should also be judged through the same surah.

(bismillah)

Many verses of Holy Qur'an about the virtues of Imam Ali (A.S):

 

إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ الَّذينَ آمَنُوا الَّذينَ يُقيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَ يُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَ هُمْ راكِعُونَ 55/ المائده

Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.

 

يا أَيُّهَا الَّذينَ آمَنُوا أَطيعُوا اللَّهَ وَ أَطيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنازَعْتُمْ في‏ شَيْ‏ءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَ الرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَ الْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَ أَحْسَنُ تَأْويلاً59/ النساء

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you.

 

الَّذينَ يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوالَهُمْ بِاللَّيْلِ وَ النَّهارِ سِرًّا وَ عَلانِيَةً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ وَ لا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ لا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ 274/ البقره

Those who give their wealth by night and day, secretly and openly, they shall have their reward near their Lord, and they will have no fear, nor will they grieve.

 

وَ مِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَشْري نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغاءَ مَرْضاتِ اللَّهِ وَ اللَّهُ رَؤُفٌ بِالْعِبادِ 207/ البقره

And among the people is he who sells his soul seeking the pleasure of Allah, and Allah is most kind to] His [servants.

 

إِنَّ الَّذينَ آمَنُوا وَ عَمِلُوا الصَّالِحاتِ أُولئِكَ هُمْ خَيْرُ الْبَرِيَّةِ 7/ البيّنة

Indeed those who have faith and do righteous deeds it is they who are the best of creatures.

 

and...

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Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with them all) & many more are open to takfir & insults but Ali (ra)  is beyond criticism in any way... subhanAllah! Shows the filth & hypocrisy of shi'ism.

 

May Allah swt give protection from adopting such faith.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Book of Traditions are open for scrutiny, The Book Quran and the living Quran need to be studied, understood and followed.

 

"Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger and those who believe, establish prayers and pay the zakat while they are bowing in prayer." (Surah al-Ma'ida, 5:55)

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/quran-and-ahlul-bayt

 

(wasalam)

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Book of Traditions are open for scrutiny, The Book Quran and the living Quran need to be studied, understood and followed.

 

"Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger and those who believe, establish prayers and pay the zakat while they are bowing in prayer." (Surah al-Ma'ida, 5:55)

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/quran-and-ahlul-bayt

 

(wasalam)

 

 

 

 

 

"If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Muhammad and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."   (At-Tawbah 9:40)

 

 

 

Now i repeat ur words

 

 

 Quran need to be studied, understood and followed.
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"If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Muhammad and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."   (At-Tawbah 9:40)

 

 

 

Now i repeat ur words

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

And among men there is one who sells his life to win the pleasure of Allah. Allah is very kind to His devotees. (Chapter 2; verse 207)

 

Read your Tafsir of the above Verse, and then determine, I should answer what you have asked.

 

(wasalam)

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Now we see that Allah didn't help Ali. Allah made Ali's life very difficult. It clearly shows that khilafah was not for Ali. If it was for him, Allah would have made it easy for him to get along with it.

Nonsense : This is typical nonsense spouted by the slave class. You assume, that if one cannot or did not achieve a certain goal, therefore it was not meant to be?. There are always more tyrants in power, how did they come into power?. They cohort together in order to achieve a similar goal. Ali was already the successor chosen by Allah, so why would Allah give him power of a man made king ship?. It was the peoples choice to distinguish between good and evil. Just like, you, make a choice in your daily life.

 

 

So you see, that my Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s is the most successful man on earth, his people spread his word in the whole world, his people stretched the boundaries of his state of Madinah from Africa till Europe.

OUR Prophet, not yours or mine. I do not recall you or your group, have any authority over the Holy Prophet? or unless you assume you own him?.

 

 

 

Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with them all) & many more are open to takfir & insults but Ali (ra)  is beyond criticism in any way... subhanAllah! Shows the filth & hypocrisy of shi'ism.

 

May Allah swt give protection from adopting such faith.

Well, as posts were mentioned, bring some against him?. Criticism is normally the advent of failed characters. Ali ibn abi talib, could not take the man made king ship as the status qua went against him. Plenty of evidence, search for your self.

 

 

 

and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us."

This is very simple and you answered it your self. Here, there is a plural address, but the important point is Allah is with us. However during this same period Ali ibn abi talib was on the Prophets bed ALONE, with enemies on the death warrant. So who is superior?, those who are addressed of protection, or the one that isn't, but is already protected?.

 

The weakness here is, The Prophet consoling Abu bakr of not being afraid, and was there any one consoling Ali, while he faced death?, because he understood the greater goal of the Prophet.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

And among men there is one who sells his life to win the pleasure of Allah. Allah is very kind to His devotees. (Chapter 2; verse 207)

 

Read your Tafsir of the above Verse, and then determine, I should answer what you have asked.

 

(wasalam)

 

 

 

Sure why not:

 

 

Ibn `Abbas, Anas, Sa`id bin Musayyib, Abu `Uthman An-Nahdi, `Ikrimah and several other scholars said that this Ayah was revealed about Suhayb bin Sinan Ar-Rumi. When Suhayb became a Muslim in Makkah and intended to migrate (to Al-Madinah), the people (Quraysh) prevented him from migrating with his money. They said that if he forfeits his property, he is free to migrate. He abandoned his money and preferred to migrate, and Allah revealed this Ayah about him. `Umar bin Khattab and several other Companions met Suhayb close to the outskirts of Al-Madinah at Al-Harrah (flat lands with black stones). They said to him, "The trade has indeed been successful.'' He answered them, "You too, may Allah never allow your trade to fail. What is the matter'' `Umar told him that Allah has revealed this Ayah (2:207) about him. It was also reported that Allah's Messenger said, "The trade has been successful, O Suhayb!''     (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

 

 

 

Tabatabai & Nasr hussain syed quote the merit of Sayyidna Ali ra in their tafseer. 

 

 

We do not insult or degrade Sayyidna Ali ra in any way. Its YOU who do lanah on the sahabas so dont question our respect for ur 1st imam. Sayydina Abu Bakr ra risked his life by joining Mohammad for migration to Madina. Have some shame before questioning his faith.

 

Well, as posts were mentioned, bring some against him?. Criticism is normally the advent of failed characters. Ali ibn abi talib, could not take the man made king ship as the status qua went against him. Plenty of evidence, search for your self.

 

 

Too lazy to bring the evidence & debate?

 

 

 

This is very simple and you answered it your self. Here, there is a plural address, but the important point is Allah is with us. However during this same period Ali ibn abi talib was on the Prophets bed ALONE, with enemies on the death warrant. So who is superior?, those who are addressed of protection, or the one that isn't, but is already protected?.

 

 

You have no understanding of simple english do u? The Prophet (saw) was telling Abu Bakr that "Allah is with us" In "us" come two people The Prophet himself & Abu Bakr ra.   

 

 

So who is superior?, those who are addressed of protection, or the one that isn't, but is already protected?.

 

 

Sayyidna Abu Bakr ra is superior to Sayyidna Ali ra. The kuffar didnt want to kill Ali rather their target was the Holy Prophet. 

 

 

The weakness here is, The Prophet consoling Abu bakr of not being afraid, and was there any one consoling Ali, while he faced death?, because he understood the greater goal of the Prophet.

 

 

Both faced death. Can u even imagine travelling in the Arabian desert on foot? even for the sake of fun?

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It's quite baffling, how Sunnis really believe that: being afraid (Abu Bakr in the cave) Constitutes an act of bravery! For Gods sake he was with Rasulullah whom Allah swt had protected from the day he was born! I just wonder what would had happened, if the enemies had found Rasulullah in the cave with Abu Bakr? Would Abu Bakr fought like a warrior or would he done another runner…...

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Sure why not:

Ibn `Abbas, Anas, Sa`id bin Musayyib, Abu `Uthman An-Nahdi, `Ikrimah and several other scholars said that this Ayah was revealed about Suhayb bin Sinan Ar-Rumi. When Suhayb became a Muslim in Makkah and intended to migrate (to Al-Madinah), the people (Quraysh) prevented him from migrating with his money. They said that if he forfeits his property, he is free to migrate. He abandoned his money and preferred to migrate, and Allah revealed this Ayah about him. `Umar bin Khattab and several other Companions met Suhayb close to the outskirts of Al-Madinah at Al-Harrah (flat lands with black stones). They said to him, "The trade has indeed been successful.'' He answered them, "You too, may Allah never allow your trade to fail. What is the matter'' `Umar told him that Allah has revealed this Ayah (2:207) about him. It was also reported that Allah's Messenger said, "The trade has been successful, O Suhayb!'' (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

Tabatabai & Nasr hussain syed quote the merit of Sayyidna Ali ra in their tafseer.

We do not insult or degrade Sayyidna Ali ra in any way. Its YOU who do lanah on the sahabas so dont question our respect for ur 1st imam. Sayydina Abu Bakr ra risked his life by joining Mohammad for migration to Madina. Have some shame before questioning his faith.

Ahsant akhi ahsant

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Being the son in law of the Prophet of Islam is not any guarantee for heaven, the way it is not in case of Uthman. Being the cousin of the Prophet is not a licence to do whatever, as the son of Noah was also a disbeliever.

So let's be fair.

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Prophet Muhammad [saws] said:

 

"O Ali, you are my brother, representative, caliphate and safeguard for my Ummah & the leader after me. Your place [status] in this lifetime & after my death is like that of Harun [عليه السلام] was to his brother Musa [عليه السلام]. But, there is no Prophet after [with] me. He who dies with your love, Allah [عزوجل] has sealed his his Iman [faith] and provided him with safety, and he dies hating you will not have a Naseeb [receive/share] in Islam [this religion]."
 
Amali al-Tusi, Majlis 26, Sunday, Pg.416, H.3/1167, Print:1431, Qum, 1st Edition.
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Prophet Muhammad [saws] said:

"O Ali, you are my brother, representative, caliphate and safeguard for my Ummah & the leader after me. Your place [status] in this lifetime & after my death is like that of Harun [عليه السلام] was to his brother Musa [عليه السلام]. But, there is no Prophet after [with] me. He who dies with your love, Allah [عزوجل] has sealed his his Iman [faith] and provided him with safety, and he dies hating you will not have a Naseeb [receive/share] in Islam [this religion]."

Amali al-Tusi, Majlis 26, Sunday, Pg.416, H.3/1167, Print:1431, Qum, 1st Edition.

Using a Shia reference to prove a Sunni wrong? Edited by Wisdom007
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It's quite baffling, how Sunnis really believe that: being afraid (Abu Bakr in the cave) Constitutes an act of bravery! For Gods sake he was with Rasulullah whom Allah swt had protected from the day he was born! I just wonder what would had happened, if the enemies had found Rasulullah in the cave with Abu Bakr? Would Abu Bakr fought like a warrior or would he done another runner…...

 

 

What even more baffling is that ur 12th imam has been in a cave for more a thousand years & God knows when he is going to come out as ur saviour. 

 

 

I wonder whats keeping him from coming outside as millions of his followers chant "Al ajal ya imam" daily, but still.... 

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Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with them all) & many more are open to takfir & insults but Ali (ra)  is beyond criticism in any way... subhanAllah! Shows the filth & hypocrisy of shi'ism.

 

May Allah swt give protection from adopting such faith.

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

In one narration, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Imam of the Hanbali school of thought, narrates from ‘Umar ibn Maymun:

We were sitting with Ibn Abbas. A group of nine people came.

These people told Ibn Abbas, “We would like to discuss a confidential matter– either you tell these people to leave so that only you and us remain, or you come with us and we will go somewhere and discuss it.”Ibn Abbas went with them, afterwards returned, angry at those nine people who disparaged Imam Ali (A.S). This narrator says that after his return, Ibn Abbas described the position of Imam Ali (A.S) according to the Prophet. Ibn Abbas mentioned the conquest of Khaybar by Ali (A.S) and the announcement of the revelation of the Chapter al-Tawbah (The Repentance) to the polytheists by Imam Ali (A.S). Then he mentioned another event, in which the Prophet addressed his cousins and asked, “Who among you is prepared to believe in me and follow me in this world and the hereafter?” All the cousins of the Prophet refused to give a positive response; there was only one positive answer, and that was from Imam Ali (A.S). This question was repeated once more in the same session and again no one said “Yes "except Imam Ali (A.S). The Prophet asked them one last time, “Who is prepared to follow me and to believe in me?” and again only Imam Ali (A.S) gave a positive response. Finally, the Prophet said, addressing Imam Ali (A.S) that, “You are my wali (guardian/successor) in this world and the hereafter.” Then Ibn Abbas said that Imam Ali (A.S) was the first person to embrace Islam. He mentioned all these merits of Imam Ali (A.S) because he was angered with their spitefulness of the Imam. (Musnad of Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad of Bani Hashim, Int. serial no. 2903)

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_twelver says:

 

Can you name me just one sin that Imam Ali committed?

 

I say: I’m not calling them sins, because that would be quite offensive for you. I should call them mistakes, blunders or something. I have already featured a few in the first two posts.

 

Ahlulbayt_110, we are focusing on Quran first.

 

S.M.H.A:

(1) Do you believe in Complete Predestination or Partial Predestination?

 

 

If I believe in complete predestination, then the failures, hardships suffered by Ali were already written by Allah. The obstacles in Ali’s way towards khilafah were signs to him from Allah that he should have been stopped, but he didn’t. He continued in the pursuit of khilafah, fought wars with Muslims using his own justifications.

 

And if I believe in ‘partial predestination’ then Ali was not capable to hold the office of a khalifah or he was not able to be an army general, that’s why he lost everything gradually. Even after his murder, his partisans gave hope and accepted the hegemony of Muawiyah in the Islamic World.

 

 

 

(2) Do you believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbupahp) is infallible (no sin, error or mistake)?

 

Actually my beliefs don’t matter at all in this discussion. We should follow what Quran has to say. It says that Adam sinned, Musa killed a man, other prophets made mistakes. 

 

We follow what’s clearly written, we don’t follow what a Maulana or Ayatullah has to comment on it.

 

(3) Define what Qur'an mean by Unjust in  (Surah al Baqarah, 11:124)?

 

 

 

I don’t know what you mean by the verse 11:124; there’s no 11:124 in Quran. And if you’re talking about Al Baqarah then it’s the chapter 2 and not 11. However if you’re talking about the 11th verse of Al Baqarah, here’s it is:

 

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ 

(2:11 )

 

Now this is upto the reader who they apply this verse on; Muawiyah or Ali or both. One thing is clear, that it was fasaad when they 3rd Caliph was killed. Now those who spread the fasaad (mischief) were those who became the partisans of Ali as they swore his allegiance or appointed him as their khalifah.

Partisans of Ali would call Muawiyah as the one who spread fasaad. Though Muawiyah didn’t take sides with those who rebelled against the Islamic khilafah.

But if you call it Jihad, what killed the 3rd khalifah Uthman, then the one who supported this Jihad against the 3rd khalifah was Ali. And if it’s true, then actually Ali conspired against the khalifah Uthman by inviting rebels from elsewhere into Madinah. So Ali was the chief of rebellion in this case. And then Ali will be questioned again. Why didn’t he raise such a rebellion when Abu Bakar and Umar usurped his right? Ok not his right, because Ali doesn’t want anything for himself. (The way he let Fadak go, and nobody cared what Fadak was?) But Ali didn’t do justice with people. People lived under three hypocrites (3 caliphs) who didn’t establish the shariah, Ali didn’t fulfill his duty. Prophet Muhammad didn’t let Abu Jahl rule the people of Madinah once he established the Islamic State. And when Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s was not able to establish the deen in Makkah he simply emigrated to a place where he was able to do it. But Ali didn’t emigrate to Kufah at the times of Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman. He didn’t establish his shia state outside Madinah. He didn’t walk on the blessed footsteps of the Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s.

So there he didn’t do justice with people who had to live under the 3 hypocrites..

 

 

 

(4) Are Angels superior to Humans? (Yes/No)

 

I’m not interested to know this. But if it has anything to do with this discussion, I’ll seek help from Quran.

 

 

(5) Does Allah appoints the Khalifa or the Ummah?

 

Allah appoints the caliphs for the Ummah or not, Allah didn’t say in Quran that He s.w.t appointed Ali as the caliph.

Let’s say the appointments of caliphs are from Allah then who is your caliph today? Imam Khamenai? Where is your proof?

If it’s Imam Mahdi, then where’s he? He’s in ghaybah then why are you here? Why don’t you go away from this world into ghaybah with him? If caliphs are to be living in ghaybah away from their people, then why any Ali? What’s the use of Jamal and Siffeen? When Ali was already appointed by Allah, then why Ali killed Muslims to prove he was the khalifah and he was to be sworn the allegiance?

 

 

(6) If your answer to Q5 is Ummah, by which method?

 

What method you used to chose your Imam Khomeni and then Imam Khamenai?

 

 

(7) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were not Kafir before Islam?

 

All were kafirs before Islam including Ali. He embraced Islam as the adopted son of the Prophet. He was living in the house of Prophet, taking his share from the domestic resources. It was not something brilliant to embrace Islam. He was dependent on the Prophet, Prophet invited his household to Islam, would Ali say no to his benefactor? Please don’t take offence, if you didn’t like the word ‘kafir’ for Ali, I said all the four were kafirs before Islam, not just Ali.

 

(8) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were included in the following verses (8a) (Surah al-Ahzab, 33:33)

 

I would refer to only 33:33. Only the mothers of believers are included in 33:33. In order to include Ali, you have to bring a hadith which is out of scope of this discussion so far.

 

Ahlulbayt_110 again says:

 

I mean the Prophets life was very hard-with non-believers constantly attacking him to having watched many of his companions die. Yet this doesn't mean that the Prophet shouldn't have been the Prophet. If Allah made everything easier than I would've been the king of idk timbaktu now. However Alamgir you are forgetting many of the things that Allah has aided him with-just like Allah provided the Prophet with the night journey, Ali was gifted with Dhulfiqar which won him many, many battles. Ali was given the title of 'the Lion of Allah' and even lifted up the world in one occasion? If this isn't Khalifah worthy then what is my friend?

 

Prophet’s life was hard but he didn’t fail, I’ve already mentioned it in the above post. Allah made things easy for the Prophet, but Allah made things difficult for Ali, Ali still went against the nature and that’s why he couldn’t succeed.

If Ali won battles with Dhulfiqar then it was not an achievement of Ali but of a sword called Dhulfiqar. Unfortunately this sword didn’t help Ali when it comes to facing Muawiyah.

And I don’t see Quran calls Ali a lion of Allah, no hadiths at the moment please. First get the picture to be clear in the light of Quran alone. Hadiths are not infallible, they were reported by people who were not infallible.

 

HamzaTR says:

But, the question here is if we know him and his beliefs? Whether or not are we aware of his faith, preachings and doings? Like, did we read his sermons in Nahj al-Balagha or any quotes from him in other hadith books, such as in Tuhaf al-Uqoul, so that we learn about his beliefs and preachings? Did we study his life in shia islamic sources? If we did not, then the criticism we make would probably be based on supposition and not out of study. Don't you agree?

 

Dear bro, first let the Quran speak and then we will move on to other human reserouces.

 

 

Now, since, you said, you accept the Holy Quran which sunni, shia, sufi, etc. all Muslims believe in, as the ultimate truth, then please, study these verses: (8a) (Surah al-Ahzab, 33:33)

 

I would refer to only 33:33. Only the mothers of believers are included in 33:33. In order to include Ali, you have to bring a hadith which is out of scope of this discussion so far.

 

Quran, 57:10; "..Not equal among you are those who spent (freely) and fought, before the Conquest (of Meccah), (with those who did so later). Those are higher in rank than those who spent (freely) and fought afterwards.."

 

As you can see, God himself makes discrimination among the companions of the Prophet. And divine justice requires this.

 

So, the supposition that they were all companions, thus they are at the same level, is false.

 

 

 

It doesn’t discriminate Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Muawiyah. They all qualify this verse.

 

Power says:

 

nteresting…..Anyway, you have completely have ignored the Holy Quran with regards to Imam Ali merits, Allah swt has praised Mola Ali on numerous occasion!! Where on the other hand, the companions that you think  so highly of, have been critisied  in the Quran!! So from Quranic perspective Mola Ali integrity is from more superior than any of those companion that you have mentioned. Therefore, i would suggest to you go back to your drawing board and bring something worth debating about?

 

No verse of Quran uses the name of Ali, it’s only that you ‘have to’ interpret verses of Quran using fallible hadiths that were reported by fallible humans.

 

Important

 

I would request everyone to please stick to Quran alone until we make a clear picture on this issue. Thanks.

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U copy paste this hadith very often... Quote me the correct reference so we can have a look at the narration

 

 

 

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

In one narration, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Imam of the Hanbali school of thought, narrates from ‘Umar ibn Maymun:

We were sitting with Ibn Abbas. A group of nine people came.

These people told Ibn Abbas, “We would like to discuss a confidential matter– either you tell these people to leave so that only you and us remain, or you come with us and we will go somewhere and discuss it.”Ibn Abbas went with them, afterwards returned, angry at those nine people who disparaged Imam Ali (A.S). This narrator says that after his return, Ibn Abbas described the position of Imam Ali (A.S) according to the Prophet. Ibn Abbas mentioned the conquest of Khaybar by Ali (A.S) and the announcement of the revelation of the Chapter al-Tawbah (The Repentance) to the polytheists by Imam Ali (A.S). Then he mentioned another event, in which the Prophet addressed his cousins and asked, “Who among you is prepared to believe in me and follow me in this world and the hereafter?” All the cousins of the Prophet refused to give a positive response; there was only one positive answer, and that was from Imam Ali (A.S). This question was repeated once more in the same session and again no one said “Yes "except Imam Ali (A.S). The Prophet asked them one last time, “Who is prepared to follow me and to believe in me?” and again only Imam Ali (A.S) gave a positive response. Finally, the Prophet said, addressing Imam Ali (A.S) that, “You are my wali (guardian/successor) in this world and the hereafter.” Then Ibn Abbas said that Imam Ali (A.S) was the first person to embrace Islam. He mentioned all these merits of Imam Ali (A.S) because he was angered with their spitefulness of the Imam. (Musnad of Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad of Bani Hashim, Int. serial no. 2903)

 

 

 

That precedes the event of ghadeer do u know that? According to the shi'ites Ali was named successor at the event of ghadir. But u took the opportunity to bring us a narration that shows Ali was chosen even before Ghadir Khumm. Well done!

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It's quite baffling, how Sunnis really believe that: being afraid (Abu Bakr in the cave) Constitutes an act of bravery! For Gods sake he was with Rasulullah whom Allah swt had protected from the day he was born! I just wonder what would had happened, if the enemies had found Rasulullah in the cave with Abu Bakr? Would Abu Bakr fought like a warrior or would he done another runner…...

Ahh come on you should have thought this one through...remind me why did the 12th imam go into hiding :rolleyes:

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No, he is not. 

If Abu Bakar's sincerity and honesty towards Islam can be questioned, then Ali can also be questioned. If Umar or Muawiyah are not holy, then Ali is also not holy. He was 4th khalifah or not, does it matter? Uthman was also 3rd khalifah but it doesn't matter. He was not an angel, or Prophet of Allah. He was not infallible in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The Prophet said, “Every prophet has an executor and inheritor, and my executor and inheritor is ALI.” (Kanz Al-Umal, 6/158; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 11/173; Shawahid Al-Tanzil, 2/223; Yanabi' Al-Mawda, 94)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The Prophet said, “Every prophet has an executor and inheritor, and my executor and inheritor is ALI.” (Kanz Al-Umal, 6/158; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 11/173; Shawahid Al-Tanzil, 2/223; Yanabi' Al-Mawda, 94)

 

 

can u provide us with the chain of narrators?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The Prophet said, “Every prophet has an executor and inheritor, and my executor and inheritor is ALI.” (Kanz Al-Umal, 6/158; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 11/173; Shawahid Al-Tanzil, 2/223; Yanabi' Al-Mawda, 94)

 

Will you be honest to say Ali did execute or not? Didn't Ali let the 3 hypocrites take over for around 20 years? Did the Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s let Abu Jahl take over Madinah for even 20 seconds? Did the prophet fight wars with those who said shahadah? Did the Prophet fight wars like Jamal and Siffeen? Is this heritage of the Prophet?

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_twelver says:

 

 

I say: I’m not calling them sins, because that would be quite offensive for you. I should call them mistakes, blunders or something. I have already featured a few in the first two posts.

 

Ahlulbayt_110, we are focusing on Quran first.

 

S.M.H.A:

If I believe in complete predestination, then the failures, hardships suffered by Ali were already written by Allah. The obstacles in Ali’s way towards khilafah were signs to him from Allah that he should have been stopped, but he didn’t. He continued in the pursuit of khilafah, fought wars with Muslims using his own justifications.

 

And if I believe in ‘partial predestination’ then Ali was not capable to hold the office of a khalifah or he was not able to be an army general, that’s why he lost everything gradually. Even after his murder, his partisans gave hope and accepted the hegemony of Muawiyah in the Islamic World.

 

 

 

 

Actually my beliefs don’t matter at all in this discussion. We should follow what Quran has to say. It says that Adam sinned, Musa killed a man, other prophets made mistakes. 

 

We follow what’s clearly written, we don’t follow what a Maulana or Ayatullah has to comment on it.

 

 

I don’t know what you mean by the verse 11:124; there’s no 11:124 in Quran. And if you’re talking about Al Baqarah then it’s the chapter 2 and not 11. However if you’re talking about the 11th verse of Al Baqarah, here’s it is:

 

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ 

(2:11 )

 

Now this is upto the reader who they apply this verse on; Muawiyah or Ali or both. One thing is clear, that it was fasaad when they 3rd Caliph was killed. Now those who spread the fasaad (mischief) were those who became the partisans of Ali as they swore his allegiance or appointed him as their khalifah.

Partisans of Ali would call Muawiyah as the one who spread fasaad. Though Muawiyah didn’t take sides with those who rebelled against the Islamic khilafah.

But if you call it Jihad, what killed the 3rd khalifah Uthman, then the one who supported this Jihad against the 3rd khalifah was Ali. And if it’s true, then actually Ali conspired against the khalifah Uthman by inviting rebels from elsewhere into Madinah. So Ali was the chief of rebellion in this case. And then Ali will be questioned again. Why didn’t he raise such a rebellion when Abu Bakar and Umar usurped his right? Ok not his right, because Ali doesn’t want anything for himself. (The way he let Fadak go, and nobody cared what Fadak was?) But Ali didn’t do justice with people. People lived under three hypocrites (3 caliphs) who didn’t establish the shariah, Ali didn’t fulfill his duty. Prophet Muhammad didn’t let Abu Jahl rule the people of Madinah once he established the Islamic State. And when Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s was not able to establish the deen in Makkah he simply emigrated to a place where he was able to do it. But Ali didn’t emigrate to Kufah at the times of Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman. He didn’t establish his shia state outside Madinah. He didn’t walk on the blessed footsteps of the Prophet Muhammad a.s.w.s.

So there he didn’t do justice with people who had to live under the 3 hypocrites..

 

 

 

 

I’m not interested to know this. But if it has anything to do with this discussion, I’ll seek help from Quran.

 

 

 

Allah appoints the caliphs for the Ummah or not, Allah didn’t say in Quran that He s.w.t appointed Ali as the caliph.

Let’s say the appointments of caliphs are from Allah then who is your caliph today? Imam Khamenai? Where is your proof?

If it’s Imam Mahdi, then where’s he? He’s in ghaybah then why are you here? Why don’t you go away from this world into ghaybah with him? If caliphs are to be living in ghaybah away from their people, then why any Ali? What’s the use of Jamal and Siffeen? When Ali was already appointed by Allah, then why Ali killed Muslims to prove he was the khalifah and he was to be sworn the allegiance?

 

 

 

What method you used to chose your Imam Khomeni and then Imam Khamenai?

 

 

 

All were kafirs before Islam including Ali. He embraced Islam as the adopted son of the Prophet. He was living in the house of Prophet, taking his share from the domestic resources. It was not something brilliant to embrace Islam. He was dependent on the Prophet, Prophet invited his household to Islam, would Ali say no to his benefactor? Please don’t take offence, if you didn’t like the word ‘kafir’ for Ali, I said all the four were kafirs before Islam, not just Ali.

 

 

I would refer to only 33:33. Only the mothers of believers are included in 33:33. In order to include Ali, you have to bring a hadith which is out of scope of this discussion so far.

 

Ahlulbayt_110 again says:

 

 

Prophet’s life was hard but he didn’t fail, I’ve already mentioned it in the above post. Allah made things easy for the Prophet, but Allah made things difficult for Ali, Ali still went against the nature and that’s why he couldn’t succeed.

If Ali won battles with Dhulfiqar then it was not an achievement of Ali but of a sword called Dhulfiqar. Unfortunately this sword didn’t help Ali when it comes to facing Muawiyah.

And I don’t see Quran calls Ali a lion of Allah, no hadiths at the moment please. First get the picture to be clear in the light of Quran alone. Hadiths are not infallible, they were reported by people who were not infallible.

 

HamzaTR says:

 

Dear bro, first let the Quran speak and then we will move on to other human reserouces.

 

 

 

I would refer to only 33:33. Only the mothers of believers are included in 33:33. In order to include Ali, you have to bring a hadith which is out of scope of this discussion so far.

 

 

It doesn’t discriminate Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Muawiyah. They all qualify this verse.

 

Power says:

 

 

No verse of Quran uses the name of Ali, it’s only that you ‘have to’ interpret verses of Quran using fallible hadiths that were reported by fallible humans.

 

Important

 

I would request everyone to please stick to Quran alone until we make a clear picture on this issue. Thanks.

 

To properly understand your thought process:

 

(1) Do you believe in  Complete Predestination or ( Partial Predestination? Your current view?

 

(2) Do you believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbupahp) is infallible (no sin, error or mistake)? Your view?

 

(3) Define what Qur'an mean by Unjust in (Surah al Baqarah, 2:124)?  (Corrected)

 

(4) Are Angels superior to Humans? (Yes/No)

 

(5) Does Allah appoints the Khalifa or the Ummah? (Yes/No)

 

(6) If your answer to Q5 is Ummah, by which method?

 

(7) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were not Kafir before Islam? 

 

(8) Which one of the First Four Rulers of Islam were included in the following verses

 

(8a) (Surah al-Ahzab, 33:33)

 

(8b) (Surah al-Ma'ida, 5:55)

 

(8c)  (Surah aal- Imran  3:61)

 

(9) In (Surah al-Maida 5:67) Allah said that he will protect the Prophet from man, was the threat form non muslims or muslims? and what was the message that would have put the life of the Prophet(pbuhahp) in danger?

 

(10) Which one of the Four Ruler were the most  knowledgeable in Islam? and can you provide their books, or what non muslims say about them?  

Sure why not:

 

 

Ibn `Abbas, Anas, Sa`id bin Musayyib, Abu `Uthman An-Nahdi, `Ikrimah and several other scholars said that this Ayah was revealed about Suhayb bin Sinan Ar-Rumi. When Suhayb became a Muslim in Makkah and intended to migrate (to Al-Madinah), the people (Quraysh) prevented him from migrating with his money. They said that if he forfeits his property, he is free to migrate. He abandoned his money and preferred to migrate, and Allah revealed this Ayah about him. `Umar bin Khattab and several other Companions met Suhayb close to the outskirts of Al-Madinah at Al-Harrah (flat lands with black stones). They said to him, "The trade has indeed been successful.'' He answered them, "You too, may Allah never allow your trade to fail. What is the matter'' `Umar told him that Allah has revealed this Ayah (2:207) about him. It was also reported that Allah's Messenger said, "The trade has been successful, O Suhayb!''     (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

 

 

 

Tabatabai & Nasr hussain syed quote the merit of Sayyidna Ali ra in their tafseer. 

 

 

We do not insult or degrade Sayyidna Ali ra in any way. Its YOU who do lanah on the sahabas so dont question our respect for ur 1st imam. Sayydina Abu Bakr ra risked his life by joining Mohammad for migration to Madina. Have some shame before questioning his faith.

 

So, based on your research of ALL Sunni sources, who is this verse referring to?

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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So, based on your research of ALL Sunni sources, who is this verse referring to?

 

 

How many tafseer's do u think we should rely on at a time? Even if the writers have different interpretations? Tafseer ibn kathir is known as the mother of all sunni tafseers.

 

Mufti Shafi Usmani refers to the same incident in his Maarif ul Quran.

 

Different scholars have cited different incidents describing merits of the companions.

Edited by Invoker
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