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In the Name of God بسم الله

Should We Call Upon Ali?

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Br. Haydar Husayn, do you ask a doctor to help you when you're sick? Yes.

Is he alive? Yes. Is Imaam Alee` (a.s) alive? Yes, as per Holy Qur'aan.

When you ask the doctor are you supplicating to him (Du'a)? No. Because supplication is an act of worship.

Asking for help isn't supplication.

 

I think many have this problem (including myself):

 

When you ask a doctor for help, do you then sit in your home and call out? No, either you go to the doctor or he will come to you. In other words, you're actually meeting the doctor.

 

However, when you call one of our Imams (as), you call them at home - so that can not be compared to the doctor. 

 

I think the issue is to how the Imams (as) will hear us, if we called upon them.

 

And to Allah (swt) is the praise.

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I think many have this problem (including myself):

 

When you ask a doctor for help, do you then sit in your home and call out? No, either you go to the doctor or he will come to you. In other words, you're actually meeting the doctor.

 

However, when you call one of our Imams (as), you call them at home - so that can not be compared to the doctor. 

 

I think the issue is to how the Imams (as) will hear us, if we called upon them.

 

And to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is the praise.

That's because the Imaams have al-Wilaayah al-Takweeniyah and can perform miracles. The doctor certaintly can't.

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Comparing Imams to doctors is ok assuming that we believe that Imams can do more for us BECAUSE of supplications.

 

In the month of Ramadhan we recite Dua'a Iftitah in which it says:

 

(Discussing 12th Imam)

 

 

"O Allah, send him to call the people unto Thy Book for establishing Thy religion

 

and make him succeed in the earth, as Thou caused those who were before him to succeed

 

and establish for him his faith which Thou has approved for him, and give him in exchange safety after fear.

 

He serves Thee.

 

He ascribes nothing as partner unto Thee."

 

You also asked why do Shia not call on Imam directly, yet there are some shias who do.

 

You might be surprised to hear that many of the Molana/Sheiks/Zakir consistently remind us that Imam Ali (as) as great as he was he still prayed to Allah s w t and tells us to not forget that.

 

I'm also going to admit to some people in the community feel a bit more strongly about Imam Ali and have hints of Nusariyat.

 

A true shia as stated by the 5th Imam

 

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) once said to one of his companions: "O Jabir it is not enough that a person says; I am a Shia and I love the Prophet (sa) and the Prophet's family and the Imams. By Allah, a Shia is the one who is perfectly pious and obedient to Allah's commands. Anyone else is not a Shia no matter how much they say they love Imam Ali (as) and no matter what they call themselves. O Jabir Our Shias are known by these signs:

( a ) They are truthful, trustworthy and loyal;

( b ) They always remember Allah;

( c ) They offer their prayers, observe fasts, and recite Qur'an;

( d ) They help their neighbors, take care of orphans, and say nothing but good of people;

( e ) They act nicely towards their parents;

( f ) They are worthy of peoples trust and confidence.

Edited by AFA_pride
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Br. Haydar Husayn, do you ask a doctor to help you when you're sick? Yes.

Is he alive? Yes. Is Imaam Alee` (a.s) alive? Yes, as per Holy Qur'aan.

When you ask the doctor are you supplicating to him (Du'a)? No. Because supplication is an act of worship.

Asking for help isn't supplication.

These arguments are completely circular. Basically, this is how you are reasoning: You can only worship or supplicate to someone you believe is God, and since I am not addressing my actions to someone I believe to be God, it can't be worship or supplication. So you define worship and supplication in such as a way as to rule out the possibility of shirk. However, that isn't how it works. Worship and supplication are not dependent on being directed to God. You can supplicate to anyone or anything, or worship anyone or anything.

In practical terms, what is the difference between the way people ask Imam `Ali (as) to help them, and the way you would ask Allah to help you? None, as far as I can see. And in any case, many Shia scholars have no problem with admitting that they are making du`a to the Imams. For example:

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Identifying the differences between the words will help inshallah.

 

Worship: Showing reverence or adoration for a deity (Namaz)

 

Supplication: the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly (Dua in Namaz) referring to Allah as the deity

 

Invocation: the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority. (Dua in general)

 

 

As mentioned before the Imams were capable of Mojizaat (miracles) just as the Holy Prophet was.

 

I don't remember the post but someone referred to as Christians when they call out "Jesus Christ!" as something bad is happening (someone falls, accident, etc)

The reason it is shirk is because they believe Jesus is the son of God.

 

When we call out "Ya Ali Madad" we are fully aware that Imam Ali is not a partner to Allah nor is he independent of him. The fact that we can acknowledge that Ali is not in any way shape or form a deity it is not shirk.

 

 

As far as the video is concerned the Imams in no way had the power to create things, I do not know where he got this information from but like all sects there are people who take things to the extreme left and right just as there are in Sunni scholars.

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Identifying the differences between the words will help inshallah.

 

Worship: Showing reverence or adoration for a deity (Namaz)

 

Supplication: the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly (Dua in Namaz) referring to Allah as the deity

 

Invocation: the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority. (Dua in general)

No. These are just word games. There is no difference between supplication and invocation, since in both cases it's dua. 

As mentioned before the Imams were capable of Mojizaat (miracles) just as the Holy Prophet was.

 

I don't remember the post but someone referred to as Christians when they call out "Jesus Christ!" as something bad is happening (someone falls, accident, etc)

The reason it is shirk is because they believe Jesus is the son of God.

 

When we call out "Ya Ali Madad" we are fully aware that Imam Ali is not a partner to Allah nor is he independent of him. The fact that we can acknowledge that Ali is not in any way shape or form a deity it is not shirk.

Define deity. If someone believes Imam `Ali (as) is a being created out of God's own divine essence, who has control over all creation, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-knowing, who people call on in times of distress (and who responds to those calls), then that sounds like a deity to me. Just because he never goes against God's will, and wasn't eternally pre-existent like God, it doesn't mean he wouldn't be a deity, unless once again you reduce whether or not someone is a deity to intention. Saying Jesus is the son of God is just an expression. It's not literal. I fail to see the difference between those beliefs about `Ali that I mentioned, and beliefs about Jesus (other than perhaps Jesus being eternally pre-existent, which not all Christians believe or have believed).

As far as the video is concerned the Imams in no way had the power to create things, I do not know where he got this information from but like all sects there are people who take things to the extreme left and right just as there are in Sunni scholars.

Is Ammar Nakshawani extreme? This is what he said about scholar in that video:

By the way, these beliefs are quite standard among many Shia scholars. In the context of present-day Shi'ism, there is nothing particularly extreme about it.

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These arguments are completely circular. Basically, this is how you are reasoning: You can only worship or supplicate to someone you believe is God, and since I am not addressing my actions to someone I believe to be God, it can't be worship or supplication.

 

Um because supplications are of two kinds, and worship is not supplications, hence its called "worship". Accordingly neither every nida' (call) is du'a' nor every du'a' is 'ibadat (worship). In other words du'a' (supplication) becomes 'ibadat when the rules of worship such as servitude and submissiveness to Allah are observed with acknowledgement of the over lordship of the Almighty Creator. 

 

 

So you define worship and supplication in such as a way as to rule out the possibility of shirk.

 

Because logically not all forms of "dua" is worship, and you have yet to prove so. All I need is one example to disprove your claim. For example, when I ask a doctor to cure me, as I could ask Allah to in a dua, does that mean I am worshiping the doctor? I call on Allah while I worship him, yet I also call on my parents. Does that make my parents my lord? I ask my brothers to pray for me and seek my forgiveness. Are they my lord?

 

 

Worship and supplication are not dependent on being directed to God. You can supplicate to anyone or anything, or worship anyone or anything.

 

Your false premise is speaking in terms of reality (non-muslims) and not actuality, with the basis of Islam (Muslims). In Islam, worship is ONLY to Allah.

 

 

No. These are just word games. There is no difference between supplication and invocation, since in both cases it's dua.

 

No, you see it as word games, when by definition it is what it actually means. 

 

 

If someone believes Imam `Ali (as) is a being created out of God's own divine essence, who has control over all creation, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-knowing, who people call on in times of distress (and who responds to those calls), then that sounds like a deity to me.

 

Your definition is illogical. No being can be all (in terms of absoluteness) hearing-seeing-knowing, for it contradicts the notion of Allah. What you are intentionally disregarding is Shias believe the imams can only do so much that Allah has allowed them to, thus they logically cannot be "all"-whatever. What do you mean has control over all creations? Your reasoning is absurd. If calling on someone in times of distress (and who responds to those calls) makes one a deity then dont call a pizza delivery guy when you are hungry. For he cures you of your hungry and answers your call. Dont call a doctor, for he/she cures you in a time of distress. Now your going to change your argument, and make more excuses.

 

 

Saying Jesus is the son of God is just an expression. It's not literal.

 

That is your interpretation, and it isnt the only case.

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PureEthics, I'm not addressing you, so please don't respond on behalf of others. I know what your positions is, and that unless Hassnain Rajabali decides to speak out against this stuff, you aren't going to be changing your mind. So let's just leave it at that.

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PureEthics, I'm not addressing you, so please don't respond on behalf of others. I know what your positions is, and that unless Hassnain Rajabali decides to speak out against this stuff, you aren't going to be changing your mind. So let's just leave it at that.

 

Nice cheap shot [watch it sunshine - Haji 2003]. Cause clearly my basis of beliefs come from Rajabali, and not myself :dry: . FYI, I believed in Tawassul, prior to listening to Rajabali.

Edited by Haji 2003
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Nice cheap shot. Cause clearly my basis of beliefs come from Rajabali, and not myself :dry: . FYI, I believed in Tawassul, prior to listening to Rajabali.

I never said you believed it because of him. I'm simply stating that I believe he is the only one who could make you reconsider your views.

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I never said you believed it because of him. I'm simply stating that I believe he is the only one who could make you reconsider your views.

 

I will give you that. Yes, his lecturers stimulates ones mind. :)

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Salam,

 

This is a concept I'm still trying to grasp...the reason I converted to Islam (and Shiism) was tawheed...but this idea about calling the Imams and asking them our hajaats directly is clearly shirk to me (and Alhumdulillah it was agreed and explained by some of our local Maulanas and Maulyanis that people do this..especially in Qasidas etc when they make the Imams at the same level of Allah swt)

Anyway, the way I see it is the same as my mother who calls out to her Guru (saint in Hinduism) - she truly believes in only 1 God (Hindus usually just believe in 1 Bhagwan or ultimate creator of the universe), but her Guru is her masters or spiritual guide who is a live human being...they ask him for hajaats and pray to him (sometimes they use his photo, but other times not...and the latter is where its similar to what Shias do) like if my mum is just sitting and she says "Oh this happened by the grace of Guruji...thankyou Guruji..." or "oh Guruji please make xyz thing happen"...and I tell her "mum its God who does this, not your Guru".. her reply "ofcourse it is, but its through my Guru right"...and therefore the Guru becomes the object of worship and is called upon.....its exactly the same as the idols that Hindus worship... they know that its an Almighty God and obviously not the stone idol in front of them...but they still direct their prayers to the idols/ Gurus/ Saints etc.....

Now when you hear this, isn't this shirk? aren't hindus all accused of being polytheists for this very reason? what is the difference in her belief in her Guru, who she truly believes is sent down by the Divine...and the belief that some people are putting for the Imams, who are also sent down by the Divine as we know....?

 

To be clear, I'm in full agreement with tawassul - to seek intercession of the Imams but by directing our worship to Allah and Allah alone...I also believe in saying Salaam to them....but thats it...maybe even hoping that they pass our message to Allah on our behalf (i.e. again intercession since Allah considers them to be alive as martyrs, but they can only pass our messages to Allah..but not fulfill our request themselves...that is ONLY through the power of Allah)

 

so calling upon the Imams to forgive us or fulfill our desires...based on their own power (as some people mentioned above) is where I don't agree...even though at the back of our mind we know that it is Allah, then why direct our duas to them...

At the most, limit would be acceptable would be "Ya Aba Abdulliah, I have requested Allah for so and so, and I wish that you can talk to him as your station with him is closer than my position"

As opposed to "Ya Aba Abdullah, my situation is such and such, please help me solve my problems" 

It is the same situation when writing an areeza...do we write that "Ya Imam I ask you for xyz" or should we write "Ya Imam I have asked Allah for xyz, and request you to intercede and help me to get this dua fulfilled"

 

I know my post is a little all over the place, but since my conversion I have an an issue with the idea of calling upon the Imams..which is why I haven't learnt Nad e Ali because I don't know...I could never write an areeza asking Imam directly to solve an issue, but would surely phrase it the second way...logically...

I'm open to debate if there is some real evidence to help me out here, because it seems like a commonly accepted thing to ask Imams directly....maybe someone can explain the difference in the Guru story and Imams...it would help...

Edited by IFK
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Salam,

 

This is a concept I'm still trying to grasp...the reason I converted to Islam (and Shiism) was tawheed...but this idea about calling the Imams and askign them our hajaats is clearly shirk to me (and explained by some of our local Maulanas and Maulyanis that people do this..especially in Qasidas etc when they make the Imams at the same level of Allah swt)

Anyway, the way I see it is the same as my mother who calls out to her Guru (saint in Hinduism) - she truly believes in only 1 God (Hindus usually just believe in 1 Bhagwan or ultimate creator of the universe), but her Guru is her masters or spiritual guide who is a live human being...they ask him for hajaats and pray to him (sometimes they use his photo, but other times not...and the latter is where its similar to what Shias do) like if my mum is just sitting and she says "Oh this happened by the grace of Guruji...thankyou Guruji...it wouldn't have happened without him" or "oh Guruji please make xyz thing happen"...and I tell her "mum its God who does this, not your Guru".. her reply "ofcourse it is, but its through my Guru right"...and therefore the Guru becomes the object of worship and is called upon.....its exactly the same as the idols that Hindus worship... they know that its an Almighty God and obviously not the stone idol in front of them...but they still direct their prayers to the idols/ Gurus/ Saints etc.....

Now when you hear this, isn't this shirk? aren't hindus all accused of being polytheists for this very reason? what is the difference in her belief in her Guru, who she truly believes is sent down by the Divine...and the belief that some people are putting for the Imams, who are also sent down by the Divine as we know....?

 

First of all her god is not Allah, nor is the oneness of Allah preserved, that is clear cut kufr. This is why hinudism is polytheistic. No matter how they put it, they divide god. Let alone a saint who is not even chosen by Allah or given a status by Him. So this example is not even close to tawassul in Shia Islam. FYI, hindu's believe their saints are partly divine, and thus independent of their god(s).

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First of all her god is not Allah, nor is the oneness of Allah preserved, that is clear cut kufr. This is why hinudism is polytheistic. No matter how they put it, they divide god. Let alone a saint who is not even chosen by Allah or given a status by Him. So this example is not even close to tawassul in Shia Islam. FYI, hindu's believe their saints are partly divine, and thus independent of their god(s).

 

But she does believe in just 1 God...thats what I'm trying to say..she agrees with the Islamic concept of God and His unity...they are not the idol worshipping, God dividing kind of Hindus (most aren't today anyway)...they all believe in one supreme being...they say they call it Bhagwan, Muslims call it Allah and others just say God...same 1 God that takes care and created us all...

The Hindu belief in the Saints is similar to being divinely appointed...some believe they are re-incarnations of God (which is ofcourse nothing like the Muslim beliefs) but others just say that God has sent these saints as their divine appointments..they were given the gift by God to memorize the words of God at a very young age and live by that..its more of a spiritual connection thing than religious though...we never read the Hindu books in my house..but the whole following Guru thing is huge...and this is not just my house...this is everyone I've grown up around...they have their own Gurus, but they need to follow Gurus, because that is the only way to understand God in the way they look at it...through their Gurus...the way we say we can only understand Allah through His Ahlulbayt (as).....so its simiiar again that way...their Guru is their leader..who they believe is a representative by God to guide them....

 

Also, to clarify: I'm not comparing it to tawassul - i'm comparing it to doing dua to the Imams directly...

Edited by IFK
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But she does believe in just 1 God...thats what I'm trying to say..she agrees with the Islamic concept of God and His unity...they are not the idol worshipping, God dividing kind of Hindus (most aren't today anyway)...they all believe in one supreme being...they say they call it Bhagwan, Muslims call it Allah and others just say God...same 1 God that takes care and created us all...

The Hindu belief in the Saints is similar to being divinely appointed...some believe they are re-incarnations of God (which is ofcourse nothing like the Muslim beliefs) but others just say that God has sent these saints as their divine appointments..they were given the gift by God to memorize the words of God at a very young age and live by that..its more of a spiritual connection thing than religious though...we never read the Hindu books in my house..but the whole following Guru thing is huge...and this is not just my house...this is everyone I've grown up around...they have their own Gurus, but they need to follow Gurus, because that is the only way to understand God in the way they look at it...through their Gurus...the way we say we can only understand Allah through His Ahlulbayt (as).....so its simiiar again that way...their Guru is their leader..who they believe is a representative by God to guide them....

Also, to clarify: I'm not comparing it to tawassul - i'm comparing it to doing dua to the Imams directly...

Again they can call it whatever they want, but it is not described to be the Allah of Islam. Hinduism and ALL it's beliefs isn't Islam. Their saints are divine, you can look it up if you don't believe me. Their saints are not chosen by Allah not are they anything close to the Ahlulbayt. Again, even if they calling them directly like us Shias, it doesn't make our case shirk. Many idol worshippers pray, should we stop praying? This is absurd reasoning brother. I explained it clearly. The imams ability comes from Allah, and it is Allah who gives them the power.

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Again they can call it whatever they want, but it is not described to be the Allah of Islam. Hinduism and ALL it's beliefs isn't Islam. Their saints are divine, you can look it up if you don't believe me. Their saints are not chosen by Allah not are they anything close to the Ahlulbayt. Again, even if they calling them directly like us Shias, it doesn't make our case shirk. Many idol worshippers pray, should we stop praying? This is absurd reasoning brother. I explained it clearly. The imams ability comes from Allah, and it is Allah who gives them the power.

If we assume for argument's sake that they don't consider their saints to be divine, then is what they are doing Shirk?

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If we assume for argument's sake that they don't consider their saints to be divine, then is what they are doing Shirk?

 

First of all, shirk is only applied within Islam. This case is flawed, because whether they take their saints independent or dependent, the problem lies within their attributes attained to their God. So who cares about their saints.

 

Just for arguments sake, no, from the simple fact that those saints neither were chosen by Allah, nor were they endowed with the ability by Allah. Whether they ask from them, makes no difference. For calling on them will do nothing for them. It is only shirk, if they take them as independent from Allah. What is shirk? Simple, taking/making/worshiping someone as your lord, other than Allah.

Edited by PureEthics
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First of all, shirk is only applied within Islam.

 

What do you mean? Members of other religions can commit shirk too, like Christians for example.

Yes, from the simple fact that those saints neither were chosen by Allah, nor were they endowed with the ability by Allah. This without disregarding, whether they take them independent. We cannot go around seeking shafah from abu bakr and what not. Because, if we do, and Allah did not raise the person's status nor gave them the ability, then we are automatically implying their power came from their self.

Ok, so if Allah hasn't given permission for people to call on the Imams for their needs, then that would be shirk then?
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What do you mean? Members of other religions can commit shirk too, like Christians for example.

 

It is shirk from an Islamic perspective not the other religions perspective.

 

 

Ok, so if Allah hasn't given permission for people to call on the Imams for their needs, then that would be shirk then?

 

Yes, forget shirk, it would be haram, if Allah specifically stated we cannot call on his representatives for our needs.

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Let me make it very simple for ya: Prophets/Messengers/Ahlulbayt. If you are here to argue just for the sake of arguing, I wont bother to post again.

No, I'm genuinely asking. Could you ask a martyr to intercede with Allah for you? Can you ask angels to intercede for you, or to fulfil your needs? If not, why not?

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No, I'm genuinely asking. Could you ask a martyr to intercede with Allah for you? Can you ask angels to intercede for you, or to fulfil your needs? If not, why not?

 

Martyr's are among those who will intercede on all our behalf's, it is very clear from our hadith and the holy quran. Now pay very close attention to what I say. I have made a clear mistake in my post above, in my reasoning, I have edited it:

 

 

First of all, shirk is only applied within Islam. This case is flawed, because whether they take their saints independent or dependent, the problem lies within their attributes attained to their God. So who cares about their saints.

 

Just for arguments sake, no, from the simple fact that those saints neither were chosen by Allah, nor were they endowed with the ability by Allah. Whether they ask from them, makes no difference. For calling on them will do nothing for them. It is only shirk, if they take them as independent from Allah. What is shirk? Simple, taking/making/worshiping someone as your lord, other than Allah.

 

Yes you can, as long as you believe they are independent from Allah, and it is Allah who has given them such an ability. However, it is futile, if they were neither chosen or granted such an ability.

 

Now I ask you a simple question: What is shirk? According to the quran.

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(salam)
 

Best form of Tawassul I've seen (I believe narration was translated by Islamic Salvation):

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن أبان، ومعاوية بن وهب قالا: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): إذا قمت إلى الصلاة فقل: اللهم إني اقدم إليك محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) بين يدي حاجتي وأتوجه به إليك، فاجعلني به وجيها عندك في الدنيا و الآخرة ومن المقربين، اجعل صلاتي به مقبولة وذنبي به مغفورا ودعائي به مستجابا إنك أنت الغفور الرحيم 

 

2. (3) Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from al-Husayn bin Said from Fadhala (bin Ayub) from Aban (bin Uthman) and Muawiya bin Wahb who said: Abu Abdillah عليه السلام said: when you stand to (go and) pray then say: 

O my Lord, I give preference to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله (i.e. over myself in front of You) and place Him between my outstretched hands in need (of You), and turn to You through Him, so make me through Him an intimate of Yours in this world and the next, and from among the close ones (to You), and make my prayers through Him accepted, and my sins through Him forgiven, and my supplications through Him answered, Indeed You are the most Forgiving - the Merciful.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
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(salam)

 

Best form of Tawassul I've seen (I believe narration was translated by Islamic Salvation):

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن أبان، ومعاوية بن وهب قالا: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): إذا قمت إلى الصلاة فقل: اللهم إني اقدم إليك محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) بين يدي حاجتي وأتوجه به إليك، فاجعلني به وجيها عندك في الدنيا و الآخرة ومن المقربين، اجعل صلاتي به مقبولة وذنبي به مغفورا ودعائي به مستجابا إنك أنت الغفور الرحيم 

 

2. (3) Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from al-Husayn bin Said from Fadhala (bin Ayub) from Aban (bin Uthman) and Muawiya bin Wahb who said: Abu Abdillah عليه السلام said: when you stand to (go and) pray then say: 

O my Lord, I give preference to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله (i.e. over myself in front of You) and place Him between my outstretched hands in need (of You), and turn to You through Him, so make me through Him an intimate of Yours in this world and the next, and from among the close ones (to You), and make my prayers through Him accepted, and my sins through Him forgiven, and my supplications through Him answered, Indeed You are the most Forgiving - the Merciful.

 

Wassalam

 

 

Yes this seems to be the way I'm saying makes sense...

Brother PureEthics..I think there is some misunderstanding here...YOU (and me, and all of us Muslims) may not believe that the Hindu saints have been given divine permission by Allah, but what I'm trying to say is that THEY the Hindus themselves believe so....

In the same manner that a Hindu/ Christian/ etc will not believe in the Divine appointment of the Ahlulbayt, but we, as Shia Muslims, do believe so...

 

The way we believe it, Hindus believe it....

I'm not sure if you were born Muslim or converted, maybe converts may be able to understand my point: From their perspective, they are doing the correct and divinely ordained thing, the same way that we Muslims believe we are doing the correct and divinely ordained thing...but ofcourse WE know that their form is shirk....so how is the same thing, when done in Islam, not shirk?

Again, I'm specifically referring to saying "Ya Imam pls fulfill my hajaat"...NO other form of tawassul/salaam..the rest are all much clearer....

 

I'm genuinely asking because as an ex-Hindu, I'm not able to pinpoint a difference in what I used to do versus what Shias are doing, except to different personalities....in both cases, the believers of the religions believe that these personalities have been given this status by God Almighty..

 

Please note also that I'm not talking about the Hindus most people hear/ know about, who believe in many Gods and different forms of God and all that - i'm talking about modern day spiritual Hindus who are not into religious rituals related to idols, fasting for the different Gods or sacrificing for specific Gods on specific days etc....thats a whole different belief system....which is not my query

Edited by IFK
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When I saw babies that were killed by the bombs (dropped by the zionist regime) and their mothers asking help from Allah swt and Muslims...I could not  help myself but to ask Allah swt to help the oppressed mothers.

 

Is there anything wrong to ask Allah on behalf of these mothers even though I have not seen these women and they also have not seen me?  Physically I can't do anything to directly help them.  But, I see and hear them, and I have ask Allah swt to help them. 

 

Prophet and Imams are alive, but physically they can't interfere with our life.  Spiritually, they can hear our calls, and make duas on our behalf. 

 

Tawassul is not physical connection, it is spiritual connection between us and those who are Allah swt called "alive".

Edited by layman
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^^ Agreed

I don't think anyone has a problem with tawassul...

the issue is asking thee Imams directly to fulfill our duas....rather than asking them to take it to Allah on our behalf..

as I mentioned earlier, its like saying "Ya Ali(as) pls make my dua come true" versus "Ya Ali (as) please take my duas to Allah on my behalf since you have a higher status with Allah" the former doesn't seem as monotheistic...as opposed to the 2nd one which sounds a lot more correct in my humble opinion..

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(bismillah)

 

If we actually study the ways of Du`a that the imams [a.s] recommended to us, we would find that they told us to call on Allah through his 99 names, and make Du`a by the right of the infallibles, repentance...etc. I haven't found any Sahih Hadith as of yet where they tell us to call upon Ali [a.s] or Fatimah [a.s] directly. The Qur'an is also very clear that Allah [s.w.t] is the one who answers your supplications, not anyone else. They are only the means for it to have more value in front of God Almighty. 

 

(wasalam)

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For those who want to understand the role of tawassul, two authenticated hadiths:

Narrated Usman bin Hanif: "A blind man came to the prophet(peace be upon him) and said, 'I have been afflicted in my eyesight, please pray to Allah for me.' The Prophet [ (pbuh)] told him, 'If you accept being patient it will be better for you.' But the man isisted, 'Please pray to Allah.'  Then the Prophet (pbuh) said:'Go make ablution, perform two cycles of prayer, then say, O Allah, I ask Thee  and turn to Thee through my Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , the Prophet of Mercy; O Muhammad, I have turned to you as a means towards my Lord for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession (shafa'a) for me.' The man stood up and hight was recovered"  ( al-Hakim.  Sahih Hadith)

Narrated Anas bin Malik: "At times of drought, 'Umar bin al-Khatab used to recite the supplication for rain relying on al-Abass bin 'Abd al-Muttalib for his demand, saying: ' O Allah! We used to seek access to Thee trough our Prophet (pbuh), and Though would bless us with rain, and now we seek access to Thou trough the uncle of our Prophet (pbuh).  O Allah bless us with rain.'  And so it would rain"  (al-Bukhari  Sahih Hadith)

 


Now comming to the tilte of the this thread: Should We Call Upon Ali(as)?

 

Remember Hazrat Ali (as) was one of the rightly-guided caliphs and also the wasi of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).  There are historical accounts of Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself calling upon Hazrat Ali (as).  So, if you believe that Hazrat Ali (as) is Wali-Allah and wasi of the prophet then you may seek Help of Allah through Hazrat Ali (as).  But if you want to seek the Help of Allah without any one's tawassul then you are free to do that as well.

 

In the end we all recite the same shahada.

 

 

-- Praying for the Peace and Calm in your hearts

Edited by Right2U
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On 7/15/2014 at 10:42 AM, Lordofgemini said:

Sahih International

O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed.

5:35

P.s. in brother pure ethics posts 'those who believe' refers to the Holy imams (as) who are to be taken as guardians.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2014 at 4:39 PM, triploli said:

Salam aleikum everyone, 

My question today is regarding this ayah from Surah az-Zumr

 

 " Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah only. And those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever." (39:3)

 

Most South Asian shias are in a habit of calling upon Hazrat Ali (r.a) whenever they're in trouble/hardship. Albeit Prophet p.b.u.h has given great importance to Hazrat Ali (r.a). but doesn't this ayah prove that doing so is wrong? If you can shed light on the matter, I'd be utmost grateful. 

bismillah.gif.5c9a2774c9721ad9145b6875d8

You are COMMITTING A SHIRK JUST BY BEING ON THIS SITE! ACCORDING TO YOU, you  used the help of "kuffar" who made this computer you are using to get here, so according to your own self, you are committing a shirk. So say "ustaghfurillah" and throw away your computer, and never come here again, keep praying to Allah to bring you on this site, once you have done that successfully, then we, as Shias will never call upon Ali a.s for help, until you can prove that otherwise I suggest you shut up and obey Allah and follow the true path of Islam!

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Here are the verses that clarify the different Words /Concepts that are been used above-

أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَىٰ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ كَاذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ {3}

[Shakir 39:3] Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful.
[Pickthal 39:3] Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate.
[Yusufali 39:3] Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 39:3]

Worship is due to none but Allah. Worshippers of material possessions and resources, power, intellect, leaders and ambition may pretend that they seek fulfilment of the goal of their life through these media which finally bring them nearer to Allah, but they are altogether on the wrong track.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

To take guardians beside Allah without His permission is strictly prohibited.

Verse 55 of al Ma-idah says:

Verily, your guardian is Allah and His messenger and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give the poor-rate while they are (in the state of ruku) bowing down.

(Refer to the commentary of Ma-idah: 55)

*****

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُوا فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ {35}

[Shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.
[Pickthal 5:35] O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.
[Yusufali 5:35] O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:35]

Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being.

If Allah had willed He could have guided mankind directly through inspiration, but in His infinite wisdom, He had not deemed it desirable. He selected and appointed His representatives to convey His message and laws to people and administer their affairs in every age. Please refer to pages 1 to 7, and the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 to 5, 30 to 38, 48, and 124 to know that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the only means of approach to Allah.

Thus wasilah or means of access to Allah is to faithfully follow the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams of his holy house, who have been thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33).

The Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are from one divine light."

"I will soon be called back, so I will have to go away from you, but I leave behind, amid you, the thaqalayn (two weighty indispensable influential authorities), the book of Allah and my Ahl ul Bayt. Should you be attached to these two, never, never shall you go astray, after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other; and, joined together, they shall meet me at the spring of Kawthar."

"My Ahl ul Bayt amongst you are like the ark of Nuh. He who sails on it will be safe; but he who holds back shall be drowned and lost.".

http://quran.al-islam.org/

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