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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are Sunni Kafir

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Wisdom007

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Isn't it kind of weird? Most people on this thread are defending Sunnis. If the question was reveresed on a sunni forum 90% people would be declaring us Kafir.

Ya Ali Madad.

Well if I had membership at Sunni forum, I'd be there defending Shia's. But there is no arguing with people like that. That's why I prefer Shia chat. Hopefully this forum won't become the same kind of thing.

As for "are Sunnis kafir?"... Well, I'm Sunni. I believe in the oneness of Allah, all of His prophets, that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was His final messenger, that the Qur'an is His final word, and that al-Mahdi will one day appear and lead the Muslims.

I also pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan. However, although I do try my hardest to avoid the haraam things of this life, I'm not perfect. I'm not a role model. I'm not a scholar. But I am a Muslim.

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Well if I had membership at Sunni forum, I'd be there defending Shia's. But there is no arguing with people like that. That's why I prefer Shia chat. Hopefully this forum won't become the same kind of thing.

As for "are Sunnis kafir?"... Well, I'm Sunni. I believe in the oneness of Allah, all of His prophets, that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was His final messenger, that the Qur'an is His final word, and that al-Mahdi will one day appear and lead the Muslims.

I also pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan. However, although I do try my hardest to avoid the haraam things of this life, I'm not perfect. I'm not a role model. I'm not a scholar. But I am a Muslim.

(salam)

...and I as a muslim(shia) see you as muslim (sunni). Enjoy you're stay here at shiachat, I hope you learn plenty...and no this forum has already proven that it is not like those of sunniforum.com

(wasalam)

Edited by kbsquare
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(salam)

...and I as a muslim(shia) see you as muslim (sunni). Enjoy you're stay here at shiachat, I hope you learn plenty...and no this forum has already proven that it is not like those of sunniforum.com

(wasalam)

وعليكم السلام

Thank you, and I've already noticed it's nothing like those forums. Both fortunately and unfortunately ;)

Not every Sunni hate Shia Muslims. And I'll always be an advocate for Islamic unity.

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وعليكم السلام

Thank you, and I've already noticed it's nothing like those forums. Both fortunately and unfortunately ;)

Not every Sunni hate Shia Muslims. And I'll always be an advocate for Islamic unity.

(salam)

Sadly, it seems like the likes of you are a growing less in number within the sunni community.

(wasalam)

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If I consider Shia faith a true Islam, then logically Sunnis are Kafir based on the doctrine of Imamate.

 

Based upon the rejection of each others Imams, Ismailis, Bohris & 12ers deem each other Disbelievers.

 

How on the earth can Sunnis be Muslim, when they don't actually reject Imams BUT THE STATUS OF IMAMATE (A SUPPOSED DIVINE STATUS)!!

 

Compare the situation with the people of book: Who believes in Prophethood, yet they reject the prophethood of our last prophet or Isa (as) in case of Jews. This situation can be compare between the Shia sects who believe in Imamate.

 

And compare the people of book (Jews, Christians and Muslims) with the people on this earth who don't ACCEPT PROPHTHOOD (the divine status by Allah) let alone accepting the prophets.

 

You will find many people on the face of this earth who Praise Prophet Muhammed (saw) as good human and leader, yet they don't consider any status of prophethood to be truthful. They are indeed not Muslims.

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A muslims is anyone who testifies that there is no God but Allah (swt) & that Muhammed (pbuh) is the messenger of God.

The Amman Message started as a detailed statement released the eve of the 27th of Ramadan 1425 AH / 9th November 2004 CE by H.M. King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein in Amman, Jordan. It sought to declare what Islam is and what it is not, and what actions represent it and what actions do not. Its goal was to clarify to the modern world the true nature of Islam and the nature of true Islam.

In order to give this statement more religious authority, H.M. King Abdullah II then sent the following three questions to 24 of the most senior religious scholars from all around the world representing all the branches and schools of Islam: (1) Who is a Muslim? (2) Is it permissible to declare someone an apostate (takfir)? (3) Who has the right to undertake issuing fatwas (legal rulings)?

Based on the fatwas provided by these great scholars (who included the Shaykh Al-Azhar; Ayatollah Sistani and Sheikh Qaradawi), in July 2005 CE, H.M. King Abdullah II convened an international Islamic conference of 200 of the world's leading Islamic scholars 'Ulama) from 50 countries. In Amman, the scholars unanimously issued a ruling on three fundamental issues (which became known as the 'Three Points of the Amman Message'):

1: They specifically recognized the validity of all 8 Mathhabs (legal schools) of Sunni, Shi'a and Ibadhi Islam; of traditional Islamic Theology (Ash'arism); of Islamic Mysticism (Sufism), and of true Salafi thought, and came to a precise definition of who is a Muslim.

2: Based upon this definition they forbade takfir (declarations of apostasy) between Muslims.

3: Based upon the Mathahib they set forth the subjective and objective preconditions for the issuing of fatwas, thereby exposing ignorant and illegitimate edicts in the name of Islam.

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Jews, Christians both believe in One God. Believing in one God & the Prophet of Mohammad saw as the final messenger makes u a non-kafir aka muslim.

 

I don't believe it's as black and white as u're putting it... they are many christians that don't even believe that Jesus is God or son of God or anything like that... they are purely monotheistic... and jews are monotheistic in general... one should not judge others... leave the judging to Allah SWT

 

Aur Apne Khuda se Khud Daro....kisi ki upar kafir nahin keh...sab ke faisle sirf Allah pe chor de.. leikain jis shaksh Musalmaan ya Masum Non Muslim ko katal karthey hain .. unkay upar Khuda ke Lanat hain.... is mein ko shak nahin hain... ye dekho ...

 

 

 

pehle insaan toh banjao .. phir acha musalmaan banjayega....

 

ye bhi dekho ...

 

Edited by blubberman911
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f I consider Shia faith a true Islam, then logically Sunnis are Kafir based on the doctrine of Imamate.

 

Based upon the rejection of each others Imams, Ismailis, Bohris & 12ers deem each other Disbelievers.

 

How on the earth can Sunnis be Muslim, when they don't actually reject Imams BUT THE STATUS OF IMAMATE (A SUPPOSED DIVINE STATUS)!!

 

Compare the situation with the people of book: Who believes in Prophethood, yet they reject the prophethood of our last prophet or Isa  (as) in case of Jews. This situation can be compare between the Shia sects who believe in Imamate.

 

 

You are too short sighted. Consider every one first as human being instead of giving the fatwas that so and so is kafir?

Edited by skamran110
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If I consider Shia faith a true Islam, then logically Sunnis are Kafir based on the doctrine of Imamate.

 

Based upon the rejection of each others Imams, Ismailis, Bohris & 12ers deem each other Disbelievers.

 

How on the earth can Sunnis be Muslim, when they don't actually reject Imams BUT THE STATUS OF IMAMATE (A SUPPOSED DIVINE STATUS)!!

 

Compare the situation with the people of book: Who believes in Prophethood, yet they reject the prophethood of our last prophet or Isa (as) in case of Jews. This situation can be compare between the Shia sects who believe in Imamate.

 

And compare the people of book (Jews, Christians and Muslims) with the people on this earth who don't ACCEPT PROPHTHOOD (the divine status by Allah) let alone accepting the prophets.

 

You will find many people on the face of this earth who Praise Prophet Muhammed (saw) as good human and leader, yet they don't consider any status of prophethood to be truthful. They are indeed not Muslims.

 

so according to the criteria set by you I can only assume you are a vegetarian since most of the butchers and slaughtering places i know are Sunni owned. and as everyone know you cant eat meat slaughtered by a Kaffir.

 

of course you might not consider Shia as the true faith hence i highlighted if on ur behalf

Edited by A true Sunni
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so according to the criteria set by you I can only assume you are a vegetarian since most of the butchers and slaughtering places i know are Sunni owned. and as everyone know you cant eat meat slaughtered by a Kaffir.

of course you might not consider Shia as the true faith hence i highlighted if on ur behalf

I think you're missing as to what he's trying to say..let mé make it as simple as possible for you...

Shia believe that imam Ali (as) is higher than all prophets (as) except the last (pbuh) some others argue that imam Ali (as) is higher than all prophets (as) excluding 5 or summat like that

Now other than the last (pbuh) or in the case of some shia's who exclude 5 (as) rejecting the other prophets (as) deems one a kafir, right? So then why not the same for your imams if they are higher than the other prophets (as) I can't make it any more simple than that!!!

Edited by Wisdom007
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End of time, A prophet will return, and someone else will return- according to the Majority belief-who will lead who in the prayers?

We not talking about that are we? I accept that Shia say imam mahdi (as) is higher than isa (as) that's not the issue here please re read what I am saying then come back with an answer

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Mission of Prophet Musa (as)- Complete for that time-Al-Islam not complete.

Mission of Prophet Isa(as) - Complete for his time- Al-Islam not complete.

 

Mission Of Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) - Complete- Al_Islam - Complete.

 

Executors/protectors of the message / Successors of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) and  of Al-Islam- the Complete Religion- What's the status?

Side comment: Prophets were not reverts/successor can’t be a revert.

Ref:(The Qur'an 5: 3 & 5:67)

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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Mission of Prophet Musa (as)- Complete for that time-Al-Islam not complete.

Mission of Prophet Isa(as) - Complete for his time- Al-Islam not complete.

Mission Of Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) - Complete- Al_Islam - Complete.

Executors/protectors of the message / Successors of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) and of Al-Islam- the Complete Religion- What's the status?

Side comment: Prophets were not reverts/successor can’t be a revert.

Ref:(The Qur'an 5: 3 & 5:67)

Instead of repeating yourself and trying to convince me that you believe imams are higher than prophets (as) which I already accept that Shia believe why don't you answer the actual question..if imams are higher than certain prophets (as) then why is it kuffar if we reject the prophethood if the prophets (as) which you say are lower than your imms but one can still stay a Muslim even if we reject this divine authority of imama of your 12 imams? Edited by Wisdom007
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[2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
[2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
[2:32] They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
[2:33] He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

 

According to the Majority view- who or what is meant here by "Names"?

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[2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

[2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

[2:32] They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

[2:33] He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

According to the Majority view- who or what is meant here by "Names"?

There you go you're at it yet again!!!!! I'm telling you I accept your view and I know you're trying to convince me to accept your beliefs but I'm asking you a SPECIFIC question.

Please could you answer that first

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I think you're missing as to what he's trying to say..let mé make it as simple as possible for you...

Shia believe that imam Ali (as) is higher than all prophets (as) except the last (pbuh) some others argue that imam Ali (as) is higher than all prophets (as) excluding 5 or summat like that

Now other than the last (pbuh) or in the case of some shia's who exclude 5 (as) rejecting the other prophets (as) deems one a kafir, right? So then why not the same for your imams if they are higher than the other prophets (as) I can't make it any more simple than that!!!

 

Let me make it even simpler for you. I am just exposing people who like to have have theoretical discussions as to who to call Kaffir and who not to. Yet in their everyday life it all goes out of the window.

Understand

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Let me make it even simpler for you. I am just exposing people who like to have have theoretical discussions as to who to call Kaffir and who not to. Yet in their everyday life it all goes out of the window.

Understand

Ummm....no I'm sorry but you've confused me that little but more could you elaborate

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.......why don't you answer the actual question..if imams are higher than certain prophets (as) then why is it kuffar if we reject the prophethood if the prophets (as) which you say are lower than your imms but one can still stay a Muslim even if we reject this divine authority of imama of your 12 imams?

 

There are two parts of your question.

 

1-  It is our belief that Imams are higher in ranks than the prophets. Do you need to get some information on it or you accept it as Shia belief?

 

2.  The divine status of Imams and that of prophets is different. How do you interpret that you should be considered as kafir for rejecting the  Imams?

 

The Quran describes the faction of people into Muslim, Momin, Kafir, Mushrik etc.

It is our belief that the rejecting divinely appointed Imams is Muslim but not Momin.

 

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110
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I wasnt talking to you and wasnt answering you . I was answering the OP. You were totally of topic. Cant make it any clearer then that

So what if you wernt talking to me? it's an open forum if you want a private chat PM who you want to talk to privately with. I was countering your halal meat argument with a point that actually makes more sense and if you can't answer then that's cool. Have a great life.

There are two parts of your question.

1- It is our belief that Imams are higher in ranks than the prophets. Do you need to get some information on it or you accept it as Shia belief?

2. The divine status of Imams and that of prophets is different. How do you interpret that you should be considered as kafir for rejecting the Imams?

The Quran describes the faction of people into Muslim, Momin, Kafir, Mushrik etc.

It is our belief that the rejecting divinely appointed Imams is Muslim but not Momin.

Regards.

1. I accept that it's a Shia belief. I've already said this in previous messages

2. If imams are higher than prophets then why would one be a kafir for rejecting prophethood of for eg; prophet sulaiman (as) yet remain a Muslim for rejecting Imamate of 12 imams who are apparently higher in status than certain prophets (as)

Edited by Wisdom007
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So what if you wernt talking to me? it's an open forum if you want a private chat PM who you want to talk to privately with. I was countering your halal meat argument with a point that actually makes more sense and if you can't answer then that's cool. Have a great life.

 

 

TBH you werent countering anything because you had failed to understand it. I chose not to answer anything you had said simple really

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2. If imams are higher than prophets then why would one be a kafir for rejecting prophethood of for eg; prophet sulaiman  (as) yet remain a Muslim for rejecting Imamate of 12 imams who are apparently higher in status than certain prophets  (as)

 

I may ask you which verse of Quran or an authentic hadith leads you to conclude  that we should consider rejecting of Imams is kufur? In the absence of such verse or hadith it is difficult to swallow.

 

 

Regards.

 

Edited by skamran110
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I may ask you which verse of Quran or an authentic hadith leads you to conclude that we should consider rejecting of Imams is kufur? In the absence of such verse or hadith it is difficult to swallow.

Regards.

Stop running in circles and stick to the topic. If imams are higher than majority of the prophets (as) then how is one a Muslim for rejecting your 12 imams but a kafir for rejecting prophets?? Who are apparently according to your school of thought are lower than your imams?? Edited by Wisdom007
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Stop running in circles and stick to the topic. If imams are higher than majority of the prophets (as) then how is one a Muslim for rejecting your 12 imams but a kafir for rejecting prophets?? Who are apparently according to your school of thought are lower than your imams??

 

You are confused here. In the absence of any verse of Quran or authentic hadith how can any one confirm someone to be a kafir?

 

However if some one like to be himself called kafir by rejecting the divinely appointed imams certainly I have no objection on it. But our interpretations  have already been given in my earlier posts. No more post from me is necessary after this.

 

Regards.

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