Islamic View On The Torah And Bible

[sm9658 13]

This is still one of the things that i cannot understand. Why were the Torah and bible revealed before the quran? In the past, were they essentially the same thing revealed for different people? Were the original torah and bible islamic texts?

I just don't understand why these other books were revealed if Islam is suppose to be the correct religion.

[PeaceLoving 228]

Islam is suppose to be the correct religion.

 

If you are making the assumption that Islam is the correct religion, there is no point in asking the questions that you have asked.

 

This is a discussion board, where you need to express your views in a little friendly manner, with some respect for the views of everyone, including atheists

 

I just don't understand why these other books were revealed 

 

To provide guidance to people of earlier generations. 

 

Were the original torah and bible islamic texts? 

 

Every Prophet taught the same message of God. Islam is just the name of God's message. It is not a new religion. 

 

So every book given by God was, in that context, an Islamic text.   

[andres 474]

So every book given by God was, in that context, an Islamic text.

.

How many books have been given by God and what are their names?

[Muhammad Taha 110]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

 Why were the Torah and bible revealed before the quran?

 

Because religions based on time and place have evolutionary process. also in holy Qur'an Allah says:

 

لِكلُ‏ٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شرِْعَةً وَ مِنْهَاجًا  وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَ لَاكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فىِ مَا ءَاتَئكُمْ  فَاسْتَبِقُواْ الْخَيرَْاتِ  إِلىَ اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تخَْتَلِفُونَ ... مائده/ 48

 

For each] community [among you We had appointed a code [of law] and a path, and had Allah wished He would have made you one community, but] His purposes required [that He should test you in respect to what He has given you. So take the lead in all good works. (5:48)

[PeaceLoving 228]

How many books have been given by God and what are their names?

 

Heaps but four are famous - the Psalms, the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran.  

 

Less famous ones are the Sahifa-e-Adam and Sahifa-e-Ibrahim, among others. 

 

Please try to understand the meaning of the word 'book'.

 

There were no printing presses or publishers in earlier times.

 

So if a prophet was given a book, it did not necessarily mean a 300 page screed. 

 

Just a few words told to a prophet could comprise a book.

 

Every prophet got a book of some sort, either from his predecessor or anew.

 

Actually, every prophet did not need a new book because the message never changed.

 

But a new 'book' was sometimes necessary in view of historical developments and perhaps some other reaons.

[andres 474]

And which of theese have been saved (uncorrupted) till today according to Muslim belief?

[PeaceLoving 228]

Sorry, I don't know

[andres 474]

I have got a strong feeling only the content of the Quran is available.

[sm9658 13]

If you are making the assumption that Islam is the correct religion, there is no point in asking the questions that you have asked.

This is a discussion board, where you need to express your views in a little friendly manner, with some respect for the views of everyone, including atheists

To provide guidance to people of earlier generations.

Every Prophet taught the same message of God. Islam is just the name of God's message. It is not a new religion.

So every book given by God was, in that context, an Islamic text.

Uh.. Well my question was asked from an islamic. view of why the other books were sent which is why I said "suppose to be".

I probably chose the wrong section on the forum since I asked from an islamic point of view but that was my mistake.

My question was essentially, do all these books have the same content? Do they all contain different content?

[PeaceLoving 228]

My question was essentially, do all these books have the same content

 

In matters of principle. yes.

[PeaceLoving 228]

Do they all contain different content?

 

Not in principle.

 

Only in details of the law, practice and rituals.

[andres 474]

Uh.. Well my question was asked from an islamic. view of why the other books were sent which is why I said "suppose to be".

I probably chose the wrong section on the forum since I asked from an islamic point of view but that was my mistake.

My question was essentially, do all these books have the same content? Do they all contain different content?

The text of extinct books can not be determined. Personally I am convinced they never even existed. Except for the Quran itself of course.

[Netzari 127]

So here's my question: where in the Qur'an and hadith does it say the previous books are corrupted or shouldn't be followed anymore? We read in Surah 3:3, that the Qur'an verifies the Taurat and Injil. I am convinced that the Torah we have today is the same that existed when this ayat was revealed.

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

So here's my question: where in the Qur'an and hadith does it say the previous books are corrupted or shouldn't be followed anymore? We read in Surah 3:3, that the Qur'an verifies the Taurat and Injil. I am convinced that the Torah we have today is the same that existed when this ayat was revealed.

O Messenger, let them not grieve thee that vie with one another in unbelief, such men as say with their mouths 'We believe' but their hearts believe not; and the Jews who listen to falsehood, listen to other folk, who have not come to thee, perverting words from their meanings, saying, 'If you are given this, then take it; if you are not given it, beware!' Whomsoever God desires to try, thou canst not avail him anything with God. Those are they whose hearts God desired not to purify; for them is degradation in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement; (41)

who listen to falsehood, and consume the unlawful. If they come to thee, judge thou between them, or turn away from them; if thou turnest away from them, they will hurt thee nothing; and if thou judgest, judge justly between them; God loves the just. (42) 

Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God's judgment, then thereafter turn their backs? They are not believers. (43)

 Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light; thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God's Book as they were given to keep and were witnesses to. So fear not men, but fear you Me; and sell not My signs for a little price. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down - they are the unbelievers.(44) 

And therein We prescribed for them: 'A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds retaliation'; but whosoever forgoes it as a freewill offering, that shall be for him an expiation. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the evildoers. (45)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing. (46) 

So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly. (47) 

And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (48)

 And judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, and beware of them lest they tempt thee away from any of what God has sent down to thee. But if they turn their backs, know that God desires only to smite them for some sin they have committed; surely, many men are ungodly. (49)

 Is it the judgment of pagandom then that they are seeking? Yet who is fairer in judgment than God, for a people having sure faith? (50)

 

 

 

 

i am not sure why translators used various words to translate muhaymin but they did not use its basic meaning "dominating over the previous books"

[Netzari 127]

Thank you! What Surah is that?

[salamtek 44]

So here's my question: where in the Qur'an and hadith does it say the previous books are corrupted or shouldn't be followed anymore? We read in Surah 3:3, that the Qur'an verifies the Taurat and Injil. I am convinced that the Torah we have today is the same that existed when this ayat was revealed.

 

This is true, to an extent.

 

However, I'd like to call to your attention in Surah 2 (Baqarah/Heifer), verse 75

 

أفتطمعون أن يؤمنوا لكم وقد كان فر‌يق منهم يسمعون كلام الله ثم يحر‌فونه من بعد ما عقلوه وهم يعلمون

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

يحر‌فونه comes from the verb حرف, meaning slant, deviate, distort, diverge, contort, corrupt.

 

The word here, يحر‌فونه, means "[they] distort [it]"

 

It says that Jews (deducted from the reference to the Torah as per translations, as the Arabic reads كلام الله، or word of God), knew that they corrupted God's word.

 

There's a sunni fatwa website that tries to show how there have been tahreef (or changes, corruptions) in the torah and the gospels.

They also state on the website that the evidence they have for it is a weak hadeeth (I just skimmed, so no guarantees that's the only proof)

 

Also, Maiidah: 12-13, references Jews

 

ولقد أخذ اللـه ميثاق بني إسر‌ائيل وبعثنا منهم اثني عشر‌ نقيبا وقال اللـه إني معكم لئن أقمتم الصلاة وآتيتم الزكاة وآمنتم بر‌سلي وعزر‌تموهم وأقر‌ضتم اللـه قر‌ضا حسنا لأكفر‌ن عنكم سيئاتكم ولأدخلنكم جنات تجر‌ي من تحتها الأنهار‌ فمن كفر‌ بعد ذلك منكم فقد ضل سواء السبيل

Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

13

 

بما نقضهم ميثاقهم لعناهم وجعلنا قلوبهم قاسية يحر‌فون الكلم عن مواضعه ونسوا حظا مما ذكر‌وا به ولا تزال تطلع على خائنة منهم إلا قليلا منهم فاعف عنهم واصفح إن اللـه يحب المحسنين

And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

this verse seems to suggest the Christians did the same

15

 

ومن الذين قالوا إنا نصار‌ى أخذنا ميثاقهم فنسوا حظا مما ذكر‌وا به فأغر‌ينا بينهم العداوة والبغضاء إلى يوم القيامة وسوف ينبئهم اللـه بما كانوا يصنعون

And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.

 

 

No Muslim can accept the Gospels ever, because that would mean the foundation of the Quran is corrupt.

 

However, I think Sunnis have a hadeeth in which Muhammad came over to a Jewish worship house (it could have been a beth deen) and he puts his hands over the torah and says "I believe in you/the one who sent you" or something to that affect (I think its grade was weak), but don't quote me.

 

Interestingly in Maidah 47, we see

 

وليحكم أهل الإنجيل بما أنزل اللـه فيه ومن لم يحكم بما أنزل اللـه فأولئك هم الفاسقون

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

It's instructing Muslims to allow Christians (ahlel injeel, ie people of the Gospels) to judge what the gospels say, even though they are "supposedly" corrupted.

Edited September 12, 2014 by salamtek

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

Thank you! What Surah is that?

Al-Ma'idah.

5th Chapter. 

[andres 474]

I am convinced that the Torah we have today is the same that existed when this ayat was revealed.

Of course. The Torah and the Gospels that we find in todays Bibles has the same content as those available to Muhammed. The Quran speaks about editions that, if they ever existed, vanished without leaving any trace centuries before the Quran was compiled.

[salamtek 44]

However, I think Sunnis have a hadeeth in which Muhammad came over to a Jewish worship house (it could have been a beth deen) and he puts his hands over the torah and says "I believe in you/the one who sent you" or something to that affect (I think its grade was weak), but don't quote me.

 I found the hadeeth, and it's grade (ie, weak, good, authentic) is actually better than I recalled.

 

Also in Saheeh Bukhari (which means it is by default the highest grade a hadeeth can have, i.e Saheeh), narrated by Ibn Abbas

 

You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged (Quran), and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it

I can only assume that "Allah [has] told" them through the verses in the Quran.

I think this shows that there's at least a tradition of viewing the torah and the gospels as changed within Islam.

 

In the Quran as well (adding to my earlier post), Christians are told to deny the divinity of Jesus because of exaggeration; but how is it exaggerating if it's in our gospel?

Nisa2(Women,4): 141

 

يا أهل الكتاب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مر‌يم ر‌سول الله وكلمته ألقاها إلى مر‌يم ور‌وح منه فآمنوا بالله ور‌سله ولا تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خير‌ا لكم إنما اللـه إله واحد سبحانه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السماوات وما في الأر‌ض وكفى بالله وكيلا

 

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

 

But exaggerate is different than to change. Exaggerating consists of

1) There is a claim

2) The claim is taken out of context.

 

When the claim is in the Bible, we cannot be exaggerating the Bible.

 

Therefore, what is taken in excess?

Edited September 13, 2014 by salamtek

[placid 408]

Quote from Post 16:
Netzari, on 11 Sept 2014 - 4:00 PM, said:
So here's my question: where in the Qur'an and hadith does it say the previous books are corrupted or shouldn't be followed anymore? We read in Surah 3:3, that the Qur'an verifies the Taurat and Injil. I am convinced that the Torah we have today is the same that existed when this ayat was revealed.
Salam: This is true, to an extent.
However, I'd like to call to your attention in Surah 2 (Baqarah/Heifer), verse 75
Quote
أفتطمعون أن يؤمنوا لكم وقد كان فريق منهم يسمعون كلام الله ثم يحرفونه من بعد ما عقلوه وهم يعلمون
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Response: --- If you notice when and where this is written, you will realize that it speaks of the ‘unbelieving ‘ Jews in Muhammad’s day (Surah 2 was written about the second year of the Hijrah) and it says in other versions Surah 2:
75 Pickthall: Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?

75Yusuf Ali: Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you? - Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of God, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

This has nothing to do with changing the words in the Torah, as though any group of people could round up all the Bibles and make a change in them.
This is saying that --- AFTER THEY HEARD THE WORD (from the Torah or former Scriptures), AND UNDERSTOOD IT, they changed it when they taught it to others.

It follows the verses in Surah 2 of the sacrifice of the yellow heifer, and then the sacrifice of Jesus in these verses:
72 And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and Allah, would bring to light what you were hiding.
73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' (the sacrificed heifer), and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

This is the incident that neither Jews nor Muslims like to acknowledge, --- then the context goes to the rebellious and hypocritical Jews, which starts next:
74 Then your hearts (the Jews) became hardened after that, till they were like stones or harder still; for of stones there are some out of which gush forth streams, and of them there are some out of which flows water when they cleave asunder. And indeed of them are some that humble themselves for the fear of Allah. And Allah is not unmindful of what you do.
75 (Your verse): Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you? - Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of God, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

And notice the next verses in the context:
76 Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": But when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what God hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?" - Do ye not understand (their aim)?
77 Know they not that God knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?
78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price! - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This has nothing to do with changing Scriptures but it is the same as writers today who write books that slander both Christianity and Islam using some Scripture verses, --- and sell them for profit.

They do nothing to change or corrupt any Scripture, they just distort their interpretation, do they not?

Quote also from Post 16:
And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished.

Response: --- If they forgot part of it, or ignored the law, what does that have to do with changing Scripture? --- Nothing.

The context of your next verse is in Surah 5:
46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
 

Quote: (Your verse):--- 47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
It's instructing Muslims to allow Christians (ahlel injeel, ie people of the Gospels) to judge what the gospels say, even though they are "supposedly" corrupted.

Response: --- Since Gabriel confirmed that the former Scriptures were true in 3:3-4, and 5:47-48, then it is only critics that talk of corruption, because there was no change in Scripture, was there?

Placid
 

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

Placid

 

do you accept the bible narrative of Lot the prophet and his daughters?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A30-36&version=NIV

 

The bible narrative of prophet Noah and his sons

http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-21.htm

 

The bible narrative of prophet David and his neighbor's woman

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+9-20

 

These stories in bible confirm the Muslims understanding that the corruption that is mentioned in Quran about the bible was on many levels but it reached to the level of making up words. Is is translation error? I don't know but i do know that the above narrations are contradictory to Islamic teachings regarding the prophets.

[salamtek 44]

They do nothing to change or corrupt any Scripture, they just distort their interpretation, do they not?

 

placid,

 

Islam definitely argues that there have been tahreif in both the Tawrat and Injeel.

 

I'm not saying that there has been tahreif in the Gospels or the Torah. 

It is a claim not validated by history, but the Quran, (according to some weak hadiths) Muhammad, (following stronger hadiths) his companions AND Islamic scholars.

 

After appealing to the Qur'an, authentic traditions of the Prophet, his companions, early Muslims and greatest Muslim scholars we come to the conclusion that Islam does endorse directly and indirectly the textual corruption of the Torah and Gospel. There is no other source of religious Islamic authority one can go to. The issue is clear and Christian missionaries who are sincere and are truth seekers should stop using these out dated kind of arguments.

 

Secondly, I don't think you understand تحريف.

 

From an Arabic dictionary

 

 

 تَحْرِيفُ الكَلاَمِ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ : تَغْيِيرُهُ وَتَبْدِيلُهُ وَإِعْطَاؤُهُ تَفْسِيرًا مُغَايِراً لِمَقَاصِدِهِ

 

تغييره = change

و = and

تبديله = replace

and be given a different explanation for a with an agenda (literally a different purpose, changed meaning other than what was meant originally)

 

Therefore, in one sense of the term, the Gospels and Torah (according to Muslims; again, I condemn this belief); have been

(1) changed, (2) replaced, and (3) given a different explanation

 

It also says

 تَحْرِيفُ:

 الاختلاف بين الأصل المخطوط والنُّسخ التي أخذت عنه حدث

Ikhtilaf beyn alasil almkhtoot w alnskh

Inconsistencies (also difference, opposition, etc) concerning (between) the original document (text, manuscript) and the copy (reproduction)

(takes from an event).

 

In this sense, it's an inconsistency between the original events in the Bible (Muslims believe there is an original) and the current versions of the Torah and Gospels, which go along with the path that Chaotic Muslem was heading.

 

Either way, the Muslims will argue that both of these constitute a change.

They would be right if it were true.

 

Yet, if Muslims admit that the Gospels are proper, there is no Islam.

The burden of proof is on the Muslims; not us, to show that there have been changes in the Bible.

[placid 408]

 

Hi Chaotic,

 

Quote from Post 21:

do you accept the bible narrative of Lot the prophet and his daughters?

https://www.biblegat...-36&version=NIV

 The bible narrative of prophet Noah and his sons

http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-21.htm

 The bible narrative of prophet David and his neighbor's woman

https://www.biblegat...h=2 Samuel 9-20

 

Response: --- Yes, I believe this history in the OT

There three historic figures are written about in the Quran. --- The OT records not only the good, but the sinful and the distasteful, --- but these are the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed as true in the Quran, are they not?

I believe that in saying Gabriel confirmed it, then God, who gave it to Gabriel would also have confirmed it, to have it recorded in the original Scripture, and Muhammad then would have confirmed it as true in the writing of the Quran.

--- Or else we can’t believe the Quran, can we?

 

Quote: These stories in bible confirm the Muslims understanding that the corruption that is mentioned in Quran about the bible was on many levels but it reached to the level of making up words. Is is translation error? I don't know but i do know that the above narrations are contradictory to Islamic teachings regarding the prophets.

 

Response: --- If you are suggesting that there was ‘corruption’ in the OT because the people were corrupt, then that is right. There were many people who did wicked things.

--- (Can you list the verses from the Quran that mention 'corruption' in the Bible?)

 

If you point out these three as being corrupt in their morality, yes they were. But in the Book of Romans it says in 3:

23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” --- And again, “There is none righteous, no not one.”

--- So in the Bible there are no ‘infallible’ people

If you are saying that these three were incapable of sin because they were prophets of God, then you are adding to the Scripture that says “All have sinned.”

While the Roman Catholic Church classes their Popes as ‘infallible’ as well as the Muslim classification of prophets being ‘infallible,’ --- there is no ‘infallibility’ in the OT.

 

The only place the word is used in the NT is in Acts 1:

3 (Jesus) also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

 

 

Among the Patriarchs, there were many who had immoral relationships.

If you don’t like the record that God gave of these three in the OT then just scratch them off your list of ‘infallibles.’

 

The proof of Lot’s action is online. --- The sons were called Ammon and Moab.

 

Quote from Wikipedia: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's daughters.

They were the fathers of the Ammonites and the Moabites.

 

Quote from Wikipedia: Bathsheba was from David's own tribe and the granddaughter of one of David's closest advisors (2 Sam.15:12)."^[1] She was the mother of Solomon, who succeeded David as king, making her the Queen Mother

 

Noah’s drinking of wine may have been accidental, since before the flood grape juice may have been kept for a period of time, because the ‘water canopy’ filtered the sun. --- After the rain fell, everything was exposed to the sun’s rays, and food would spoil or ferment more quickly. --- Nevertheless, it was his foolishness or over indulgence that caused the incident.

 

Placid

 

 

[Son of Placid 1,449]

 

O Messenger, let them not grieve thee that vie with one another in unbelief, such men as say with their mouths 'We believe' but their hearts believe not; and the Jews who listen to falsehood, listen to other folk, who have not come to thee, perverting words from their meanings, saying, 'If you are given this, then take it; if you are not given it, beware!' Whomsoever God desires to try, thou canst not avail him anything with God. Those are they whose hearts God desired not to purify; for them is degradation in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement; (41)

who listen to falsehood, and consume the unlawful. If they come to thee, judge thou between them, or turn away from them; if thou turnest away from them, they will hurt thee nothing; and if thou judgest, judge justly between them; God loves the just. (42) 

Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God's judgment, then thereafter turn their backs? They are not believers. (43)

 Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light; thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God's Book as they were given to keep and were witnesses to. So fear not men, but fear you Me; and sell not My signs for a little price. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down - they are the unbelievers.(44) 

And therein We prescribed for them: 'A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds retaliation'; but whosoever forgoes it as a freewill offering, that shall be for him an expiation. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the evildoers. (45)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing. (46) 

So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly. (47) 

And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (48)

 And judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, and beware of them lest they tempt thee away from any of what God has sent down to thee. But if they turn their backs, know that God desires only to smite them for some sin they have committed; surely, many men are ungodly. (49)

 Is it the judgment of pagandom then that they are seeking? Yet who is fairer in judgment than God, for a people having sure faith? (50)

 

 

 

 

i am not sure why translators used various words to translate muhaymin but they did not use its basic meaning "dominating over the previous books"

 

I think the translators used various words, (as in "protector") because none of them found it meant dominating over previous books. Besides, what's the use of "confirming past scripture" is there's no scripture to confirm? Which books did Gabriel condemn? Why are these past scriptures mentioned, (for guidance and light), was Gabriel into rhetorical babble? 

 

 

Actually, all of your ayats talk about what the disbelievers did. No mention of corrupting books. What did the believers do? 

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

I think the translators used various words, (as in "protector") because none of them found it meant dominating over previous books. Besides, what's the use of "confirming past scripture" is there's no scripture to confirm? Which books did Gabriel condemn? Why are these past scriptures mentioned, (for guidance and light), was Gabriel into rhetorical babble? 

 

 

Actually, all of your ayats talk about what the disbelievers did. No mention of corrupting books. What did the believers do? 

Well, from islamic point of view, those who knew the scriptures and those who did not attempt to divert the true meaning of it by poor translation nor confused true revaluation with fantasia from oral traditions , those believers from Christians and Jews, converted to Islam.

The rest are simply disbelievers in our books and in the books of Moses and Jesus, the true books of mOses and Jesus, they preferred to stick with corrupted made up tradition.

How we can tell which books and which verses were corrupted and which were not? That's what that verse was answering. The word Muhaymin carries the meaning of being the reference to truthfulness when it comes to the previous texts.

In Shia thought, this is similar to how we treat the hadiths from Sunni sources as we consider them a mixed of hadiths, poor interpretations and blatant lies. The way to accept or reject a hadith from their sources is to make Quran and Ahlulbayt teachings the Muhaimen over them.

So, when we read in genesis that a prophet slept with his daughter but Quran and Ahlulbayt taught us that prophets are infallible then surely that book of genesis is corrupt.

This is the meaning of Muhaymin.

 

There was true Injil (physical book) and Torah. There are still true verses in the current bible, but muslims believe that there are as well corrupt verses. So when Quran asks You to contemplate the previous text, Quran is referring to the correct verses but because Quran knows that there are corrupted verses, Quran made a warning as well.

 

Islam abrogated the previous religions. Some of what islam don't practice was a true ritual brought by true prophet but that ritual was abrogated. Some laws were abrogated and acceptance of previous religions was abrogated. What we are allowed to use is Quran and prophet's hadiths only, not the previous scriptures.

 

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

 2:85

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

 

Hi Chaotic,

 

Quote from Post 21:

do you accept the bible narrative of Lot the prophet and his daughters?

https://www.biblegat...-36&version=NIV

 The bible narrative of prophet Noah and his sons

http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-21.htm

 The bible narrative of prophet David and his neighbor's woman

https://www.biblegat...h=2 Samuel 9-20

 

Response: --- Yes, I believe this history in the OT

There three historic figures are written about in the Quran. --- The OT records not only the good, but the sinful and the distasteful, --- but these are the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed as true in the Quran, are they not?

I believe that in saying Gabriel confirmed it, then God, who gave it to Gabriel would also have confirmed it, to have it recorded in the original Scripture, and Muhammad then would have confirmed it as true in the writing of the Quran.

--- Or else we can’t believe the Quran, can we?

 

Quote: These stories in bible confirm the Muslims understanding that the corruption that is mentioned in Quran about the bible was on many levels but it reached to the level of making up words. Is is translation error? I don't know but i do know that the above narrations are contradictory to Islamic teachings regarding the prophets.

 

Response: --- If you are suggesting that there was ‘corruption’ in the OT because the people were corrupt, then that is right. There were many people who did wicked things.

--- (Can you list the verses from the Quran that mention 'corruption' in the Bible?)

 

If you point out these three as being corrupt in their morality, yes they were. But in the Book of Romans it says in 3:

23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” --- And again, “There is none righteous, no not one.”

--- So in the Bible there are no ‘infallible’ people

If you are saying that these three were incapable of sin because they were prophets of God, then you are adding to the Scripture that says “All have sinned.”

While the Roman Catholic Church classes their Popes as ‘infallible’ as well as the Muslim classification of prophets being ‘infallible,’ --- there is no ‘infallibility’ in the OT.

 

The only place the word is used in the NT is in Acts 1:

3 (Jesus) also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

 

 

Among the Patriarchs, there were many who had immoral relationships.

If you don’t like the record that God gave of these three in the OT then just scratch them off your list of ‘infallibles.’

 

The proof of Lot’s action is online. --- The sons were called Ammon and Moab.

 

Quote from Wikipedia: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's daughters.

They were the fathers of the Ammonites and the Moabites.

 

Quote from Wikipedia: Bathsheba was from David's own tribe and the granddaughter of one of David's closest advisors (2 Sam.15:12)."^[1] She was the mother of Solomon, who succeeded David as king, making her the Queen Mother

 

Noah’s drinking of wine may have been accidental, since before the flood grape juice may have been kept for a period of time, because the ‘water canopy’ filtered the sun. --- After the rain fell, everything was exposed to the sun’s rays, and food would spoil or ferment more quickly. --- Nevertheless, it was his foolishness or over indulgence that caused the incident.

 

Placid

 

 

I'd rather scratch the verses that said that these three made such immoral cats instead of saying that the glorious God sent us such drunk humans, they He couldn't find someone better to deliver His message then He expect people to not doubt them, to respect them and follow them.

Nah, Im sticking with Islamic narration, to you your religion and to me mine.

I prefer to worship a glorious Qudous God.

Though i believe that this verse exclude the prophets from the general condemnation of Jews and their contemporary pagans:

 

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[andres 474]

Well, from islamic point of view, those who knew the scriptures and those who did not attempt to divert the true meaning of it by poor translation nor confused true revaluation with fantasia from oral traditions , those believers from Christians and Jews, converted to Islam.

How could anyone know what the "true meaning" of the Torah and Gospel when the only editions available were the corrupted ones that we still read today? The Quran never points out any of the "corrupted" verses in the Bible. In my opinion this gives these accusations no credibility.

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

How could anyone know what the "true meaning" of the Torah and Gospel when the only editions available were the corrupted ones that we still read today? The Quran never points out any of the "corrupted" verses in the Bible. In my opinion this gives these accusations no credibility.

Quran said Jesus is not son of God. Said that jesus was not crucified and said that Jesus was raised to heaven the day the crucification of the other man happened (meaning that the story of resurrection after 3 days is a fantasy).

 

Also Quran said follow the new prophet teachings. Many of our prophet teachings (including the stories about previous prophets) are contradictory with the previous books which according to Quran wouldn't be contradictory if the books weren't corrupted.

 

[andres 474]

That Christians believed in the divinity and crucifixion of Jesus would be common knowledge in places where Cristians lived and is not enough to demonstrate a knowledge of the biblical text. Quran also say that worshipping Mary is wrong. Christians dont, it only appeares so to ignorant people, it is not biblical.

Naturally Muhammed had some knowledge of Christian and Jewish religion, but there is nothing in the Quran that indicates that he had ever read the corrupted version of the Injeel and Torah. And of course the "originals" were not available.

To my knowledge the Quran does not say another man was crucified instead of Jesus.

Edited September 15, 2014 by andres

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

That Christians believed in the divinity and crucifixion of Jesus would be common knowledge in places where Cristians lived and is not enough to demonstrate a knowledge of the biblical text. Quran also say that worshipping Mary is wrong. Christians dont, it only appeares so to ignorant people, it is not biblical.

Naturally Muhammed had some knowledge of Christian and Jewish religion, but there is nothing in the Quran that indicates that he had ever read the corrupted version of the Injeel and Torah. And of course the "originals" were not available.

To my knowledge the Quran does not say another man was crucified instead of Jesus.

mary divinity

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

 

I think muslims assert that prophet didn't read, or didn't read the old scripture.

Shia specifically believe that our prophet and Imams knew about the original books and own them. 

 

quran said a man was crucified but was not jesus. 

[andres 474]

mary divinity

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

Catholics believe Mary is a saint, but they do not worship her as a God. Muhammed obviously believed she was a part of trinity. It is possible that some illiterate Christians in the arabian peninsula really believed this and did worshipped her, but it is not Christian teaching or supported in the Bible.

Shia specifically believe that our prophet and Imams knew about the original books and own them.

So where are they now? You dont really believe this, do you?

quran said a man was crucified but was not jesus.

Please present the quote from the Quran.

[placid 408]

Hi Chaotic,

 

Since you are giving the Islamic view as you have learned it, that is okay. There is no value in discussing the points of dispute if we are not going to use the Bible and the Quran as reference Books THE WAY THEY WERE WRITTEN.

 

Gabriel said the former Scriptures, the Torah and the Gospel, were true, --- therefore God said they were true, and Muhammad had them written as true in the Quran.

--- Don’t you believe that the Quran is true?

--- Had there been any corruption in the Scriptures, Gabriel would have known about it, would he not?

 

Quote from Post 30:

Quran said a man was crucified but was not jesus.

Where is this verse in the Quran?

 

 

Quote from Post 28:

Quran said Jesus is not son of God.

 

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God, as Gabriel said in Surah 19:

19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

 

33 So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

--- (This truth has never been doubted or disputed by Christians.)

 

35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

 

--- “It is not befitting” means it was ‘out of the ordinary’ and seemingly below the dignity of God, but God said “Be” and He was.

 

Jesus could not be a biological Son, but having no earthly Father, He came from God, did He not?

 

This is where the Gospel and the Quran say the same, as written in Luke 1:

30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;

34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

 

The angel Gabriel said, “He will be CALLED the Son of God,” --- which He has been called ever since He was born.

--- You see, the same God, the same Gabriel, the same Mary, and the same Jesus.

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

Catholics believe Mary is a saint, but they do not worship her as a God. Muhammed obviously believed she was a part of trinity. It is possible that some illiterate Christians in the arabian peninsula really believed this and did worshipped her, but it is not Christian teaching or supported in the Bible.

So where are they now? You dont really believe this, do you?

Please present the quote from the Quran.

I think that your informations about the Islamic narrative about Jesus are flawed. May you tell me what was your sources or where did you learn about Islamic view of trinity ? I maybe able to provide the relevant information.

[andres 474]

Please do!

1)You can provide me with the Quranic verse(s) that say that another person was crucified instead of Jesus.

2) you can tell me what happened to the original Injeel and Torah that was in Muhammeds possesion.

3) All sources I have seen agree that Islam does not accept the idea of trinity.

[Chaotic Muslem 5,779]

Hi Chaotic,

Since you are giving the Islamic view as you have learned it, that is okay. There is no value in discussing the points of dispute if we are not going to use the Bible and the Quran as reference Books THE WAY THEY WERE WRITTEN.

Gabriel said the former Scriptures, the Torah and the Gospel, were true, --- therefore God said they were true, and Muhammad had them written as true in the Quran.

--- Don’t you believe that the Quran is true?

--- Had there been any corruption in the Scriptures, Gabriel would have known about it, would he not?

Quote from Post 30:

Quran said a man was crucified but was not jesus.

Where is this verse in the Quran?

Quote from Post 28:

Quran said Jesus is not son of God.

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God, as Gabriel said in Surah 19:

19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

33 So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

--- (This truth has never been doubted or disputed by Christians.)

35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- “It is not befitting” means it was ‘out of the ordinary’ and seemingly below the dignity of God, but God said “Be” and He was.

Jesus could not be a biological Son, but having no earthly Father, He came from God, did He not?

This is where the Gospel and the Quran say the same, as written in Luke 1:

30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;

34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

The angel Gabriel said, “He will be CALLED the Son of God,” --- which He has been called ever since He was born.

--- You see, the same God, the same Gabriel, the same Mary, and the same Jesus.

I belive in Allah, Quran and Muhammad

I disbelieve in wahhabi for of Islam.

I belive in Jesus the way Muhammad described him.

I disbelieve in the way the modern Christians are describing Jesus.

I belive that Jesus was a prophet

I belive that his book was truth

I belive that Quran is mentioning the true injil with praise

And is mentioning there are those some learned men from the people of the book who knew the true way to recite the injil, the true narrative, the true context, and the true interpretation

But they diverted the words from their true meanings. They presented their opinions as divine revelation .

Just because Quran mentioned a good Christian men from the past and described them as believers dose jot mean that Quran considers any Christian as believer.

As for injil, even if we assumed that the original text is available so it is not corrupted, I would still not use it as reference because it has been abrogated by Quran.

Jesus also when he will come back at the end of days will not come back as prophet with new revelation, he will come back as follower of muhammad