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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions To The Shia.

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“And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame.” (Quran 15:17-18)

The Prophet also said: “They (the Jinn) would pass the information back down until it reaches the lips of a magician or forrtune-teller Sometimes a meteor would overtake them before they could pass it on. If they passed it on before being struck, they would add to it a hundred lies” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

Seems like heaven is right up there?

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@Muhammad Ali

 

 

 

Allah would be a mere concept if Allah did not exist. Not if he did not have existence as an attribute.

That is the same thing. If Allah did not exist=If he lacked the attribute of existence.

 

 

 

If you have an idea of a thing which does not exist, then if the object of that concept came into existence, nothing would be added to the concept (unless we change the concept).

Existence would be added to the concept.

 

 

If you have an idea of a thing which does not exist, then if the object of that concept came into existence, nothing would be added to the concept (unless we change the concept). Real existence is not added to concepts to make them into real things. Rather, things are made to exist and the thing remains a separate entity from the concept. There is a difference between the idea of a thing that does not exist and the idea of that same thing but with the addition of the notion that it does exist. Maybe we could say existence can be a conceptual predicate but is not a sufficient reason for us to call it a real predicate. 

 

if he lacked existence then he would not exist. If he does exist then the concept of him also continues to exist. The concept does not transform into a real thing with the addition of existence. Existence is not added to concepts to make them real. Concepts remain in the mind of the thinker of those concepts. They do not leave the mind and become external existents with the addition of existence.

 

 

What is the difference between an conceptual object and a real object. What is it that separates the real from the conceptual. If nothing is added to a thing when it comes into existence, then that thing is no different when it real or conceptual. Rather it is the attribute of existence that separates the two. Existence is a predicate. As you have conceptual existence and you have actual existence.

 

The rejection of existence as a predicate usually comes from the critiques of the ontological argument. Seeing as how there are different types of existence, i would say it has to be an attribute.

 

Reading from a mushaf is considered a good deed even if a person has memorised the text. The Ayatullahs are unlikely to show off their memorisation in public displays. 

Not in prayer.

 

 

We wouldn't know that the sunni sheikhs are huffadh if it wasn't for taraweeh (or the type of eye-witness evidence which you may reject for the shia scholars). 

 

 

I simply asked you which ayatu is a hafiz. As i see the greatest of the greatest Ayatus are unable to recite Fatiha properly, how i suppose to believe the less great ayatus are hufadh. If i am not mistaken, didnt Khamnei admit the majority of marjas are not hufadh? I might be mistaken.
 
 

 

Space is not analogous to attributes such as power and knowledge. We have reasons to believe that those can exist in immaterial forms but no reason to believe that space can exist outside of space-time. 

 

The problem of containment includes the problem of an infinite being contained. Your belief limits our Lord.

It depends what you mean by space. So lets investigate the usage of space. 

 

What do you mean by space? So i can clear some of the confusion.

Is heaven and hell within or outside of the universe? Does time exist in heaven and hell? If i were to ask you where are the angels, would outside of the universe be a valid answer?

 

As for a problem of limits. If you don't accept that Allah exists outside the universe in a manner that fits him. And your saying this puts a limit upon Allah. I would say a identical argument can be made for ascribing an essence/nature to God.

 

Does Allah have an eternal and uncreated nature/essence?

Is Allah Good and Just? If yes then a few simple Questions arises.   

 

The first question

 

If Allah is Good and Just does he love what is Good and Just?

 

If yes then:

 

Does Allah love the good(just) because it is Good(or just)? Or is it Good(or just) because Allah loves it?

 

If you answer choose the first answer then my question is simply this. What is it that determines that something is Good(or just) or evil(or unjust) as it is not God that does. Also as God is Good(or just) then whatever determines Good(just) and Evil(unjust) has to be above God as God adheres to its scale of Good and Evil or Just and Unjust.

 

If you choose the second answer then the questions are simply this.

 

If God is what decides what is Good and evil o. Then how can you say God is Good? That would be the same as saying depth is deep, or length is lengthy, or height is high.  

 
If you say loving and deciding is not the same and i changed the term then my question is simply this. What is it that made God love that thing, if you say his nature then why does his nature love that thing?. 
 
The second question
 
If God is Good and Just as that is part of his nature then the second question would simply be this.
 
Can God be unjust or is that an impossibility for him? If it is an impossibility then we have a limited Lord.
 
If God can be unjust then i will go on to ask a few simply question.
 
What distinguishes God's justice from Injustice? There must exist a barrier where one side would be just and the other unjust, and this barrier would put an limitation to God and his action as it would not be God but the barrier that decides whether the action is just or unjust.
 
Also if you ascribe a nature to God, the omnipotence and omniscience  would be qualities of God or else God would already be limited if he wasn't omnipotent and omniscient.
 
So my question is
Is God Omnipotent and Omniscient?
Can God created Human being with freewill while knowing their every action from the point they are born until the point they die?
If yes then i simply ask this.
God know every action we will do before he creates us, that means he know whether we are going to hell or heaven, as he is omnipotent he can create us in a manner where we would end up in heaven or in a manner where we would end up in hell.
So that means the only way you can have free will is if God is not omniscient.
Likewise between selecting a Coke and a Pepsi. God would know which one you would select, if you select a Pepsi then God could have created you in a manner where you would have selected the Coke instead, but he created you in a manner where you chose the Pepsi. So in reality you had no free will.
 
Also as he is omnipotent, could God make it such that you wouldn't believe that you exist? Or more clear. Could God make it such that you wouldnt believe you are experiencing? If yes then how would you believe without experiencing as believing is an experience in it self.
 
So your argument against place can be used against just about anything related to God.
 
So if you ascribe a nature to God, you have limited our Lord.
 

 

This is in reference to your numbering of the attributes as a proof for the eternity of numbers.

 

Does God have an infinite number of attributes?

If Yes. Then my question is simply this.

Is The evil, The Weak, The Dumb, The Blind, The Queen and so on part of God's attributes?

Are the Just and the unjust both part of God's attributes

 

If no then he has to have a number of attributes. And therefore numbers have to be eternal if the attributes are eternal.

 

 

The attributes of Allah are the same as him. They are not separate things that "follow" from his essence.

 

 

How so? 
Does God have names?
If Yes then what do you mean by names?
If by names you mean that which one is  known, addressed, or referred to, in other words an designation. Then God is named those names. And they in themselves are not God.
If God is named his names. Then Allah did not name himself, yet they follow from his existence. And they are eternal and uncreated.

 

 


 

1, If a person cannot bring evidence that heaven in the universe, it doesn't mean that heaven is not in the universe. Your whole argument rests upon the assumption that heaven is not in the universe.

 

 

 


 

No problem i dont need heaven and hell.
 
The throne that is upon the water.
 

on the authority of Abu al-Sait 'Abd al-Salam ibn Salih al-Hirawi

Al Ma'mun asked Abu al-Hasan 'Ali ibn Musa a;-Rida  (as) about the Word of Allah, the Mighty the High: And he it is who created heavens and the earth in six days, and His throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is best in action. [Qu'ran 7:173] He thus, replied,'Verily, Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, created the throne, the water, and the angels before the creation of heavens and earth. (Kitab al Tawhid Ibn Babawayh Ch49)

 

 
وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ11:7

 

 
 
 
1. Where is the water?
2. Is it valid  when asked "where is the throne" the throne is upon the water.?
If yes then we are using the where in the same sense 
 
 
Instead of focusing on the example given, you should focus on the point the example emphasises on.
A person can answer "I don't know" to your initial question.

 

A person can answer "i dont know" when asked where is Allah aswell. If he attacks the validity of the question he should point out why this question is not valid aswell.

 

 

 

Heaven may not be in this physical universe but it may be in another one.

It would still be outside this universe.

 

 

 

The descriptions being used seem to indicate a spacial-temporal world.

And so are the attributes of Allah, and the nature of Allah.

 

---

lordofgem

“And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame.” (Quran 15:17-18)

The Prophet also said: “They (the Jinn) would pass the information back down until it reaches the lips of a magician or forrtune-teller Sometimes a meteor would overtake them before they could pass it on. If they passed it on before being struck, they would add to it a hundred lies” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)


Seems like heaven is right up there

 

 

There is no up And down in Space.

 

You are giving a very earthly interpretation to the verse and hadith. As you have never observed a spirit, you cannot understand what pass, up and down really means when it comes to the trancedental. You accept the apparent meaning without kayfiyyah

Edited by RationalDeen
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The second question
 
If God is Good and Just as that is part of his nature then the second question would simply be this.
 
Can God be unjust or is that an impossibility for him? If it is an impossibility then we have a limited Lord.
 
 

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

"if it is possible for God to be unjust? We know that injustice stems from ignorance, need, weakness or similar causes, none of which can exist in God. If we seek to find the cause of injustice, we may find the following reasons:

 

1. Ignorance:

People sometimes commit injustice out of ignorance. At times, injustices stem out of man's limited and finite knowledge. For example, a judge can unjustly pass a sentence against an innocent person because he does not know the truth or because the truth was hidden from him.

2. Need:

Injustice sometimes takes place when a person cannot get what he needs by proper means.

3. Weakness or Compulsion:

Sometimes, people commit injustice because of weakness and compulsion. For example, after much struggling, when a person cannot get his rights from an unjust person, he is, sometimes, led to extremes and does anything he can to bring that person down. The deprivation of that person becomes a pretext for violence and crime.

These and similar causes of injustice are impossible for God, because He is Omniscient, Free from need, and Omnipotent. So He is incapable of any injustice. This is a very clear and obvious matter. Those who doubt the justice of God have not considered what we have explained, or else they do not understand what justice is."

http://www.al-islam.org/islam-faith-practice-history-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/lesson-7-justice-god

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

"if it is possible for God to be unjust? We know that injustice stems from ignorance, need, weakness or similar causes, none of which can exist in God. If we seek to find the cause of injustice, we may find the following reasons:

 

1. Ignorance:

People sometimes commit injustice out of ignorance. At times, injustices stem out of man's limited and finite knowledge. For example, a judge can unjustly pass a sentence against an innocent person because he does not know the truth or because the truth was hidden from him.

2. Need:

Injustice sometimes takes place when a person cannot get what he needs by proper means.

3. Weakness or Compulsion:

Sometimes, people commit injustice because of weakness and compulsion. For example, after much struggling, when a person cannot get his rights from an unjust person, he is, sometimes, led to extremes and does anything he can to bring that person down. The deprivation of that person becomes a pretext for violence and crime.

These and similar causes of injustice are impossible for God, because He is Omniscient, Free from need, and Omnipotent. So He is incapable of any injustice. This is a very clear and obvious matter. Those who doubt the justice of God have not considered what we have explained, or else they do not understand what justice is."

http://www.al-islam.org/islam-faith-practice-history-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/lesson-7-justice-god

That question was part of a system of questions.

 

However you did not answer the question.

 

Can Allah be unjust if he wants to?

 

Its a simply Yes or No.

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How can Allah be unjust if he himself is Justice?

Answer the question. Dont answer with a question. If he himself is Justice then you would have to answer another question in the system of questions.

 

 

If God is what decides what is Good and evil o. Then how can you say God is Good? That would be the same as saying depth is deep, or length is lengthy, or height is high.  

 
If you say loving and deciding is not the same and i changed the term then my question is simply this. What is it that made God love that thing, if you say his nature then why does his nature love that thing?.

 

 

If God is justice, then how can you say God is just?

 

 

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(salam)

 

You can keep asking a series of questions pertaining to the nature of god, but like finding the edges of a circle, you will get nowhere.

 

If god is "good" but created "evil" how is he still good?

 

Humans were made with the essence of Allah, that is what differentiates us from animals, we have a sense of good and evil right and wrong, etc.

 

If I give you a child one scoop of ice cream and another child 2 scoops of ice cream. Any simple minded child or sane human would think that unfair, unjust. Why? Is it nature? Or is it essence of God?

 

God made us with qualities that are similar to his own, and the best of his creations Prophets and Imams live up to that potential.

 

Distinguishing evil from good right from wrong.

 

We all know lying is wrong, but we still do it? We know backbiting is wrong? Who decides what is and what isn't right. If it is nature then you have to come up with an explanation as to why giving 2 scoops of ice cream to the second child is unfair to the first.

 

There is no explanation there is an internal feeling of unfairness. The same "feeling" we have is what god Allah decided, decided what is good and what is evil.

Edited by AFA_pride
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Humans were made with the essence of Allah, that is what differentiates us from animals, we have a sense of good and evil right and wrong

Animals have a sense of right and wrong.

 

Also a question arises from what you just said. What do you mean by right? Also what is the difference between Good and right.

 

As for us" human being made with the essence of Allah" How do you know that?

 

 

 

If I give you a child one scoop of ice cream and another child 2 scoops of ice cream. Any simple minded child or sane human would think that unfair, unjust. 

 

Why is it unfair and unjust?

 

 

 

We all know lying is wrong, but we still do it?

How do you know lying is wrong?

 

We know backbiting is wrong? 

 

How do know backbiting is wrong?

 

Your questions and arguments were loaded with assumption i am sorry to say.

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Animals have a sense of right and wrong.

 

Also a question arises from what you just said. What do you mean by right? Also what is the difference between Good and right.

 

As for us" human being made with the essence of Allah" How do you know that?

 

Do they? Can they distinguish an evil action from good?

 

Can you look at a person and tell whether or not they are good or bad?

 

If you can't then you must blame nature for not allowing you to.

If you can then you must blame god for giving you the ability to do what you are trying to disprove.

 

 

Why is it unfair and unjust?

How do you know lying is wrong?

We don't know that these are wrong. Who tells us? You are arguing nature. You can't back up why people believe what they do based all on logic. That is why Allah/God exists. To create a sense of being otherwise we'd call ourselves human doings.

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@AFA_Pride

 

Do they? Can they distinguish an evil action from good?

 

Can you look at a person and tell whether or not they are good or bad?

 

If you can't then you must blame nature for not allowing you to.

If you can then you must blame god for giving you the ability to do what you are trying to disprove.

 

For animal morality here is an good article for you to read http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/morality_animals

 

Also you did not answer my question.

 

I asked you.

 

What do you mean by right? Also what is the difference between Good and right.

 

Once we have established definitions we will move to your question.

 

We don't know that these are wrong.

 

Then why did you assume we did?

 

 

We all know lying is wrong, but we still do it? We know backbiting is wrong?

 

 

 

You are arguing nature. You can't back up why people believe what they do

 

Your text wasn't clear. I am unsure what you are trying to say. “Arguing nature people believe what”

 

Maybe you can try again. Also hopefully this time you will answer my question so we can go further into this investigation of ours.

 

If you are trying that we have an innate moral sense. Then i don't see how you include God into the picture.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQUxmJR9a5Y

 

However all of this with Nature( human morals and animals) is irrelevant to the topic at hand.



 

Edited by RationalDeen
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OK,

To answer your questions

Difference between right and good.

Good is objective in the sense that it has an obvious positive effect on someone/something

Right is subjective in the sense that it is morally acceptable. Just like your video link.

Essentially good refers more to a well-being or helpful idea

Whereas right can have variation of what a human feels is morally correct/incorrect

Example:

It might be good for a country to get rid of immigrants to improve education & economics but it may be wrong(not right) to move hard working people out of the country after their many years of service and residence.

I assume you're human before I assume anything else. If you plan to reject everything I say this will be a fruitless intellectual waste of time.

You are correct regarding the animals perhaps I should have used intellect instead of morals as the key that distinguishes us from them. So we can drop that argument.

As far as nature goes. Do humans innately decide that lying is bad. Let's just say for the sake of argument that yes lying is bad and we as humans decided that. Who out of us would decide that. The first human to think of such an idea would have to get it from somewhere. This is what I was referring to as the essence of Allah you can call human nature essence of Allah.

Example: giving someone a hug is a sign of affection, but if we all as a society decided that now hugging people means you hate a person it would be universal. So why hasn't that happened why is it that since the beginning of time everything that was considered human nature has not changed.

I know you already know the answer and you are challenging yourself and others: Where is Allah?

Allah is the entire existence so there cannot be a question of where or when? He simply IS

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@Repentant

What do you mean by nowhere?

How is that relevant?

2 questions.

1.How do you know thats what i want?

2. Does something need a coordination in order for it to be somewhere? If yes then my follow up question is "How do you know that?"

How do you know that?

maybe nahjul balagha sermon 1 would be helpful?
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(salam)
(bismillah)

 

Here is a Saheeh hadith from our books that answers the batil question about where is Allah. This hadith should be enough to show how batil this question is according to Shee`ah Islam

 

حدثنا أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال جاء قوم من وراء النهر إلى أبي الحسن ع فقالوا له جئناك نسألك عن ثلاث مسائل فإن أجبتنا فيها علمنا أنك عالم فقال سلوا فقالوا أخبرنا عن الله أين كان و كيف كان و على أي شي‏ء كان اعتماده فقال إن الله عز و جل كيف الكيف فهو بلا كيف و أين الأين فهو بلا أين و كان اعتماده على قدرته فقالوا نشهد أنك عالم
(Rough Translation) From Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr said, 'A group from across the river came to Abu al-Hasan (as), and they said to him, 'We would like to ask you three question, if you can answer us about it,then we will know you are our `Alim.' So he (as) said, 'Ask'. They said: 'Inform us where is Allah? How he is? And upon which thing does He depend?' So he (as) said: 'Verily Allah is a how's how for He is without a How, and a where's where for He is without a where, and He depends upon His Qudra.' So they said: 'Verily we testify that you are an `Alim'
 
قال مصنف هذا الكتاب يعني بقوله و كان اعتماده على قدرته أي على ذاته لأن القدرة من صفات ذات الله عز و جل 
The compiler of this book (al-Saduq) said: The meaning of his (as) saying 'And He depends upon His Qudrah', means upon His essence, because al-Qudrah is from the siffaat of Allah (عز و جل)
Source:
al-Saduq, al-Tawhid, pg. 125, hadith # 3
Grading:
Hadi al-Najafi said this hadith has a Saheeh Sanad
--> Mawsoo`ah Ahaadeeth Ahl al-Bayt, vol. 9, pg. 88
 
Commentary of this hadith:
I say: 'When the questioner asked about a thing which He depended (or, relied) upon, and there was not that thing. His intention (as) by this saying is that there is not a thing that he depends (or, relies) upon, because his Qudrah is not a thing from the things, like He, the Most High, is not a thing like things. And it is mentioned in some narrations this clear denial, that he is not upon a thing and that he does not depend (or, rely) upon a thing'
Source:
Sa`eed Muhammad b. Muhammad al-Qummi (d. 1107), Sharh Tawheed al-Saduq, vol. 2, pg. 395
 
 
(salam)
Edited by Nader Zaveri
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@AFA

 

To answer your questions

Difference between right and good.
Good is objective in the sense that it has an obvious positive effect on someone/something
Right is subjective in the sense that it is morally acceptable.

 

I am sorry but your explanation just made no sense. Maybe you can try again.

 

I tell you what. Just define both of them. What do you mean by right, and what do you mean by good.

 

 

 

Essentially good refers more to a well-being or helpful idea
Whereas right can have variation of what a human feels is morally correct/incorrect

Example:
It might be good for a country to get rid of immigrants to improve education & economics but it may be wrong(not right) to move hard working people out of the country after their many years of service and residence.

It seems like you are heavily confused about the word good. As you committed a logical fallacy known as fallacy of Equivocation. The word good has several meanings. When yous say "it might be good  for a country" the meaning of good here is "benefit or advantage to someone or something" however we were talking about good and evil where good refers to "that which is morally right".

 

 

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument

No we cant just say that for the sake of argument. You have to first to tell me how we know lying is bad/evil, then you will have to prove that humans have an innate ability to decide such.

 

 

 

Allah is the entire existence

Do you mean Allah is everything? As in Wahdat ul Wujood?

 

@Rohani

 

maybe nahjul balagha sermon 1 would be helpful? 

 
 

Not at all. It does not answer any of the questions, rather it brings more questions. And we have addressed it atleast twice in this thread.

 

 

 

Please explain what you understood from this. Also explain what you understand from the word attribute in this sermon.

 

He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him

 

Is this “He” limited to humans? If yes then i simply say this. You dont have to answer my question from your own understanding inspired from yourself, rather you can answer me from revelation. If you say No then another question comes to mind. Can Alllah describe himself without limiting himself? Can Allah answer “where?” without bounding himself?

 

As for “He who said "how" sought a description for Him” earlier in the same sermon we do see a description for Him. “He is One”

 

Maybe you can tell me dear mina what you understood from Attributes. As Ali does attache attributes to him in the same sermon. Attributes such as

 

His Oneness, His Omnipotence and  Almighty.

 

 

 

 

(salam)
(bismillah)

 

Here is a Saheeh hadith from our books that answers the batil question about where is Allah. This hadith should be enough to show how batil this question is according to Shee`ah Islam

 

حدثنا أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال جاء قوم من وراء النهر إلى أبي الحسن ع فقالوا له جئناك نسألك عن ثلاث مسائل فإن أجبتنا فيها علمنا أنك عالم فقال سلوا فقالوا أخبرنا عن الله أين كان و كيف كان و على أي شي‏ء كان اعتماده فقال إن الله عز و جل كيف الكيف فهو بلا كيف و أين الأين فهو بلا أين و كان اعتماده على قدرته فقالوا نشهد أنك عالم
(Rough Translation) From Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr said, 'A group from across the river came to Abu al-Hasan (as), and they said to him, 'We would like to ask you three question, if you can answer us about it,then we will know you are our `Alim.' So he (as) said, 'Ask'. They said: 'Inform us where is Allah? How he is? And upon which thing does He depend?' So he (as) said: 'Verily Allah is a how's how for He is without a How, and a where's where for He is without a where, and He depends upon His Qudra.' So they said: 'Verily we testify that you are an `Alim'
 
قال مصنف هذا الكتاب يعني بقوله و كان اعتماده على قدرته أي على ذاته لأن القدرة من صفات ذات الله عز و جل 
The compiler of this book (al-Saduq) said: The meaning of his (as) saying 'And He depends upon His Qudrah', means upon His essence, because al-Qudrah is from the siffaat of Allah (عز و جل)
Source:
al-Saduq, al-Tawhid, pg. 125, hadith # 3
Grading:
Hadi al-Najafi said this hadith has a Saheeh Sanad
--> Mawsoo`ah Ahaadeeth Ahl al-Bayt, vol. 9, pg. 88
 
Commentary of this hadith:
I say: 'When the questioner asked about a thing which He depended (or, relied) upon, and there was not that thing. His intention (as) by this saying is that there is not a thing that he depends (or, relies) upon, because his Qudrah is not a thing from the things, like He, the Most High, is not a thing like things. And it is mentioned in some narrations this clear denial, that he is not upon a thing and that he does not depend (or, rely) upon a thing'
Source:
Sa`eed Muhammad b. Muhammad al-Qummi (d. 1107), Sharh Tawheed al-Saduq, vol. 2, pg. 395
 
 
(salam)

 

Similar narrations were posted by Qaim in the first post. Sadly they did not answer anything.

 

But lets examine the hadith.

 

Abul Hasan did not answer the question where is Allah. Rather he said أين الأين فهو بلا أين, so if Allah is without a where then he is no-where right?

 

As he is some-where or no-where.

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(salam)
(bismillah)

Similar narrations were posted by Qaim in the first post. Sadly they did not answer anything.

 

But lets examine the hadith.

 

Abul Hasan did not answer the question where is Allah. Rather he said أين الأين فهو بلا أين, so if Allah is without a where then he is no-where right?

 

As he is some-where or no-where.

No you are wrong. The biggest issue you had with Qa'ims post was because it didn't have the "Where is Allah", your posts are here, if you happened to forget. Now the word "Where" is used and the questioner asked the same question "Where is Allah?", the hadith is Saheeh, but you still continue to argue? It is obvious now, you never asked the question to get the answer, rather you wanted to asked the question to argue, and you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, even after your question was answered. Should I start quoting great Sunni scholars and their viewpoint of people who have such behavior? Because I can.

 

P.S. - You know, sometimes if you concede an argument, more people will respect you. And then in your future discussions if you are still arguing on a matter, you can always say "I don't mind conceding when I am wrong, as I have done on here before". Just an advice from someone who has been there before. 

 

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

No you are wrong. The biggest issue you had with Qa'ims post was because it didn't have the "Where is Allah", your posts are here, if you happened to forget. Now the word "Where" is used and the questioner asked the same question "Where is Allah?", the hadith is Saheeh, but you still continue to argue? It is obvious now, you never asked the question to get the answer, rather you wanted to asked the question to argue, and you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, even after your question was answered. Should I start quoting great Sunni scholars and their viewpoint of people who have such behavior? Because I can.

 

P.S. - You know, sometimes if you concede an argument, more people will respect you. And then in your future discussions if you are still arguing on a matter, you can always say "I don't mind conceding when I am wrong, as I have done on here before". Just an advice from someone who has been there before. 

 

(salam)

I am sorry but you hadith gave me as much answers as that of Al Qaim. You posted a hadith without giving your own understanding of it. 

 

So i asked you based on the hadith

 

Abul Hasan did not answer the question where is Allah. Rather he said أين الأين فهو بلا أين, so if Allah is without a where then he is no-where.

 

So do you agree with Abul Hasan that Allah is no-where?

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^ Actually that sums up everything you discussed.

 

I don't want to get into the details of good vs. right because it will not help you to answer the question.

 

You asked:

Where is Allah?

 

Why did you make the assumption that Shia school of thought would have a different reply. Many of the brothers/sisters have posted numerous sources both Shia and Sunni even external references including ones that you referred to.

 

What are you trying to get at?

 

Do you want location? Do you want a physical location? Are you asking to challenge yourself?

 

I have already said Allah is existence. Not exactly what you would refer to as Wahdatul Wujood because in Wahdatul Wujood everything is considered as one "being" but existence itself is Allah. What I am referring to is more of Allah being the domain of existence and everything in this world (ie. space time) are subsets of that domain. Nothing can be outside that domain, if it were how would we know.

 

I am glad you ask the questions of why and how? Perhaps if any one human was omnipotent we could answer, but everything we know is in the domain of Allah.

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Those who tend to study the surface of philosophy tend to get stuck on playing word games. If RD, had the intent to acquire the reasons of another persons belief, he would do so honestly, without the intent of deception. It would have started, with his own position of belief then ask the question, where do the others think Allah is?.

 

But the truth of the matter is, Questioning where Allah resides is futile and pointless. One, will never see their creator,  be it the material or immaterial. So why waste time on this idea of where Allah resides, unless one is projecting their own borderline atheistic notions on others who do not share their view. There is no purpose to a question, whose answer will always be inept, incorrect, opinionated and a useless injunction of words.

 

I know how very liable we are to delusion in what relates to ourselves, and also how much the judgments of our friends are to be suspected when given in our favor. Descartes

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@Afa

 

Why did you make the assumption that Shia school of thought would have a different reply. Many of the brothers/sisters have posted numerous sources both Shia and Sunni even external references including ones that you referred to.

 

 

The sources they posted not only contradict each other. But they do not answer my question of Where is Allah. Such as أين الأين فهو بلا أين tells me nothing. Rather i want the understanding of the one who brought this narrations to tell me what he understood from the ahadith, and what he thinks the answer to the question would be in light of these ahadith.

 

 

What are you trying to get at?

 

Do you want location? Do you want a physical location? 

This was addressed in post #30 and #56 If you havent read all posts then i advise you to do so before posting.

 

 

 

I have already said Allah is existence.

That does not answer the question of "where is Allah?". Nor does it tell me anything.

 

 

 

I have already said Allah is existence. Not exactly what you would refer to as Wahdatul Wujood because in Wahdatul Wujood everything is considered as one "being" but existence itself is Allah. What I am referring to is more of Allah being the domain of existence and everything in this world (ie. space time) are subsets of that domain. Nothing can be outside that domain, if it were how would we know.

You explanation tells me nothing. "We are subsets of God's existence" Would you like to try again?

 

@D3v1L

 

One, will never see their creator

 

How do you know that?

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You are asking where is Allah?

 

Maybe the best answer is that there is no answer. 6 pages of sourced answers along with logical inputs by members if it is not satisfying you then I pray for you.

 

 

I have not seen input from you, what do you honestly believe.

 

Wasalam.

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You are asking where is Allah?

 

Maybe the best answer is that there is no answer. 6 pages of sourced answers along with logical inputs by members if it is not satisfying you then I pray for you.

 

 

I have not seen input from you, what do you honestly believe.

 

Wasalam.

Only 1 member has given an answer so far.

 

 

(salam)

Allah is outside his creation(s).

(wasalam)

 

 

As for the other pages, then it is mostly single discussions with peoples objection. Once all their objections are answered they usually leave without leaving an answer.

 

 

If you have not seen what my answer is to the question. Then you must not have read all 6 pages.

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What was it, there were many. Which one satisfied you more than others.

 

and again what is YOUR belief?

 

What part of the previous post didnt you understand?

 

 

Only 1 member has given an answer so far.

 

kbsquare, on 19 Jul 2014 - 6:17 PM, said:
 

 

If you have not seen what my answer is to the question. Then you must not have read all 6 pages.

 

 

--

 

 

 

Many gave an answer, but they didnt fit in with rational deens view so he ignored them. 

 

Nobody gave an definitive and clear answer besides kbsquare. When we examined the other answers or objections, we questioned the knowledge behind them and such, during the examination of the answers or objections the one who gave them left. There is not one answer given that i have ignored. So please dear brother do not lie. Including yourself, you did not give an answer.

 

ll we know about Allah is that he is a thing, that exists No,  He exists, He does not have to be like anything else. 

 

 

 

This is not an answer to "Where is Allah".

 

And we can examine what you came with.

 

He does not have to be like anything else.

 

Does he exist?  You said yes

 

 

 

He exists

 

And you exist aswell.

 

Allah exists and you exist. Those that mean your exists is similiar to that of Allah no it does not.

 

Likewise with "Where". Either Allah is some-where or he is No-Where. My question does not presuppose knowledge, as those are the only two categories, there is no middle ground, as that would contradict the third law of logic the law of excluded middle.

What you replied with had no substance, nor was it even relevant. Which is why i didnt bother replying.

 

We addressed most objections to the question in  #30 and #56 and also in #87 abd #107. So make sure you read them before posting.

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Nobody gave an definitive and clear answer besides kbsquare. When we examined the other answers or objections, we questioned the knowledge behind them and such, during the examination of the answers or objections the one who gave them left. There is not one answer given that i have ignored. So please dear brother do not lie. Including yourself, you did not give an answer.

 

 

There were many answers given, including mine which clearly answered your question, you just either ignored them because it destroys your argument, or you become sidetracked in semantics.

 

 

This is not an answer to "Where is Allah".

 

And we can examine what you came with.

 

As I have said, the "where" of Allah limits him and likens Him to creation, as I have explained to you previously and you previously ignored, the question is improper, it is biased and implies a certain view of Allah for the question to have any meaning, which we reject. Another example of such a question is, "Where is my square triangle?" This assumes the existence of an thing, a square triangle, but the two essences are contradictory to another, so the object can not exist, so location is meaningless.  Or "where is my anger at this nonsense thread? Again by definition anger does not have a location, it can have a subject, a cause , but location is meaningless in relation to anger, or how heavy is your anger, again it assumes a property of the something similar, which it does not have. Allah does not have any similar properties, therefore these questions are all null and void.

 

 

And you exist as well.

 

Allah exists and you exist. Those that mean your exists is similiar to that of Allah no it does not.

 

 

Our existence is nothing like that of Allah, our existence is dependent on many things, his is independent of everything. There is nothing similar to Allah, even in existence.

 

 

 

Likewise with "Where". Either Allah is some-where or he is No-Where. My question does not presuppose knowledge, as those are the only two categories, there is no middle ground, as that would contradict the third law of logic the law of excluded middle.

What you replied with had no substance, nor was it even relevant. Which is why i didnt bother replying.

 

Why does Allah have to "be" somewhere or no where? This implies that Allah exists in the same way as other things, I reject this assumption.

 

Your attempt at dabbling in philosophy does not reach Allah at all, the laws of the universe apply to us and to its contents, not to Him. Let me give you an example that will show your line of thought to be wrong, is Allah stationary or moving? Is Allah Male or Female? These questions may apply to humans or objects, but by definition Allah's essence is incompatible with such questions. So by asking them, you either

 

A -  dont understand the basics of philosophy and quiddity

B - you assume Allah to be like other things, and then expect Allah to behave as other things do, eg occupying a location.

 

 

My guess is actually you are making both mistakes A and B, but much more so on B, which is really a crime against Allah. 

 

Im sure you were unable to find the substance in the posts, as you seem to persist on this line of likening Allah to the creation, so that you can limit him in a place or direction. 

Edited by iraqi_shia
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@iraqi_shia

 

 

 

it is biased and implies a certain view of Allah for the question to have any meaning, which we reject. Another example of such a question is, "Where is my square triangle?" 

The difference my dear brother. Is that Allah exists, while a square triangle does not exists. Allah has to either be some-where or no-where, even if that some-where is everywhere. There is nothing wrong with the question. So as of yet you have given no answer.

 

 

 

where is my anger at this nonsense thread

Anger is a feeling, and feeling is a state, while Allah is not a state.

 

 

Allah does not have any similar properties, therefore these questions are all null and void.

Which properties would that be. As for body, matter and such this was addressed  in post #30 and #56

 

 

 

Our existence is nothing like that of Allah, our existence is dependent on many things, his is independent of everything. There is nothing similar to Allah, even in existence.

Exactly. So just because creation occupies place, does not mean God occupies place in the same manner.

 

 

 

Why does Allah have to "be" somewhere or no where? This implies that Allah exists in the same way as other things, I reject this assumption.

I dont care what you accept or reject. There is no middle ground between those two. Either God is some-where or he is no-where. Likewise something either exists or it doesnt. Seeing as the existence of God is not similiar to your nor mine, likewise the whereness for Allah is different for everything else.

 

 

 

the laws of the universe

What does the law of the universe have to do with anything. Clearly you have not read any of the previous posts.

 

 

 

s Allah stationary or moving? 

When Allah is stationary he is in a manner that fits him. When Allah moves he does so in a manner that suits him.

 

 

 

Is Allah Male or Female? 

There are other categories such as asexual. 

 

Sadly i still remain without an answer from you.

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Does Allaah (s.w.t) Exist? Yes He does. But His Existence is different to ours, we are not to ponder on His Existence, because only He knows it. We just use the term "exist" because there is no other term to describe It, only He Knows His Essence, and we are prohibited to think of it.

Is He influenced by time and space? No. He, in fact, Has Power over these two concepts. He, is in fact, their Creator.

The Almighty

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The difference my dear brother. Is that Allah exists, while a square triangle does not exists. Allah has to either be some-where or no-where, even if that some-where is everywhere. There is nothing wrong with the question. So as of yet you have given no answer.

 

Why does Allah have to have a location? dont you get it? your just assuming.

 

I noticed you only reply to some of what I have written, should I assume you agree with the rest?

 

 

Anger is a feeling, and feeling is a state, while Allah is not a state.

 

 

So you say anger can have no location, yet Allah must have location, explain why you limit Allah like this?

 

 

Which properties would that be. As for body, matter and such this was addressed  in post #30 and #56

 

 

I do not limit Allah by saying "He must be this or that", as you do, as anything I say is only a concept in my mind, and Allah is greater than that. Your earlier points do not tackle this issue at all, and looking at your replies, I think your starting to understand the point Im making and having trouble responding to it.

 

 

Exactly. So just because creation occupies place, does not mean God occupies place in the same manner.

 

 

Again, why Limit Allah in this way? why? Why does Allah have to be something according to your mind? There is absolutely no rational evidence for this to be the case, for you to be taken seriously, at least bring an argument, you cant just state something so controversial with not even 1 sentence of explanation.

 

 

 

 dont care what you accept or reject. There is no middle ground between those two. Either God is some-where or he is no-where. Likewise something either exists or it doesnt. Seeing as the existence of God is not similiar to your nor mine, likewise the whereness for Allah is different for everything else.

 

Again, your using a limited human perspective to limit Allah to a place you say "He must be here or there", like I repeat over and over again, Why? Why do you think Allah has to be like creation?

 

 

What does the law of the universe have to do with anything. Clearly you have not read any of the previous posts.

 

 

Ive read them , and they are as weak as your recent ones. Assumptions and massive holes in your logic.

 

 

 

When Allah is stationary he is in a manner that fits him. When Allah moves he does so in a manner that suits him.

 

 

So Allah's condition changes? Answer me this, what is the difference to saying we can not limit Allah to a location, and saying Allah's location is in a manner than fits Him? 

 

 

There are other categories such as asexual. 

 

Sadly i still remain without an answer from you.

 

Are you saying Allah is asexual? How do you know? Amazing.

 

I dont think you get the point at all do you? You obviously have tried to study some aspect of philosophy, you seem aware of non contradiction, but you seem utterly confused about essence, which is essential to properly formulate a non contradictory proposition.

 

Once you understand the concept of Essence or quiddity, you will realise how there is no logical process that will allow our very limited human minds to approach Allah at all. Just as a character in a 2d computer game would have no concept of 3d, to him the world is either side to side or back to front, - nothing in between, no excluded middle, so he could never understand the real world, and he is never able to because the few meager lines of code that define his intelligence is not sufficient for that purpose. The difference between our existence and Allah, is even greater than that of the simple 2d character and us.

 

You must remember that when you say Allah is this or that, you can only have the relative certainty of your mind, at best this can know about a few scientific principles, but it never extends beyond this realm, it can never reach Allah, the great muslim thinkers have said as much:

 

In Al Kafi we have these statements which if you take the time to read, will show you our position and it is a beautiful one.:

 

H 242, Ch. 8, h 1
Muhammad ibn al-Hassan has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from
Ali ibn Ri’ab from abu Basir From Imam abu Ja‘ far (a.s.) who has said the following.
"Speak about the creation of Allah and do not speak about Allah His-self. Speaking about the
Allah’s self does not increase anything to one’s knowledge except more confusion."

 

H 243, Ch. 8, h 2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn abu ‘Umayr from
'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj from Sulayman ibn Khalid from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.),
who has said the following.
"The words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, that say, ‘And that the final end is unto thy
Lord." (53:42) instructs people to end a discussion that would take up Allah’s self as an object
of investigation."
 
H 234, Ch. 6, h 5
It has also been narrated that someone asked Imam Ali (a.s.) this.
"Where was our Lord before the creation of the heavens and the earth?" Imam Ali (a.s.)
replied, "Where is a question about space. Allah has been there before there was space."

 

 

H 232, Ch. 6, h 3
Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn Sa'id from
al-Qasim-ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn Abu Hamzah from abu Basir who has said the
following. "A man came to Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) saying, ‘Tell me about your Lord. When
did He come into existence?’" The Imam (a.s.) replied, "Woe upon you! Such question is
asked only about a thing that did not exist. My Lord, all Glory belongs to Him is and will be
eternally. He lives and no How question applies to Him. He did not have any coming into
existence and nor there was any being for His coming into being. This does not apply to Him
because He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in any thing or on any thing nor
did He invent any space for His own space. He did not become stronger after making all
things nor was weak before giving being to the beings. He was not lonely before His
inventing all things. He is not similar to any thing that could be called a thing. He was also
not without Kingdom before the creation and nor will He be without it after all things. He
lives eternally without life and the powerful king before His invention of the things and He is
an all powerful king after the creation of all things. To His existence no How or Where
question is applicable. There is no limit for Him nor is He definable by analogy. He does not
become old due to eternal living. He doe not become alarmed because of any thing but that all
things are fearful of His (disappointment). He lived without newly emerging life. He is not a
describable being or that could be limit with conditions or that would have a space to depend
on. He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something. He is
living and one can know Him. He is the eternal King. He has the power and the kingdom. He
has created all that He wanted and when He decided by His will. He can not be limited. He
can not be divided or destroyed. He was before everything but no How question would apply
to Him. He will be the last but no Where will apply to Him. All things will be destroyed
except He. The creation belongs to Him and His is the command. He is the Holy Lord of the
worlds. O inquirer, imaginations can not encompass my Lord and He does not face any
confusions or bewilderment. Nothing is able to escape Him and nothing happens to Him. He
can not be held responsible for anything and He does not become regretful. Neither slumber
nor sleep overcomes Him. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth
and all that is between them and under the soil.

 

I hope you are willing to continue Rational, I feel you are getting close. I pray for all of us to be guided, but you have to be honest to your self, accept what you see as true and leave what you know is wrong. 

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Why does Allah have to have a location? dont you get it? your just assuming.

 

I noticed you only reply to some of what I have written, should I assume you agree with the rest?

 

Ive addressed what needed to be addresed. As for my question it sadly remains unanswered.

 

As we said. Either Allah is some-where or he is no-where.

 

If you say Allah is some-where, then my question is simply where.

 

If Allah is not some-where, then he is no-where. 

 

You are sadly running away from the question.

 

 

So you say anger can have no location, yet Allah must have location, explain why you limit Allah like this?

 

hhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

No.

 

Allah is an entity not a state. An Entity has an location in contrast to a state. As for limitation we have already addressed that. And you have yet to repond. And you have yet to respond to the challenge we gave to Muhammad Ali. When we put a system of question, showing how ascribing a nature limits Allah. Maybe you can take the time to answer each question.

 

 

As for a problem of limits. If you don't accept that Allah exists outside the universe in a manner that fits him. And your saying this puts a limit upon Allah. I would say a identical argument can be made for ascribing an essence/nature to God.

 

Does Allah have an eternal and uncreated nature/essence?

Is Allah Good and Just? If yes then a few simple Questions arises.   

 

The first question

 

If Allah is Good and Just does he love what is Good and Just?

 

If yes then:

 

Does Allah love the good(just) because it is Good(or just)? Or is it Good(or just) because Allah loves it?

 

If you answer choose the first answer then my question is simply this. What is it that determines that something is Good(or just) or evil(or unjust) as it is not God that does. Also as God is Good(or just) then whatever determines Good(just) and Evil(unjust) has to be above God as God adheres to its scale of Good and Evil or Just and Unjust.

 

If you choose the second answer then the questions are simply this.

 

If God is what decides what is Good and evil o. Then how can you say God is Good? That would be the same as saying depth is deep, or length is lengthy, or height is high.  

 
If you say loving and deciding is not the same and i changed the term then my question is simply this. What is it that made God love that thing, if you say his nature then why does his nature love that thing?. 
 
The second question
 
If God is Good and Just as that is part of his nature then the second question would simply be this.
 
Can God be unjust or is that an impossibility for him? If it is an impossibility then we have a limited Lord.
 
If God can be unjust then i will go on to ask a few simply question.
 
What distinguishes God's justice from Injustice? There must exist a barrier where one side would be just and the other unjust, and this barrier would put an limitation to God and his action as it would not be God but the barrier that decides whether the action is just or unjust.
 
Also if you ascribe a nature to God, the omnipotence and omniscience  would be qualities of God or else God would already be limited if he wasn't omnipotent and omniscient.
 
So my question is
Is God Omnipotent and Omniscient?
Can God created Human being with freewill while knowing their every action from the point they are born until the point they die?
If yes then i simply ask this.
God know every action we will do before he creates us, that means he know whether we are going to hell or heaven, as he is omnipotent he can create us in a manner where we would end up in heaven or in a manner where we would end up in hell.
So that means the only way you can have free will is if God is not omniscient.
Likewise between selecting a Coke and a Pepsi. God would know which one you would select, if you select a Pepsi then God could have created you in a manner where you would have selected the Coke instead, but he created you in a manner where you chose the Pepsi. So in reality you had no free will.
 
Also as he is omnipotent, could God make it such that you wouldn't believe that you exist? Or more clear. Could God make it such that you wouldnt believe you are experiencing? If yes then how would you believe without experiencing as believing is an experience in it self.
 
So your argument against place can be used against just about anything related to God.
 
So if you ascribe a nature to God, you have limited our Lord.
 

 

I be looking forward to you answers.

 

 

 

 

I do not limit Allah by saying "He must be this or that", as you do

Thats because you dont believe Allah exists  :shifty:

 

 

 

 

Answer me this, what is the difference to saying we can not limit Allah to a location, and saying Allah's location is in a manner than fits Him? 

The one says Allah is no-where, the other says Allah is some-where. That is the difference.

 

 

 

Are you saying Allah is asexual? How do you know? Amazing.

Is Allah a Male or not?

Is Allah a female or not?

 

If Allah your answer is not to both. Then by definition Allah is asexual.

 

 

 

The rest of your replies where simply. "Why do you limit Allah". Which we have addressed in detail. As for the last post. It demonstrated that you have no idea what logic is. Sadly your post had no substance. Hopefully your next post, instead of asking why you limit Allah a hundred times. You will answer the questions posed.

 

 

 

 
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