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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions To The Shia.

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The questions doesn't make sense in regards to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, because he doesn't have a body for it to be somewhere. However he sees everything and is the all knowing. 

2 questions.

1.What do you mean by body?

2. If you are saying that only something with a body can exist somewhere. Then my question is How do you know that?

 

 

 

Tell me where Allah [s.w.t] is not and I will tell you where He is.

 

Why do you require me to tell you where he is not in order for you to answer my question?

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2 questions.

1.What do you mean by body?

2. If you are saying that only something with a body can exist somewhere. Then my question is How do you know that?

 

 

Why do you require me to tell you where he is not in order for you to answer my question?

 

Because Allah Swt cannot be find nowhere. Alllah is all knowing. There is not a centimeter of this Universe and other universes if they exist that Allah swt does not know of. You're question does not have the answer you want. You want us to point to coordinates and tell you that is where Allah is. As far as we know, Allah is not confined to a space. If he isn't confined to a space then your question cannot be answered.

 

But why would you ask that which you asked?

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you need to understand science in order to understand Allah.

 

Allah is power which is running and present every where....

Please elaborate.

 
 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Abu Hamza.

He said: Nafi` b. al-Azraq asked Abu Ja`far عليه السلام: Inform me about Allah – when did He come into being? So he said: [Tell me] when He did not exist, so that I can inform you when He came into being. Glory be to He who is unceasing and unhalting. The One Eternally-Besought of All, who has neither held for Himself a female companion nor a child. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 232)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr.

He said: A man came to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام from beyond the Balkh river and said: I will ask you a question, if your answer to me is the same as what which is with me [i will accept your cause]. So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Ask whatever you wish. So he said: Inform me about your Lord, when did He come into being? And how is His state? And upon what thing does He rely? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Allah تبارك وتعالى was there before there was a “there”, and He was being before there was a “how”, and His reliance is upon His power. So the man rose to him and kissed his head, and said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and that `Ali is the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the succeeding upholder of what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله established, and that you are the righteous Imams and the successors after them. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 233)

(sahih) (صحيح)

)

 

These ahadith does not answer "Where is Allah" rather its an answer to the question "When did he come into being?", "Did he come into being?", "Is he independent?". So this is not relevant to the question we asked.

 

 
And from him from Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Safwan b. Yahya from `Abd ar-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلامabout the saying of Allah تعالى, “The Gracious who is established (istawa) upon His throne” (20:5). So he said: He is established in all things, so no thing is closer to Him than any other thing. The far is not far from Him, and the near is not close to Him – He is established in all things. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 328)
 

 

Mr Qaim perhaps you could tell me what you understood from "He is established in all things"

 

 

 

And from him from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Husayn b. Sa`eed from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from `Asem b. Hameed from Abu Baseer from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Whoever alleges that Allah is from something, or in something, or upon something has disbelieved. I said: Explain to me. He said: By this I mean [the belief that] He is contained, held, or being preceded. And in another narration: Whoever alleges that Allah is from something has made Him into a creation, and whoever alleges that He is in something has made Him constrained, and whoever alleges that He is upon something has made Him carried. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 329)

 

(hasan) (حسن)

 

This hadith does not answer "Where is Allah" rather its an answer to the question "Is Allah upon Something?" "Is Allah in something?" So this is not relevant to the question we asked.

So the question still remains. Where is Allah? If you'r answer is "He is established in all things" then please elaborate.

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@Repentant

 

 

 

Because Allah Swt cannot be find nowhere.

What do you mean by nowhere?

 

 

 

Alllah is all knowing. There is not a centimeter of this Universe and other universes if they exist that Allah swt does not know of.

How is that relevant?

 

 

 

You want us to point to coordinates and tell you that is where Allah is. 

2 questions. 

1.How do you know thats what i want?

2. Does something need a coordination in order for it to be somewhere? If yes then my follow up question is "How do you know that?"

As far as we know, Allah is not confined to a space. 

 

How do you know that?

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2 questions.

1.What do you mean by body?

2. If you are saying that only something with a body can exist somewhere. Then my question is How do you know that?

 

 

1) By body I mean, that which is made of physical matter or that which can be felt by the 5 senses. 

2) I never said that only something with a body can exist somewhere. Your original question was asking where is Allah. Now, first of all, anything that exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it has to have a body. An example would be Allah (SWT), he exists, yet doesn't have a body. Therefore, since he doesn't have a body, space doesn't apply to him and thus we can't say where is Allah (SWT).

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1) By body I mean, that which is made of physical matter or that which can be felt by the 5 senses. 

Where is the soul? Are angels made of physical matter? And where are the angels?

 

 

2) I never said that only something with a body can exist somewhere. Your original question was asking where is Allah. Now, first of all, anything that exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it has to have a body. An example would be Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, he exists, yet doesn't have a body. Therefore, since he doesn't have a body, space doesn't apply to him and thus we can't say where is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

 

How do you know space does not apply to something that does not have a body? Also what do you mean by space? Does something that exists outside the universe occupy space?

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Come on RationalDeen, you can do better than that. Shia Islam's tawhid is the purest of the pure. For people like you to call us imam worshipers, and shirk do'ers, you can do better than these silly questions. Lets not ask irrational questions that contradict an absolute God.

Edited by PureEthics
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(salam)

 

We humans with our limited knowledge cannot understand Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is unlimited. He does not have a physical body, but is present everywhere. 

If we ascribe earthly or physical attributes to Allah(SWT), it will make Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì limited.

Edited by The Light
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Once, a man came to (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, saying, ‘Tell me about your Lord. When did He come into existence?’ The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Woe upon you! Such a question is asked only about a thing that did not exist. My Lord, all Glory belongs to Him, exists and will exist eternally. He lives and no How question applies to Him. He did not have any coming into existence and nor was there any being for His coming into being. This does not apply to Him; He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. He did not become stronger after making all things nor was He weak before giving being to the beings. He was not lonely before His inventing all things. He is not similar to anything that could be called a thing. He was also not without a Kingdom before the creation nor will He be without it after all things. He lives eternally without life and was the powerful King before His invention of the things and He is an all-powerful King after the creation of all things. To His existence no How or Where question is applicable. There is no limit for Him nor is He definable by analogy. He does not become old due to eternal living. He does not become alarmed because of anything but that all things are fearful of His (disappointment). He lived without newly emerging life. He is not a describable being or that can be limited with conditions or may have a space to depend on. He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something. He is living and one can know Him. He is the eternal King. He has the power and the kingdom. He has created all that He wanted and when He decided by His will. He cannot be limited. He cannot be divided or destroyed. He was before everything but no How question would apply to Him. He will be the last but no Where will apply to Him. All things will be destroyed except He. The creation belongs to Him and His is the command. He is the Holy Lord of the worlds. ‘O inquirer, imaginations cannot encompass my Lord and He does not face any confusions or bewilderment. Nothing is able to reach Him and nothing happens to Him. He cannot be held responsible for anything and He does not become regretful. Neither slumber nor sleep overcomes Him. To Him belong all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth and all that is between them and under the soil.’”

I love this Hadith, Ahumdulillah.

There was one more hadith which goes like this,

Once an angel came from the heaven to hazrat Musa(as), and said I brought a message from Allah, in the mean while an Angel came from the west, he also stated the same, then an angel came from the east, he also stated he was with Allah. Then Hazrat Musa(as) said, 'something' which meant Allah is every-here.

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@FisherKing

 

 

He is present everywhere. Just not physically.

A few questions.

What do you mean by Physically?

What is the difference between being physically present and being present?
How do you know he is present everywhere?

Is God’s essence present everywhere?

Is he equally present everywhere if yes then is he equally as much in hell as he is in Heaven?

 

------

 

@Qaim

 

We can't answer on Allah's "location". He is not a body, nor is He a spirit.

 

A few questions.

What do you mean by spirit?

How do you know Allah is not a spirit?

Does something have to be either a body or a spirit in order to have a place/location? If yes then my question is “How do you know that”?

 

He is not closer to one thing and further to something else

 

Please elaborate.

Also how do you know that?

 

So you're asking questions that are not meant to be answered, because as soon as you can imagine Allah, you have limited Him to your brain's understanding of something far superior to its abilities.

 

How is imagination related to the question?

 

All the knowledge(excluding a priori), beliefs and ideas that we have stored in our mind, comes through sensation. Our imagination is limited to these. You cannot imagine a (new)color you have not seen. Now.

 

32:17 No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

 

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". (xxxii. 17)  (Sahih Muslim)

 

You can reject the second Hadith if you like. As i know you are not a big fan of Abu huraira. However the aya remains. You have no knowledge of the reward. Which also means you cannot imagine this reward as you have not obtained any data similar to it through your senses.

 

Does this mean we cannot ask “where is this reward?”, as it cannot be imagined?

 

My third(and fourth) question here is: How do you know you cannot question the location of something that cannot be imagined? How do you know something does not have a location if it cannot be imagined. What about the angels, the soul, devils, jinns and spirits?

 

Tawhid at its purest is to know when to stop speculative discussion.

 

 

How do you know we have reached a speculative step?

 

Here are some hadiths that may help you understand our position  O Abu Hamza, Allah cannot be described by limitations. Our Lord is above description, so how could the infinite be described by the finite?

 

 

Does Allah exist? Is existence part of his Essence? If so then you have described your Lord.

Also what do you understand from limitations? Can attributes be finite and infinite? If so then is your Lord still above descriptions when they are infinite? Or is it limited to finite descriptions only?

 

I will wait for you answer. However.

 

Seeing as the Hadith would contradict itself, as it uses the word infinite(a description for God), it would only make sense if description here refers to the finite.

And i doubt your answer would contradict mine.

 

In light of this analysis i ask.

 

Can infinity be described with where?

 

If you say No then: How do you know tat?

If you say Yes then: Where is Allah?

If you say say place is limited to space and time then: If something exists outside of space and time, outside the universe and is transcendent. Then its location would be outside the universe. So if x is infinite and x exists outside the universe then the answer to where is x would be “Outside the universe”.

 

Also the hadith says “so how could the infinite be described by the finite?”.  This is refuted by the fact that we can define infinite with words that are finite.

 

 

Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan from Hammad b. `Isa from Rab`i b. `Abdullah from al-Fudayl b. Yasar.  He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Verily Allah is not described.  And how would He be described while He has said in His book “And they do not measure Allah with His true measure” (39:67).  So He is not described with a measure but that He is greater than that. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 276)

(majhool kal-sahih) (مجهول كالصحيح)

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن ابي عمير عن أبي أيوب، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا محمد إن الناس لا يزال بهم المنطق حتى يتكلموا في الله فإذا سمعتم ذلك فقولوا: لا إله إلا الله الواحد الذي ليس كمثله شئ.   `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from Abi Ayyub from Muhammad b. Muslim. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: O Muhammad, mankind do not cease from rationalization (mantiq) [even] until they talk about Allah. So when you hear that, then say: There is no god except Allah, the One whom there is nothing like unto Him. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 246) (hasan) (حسن)

 

 

 

It seems like Ja'far al Sadiq is talking about describing Allah with finite description here as well. Or else there would be a contradiction. As “There is no god except Allah, the One whom there is nothing like unto Him. “ Is a description. So these ahadith are not relevant in this case.

 

Seeing Him is impossible, for there must be air (hawa’) between the perceiver and the perceived, or his sight will not be operational.

 

Does air exist in the afterlife? If yes then my question would be: how do you know? If no then my question would be: Will you be able to see anything in the afterlife. If the answer you give is “I don't know” then my question would be: Are you equally uncertain that you will see anything in the afterlife?

 

---

 

@PureEthics

that contradict an absolute God.

How do you know it contradicts an absolute God?

 

---

@eThErEaL

Where is the center point of a circle?

 

 

The definition of a cicle is: a round figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of points equidistant from a fixed point (the center).

 

A circle has an centerpoint by definition. Just as an triangle has three angles and three straight sides per definition.

 

Your question is equivalent to asking how tall is the straight sides of the triangle.

 

Why are you assuming the circle is somewhere on a plane of coordinates?

 

 

To measure requires the circle to exist somewhere on a plane of coordination. Unless your circle exists in your mind or in some platonic worlds of forms.

 

Now my question is: How is this relevant to the topic?

 

----

 

@The Light

We humans with our limited knowledge

 

What do you mean by limited knowledge?

 

He does not have a physical body, but is present everywhere.

 

A few questions.

 

What do you mean by “present everywhere?” Is he equally present everywhere if yes then is he equally as much in hell as he is in Heaven? Does one require a physical body in order to be somewhere if yes then my question is: Does the soul have a physical body? Where is the soul? Do angels have a physical body? Where are the angels?

 

If we ascribe earthly or physical attributes to AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

 

What do you mean by earthly or physical attributes? Do you and God have similiar attributes? Do you exist, and does God exist? Does another category besides earth or physical exists? If so how do you know “Where?” doesnt fall under that category?

 

---

 

@lordofgemini

 

 

Once, a man came to (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, saying, ‘Tell me about your Lord. When did He come into existence?’ The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Woe upon you! Such a question is asked only about a thing that did not exist. My Lord, all Glory belongs to Him, exists and will exist eternally. He lives and no How question applies to Him. He did not have any coming into existence and nor was there any being for His coming into being. This does not apply to Him; He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. He did not become stronger after making all things nor was He weak before giving being to the beings. He was not lonely before His inventing all things. He is not similar to anything that could be called a thing. He was also not without a Kingdom before the creation nor will He be without it after all things. He lives eternally without life and was the powerful King before His invention of the things and He is an all-powerful King after the creation of all things. To His existence no How or Where question is applicable. There is no limit for Him nor is He definable by analogy. He does not become old due to eternal living. He does not become alarmed because of anything but that all things are fearful of His (disappointment). He lived without newly emerging life. He is not a describable being or that can be limited with conditions or may have a space to depend on. He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something. He is living and one can know Him. He is the eternal King. He has the power and the kingdom. He has created all that He wanted and when He decided by His will. He cannot be limited. He cannot be divided or destroyed. He was before everything but no How question would apply to Him. He will be the last but no Where will apply to Him. All things will be destroyed except He. The creation belongs to Him and His is the command. He is the Holy Lord of the worlds. ‘O inquirer, imaginations cannot encompass my Lord and He does not face any confusions or bewilderment. Nothing is able to reach Him and nothing happens to Him. He cannot be held responsible for anything and He does not become regretful. Neither slumber nor sleep overcomes Him. To Him belong all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth and all that is between them and under the soil.’”

 

 

 

First i ask for the reference and the tashih.

 

There is a lot in here that is not relevant to the topic. As for the relevant part, this is what i saw.

 

“He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. “

 

To His existence no How or Where question is applicable.

Imam Baqir says no how questions is applicable for him yet he answers “How God is”.  “He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something.” “He lived without newly emerging life.” “He is living” So in light of these description, the questions must be concerning matters that would limit God.

 

The hadith seem to suggest that God does occupy some form of space

 

He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. “

 

So now my question besides “Where is Allah?” is also “Where is this Space?”

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(salam)

 


A few questions.

What do you mean by spirit?

How do you know Allah is not a spirit?

Does something have to be either a body or a spirit in order to have a place/location? If yes then my question is “How do you know that”?

 

A spirit is a non-physical conscious creature, and in Islamic metaphysics, the spirit still functions within space and time. Meaning, a spirit can leave one place and go to another place (example: from the body to outside of the body). Because it is able to move from space to another, and since it can be comprehended by sight (albeit not human sight), and since all spirits are ultimately created things, they cannot be God.

 

As for your fourth question, would you consider heat/energy, electricity, and magnetic fields to be physical things? If yes, then they too are ultimately "created" (in that they have an origin or a source), and they too are bound by space and time. And Allah is unlike all things, because He is by definition unlimited, unbound by any thing, and the uncaused cause.

 


Please elaborate.

Also how do you know that?

 

Because if He were closer to one thing than another, He would presumably be three-dimensional being, and to put Allah in a dimension is to place Him inside a created thing. Moreover, if God had a certain measurable distance from you, then the two of you would share the same setting/atmosphere/realm/dimension, and the Qur'an teaches that Allah is completely unlike all things (Surat 112).

 


How is imagination related to the question?

 

Because if He were in a place, and we were to build theories on His place, then we would have limited Him.

 


32:17 No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

 

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". (xxxii. 17)  (Sahih Muslim)

 

You can reject the second Hadith if you like. As i know you are not a big fan of Abu huraira. However the aya remains. You have no knowledge of the reward. Which also means you cannot imagine this reward as you have not obtained any data similar to it through your senses.

 

Does this mean we cannot ask “where is this reward?”, as it cannot be imagined?

 

We cannot imagine Paradise because it is unlike anything we have seen or thought of, but once a person enters Paradise, his thoughts would be able to comprehend it. However, Allah is unlike all things we have seen, and unlike all things we have not seen and will never see. At no point will our thoughts or our sight be able to comprehend God and His place.

 


How do you know we have reached a speculative step?

 

Once you begin coming to conclusions that you are unsure of, or have no failsafe support for, you have speculated. The only reason why I haven't asked you your own question ("where is God?") is because I know you cannot establish a definite answer to this question, and I would not put my brother in a position where he would need to speculate.

 

Does Allah exist? Is existence part of his Essence? If so then you have described your Lord.

 

To say He exists is not "limiting" Him. Rather, saying He does not exist would be categorically untrue (and therefore limiting Him to nonexistence).

 


It seems like Ja'far al Sadiq is talking about describing Allah with finite description here as well. Or else there would be a contradiction. As “There is no god except Allah, the One whom there is nothing like unto Him. “ Is a description. So these ahadith are not relevant in this case.

 

The infinite can be described as infinite, but it cannot be mapped out, analyzed, imagined, seen, and assessed.

 

Does air exist in the afterlife? If yes then my question would be: how do you know? If no then my question would be: Will you be able to see anything in the afterlife. If the answer you give is “I don't know” then my question would be: Are you equally uncertain that you will see anything in the afterlife?

 

The hawa' here is not referring to oxygen, it is referring to aether, which is is the hypothetical "space" between different things. Imam al-Hadi (as) is saying, in order for a creature to see Allah, there would need to be aether between the creature and Allah. You would need to have a shared setting with Allah in which you would be able to see him. And, you'd need to be able to distinguish Him from yourself and from your surroundings. However, to say that you and Allah share a setting is tashbeeh, and Allah is above all of that.

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The definition of a cicle is: a round figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of points equidistant from a fixed point (the center).

A circle has an centerpoint by definition. Just as an triangle has three angles and three straight sides per definition.

Your question is equivalent to asking how tall is the straight sides of the triangle.

To measure requires the circle to exist somewhere on a plane of coordination. Unless your circle exists in your mind or in some platonic worlds of forms.

Now my question is: How is this relevant to the topic?

----]

(Bismillah)

(Salam)

Although it can be "represented" graphically, the center point cannot be measured at all because the center point is dimensionless (this is what a point is). The center point is equally spread throughout the entire circle because each part of the circle is what it is insofar as it is seen in relation to the center. The center of the circle is everywhere and yet nowhere. In the same way, God is everywhere and yet nowhere. God is the center of existence. He is the center of each and every thing.

And yes, you being a "rationalist" will either, not understand what I am saying, or will dismiss what I am saying as mere poetry.

Edited by eThErEaL
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Where is the soul? Are angels made of physical matter? And where are the angels?

 

 
 

How do you know space does not apply to something that does not have a body? Also what do you mean by space? Does something that exists outside the universe occupy space?

Look brother, let me pose you a question.

 

As a muslim don't you believe that Allah (SWT) created everything that exists besides him? This includes even space and time. And that he was there before anything else was created? Now, how could we say that he is somewhere, when he was existing before that somewhere even came to existence?

We can't, and therefore, we are only left with concluding that he is not somewhere, rather he is outside everything ie. time, space and other dimensions.

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السلام على من اتبع الهدى

My questions are to the shia here. According to you'r beliefs. Where is Allah ?

(salam)

As I found you are a knowledgeable man allhamdulellah, very precise and intellectual. the topic you opened is really one of the most ambiguous issues throughout the history even before Islam. so many philosophical and theological debates have been taken place concerning this concept. and there are not still a clear cut declaration about it. we as a Shia believe that our Imams using the divine knowledge Allah S.W.T bestowed have enlightened upon this problem as much as it was possible.

as they say in a tradition:

 

جَمَاعَةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: مَا كَلَّمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص الْعِبَادَ بِكُنْهِ عَقْلِهِ قَطُّ وَ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِنَّا مَعَاشِرَ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ أُمِرْنَا أَنْ نُكَلِّمَ‏ النَّاسَ‏ عَلَى‏ قَدْرِ عُقُولِهِمْ.

 

Imam Sadeq A.S says: prophet Muhammad has not talked to the people according to the level of his intellect and said we, the prophets are required to speak to the people as they understand.

 

thus I think it would be fair to put their words and saying( recently mentioned by Brothers in this thread) concerning your question in this way.

this is the way that Allah it self did in Quran ascribing himself and his position in this world. If you want to put such controversial concepts upon the Shia you first should criticize the Quran it self:

If you don't mind I would like to know your opinion about these verses: 

 

 

هو معکم اینما کنتم 

and He is with you wherever you may be, and Allah sees best what you do.(57: 4 )

 

 

 مَا يَكُونُ مِن نجَّْوَى‏ ثَلَاثَةٍ إِلَّا هُوَ رَابِعُهُمْ وَ لَا خَمْسَةٍ إِلَّا هُوَ سَادِسُهُمْ وَ لَا أَدْنىَ‏ مِن ذَالِكَ وَ لَا أَكْثرََ إِلَّا هُوَ مَعَهُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كاَنُواْ

There is no secret talk among three, but He is their fourth[ companion ], nor among five but He is their sixth, nor less than that, nor more, but He is with them wherever they may be.(58:7)

what kind of companionship Allah means? is it spiritual or physical?

 

هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَ الاَْخِرُ وَ الظَّاهِرُ وَ الْبَاطِنُ  وَ هُوَ بِكلُ‏ِّ شىَ‏ْءٍ عَلِيمٌ(3)

He is the First and the Last, the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of all things.(57: 3 )

 

 

اللَّهُ‏ نُورُ السَّماواتِ وَ الْأَرْضِ

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.(24:35)

 

وَ اعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَحُولُ‏ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَ قَلْبِهِ وَ أَنَّهُ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ

Know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that toward Him you will be mustered.(8: 24 )

 

 

just recall questions you raised about having plane in coordinates! this the Quran what would be the view of Sunni scholar regarding such verse??

 

come on dear brother, it is kind of immature thinking to imagine a physical place for God upper than the visible sky, of course this question that where is God does not make sense for the wise and discerning Islamic scholars as you see God S.W.T him self and the Imams the great leaders of community have not given a tangible physical answer in this regard. so we must stop here. not to go further. and try to as much as detailed understand what they meant by such true deep statments.

 

but let us know if there are any statements interpenetrating these verses by Sunnis from the very beginning I mean the three Khalifs up to now?

I hardly confess I want to hear in this regard form them specially three khalifs and four Imams including Imam Hanba, Abu Hanife, Shafeii, Malik  ??

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Salam. Here's an excerpt from the Sermon #1 in Nahj al Balagha;

 

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

 

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

 

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: ‘In what is He?’, held that He is contained; and whoever said: ‘On what is He?’, held He is not on something else.

 

He is a Being, but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.

.../...

 

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described

 

 

And this is from Sermon #152

 

Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation, of His being eternal through the newness of His creation, and through their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him. Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited and the Sustainer and the sustained.

 

He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ, is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.

 

He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered. .../...

 

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-Allah-who-is…

 

Also, please see page #6 and onwards in this article to study the subject further; "God in shia Islamic traditions"

 

http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/41-God.pdf

 

ma salam

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@Qaim

 

 

A spirit is a non-physical conscious creature, and in Islamic metaphysics, the spirit still functions within space and time. Meaning, a spirit can leave one place and go to another place (example: from the body to outside of the body). Because it is able to move from space to another, and since it can be comprehended by sight (albeit not human sight), and since all spirits are ultimately created things, they cannot be God.

 

We agreed Allah is non physical. And i doubt you dispute his consciousness. But the word creature is confusing. As creature usually refers to animals or imaginary being. So Please explain what you mean by creature.

 

My Second question is: Can a spirit exist outside time and space. If No then the question would be “How do you know that” if Yes then the question would be What is the difference between God and Spirit besides the Spirit being created?

 

Also. you said.

 

since it can be comprehended by sight (albeit not human sight)

 

 

3 Questions

How do you know that?

What sight are you referring to?

 

Also

 

Can Allah perceive and comprehend himself through his sight?

 

 

would you consider heat/energy, electricity, and magnetic fields to be physical things?

 

 

 

By Physical means something, relating to the body as opposed to the mind or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind.

 

Heat and Magnetic fields are energy as for electricity is matter that carries energy

 

 

If yes, then they too are ultimately "created" (in that they have an origin or a source), and they too are bound by space and time.

 

 

 

I dont see how this is relevant to what i asked?

 

Does something have to be either a body or a spirit in order to have a place/location?

 

Let me make it more simply.

 

Can something be neither body nor spirit and still occupy space? If you say No, then i ask “How do you know that?”

 

Because if He were closer to one thing than another, He would presumably be three-dimensional being, and to put Allah in a dimension is to place Him inside a created thing.

 

 

 

By please elaborate i meant. Please explain what “He is not closer to one thing and further to something else” means exactly.

 

As for if he was closer to one thing than another that would be true if we are talking about our universe. However how do you know the same applies outside the universe? Are the angels three-dimensional beings? Is the Soul a three-dimensional being? If you say yes, then my question would be “How do you know that?” If you say No then Allah can be closer to one thing than another and yet he would not be inside a created thing.

 

if God had a certain measurable distance from you, then the two of you would share the same setting/atmosphere/realm/dimension

 

,

 

Do the angels have a certain measurable distance from us? Does the soul have a certain measurable distance from you?

Wouldn't you agree something requires a shape, an outline for it to be measurable?

 

Because if He were in a place, and we were to build theories on His place, then we would have limited Him.

 

 

How is that relevant to what i asked?

 

You said

 

So you're asking questions that are not meant to be answered, because as soon as you can imagine Allah, you have limited Him

 

 

My question has nothing to do with imagination or building theories. You can say Allah exists without imagining Allah or building theories about his existence. Likewise you can do the same with the question “Where is Allah?”

 

We cannot imagine Paradise because it is unlike anything we have seen or thought of, but once a person enters Paradise, his thoughts would be able to comprehend it.

 

 

Yes but that is once he enters the paradise. As of now, it is impossible for you to imagine the reward, yet you know the place of the reward. So imagination is irrelevant to “where”. I think you would agree on that.

 

At no point will our thoughts or our sight be able to comprehend God and His place.

 

 

So Allah has a place but you don't know where it is as you cannot comprehend it?

 

Like the rivers of paradise.

 

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. 2:25

 

Rivers flow due to gravity. But does gravity exist in heaven? Newtons law of universal gravitation two bodies in the universe attract each other with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Is this the reason why the rivers flow? We cannot comprehend these heavenly rivers and which laws they follow. However even if we cannot comprehend them we still know where they are. The same goes for paradise, we cannot fully comprehend it but we know some of what it contains due to revelation.

 

Likewise even if you cannot comprehend Allah, and his place, you can still answer “Where is Allah?”.

 

My last question regarding this for now is. Can you know the place of Allah through revelation?

 

Once you begin coming to conclusions that you are unsure of, or have no failsafe support for, you have speculated.

 

 

That is not entirely true. Building theories is not the same as speculating. But we have done neither so far.

 

As of now you been kind enough to answer me, however your answers contain knowledge claims. The definition of knowledge is justified true belief. I am simply trying to see if you have any knowledge of what you are saying.

 

The only reason why I haven't asked you your own question ("where is God?") is because I know you cannot establish a definite answer to this question, and I would not put my brother in a position where he would need to speculate.

 

 

How do you know i cannot establish a definite answer to this question? Asking me the question will not answer my question. As you just made a knowledge claim that you have yet to justify.

 

To say He exists is not "limiting" Him. Rather, saying He does not exist would be categorically untrue (and therefore limiting Him to nonexistence).

 

 

That does not matter. You are still describing him, by saying he exists. Existence is an attribute. However according to the hadith he is above descriptions.

 

The infinite can be described as infinite, but it cannot be mapped out, analyzed, imagined, seen, and assessed.

 

 

That doesnt matter. You admit the infinite can be described with finite words. The hadith says “so how could the infinite be described by the finite?”.  This is refuted by the fact that we can define infinite with words that are finite (as you just did).

 

Also you did not answer my question(s).

 

Can infinity be described with where?

 

If you say No then: How do you know tat?

If you say Yes then: Where is Allah?

If you say say place is limited to space and time then: If something exists outside of space and time, outside the universe and is transcendent. Then its location would be outside the universe. So if x is infinite and x exists outside the universe then the answer to where is x would be “Outside the universe”.

 

The hawa' here is not referring to oxygen.

 

 

Air is more nitrogen than oxygen but that is irrelevant as i never claimed air in this hadith refers to the invisible mixture of gases surrounding the earth.

 

 

The hawa' here is not referring to oxygen, it is referring to aether, which is is the hypothetical "space" between different things. Imam al-Hadi is saying, in order for a creature to see Allah, there would need to be aether between the creature and Allah. You would need to have a shared setting with Allah in which you would be able to see him. And, you'd need to be able to distinguish Him from yourself and from your surroundings. However, to say that you and Allah share a setting is tashbeeh, and Allah is above all of that

 

 

 

Aether was a theoretical substance that was suppose to explain how light travels. Which was refuted by Albert Michelson. Seeing as no such substance exists and yet we are able to see and to distinguish. I would say this hadith has no relevance to the topic at hand and also that you need to find a different interpretation for it but thats besides the point.

 

So the question still remains. Where is Allah?

---

@eThErEaL

 

Although it can be "represented" graphically, the center point cannot be measured at all because the center point is dimensionless (this is what a point is). The center point is equally spread throughout the entire circle because each part of the circle is what it is insofar as it is seen in relation to the center. The center of the circle is everywhere and yet nowhere. In the same way, God is everywhere and yet nowhere. God is the center of existence. He is the center of each and every thing.

 

And yes, you being a "rationalist" will either, not understand what I am saying, or will dismiss what I am saying as mere poetry.

 

 

If by center you mean the middle point of a circle equidistant from every point on the circumference. Then the center has a fixed point, it is not everywhere and nowhere at the same time, nor is it dimensionless.

 

If that is not what you mean by the center. Then define what you mean by the center.

 

Once we are clear on the terms we will move to God.


SlaveOfAllah14

 

SlaveofAllah please answer my questions.

 

Where is the soul? Are angels made of physical matter? And where are the angels?

 

As a muslim don't you believe that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì created everything that exists besides him?

 

Depends what you mean by “besides him”.

 

This includes even space and time.

 

If by Space and time you mean that which is within the universe. Then a where that is outside the universe does not require space and time.

 

Now, how could we say that he is somewhere, when he was existing before that somewhere even came to existence?

 

Let us investigate this.

 

Do you believe the names of Allah are created? Do you believe the attributes of Allah are created?

 

If you say yes then several problems will arise and we will address them when they come.

 

If you say no then i will simply say this.

 

Names and Attributes are designations. If the names and attributes of Allah are eternal and uncreated that means designations are eternal and uncreated, which means the idea/concept of designations and descriptions are eternal and uncreated. Since God has a number of names and attributes, as The Weak is not one of his names, that means he has a number of attributes. Which also means numbers are eternal and uncreated.

 

Since for Allah (swt) to be eternal and uncreated and have attributes and names at the same time, everything else that follows from that must be eternal and uncreated. Likewise as his Existence is eternal and uncreated, his place is eternal and uncreated.

 

, rather he is outside everything ie. time, space and other dimensions.

 

Then his place would be, “outside” the universe. Can we agree that this place is eternal and uncreated? We can move towards this direction once you have given me answer to my questions.

 

---

@mahdi servant. 01

 

Asalam Alaikum. Thank you for the warm greetings

 

this is the way that Allah it self did in Quran ascribing himself and his position in this world. If you want to put such controversial concepts upon the Shia you first should criticize the Quran it self.

 

I did not understand what you meant. So i marked the confusing part in red. As for my question i do not find it to be a controversial concept at all. As for the Quran then i believe the Quran gives the clearest answer to where Allah is.

 

and He is with you wherever you may be, and Allah sees best what you do.(57: 4 )

 

First we need to quote the full verse. As you took it out of context.

 

It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.

 

”He is with you wherever you are here refers. He is with you wherever you are refers to his knowledge. If you did had read the verse in context you would have seen that.

 

So this beautiful verse does not answer. “Where is Allah”.

 

There is no secret talk among three, but He is their fourth[ companion ], nor among five but He is their sixth, nor less than that, nor more, but He is with them wherever they may be.(58:7) what kind of companionship Allah means? is it spiritual or physical?

 

You took this verse out of context as well.

 

Have you not considered that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is on the earth? There is in no private conversation three but that He is the fourth of them, nor are there five but that He is the sixth of them - and no less than that and no more except that He is with them [in knowledge] wherever they are. Then He will inform them of what they did, on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, of all things, Knowing.

 

This verse is also talking about Allah’s knowledge. So it does not answer “Where is Allah”.

 

 

 

هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَ الاَْخِرُ وَ الظَّاهِرُ وَ الْبَاطِنُ  وَ هُوَ بِكلُ‏ِّ شىَ‏ْءٍ عَلِيمٌ(3)

He is the First and the Last, the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of all things.(57: 3 )

 

 

اللَّهُ‏ نُورُ السَّماواتِ وَ الْأَرْضِ

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.(24:35)

 

وَ اعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَحُولُ‏ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَ قَلْبِهِ وَ أَنَّهُ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ

Know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that toward Him you will be mustered.(8: 24 )

 

 

 

These verses as well do not address “Where is Allah”

 

a physical place.

 

What do you mean by physical. Would something outside the universe fall under “physical”?

 

You see God S.W.T him self and the Imams the great leaders of community have not given a tangible physical answer in this regard.

 

I would disagree. I would say God has given an answer. But that is besides the point as i my question is directed to the shia.

 

It seems like you went off on a tangent talking and you did not answer the question “Where is Allah”? i will simply ask you the question.

 

“Where is Allah?”

 

----

HamzaTR

 

Salam. Here's an excerpt from the Sermon #1 in Nahj al Balagha

 

Walaikum salam Hamza. Please answer the question, instead of passing out links. Also if you want to quote material please comment on your understanding of the material you quote. Jazak Allah khair.

 

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

 

He is a Being, but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.


 

Please explain what you understood from this. Also explain what you understand from the word attribute in this sermon.

 

He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him

 

Is this “He” limited to humans? If yes then i simply say this. You dont have to answer my question from your own understanding inspired from yourself, rather you can answer me from revelation. If you say No then another question comes to mind. Can Alllah describe himself without limiting himself? Can Allah answer “where?” without bounding himself?

 

As for “He who said "how" sought a description for Him” earlier in the same sermon we do see a description for Him. “He is One”

 

Also, please see page #6 and onwards in this article to study the subject further; "God in shia Islamic traditions"

 

http://www.messageof....com/41-God.pdf

 

If there is something relevant there that is related to the question “Where is Allah” then please quote it here, and comment on it, and we can take it from there.

 

Also you did not answer the question. Where is Allah?

 
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This will be my last post on this thread. Our Imams have taught us to not engage in jidaal, and not to speculate on Allah's essence. If you're curious to know about our views on tawhid, I have translated all of the reliable translations from al-Kafi's Book of Monotheism. You can find that here: http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi

 

 

 

We agreed Allah is non physical. And i doubt you dispute his consciousness. But the word creature is confusing. As creature usually refers to animals or imaginary being. So Please explain what you mean by creature.

 

A creature is a living, created thing from the khalq.

 

 

 

My Second question is: Can a spirit exist outside time and space. If No then the question would be “How do you know that” if Yes then the question would be What is the difference between God and Spirit besides the Spirit being created?

 

The examples of "spirit" in Islamic metaphysics are souls, angels, and jinn, and all of these are creatures that move from point A to point B. If spirits are created, then God cannot be a spirit, because then He would resemble His creation. Much like how God cannot be made of flesh and blood. God having a physical or spiritual form is tashbeeh. Moreover, He does not "move".

 

 

 

How do you know that?

What sight are you referring to?

 

 

Because the prophets saw angels and they saw jinns, and because presumably, we would see them in the hereafter. Sight can comprehend spirits, but sight cannot comprehend God - according to the School of Ahl al-Bayt (as).

 

 

 

Can Allah perceive and comprehend himself through his sight?

 

Allah can perceive and comprehend His essence through His vision, but His vision by definition is unlike the sight of His creatures.

 

 


I dont see how this is relevant to what i asked?

 

Does something have to be either a body or a spirit in order to have a place/location?

 

Let me make it more simply.

 

Can something be neither body nor spirit and still occupy space? If you say No, then i ask “How do you know that?”

 

It is relevant because energy is neither body nor spirit and, in a way, can still occupy space.

 

By please elaborate i meant. Please explain what “He is not closer to one thing and further to something else” means exactly.
 

As for if he was closer to one thing than another that would be true if we are talking about our universe. However how do you know the same applies outside the universe? Are the angels three-dimensional beings? Is the Soul a three-dimensional being? If you say yes, then my question would be “How do you know that?” If you say No then Allah can be closer to one thing than another and yet he would not be inside a created thing.

 

 

 

 

 

Because if Allah were a measurable distance away from one thing, then He would be contained within a dimension, and it may imply that He had a certain shape or a certain size. All dimensions are created thing, and Allah cannot be "contained" (refer back to the hadiths).

 

As for souls and angels being three dimensional beings, we don't have that information. It is plausible that they are on a higher dimension that we cannot currently perceive or imagine.

 

As for your comment on God being "outside of the universe", I have no reason to comment on that because I do not know that nor should I speculate on that lest I limit Him. Are you Muslim? Do you really believe your mind can grasp the Unlimited?

 

 

 

Do the angels have a certain measurable distance from us? Does the soul have a certain measurable distance from you?

Wouldn't you agree something requires a shape, an outline for it to be measurable?

 

The Qur'an and hadiths talk about souls entering our bodies, leaving our bodies, angels descending from higher heavens to lower heavens, the Qur'an being lowered on the Night of Qadr, jinn ascending to the heavens, Iblis being kicked out of Paradise, so yes, the spirits are bound by distance and time, albeit we cannot independently measure that distance or that time without being able to observe them.

 

 

 

My question has nothing to do with imagination or building theories. You can say Allah exists without imagining Allah or building theories about his existence. Likewise you can do the same with the question “Where is Allah?”

 

And I told you that your question was invalid, because He was "there" before there was a "where", To say that He is "somewhere" is limiting Him, no matter how you answer it. If you say He were "everywhere", then that would be a pantheistic statement, which would by extension not distinguish Allah from all created things, when Allah is clearly as-Samad. If you say He was "inside of the universe", then He would be contained in His creation, bound by space and time, and bound by a dimension and shape. If you say He was "outside of the creation", then you have defined a place where God was absent and therefore limited Him to an area. Our Prophet (pbuh) and our Imams have not told us "where" Allah is, but rather they have only defined Him - that He is one, unlike all things, incapable of limiting Himself, the originator and the sustainer of all things, with no body, just, and merciful, etc. He can be defined in this way, but He cannot be "described" in the way that you are looking for. Read the Qur'an, and read the narrations on the link I've provided - beyond that, there's little we can say. These posts take a lot of time, they draw no absolute conclusions, and asking too much will get you into a territory that you were not meant to.

 


محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين عن الحسن بن علي بن يوسف بن بقاح عن سيف بن عميرة، عن إبراهيم بن عمر قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: إن أمر الله كله عجيب الا انه قد احتج عليكم بما قد عرفكم من نفسه.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Yusuf b. Baqqah from Sayf b. `Umayra from Ibrahim b. `Umar.

He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام say: The issue of Allah is wholly extraordinary, yet He has only demanded from you what He has made you know in your selves. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 228)


(sahih) (صحيح)

Edited by Qa'im
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@Qaim

 

This will be my last post on this thread. Our Imams have taught us to not engage in jidaal, and not to speculate on Allah's essence. If you're curious to know about our views on tawhid, I have translated all of the reliable translations from al-Kafi's Book of Monotheism. You can find that here: http://www.imamiyya....adith/usul-kafi

 

I am simply interested in the answer to “Where is Allah” from a Shiite.

 

A creature is a living, created thing from the khalq.

 

Very good.

 

The examples of "spirit" in Islamic metaphysics are souls, angels, and jinn, and all of these are creatures that move from point A to point B. If spirits are created, then God cannot be a spirit, because then He would resemble His creation.

 

Is the spirit a spirit because it is created, or does all examples of spirits happen to be created?

 

There is no need to indulge in your understanding of Islamic Metaphysics. A simply definition in this case for Spirit would be a non physical being.

 

I have problem with you calling the soul a “creature” of its own, but that is not relevant.

 

Would the definition i gave for spirit apply to God?

 

If yes then we can go from there. If no please tell me another category besides physical and non-physical.

 

He does not "move".

 

How do you know that?

 

Because the prophets saw angels and they saw jinns, and because presumably, we would see them in the hereafter.

 

Did the Prophets see them because their sight is different than ours? Or because the spirit had the ability to manifest itself in a visible form?

 

If the latter. Then how do you God cannot manifest himself in a visible form?

 

Also can God make it such that the finite might perceive him? Or is that to much for an Infinite God?

 

Allah can perceive and comprehend His essence through His vision, but His vision by definition is unlike the sight of His creatures.

 

Then there is no difference between a Spirit and God. Besides the fact that spirits are created. Also that Allah is higher on the pyramid of perceivableness as one requires prophetic vision to see spirits while to see Allah requires divine vision.

 

Because if Allah were a measurable distance away from one thing, then He would be contained within a dimension

 

That is true in our universe yes. However how do you know the same applies outside the universe where space and time might not exist?

 

As for souls and angels being three dimensional beings, we don't have that information. It is plausible that they are on a higher dimension that we cannot currently perceive or imagine.

 

If you don't know if the angels are three dimensional being. Then can angels and souls be closer to one thing than another? If you don't know the first can you really know the latter?

 

As for your comment on God being "outside of the universe", I have no reason to comment on that because I do not know .

 

So you don't know where your Lord is?

 

Are you Muslim? Do you really believe your mind can grasp the Unlimited?

 

From my own, no. Through revelation i can know facts about the unlimited. If you couldn't know facts about the unlimited, then how can you say God exists? How do you know that God exists?

 

Likewise through revelation one can know where God is.

 

The Qur'an and hadiths talk about souls entering our bodies, leaving our bodies, angels descending from higher heavens to lower heavens, the Qur'an being lowered on the Night of Qadr, jinn ascending to the heavens, Iblis being kicked out of Paradise, so yes, the spirits are bound by distance and time, albeit we cannot independently measure that distance or that time without being able to observe them.

 

The Quran and ahadith also talks about Allah rising over his throne, the angels acending to him, God raising up Jesus to himself, Allah descending to the lowest heaven and so on.

 

If you don't understand the verses regarding Allah then how come you understand those talking about spirits and souls? If you do tawil to those regarding Allah why dont you do the same for those regarding the spirits and souls?

If your mind can't grasp spirits, and your mind can't grasp God. I don't see why you use different methodologies to understand them from the Quran. As the door for tawil is open for you. And you dont know the ontology of spirits, how do you know the Quran isn't using metaphors to explain souls the same way you believe it uses metaphors for God?

 

So i ask again.

 

Do the angels have a certain measurable distance from us? Does the soul have a certain measurable distance from you?

 

And I told you that your question was invalid, because He was "there" before there was a "where"

 

How do you know the where is not eternal and uncreated?

 

Just as i investigated with slaveofAllah14

 

Let us investigate this.

 

Do you believe the names of Allah are created? Do you believe the attributes of Allah are created?

 

If you say yes then several problems will arise and we will address them when they come.

 

If you say no then i will simply say this.

 

Names and Attributes are designations. If the names and attributes of Allah are eternal and uncreated that means designations are eternal and uncreated, which means the idea/concept of designations and descriptions are eternal and uncreated. Since God has a number of names and attributes, as The Weak is not one of his names, that means he has a number of attributes. Which also means numbers are eternal and uncreated.

 

Since for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to be eternal and uncreated and have attributes and names at the same time, everything else that follows from that must be eternal and uncreated. Likewise as his Existence is eternal and uncreated, his place is eternal and uncreated.

To say that He is "somewhere" is limiting Him,

 

You have yet to demonstrate how that is so.

 

If you say He were "everywhere", then that would be a pantheistic statement, which would by extension not distinguish Allah from all created things, when Allah is clearly as-Samad. If you say He was "inside of the universe", then He would be contained in His creation, bound by space and time, and bound by a dimension and shape.

 

Very correct. I agree. However it seems like you're saying he is no-where as he is to greate to be somewhere. He is either some-where or no-where. If your saying he is not some-where then your saying he is no-where which would be atheistic.

 

If you say He was "outside of the creation", then you have defined a place where God was absent and therefore limited Him to an area.

 

If you're not a pantheist. Then by definition you accept that there exists a place where God is absent.

 

God nature is eternal and is not contingent upon anything. If you view it as a limitation to say God is within the universe, then your saying God is contingent upon the universe, and God's nature is subjective to Change. As God occupies more Space the more space he creates.

 

Rather God is where he was before he created the universe.

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I had like to ask you two questions because i see a deep rooted problem(no offense). And I had like to investigate.

1) Where is A place where Allah isn't present?

2) Where is Allah? (According to you)

 

Please Answer my Questions

 

First i ask for the reference and the tashih.

 

There is a lot in here that is not relevant to the topic. As for the relevant part, this is what i saw.

 

“He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. “

 

To His existence no How or Where question is applicable.

Imam Baqir says no how questions is applicable for him yet he answers “How God is”.  “He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something.” “He lived without newly emerging life.” “He is living” So in light of these description, the questions must be concerning matters that would limit God.

 

The hadith seem to suggest that God does occupy some form of space

 

He was not in anything or on anything nor did He invent any space for His own space. “

 

So now my question besides “Where is Allah?” is also “Where is this Space?

 

 

 

1) Where is A place where Allah isn't present?

2) Where is Allah? (According to you) 

 

Are you unable to answer my question with me answering it first?

 

Once you give me the answer to my question. Where is Allah. I will gladly answer you.

 

As for.

 

 

 

Where is A place where Allah isn't present?

What do you mean by present?

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