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In the Name of God بسم الله

Public Declaration Of Successor Of Imam Mahdi

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Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. have several times before the episode of Gadeer Khum have privately declared Ali as his successor.

 

Allah asked Prophet Mohammad s.a.w.w. to publicly declare that Mola Ali is his successor but Prophet expressed concerns, over it, then Allah said, "Should you not publicly declare this then it is akin to you have done nothing as Prophet! Then on 18th Zilhij 10-hijri Prophet s.a.w.w. on ground of Gadeer Khum announced Mola Ali as his successor.

 

We learn from above that 'public declaration' is the must to become the successor.

 

 

Can any knowledgable member let me know: In which all books can one find detail information (time, place, witness of declaration, etc) that Imam Hasan Al Askari publicly declared that his son Mohammad (Mahdi) will be next Imam?

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what you say (the first part) is right when the shift is from the Prophet (s) to his successor; but you cannot apply this logic in the times of Taqqiyyah, several Imams before the Eleventh Imam (a) couldn't "publicly" announce their successor, they could only tell their close companions in hidden circles. sometimes even that was not possible and many shias where confused like the case of Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã who because of Taqqiyyah had to hide his successor in his will and announce his successor as "one of the four" mentioned in his will, and it was up to close companions and learned shias to discover who was the Divine Imam given the characteristics of the Imams, Like examining his knowledge, miracles, patience and other Divine merits.

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what you say (the first part) is right when the shift is from the Prophet (s) to his successor; but you cannot apply this logic in the times of Taqqiyyah

 

Which books says that same logic cannot be applied in the time of taqqiyyah and reasoning for same? Or is to your personal thinking?

 

Thanks

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Which books says that same logic cannot be applied in the time of taqqiyyah and reasoning for same? Or is to your personal thinking?

 

Thanks

 

which book says "the public deceleration" is a necessarily criterion of Imam, or is it you personal thinking? based on a personal analogy (qiyas) with the case of the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (a)

 

the concept and practice of Taqqiyya is all over shia tradition, one of which is the declaration of the next Imam.

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Sunnat = Do as Prophet does.

Mohammad s.a.w.w. publicly declared Ali as his successor. So does Ali to Hasan, and likewise Hasan to Hussain, Hussain to...... These are not 'qayas', but are facts documented by everyone in all sects for all past years.

Unless the current authority will not declare his successor how will next person will become authority?

Does any of our literature says that even privately (with time, place and witness details) the successor declaration was made by Imam Hasan Askari?

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Yes, there is a book by shaykh al-Mufid, called: al-Irshad that narrated the (private and inner-community) declarations of the Imamate of the Imams.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Irshad_fi_ma%27rifat_hujaj_Allah_%27ala_al-%27ibad_(book)

It's the book itself:

http://lib.eshia.ir/27035/1/1

Sunna = following the Prophet (s) in his practices

Prophet fought with pagens, why didn't our Imams fight?

Prophet led the Friday prayer, why didn't our Imams lead? (Except for Imam Ali -a- who had the chance)

Sunna is to follow the Prophet (s) whenever possible; politically it was impossible for the Imams to declare their successors "publicly" because in that case, the ruler of time would kill them both on basis of being outlaws.

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Sunnat = Do as Prophet does.

Mohammad s.a.w.w. publicly declared Ali as his successor. So does Ali to Hasan, and likewise Hasan to Hussain, Hussain to...... These are not 'qayas', but are facts documented by everyone in all sects for all past years.

 

The fact that declaration happened several times does not make it necessary but rather it only indicates that declaring was possible at that time therefor Imams used this way as  a normal method beside there is no need for finding declaration from the eleventh Imam since it was declared by prophet several times e.g.the Ghadeer hadith

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Yes, there is a book by shaykh al-Mufid, called: al-Irshad that narrated the (private and inner-community) declarations of the Imamate of the Imams.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Irshad_fi_ma%27rifat_hujaj_Allah_%27ala_al-%27ibad_(book)

It's the book itself:

http://lib.eshia.ir/27035/1/1

Sunna = following the Prophet (s) in his practices

Prophet fought with pagens, why didn't our Imams fight?

Prophet led the Friday prayer, why didn't our Imams lead? (Except for Imam Ali -a- who had the chance)

Sunna is to follow the Prophet (s) whenever possible; politically it was impossible for the Imams to declare their successors "publicly" because in that case, the ruler of time would kill them both on basis of being outlaws.

 

Brother Mesbah,

 

None of your two link above tells: If Imam Hasan Askari in presence of his missionaries / trusted people, also with physical presence of his son Mohammed declared that after him his this son Mohammed will be next Imam.

 

Until the existing authority will not categorically and physically point out who his Imamate successor is until then how the common Shia's can know about the successor. A guess can never take place of facts. Facts is only what existing Imam declares whether in big public gathering or small missionaries gathering.

 

Declaration of successor is of paramount importance and what makes me wonder is neither Osool-a-Kafi nor Baqir Majlisi nor any other important source speaks about this issue!!!!!!

 

In reference to the Sunnat of Prophet s.a.w.w. (Gadeer-a-Khum) - Many of things we practice that was practiced too by Prophet. Other things that we practice was not practiced by Prophet, and few others are the things that Prophet practiced and we do not practice. Common things that was practiced by Prophet and we too practice have to be done the way Prophet does. Like we should do 'Som' (fasting) the way Prophet did, we should offer 'Salaat' (namaz) the way Prophet did, etc. The declaration of successor was categorically done and the issue was not left to guess-work. The public declaration is so important that if it is not done then Allah warned "O' Mohammad your all services as Prophet will go waste." Hence, the declaration of successor - if it is done then it has to be the way that Prophet s.a.w.w. did. 

 

All the Imams have clearly and loudly declared their successor in the presence of the successor and in presence of witness and in presence of their missionaries/trusted personal. But this was not the case with Imam Hasan Askari!!!! Why there is mismatch? This is all I am trying to get answers.

The fact that declaration happened several times does not make it necessary but rather it only indicates that declaring was possible at that time therefor Imams used this way as  a normal method beside there is no need for finding declaration from the eleventh Imam since it was declared by prophet several times e.g.the Ghadeer hadith

How will we know who (which individual) is that person to whom the Prophet s.a.w.w. has referred as the 12th Imam until the 11th Imam verify and signal out to us - that that is the person referred by Prophet s.a.w.w.?

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brother did you read the "content" part of wikishia article? and the second link is in arabic, can you read arabic?

the twelfth section of the book al-irshad has some subdivisions, one of which is titled: 

 

فصل في نص الأئمة ع على إمامة المهدي ع جملة و تفصيلا

chapter on the declaration of the Imamate of   Imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã explicitly and implicitly by the Imams Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

the other subdivision is titled:

 

باب ذكر من رأى الإمام الثاني عشر ع و طرف من دلائله و بيناته‏

chapter on people who saw Imam al-Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and a few of his evidences and proofs (for Imamate)

next chapter is titled:

فصل شذرات من معاجز الإمام المهدي و دلائله‏

chapter on some of the miracles of Imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

 

in al-Kafi vol. 1 p.328, there is chapter called:

بَابُ الْإِشَارَةِ وَ النَّصِّ إِلَى صَاحِبِ الدَّارِ ع‏

chapter on the explicit and implicit mention of the Imamate of Imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

 

one of many narrations in these chapters is as follows:

 

 عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْكُوفِيِّ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْمَكْفُوفِ عَنْ عَمْرٍو الْأَهْوَازِيِّ قَالَ: أَرَانِي أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ ابْنَهُ وَ قَالَ هَذَا صَاحِبُكُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِي.

ja'far b. Muhammad b. al-Ma'kuf narrated from 'amr al-ahwazi who said: Imam abu Muhammad (al-'askari) showed me his son and said: he is your Sahib (Imam) after me.

 

in bihar al-anwar, vol.51 p.158 there's a section called:

 

باب 10 نص العسكريين صلوات الله عليهما على القائم ع‏

chapter 10, on the declaration of Imamate of Imam al-Qa'im by 'askariyyan, ( Imam Hadi and Imam Hasan al-'askari)

now who says?

 

 neither Osool-a-Kafi nor Baqir Majlisi nor any other important source speaks about this issue!!!!!!

 

brother it is not very easy to make decisive judgment before knowing how to read arabic.

 

 

 

All the Imams have clearly and loudly declared their successor in the presence of the successor and in presence of witness and in presence of their missionaries/trusted personal. But this was not the case with Imam Hasan Askari!!!! Why there is mismatch? This is all I am trying to get answers.

 

tell the person who made this question to prove this mismatch, with sources. 

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(1) Was Al Mufid 'masoom'? No. Was his work vouched by Imam Mahdi (Imam of his time)? No. Is he subject to all human errors, bias, etc? Yes. So to rely on Al Mufid as the primary source to prove "Nuss-a-Jali" by Imam Hasan Askari to Imam Mahdi is in itself a weak premise.

 

(2) With whom I am discussing the issue of Imamat she says, "There are two types of 'Nuss': (1) Nuss a Khafi and (2) Nuss a Jali, former is secretly/privately said and latter is publicly declared. Example) Every time Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. declared Mola Ali a.s. as his successor before the event of Gadheer-a-Khum it was 'nuss-a-Khafi' (indicative declaration of successor) however, nuss-a-khafi is insignificant as Allah told to Mohammed s.a.w.w. that should you not declare Ali's nomination publicly (nuss-a-Jali) then all work of Prophethood will go waste. Despite Prophet s.a.w.w. declaration of secret/private 'nuss' on Ali several time before Gadheer event still Allah consider all work of Prophet as waste until the public declaration (nuss-a-jali) is not made. My friend further says, that even in work of Al Mufid there is no tradition that says about 'nuss-a-Jali' by Imam Hasan Askari to Imam Mahdi. (Nuss-a-Jali = In presence of both Imam Hasan Askari & Mohammed, in the gathering of most of the missionaries of Hasan Askari, he point towards Mohammed and declare him that after him he is the next Imam.)

 

(3) Al Mufid writings are IMPLICITLY proving the Imamate of Imam Mahdi. But there is no EXPLICIT tradition that says that Imam Hasan Askari made the 'nuss-a-Jali' over Imam Mahdi.

 

(4) You say, “Ishaara” (indication) is given in Osool-a-Kafi, but you see Sunni too says Prophet s.a.w.w. did “ishaara” (indicated) that Abu Bakr is the next authorized person – do we accept such indications? No. So “ishara” (indications) given in Osool-a-Kafi on Imamat is not akin to the facts of having ‘nuss-a-jali’ done by Imam Hasan Askari to Imam Mahdi.

 

(5) She further says, Bakir Majlisi categorically said, that majority of traditions in 'Osool-a-Kafi' are fake/false! So traditions in reference to indications on Imamat are true or false are marked with doubts!

 

(6) She further says, "Walayat" of Mola Ali a.s. is the single most important matter for any Shia but there is not even one chapter on Walayat in Osool-a-Kafi. So one cannot even remotely expect this book to validate the declaration of next Imam by Imam Hasan al Askari.

 

(7) The chain of narrators 'raawi' quoted in Osool-a-Kafi most of them have names of enemy of Shia Imams. We proudly says that unlike Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim our book of traditions Osool-a-Kafi is distinct as it quotes Shia's narrator than Sunni's. However, the Kafi was collected 200 years after the death of Imam Hussain a.s. and all the then Shia knew of the tragic event of Karbala. So any true Shia will not keep the name of their wards in the name of 1/2/3, Mawiya, Yazeed, Hurmula, Shimr, etc - but many-many of the narrator in Kafi have these names - how can they be Shia's?!!! 

 

(8) Osool-a-Kafi is the only tradition book to be vouched by the Imam Mahdi (a masoom) - but see the state of affairs of this book in point# 4, 5, 6 & 7 - no where does it proves the ‘nuss-a-jali’ done by Imam Hasan Askri to Imam Mahdi!

 

(9) In event like marriage at least two male witness or four female witness are required. The matter of Imamate is much supreme than matter of marriage. She says, I assume that you have quoted the best example from Bakir Majlisi, so this best example speaks of just one witness! It may be consider as 'nuss-a-khafi' but certainly not 'nuss-a-Jali' this proves there is no tradition proving the 'nuss-a-jali' even in work of Bakir Majlisi.

 

(10) To conclude: There are NO reliably categorical, clear and loud tradition that proves Imam Mahdi was declared next Imam by Imam Hasan Askari by mean of ‘nuss-a-jali’.

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How will we know who (which individual) is that person to whom the Prophet s.a.w.w. has referred as the 12th Imam until the 11th Imam verify and signal out to us - that that is the person referred by Prophet s.a.w.w.?

Strange!! How would you identify who is Ali to whom the Prophet referred ? When he names his successors he would give traits. He would specifies that Mahdi is the son of Hassan and he is the son of Ali and so on till Imam Ali therefor it is made clear Who the twelfth is

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Landmarks. And by the star they are guided.

Nahl 16

 

By the name of Allah, the Rahman, the Raheem.

The Quran illustrated an example of the amounts of mercy from Allah upon His servants. To guide them through earth, to direct them to north,south, east or west, Allah created landmarks on land and landmarks in skies.

How important is human guidance to gates on earth in comparison to human guidance to heaven gates? Ahlulbayt said that that is the deeper meaning of the verse. Allah is merciful to humans and did not let them get lost while traveling and seeking their needs on earth, similarly, Allah is merciful to humans and did not let them get lost while seeking Him, His path and His accepted religion.

Ahlulbayt said :Aalamat/Landmarks are the Imams and Najm/Star is the Prophet. Through them we get guided.

 

Prophet and Imams left many pointers to the right path, to their path and their who will carry on their message.

First, those who shall guide us should be ahlulbayt and the proof for this is obvious for any Shia man.

Secondly, Those who shall guide us should be from the line of the As'habul Kisa

Thirdly, Mehdi is from the line of Imam Husain.

Fourth, Mehdi should be a descendant  from Imam : a- because Imamah is running from father to son

                                                                                                        b-because the earth shall never be devoid of an Imam/ landmark

Fifth, believing in Imamah is essential even if you don't know the imam. An Abbasid governor asked one of Imam Sadiq companions "What shall you do if your Imam died without hearing from him about his successor?" The companion answered " We shall believe that there is from his progeny an Imam and this belief shall suffice"

 

Sixth, The hadiths about the number of Imams or the successorship of each one of them or the hadiths about Imam Mahdi have covered many aspects of the Imamah doctrine. If you studied them as a whole, instead of this microscopical view, you'd find them pointing to the 12th of them being our current Landmark to the right path.

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I think you shouldn't have started the debate with a person who knows arabic while you don't know it; because she obviously has easy access to shia-sunni tradition and thus the upper hand.

however, addressing your questions:

1- all hadith collectors were scholars and not infallible Imams. authenticity is completely different than infallibility.

2- first of all it is: Nass نص second of all: there's a difference between public declaration and explicit declaration. as I said before the shift between Nubuwwa and Imamate is different than the shift from one Imam to another, especially in taqiyya. now ask her to prove the Imamate of other Imams (rather than Imam Ali a) according to her "Nuss al-jali" idea. because she said all other Imams had "public declaration". why is she always repeating the case of Imam Ali (a)? there are ten other Infallible Imams, ask her to cite their public declaration.

3- either you can't read arabic or you confused the meaning and use of the word: explicit. explicit is different than public.

4- al-Kafi title says: al-ishaara wa al-Nass الاشاره و النص, 

5- it is up to shia Rijal experts to say what book is weak or not, Majlisi himself narrated those narrations. tell her not to worry about shia sources' authenticity.

6- what is second chapter of al-Kafi? کتاب الحجه the chapter of Imam and Imamate

7- ... 

8, 9, and 10 and conclusion: study arabic language, read shia tradition especially the references I gave you.

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From the Shia point of view, the Mahdi was made known by the Prophet as well as other Imams. What wasn't made known early was the exact details of him being the 12th Imam. But there is reports of 12 Imams and 12 successors even back to the Prophet. The 12 successors being Ahlebayt and of the chosen ones, is something that the thaqalain message took care of from the Shia point of view.  Therefore all this was public, and it was known for a long time that the 12th successor would be the Mahdi.  The only thing is that was he born already to Hassan Al-askari or not. The hadiths also say the earth is never left without an Imam, and even Sahih Muslim has hadiths that Caliphate will remain in Quraysh if there are only two people left.  So by this it was necessary there be a successor. It's just a matter of looking. Also when there is a succession of Imams, people should be expecting succession and be surprised if it stops.

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Imam Mahdi (as) is Khalifa Tullah, Caliph of God (swt) , He will be announced by Angels of God. There is no need for anyone else to announce HIM (as).

 

Hadith:- " One of the reasons for the fame of Imam will be an Angel of God positioned above HIS (as) 's head will introduce (testify for) HIM as Khalifa Tullah Mahdi." 

 

So there will be no Problem in recognizing HIM (as) because the devine voice from the sky will be unrecordable  and will be understood by every one listening in his own language. So it cannot be through any technology. Don't worry.

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