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triploli

Should We Call Upon Ali?

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lair

 

As i know you get way to excited when it comes to discussions. And you have no form of self-respect, nor any adab. I made sure the relevant part was in bold and red text. Yet you somehow missed it.

 

Bukhari -Volume 8, Book 74, Number 281: Narrated Ibn Mas'ud: Allah's Apostle taught me the Tashah-hud as he taught me a Sura from the Quran, while my hand was between his hands. (Tashah-hud was) all the best compliments and the prayers and the good things are for Allah. Peace and Allah's Mercy and Blessings be on you, O Prophet! Peace be on us and on the pious slaves of Allah, I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and I also testify that Muhammad is Allah's slave and His Apostle. (We used to recite this in the prayer) during the lifetime of the Prophet , but when he had died, we used to say, "Peace be on the Prophet."

 

ابْنَ مَسْعُودٍ، يَقُولُ عَلَّمَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَكَفِّي بَيْنَ كَفَّيْهِ التَّشَهُّدَ، كَمَا يُعَلِّمُنِي السُّورَةَ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ التَّحِيَّاتُ لِلَّهِ وَالصَّلَوَاتُ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ، السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ، السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى عِبَادِ اللَّهِ الصَّالِحِينَ، أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ‏.‏ وَهْوَ بَيْنَ ظَهْرَانَيْنَا، فَلَمَّا قُبِضَ قُلْنَا السَّلاَمُ‏.‏ يَعْنِي عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏

 

 

 

the same goes for our Imams

The conveying of salawat is for salawat only. Not for asking the Prophet to grants us anything, to make dua for us and such.

 

If your (new) claim is that when you pray to the imams, you have in mind that they cannot hear you, rather the angels convey your dua to the imams. Then please provide me a hadith that confirms this from your book. Dont invent random facts and attribute them to your imams.

 

Besides you dont ask the Imams to make dua. You ask them to grant you from themself.

 

 

 Umar taught people to address the Prophet sa and say: O Prophet peace be upon you 

 

There is no difference between saying O Prophet peace be upon you, or peace be upon the prophet. As he hears neither. Rather it is the angels that convey the message to him.

 

Umar taught Maybe umar

 

If you want to have a talk with me here, and you want to mention Amir ul muminin Al Farooq. Then either you you mention him in a respectable manner or you refrain from addressing me.

Edited by RationalDeen

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Yet you somehow missed it.

 

I proved you were a liar. what does it have to do with adab? you deny the fact that umar taught people to directly address the Prophet  (pbuh)? umar did it during his rule, and that was after the demise of the Prophet  (pbuh)

all four sunni schools regard the following statement a part of their prayer:

التَّحِيَّاتُ لِلَّهِ، وَالصَّلَوَاتُ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ، السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ، السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى عِبَادِ اللَّهِ الصَّالِحِينَ، أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لا إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ ، وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ

your scholars believe the narration you are in love with so much, has some additions by the narrators as their Ijtihad that contradict the teaching of umar:

وأمّا ما وَرَدَ في " صحيح البخاري " عن عبد الله بن مسعود أنهم كانوا يقولون بعد وفاة الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم: " السَّلامُ على النَّبيِّ ورحمة الله وبركاته " فهذا مِن اجتهاداتِه – رضي الله عنه - التي خالَفه فيها مَنْ هو أعلمُ منه ؛ عُمرُ بن الخطَّاب ، فإنه خَطَبَ النَّاسَ على مِنبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وقال في التشهُّد ِ: " السَّلامُ عليك أيُّها النبيُّ ورحمة الله " كما رواه مالك في " الموطأ " بسَنَدٍ من أصحِّ الأسانيد ، وقاله عُمرُ بمحضر الصَّحابة وأقرُّوه على ذلك . 

لصحيح أن يقول المصلي في التشهد السلام عليك أيها النبي ورحمة الله وبركاته ؛ لأن هذا هو الثابت في الأحاديث ، وأما ما روي عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه في ذلك- إن صح عنه - فهو اجتهاد من فاعله لا يعارض به الأحاديث الثابتة ، ولو كان الحكم يختلف بعد وفاته عنه في حياته لبينه لهم صلى الله عليه وسلم . 

" فتاوى اللجنة الدائمة للبحوث العلمية والإفتاء " ( 7 / 11 - 13 ) . 

go and study.

as I said umar had "major kufr" issue according to your own reasoning

as for Shia sources, a narration that says angels take the Salam of the shias to the Imam, it is from Kamil al-Ziyarat:

 

1- حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْقُرَشِيُّ الرَّزَّازُ الْكُوفِيُّ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي خَالِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ أَبِي الْخَطَّابِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُوسَى بْنُ سَعْدَانَ الْحَنَّاطُ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْحَضْرَمِيِّ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ شُعَيْبٍ الْمِيثَمِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولُ‏ إِنَّ الْحُسَيْنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع لَمَّا وُلِدَ أَمَرَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ جَبْرَئِيلَ ع أَنْ يَهْبِطَ فِي أَلْفٍ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَيُهَنِّئَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص مِنَ اللَّهِ وَ مِنْ جَبْرَئِيلَ ع قَالَ وَ كَانَ مَهْبِطُ جَبْرَئِيلَ ع عَلَى جَزِيرَةٍ فِي الْبَحْرِ فِيهَا مَلَكٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ فُطْرُسُ‏ كَانَ مِنَ الْحَمَلَةِ فَبُعِثَ فِي شَيْ‏ءٍ فَأَبْطَأَ فِيهِ فَكُسِرَ جَنَاحُهُ وَ أُلْقِيَ فِي تِلْكَ الْجَزِيرَةِ يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ فِيهَا سِتَّمِائَةِ عَامٍ حَتَّى وُلِدَ الْحُسَيْنُ ع فَقَالَ الْمَلَكُ لِجَبْرَئِيلَ ع أَيْنَ تُرِيدُ- قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى أَنْعَمَ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بِنِعْمَةٍ فَبُعِثْتُ أُهَنِّئُهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَ مِنِّي فَقَالَ يَا جَبْرَئِيلُ احْمِلْنِي مَعَكَ لَعَلَّ مُحَمَّداً ص يَدْعُو اللَّهَ لِي قَالَ فَحَمَلَهُ فَلَمَّا دَخَلَ جَبْرَئِيلُ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ص وَ هَنَّأَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَ هَنَّأَهُ مِنْهُ وَ أَخْبَرَهُ بِحَالِ فُطْرُسَ‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص يَا جَبْرَئِيلُ أَدْخِلْهُ فَلَمَّا أَدْخَلَهُ أَخْبَرَ فُطْرُسُ‏ النَّبِيَّ ص بِحَالِهِ فَدَعَا لَهُ النَّبِيُّ ص وَ قَالَ لَهُ تَمَسَّحْ بِهَذَا الْمَوْلُودِ وَ عُدْ إِلَى مَكَانِكَ قَالَ فَتَمَسَّحَ فُطْرُسُ‏ بِالْحُسَيْنِ ع وَ ارْتَفَعَ وَ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص أَمَا إِنَّ أُمَّتَكَ سَتَقْتُلُهُ- وَ لَهُ عَلَيَّ مُكَافَاةُ أَنْ لَا يَزُورَهُ زَائِرٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَنْهُ وَ لَا يُسَلِّمَ عَلَيْهِ مُسَلِّمٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ سَلَامَهُ وَ لَا يُصَلِّيَ عَلَيْهِ مُصَلٍّ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَلَيْهِ صَلَاتَهُ قَالَ ثُمَّ

ارْتَفَعَ.

Amir al-Mumineen is a Prophet-Given title, exclusively for Ali b. Abi Talib al-Farooq al-'Azam

no wonder, some people stole it and now you see terrorists like abu bakr baghdaadi call themselves by it. 

 

There is no difference between saying O Prophet peace be upon you, or peace be upon the prophet.

 

 

nope, the first is a direct address.

If you want to have a talk with me here ...

 

... you should stop repeating Takfiri allegations and paving the way for killing innocent shias.

get your hand out of innocent blood.

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If you want to have a talk with me here, and you want to mention Amir ul muminin Al Farooq. Then either you you mention him in a respectable manner or you refrain from addressing me.

Come on, this is a bit pathetic. Many Sunnis online simply refer to him as Umar, so you can hardly expect Shias to do more than them. All you are going to do by saying things like this is detract from the real issues.

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 @mesbah

 

 

 

you deny the fact

When did i deny anything? I said we say Peace be upon the prophet and brought a narration from Ibn Masud to prove such. You need to learn some manners when you talk to others. If you want to have a conversation with me, you will address me in an humble manner, or dont bother addressing me at all. I am sure you were taught better at home.

 

As for what you posted 

 

 عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه في ذلك إن صح عنه فهو اجتهاد من فاعله

 

 

Then it confirms it was ijtihad of Ibn Masud.

 

And this was not confirmed by Ibn Masud alone. Also by Ibn Umar

 

عبد الرزاق: أخبرنا ابن جريج أخبرنى عطاء أن الصحابة كانوا يقولون والنبى صلى الله عليه وسلم حى: السلام عليك أيها النبى , فلما مات قالوا: الصلام على النبى.
وهذا إسناد صحيح. قلت: وقد وجدت له شاهدين صحيحين: الأول: عن ابن عمر " أنه كان يتشهد فيقول... السلام على النبى ورحمة الله وبركاته... " أخرجه مالك فى " الموطأ " (1/91/94) عن نافع عنه

 

By Aisha

 

عن عائشة أنها كانت تعلمهم التشهد فى الصلاة... السلام على النبى.
رواه ابن أبى شيبة فى " المصنف " (1/115/1) والسراج فى " مسنده " (ج 9/1/2) والمخلص فى " الفوائد " (ج 11/54/1) بسندين صحيحين عنه
 
 
And whether we choose to follow this opinion or not, then that is up to us. Some have defended this saying, others have argued against it.
 
 

 

 

 

according to your own reasoning

I  explained it very clearly that the angels convey the salam to the Prophet, and that he does not hear it directly.

 

Salam Alayka  is a supplication for him, not calling upon him, and he does not hear it directly.

 

 

 

nope, the first is a direct address.

There is no difference, as both are conveyed by the angels.

 

 

And you failed to bring me 1 narration, that say when you pray to your imam, or ask your imam for help, then the angels convey your request/prayer to the imam.

 

And after you fail to find such a narration, i will make it even easier for you

 

I challenged you to find me one credible scholar from the 12ers who held such a creed.

 

You believe the Imams hear you directly, you taken the attribute of All-hearing and attributed it to your Imams.

 

And the takfir is done in light of all this.

 

Second we dont declare the layperson kuffar. As Ibn Taymiyya said

 

والإمامية الاثنا عشرية خير منهم بكثير فإن الإمامية مع فرط جهلهم وضلالهم فيهم خلق مسلمون باطنا وظاهرا ليسوا زنادقة منافقين لكنهم جهلوا وضلوا واتبعوا أهواءهم وأما أولئك فأئمتهم الكبار العارفون بحقيقة دعوتهم الباطنية زنادقة منافقون عوامهم الذين لم يعرفوا باطن أمرهم فقد يكونون مسلمين

 

So when it comes to an ignorant person who lacks knowledge and wisdom as yourself masbah, who takes a verse out of the Quran without knowing the asbab al nuzul, the proper meaning and so on, then we dont declare your like(layman) as kuffar.

Edited by RationalDeen

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....

 

 

you were a lair because you were generalizing only one side of the story, "we do not address ..." that's you wahabbis, you love to call yourselves ahlussuna wa aljama'a, but after a little investigation it appears it was only some Takfiri extremists.

 

I made sure the relevant part was in red and bold but "you somehow missed it": 

فَتَمَسَّحَ فُطْرُسُ‏ بِالْحُسَيْنِ ع وَ ارْتَفَعَ وَ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص أَمَا إِنَّ أُمَّتَكَ سَتَقْتُلُهُ- وَ لَهُ عَلَيَّ مُكَافَاةُ أَنْ لَا يَزُورَهُ زَائِرٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَنْهُ وَ لَا يُسَلِّمَ عَلَيْهِ مُسَلِّمٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ سَلَامَهُ وَ لَا يُصَلِّيَ عَلَيْهِ مُصَلٍّ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَلَيْهِ صَلَاتَهُ

Futrus touched Imam al-Husayn (Salawaat Allah Alayh) and said: O apostle of Allah! your Umma will kill him- and I shall pay back my debt and that is: ... whenever an individual says Salaam to him, I will convey his Salaam to Husayn (Salawat Allah Alayh)

takfir is done in the light of suadi petro-dollars plus narrow mind-ness  and selfishness of some ignorant people.

Takfiri movement has two sides, first is the theoretical and second is the practical. people like you are soldiers of the first squad. you, by your insistence on shia=shirk propaganda,  prepare the ground for your terrorist friends to kill innocent people in Iraq and Syria and everywhere else, and yes, they kill laymen along women and children. and you sir have your share of their blood.

who gave you the authority to define Tawheed and kill everybody else who has a different interpretation? 

 

and don't be very proud of your asbab nuzul and tafsir, it is mainly some distortion by a jew, ka'b al-ahbar; we have our own version of Tafsir in our tradition.

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Besides you dont ask the Imams to make dua. You ask them to grant you from themself.

 

I have never heard a single Shi'ite scholar worth his salt say this in the manner which you refer.

 

Some of the Shi'ite scholars, such as Ayatollah Fadlallah, have actually disapproved of addressing the Imams directly. Those that do approve of it, however, approve of it on the condition that is understood that it is Allah who is the source of their power and to whom they are answerable to and to whom they bow in complete and unwavering obedience.

 

There are plenty of instances where the Qu'ran says things like it is Allah who creates the heavens and the earth and that it is Allah who takes man's soul upon his death, and yet in verses of the Qu'ran and in the prophetic hadith of both the Sunni and Shi'ite schools, we see that, in fact, it is said in these sources that the angels were the ones who created the heavens and the earth, who molded Adam (pbuh) and it is the angels of death who take the souls of men, but there's no contradiction here, not between the verses of the Qu'ran or the Qu'ran and the authentic narrations, but rather what we see from this apparent contradiction is actually a testament to the harmony that exists between the will of Allah and the actions of his obedient servants that we can speak of their actions and Allah's actions as essentially one in the same.

 

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death. --[surah 39:42]

 

Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.--[surah 32:11]

 

The angels and the Imams are among the highest ranks of the muwahiddun, possessing no desire other than that which Allah desires, and Muhammad (pbuh) and his Ahlul Bayt are certainly above the ranks of the angels.

 

Sheikh Tusi records Imam Ali (as) as having stated:

 
“We are the Work (Creations) of Allah and rest  of the creations are our Work".

 

In Al-Kafi, we read:

 

“Once I was in the presence of (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who began to speak without any question from me. ‘We are the authority of Allah. We are the doors to Allah. We are the tongues of Allah. We are the face of Allah. We are the eyes of Allah in His people. We are the authority in the commandments of Allah among His servants,’”--Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 355, Ch. 23, h7

 

“Hashim ibn abu ‘Ummarah al-Janbiy reported to him this. ‘I heard Amir al-Mu’minin Ali ibn abu Talib, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, saying, “I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hand of Allah. I am the side of Allah. I am the door to Allah.’” --Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 356, Ch. 23, h8

 

 

The Shi'ite scholars have not generally found this to be in contradiction with any of the verses of the Qu'ran. Allah is still creator of the Imams who according to his will, fashioned and formed the foundation of the entire created universe. From the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), we read:

 

"..when Allah wanted to create us He originated a sentence which created light, then He said another word which created the spirit. He then placed the spirit in the light and created Me, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain. We glorified and purified Allah at the time when there was no mention of it (that is we did not learn them from anyone).

When Allah willed to create His Creation He split my light and created the throne from it. So throne is from my light and my light is from Allah and my light is superior to the throne. Then Allah split the light of my brother Ali and created angels from it. Thus angels are from the light of Ali and Ali's light is from Allah and superior to angels. Allah then split the light of my daughter Fatima and created the skies and earth from it. Thus, the skies and the earth are created from her light and her light is from Allah and superior to the skies and the earth.

Allah then split the light of my son Hasan and created sun and moon from it. Therefore the sun and the moon are form the light of Hasan and his light is from Allah and is superior to the sun and the moon. Allah then split the light of my son Husain and created paradise and its fairies (Hoor al-Een) from it. So paradise and its fairies are from the light of Husain and his light is from Allah and superior to the paradise and its fairies."

 

--Bihar al-Anwar Vol 57, Pg 191,193, Hadith 139

 

 

When one beseeches the Imam, he or she doesn't, or at least shouldn't, beseech the Imams believing that if they answer his or her plea that it is anyone other than God who has answered it, but the Imam's aid is the manifestation of Allah's command. If he does not answer our plea, it is because Allah has turned down our request. And to say that they "died" and therefore can't hear us is a silly point, as while their mortal bodies ceased to function, their immortal spirit has existed since the beginning of creation and continues to testify to the reality and oneness of Allah.

 

Whatever the Imams grant "from themselves" is in fact, from Allah and Allah alone and the unity between Ahlul Bayt and Allah by virtue of Ahlul Bayt's endless submission to their creator allows us to speak of their actions and Allah's actions as virtually synonymous in the same way that verses in the Qu'ran do speak of the actions of the angels and the actions Allah as synonymous. Although the action itself on one level is carried out by instrument of the angels, it is by virtue of their submission to the divine command and embodiment of said commands, we can stil lsay "Allah did it," since Allah's command manifested itself in their obedient actions. And of course, the station of the angels is, again, below that of Muhammad (pbuh) Ali (as) Fatima (as) and Ahlul Bayt's.

 

You also mention the angels conveying messages to the Prophet (pbuh). We do not necessarily deny this nor does any of the above necessarily contradict this with regard to Ahlul Bayt's exalted station if we understand that the angels themselves, as well as all the other prophets, are formed from the light of Ahlul Bayt and are thus deeply connected as "one body," if you will. And Allah knows best.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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... It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death. --[surah 39:42]

 

Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.--[surah 32:11]

...

 

well explained, Jazaka Allah.

I'd like to add one more explicit instance in which Allah swt, in a manner which seems paradoxical to some narrow minded people, connects his will to the action of His Prophet  (pbuh)

 ... and you did not throw when you threw, rather it was Allah who threw ... . VIII 17.

Edited by mesbah

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@mesbah

 

 

 you were generalizing only one side of the story, "we do not address 

We say peace be upon the Prophet, just as the sahaba said.

 

 

 

 

فَتَمَسَّحَ فُطْرُسُ‏ بِالْحُسَيْنِ ع وَ ارْتَفَعَ وَ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص أَمَا إِنَّ أُمَّتَكَ سَتَقْتُلُهُ- وَ لَهُ عَلَيَّ مُكَافَاةُ أَنْ لَا يَزُورَهُ زَائِرٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَنْهُ وَ لَا يُسَلِّمَ عَلَيْهِ مُسَلِّمٌ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ سَلَامَهُ وَ لَا يُصَلِّيَ عَلَيْهِ مُصَلٍّ إِلَّا بَلَّغْتُهُ عَلَيْهِ صَلَاتَهُ

 

How is this relevant?

 

Does this say the angel conveys the dua/requests of a person to the Imams so that he may intercede for them? Did it say whenever someone requests a prayer from Hussein i will let him know about it?

 

I asked you about

And you failed to bring me 1 narration, that say when you pray to your imam, or ask your imam for help, then the angels convey your request/prayer to the imam.

 

And after you fail to find such a narration, i will make it even easier for you

 

I challenged you to find me one credible scholar from the 12ers who held such a creed.

 

 

And you will never find such a narration, nor scholar, as you believe the Imams are all hearing. This is one of the many reasons why the Ahlu Sunnah declared your group as kuffar. And this takfir has nothing to do with Saudia Arabia.

 

قال ابن حزم الظاهري رحمه الله : ( وأما قولهم ( يعني النصارى ) في دعوى الروافض تبديل القرآن فإن الروافض ليسوا من المسلمين ، إنما هي فرقة حدث أولها بعد موت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بخمس وعشرين سنة .. وهي طائفة تجري مجرى اليهود والنصارى في الكذب والكفر ) . الفصل في الملل والنحل  2 / 213 

 

سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عُبَيْدٍ الْقَاسِمَ بْنَ سَلامٍ ، يَقُولُ : " عَاشَرْتُ النَّاسَ وَكَلَّمْتُ أَهْلَ الْكَلامِ ، وَكَذَا ، فَمَا رَأَيْتُ أَوْسَخَ وَسَخًا ، وَلا أَقْذَرَ قَذَرًا , وَلا أَضْعَفَ حُجَّةً ، وَلا أَحْمَقَ مِنَ الرَّافِضَةِ رقم الحديث: 799 السنة لأبي بكر بن الخلال  جَامِعُ أَمْرِ الرَّافِضَةِ

 

 قل البخاري ما أبالي صليت خلف الجهمي والرافضي، أم صليت خلف اليهود والنصارى، ولا يسلم عليهم، ولا يعادون، ولا يناكحون ، ولا يشهدون، ولا تؤكل ذبائحهم خلق أفعال العباد ص125

 

 أقوال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية   
قال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية -رحمه الله- : « والله يعلم وكفى بالله عليماً، ليس في جميع الطوائف المنتسبة إلى الإسلام مع بدعة وضلالة شر منهم: لا أجهل، ولا أكذب، ولا أظلم ولا أقرب إلى الكفر والفسوق والعصيان، وأبعد عن حقائق الإيمان منهم ».) منهاج السنة 1/160

 

ابن القيم

قال في إغاثة اللهفان: »وأخرج الروافض الإلحاد والكفر، والقدح في سادات الصحابة، وحزب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وأوليائه وأنصاره في قالب محبة أهل البيت والتعصب لهم وموالاتهم».‎ إغاثة اللهفان 2/75. 

Edited by RationalDeen

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Of course you have a rich history of killing innocent Shias, no doubt about it; but currently it is saudi puppets and wahabbi propagandists who hold the honor of fueling sectarianism and hate among the Islamic Umma and serving the interests of their zionist allies.

حسبنا الله و نعم الوکیل

وسیعلم الذین ظلموا ای منقلب ینقلبون

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@saintly jinn

 

 

I have never heard a single Shi'ite scholar worth his salt say this in the manner which you refer.

 

I posted a video of Mohammad reza shirazi right under the claim i made.

 

I dont know how you missed it.

 

 

 

 

such as Ayatollah Fadlallah

We have to keep in mind.

-His views are not mainstream.

-He was attacked even declared a kaffir by several of your scholars.

 

 

Those that do approve of it, however, approve of it on the condition that is understood that it is Allah who is the source of their power

That is not what your scholars say. Your scholars say, the only difference between the Imams and Allah is that Allah created them. Other then that they have power of everything. So when one asks them for something, they from themselves have the power to grant what is requested in prayers. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSKgsoSQ1t4

 

 

You even believe the Imams created you, and are your creators

 

نحن صنائع ربنا والخلق بعد صنائعنا الاحتجاج للطبرسي ص466

 

of both the Sunni and Shi'ite schools

 

Please don't talk about my religion without bringing references. Bring the reference to the things you claimed are found in my books. With Isnad and Tashih.

 

 

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death. --[surah 39:42]

 

Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.--[surah 32:11]

 

Dont cut the verses out of context.

 

It is Allah Who takes away the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep. He keeps those (souls) for which He has ordained death and sends the rest for a term appointed. Verily, in this are signs for a people who think deeply. 39:42
 
This is talking about Sleep. Allah takes the Soul at night, if he returns the soul to you, you will wake up alive. If he doesn't, then you wont wake up.
 
As for 32:11 talks about ripping the soul out of the body at the time of death.
 
You'r argument that the actions of the agent is the same as the action of Allah is therefore not proved by these 2 verses.
 

 

 

Ahlul Bayt are certainly above the ranks of the angels.

Really? Can you prove that from the Quran?

 

 

 

 

Sheikh Tusi records Imam Ali  (as) as having stated:

 
“We are the Work (Creations) of Allah and rest  of the creations are our Work".

 

In Al-Kafi, we read:

 

“Once I was in the presence of (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who began to speak without any question from me. ‘We are the authority of Allah. We are the doors to Allah. We are the tongues of Allah. We are the face of Allah. We are the eyes of Allah in His people. We are the authority in the commandments of Allah among His servants,’”--Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 355, Ch. 23, h7

 

“Hashim ibn abu ‘Ummarah al-Janbiy reported to him this. ‘I heard Amir al-Mu’minin Ali ibn abu Talib, recipient of divine

supreme covenant, saying, “I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hand of Allah. I am the side of Allah. I am the door to Allah.’” --Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 356, Ch. 23, h8

 

 

And this further confirms the divinity of the Imams. I posted the same narration you posted ( i took it from Tabrasi), all creation was the works of the Imams, they are the creators in your religion. They are also the attributes of Allah, making them one with Allah.
 
This is also why you recognize several gods in your religion.
عن أبي عبد الله قال عند الإصابة بالوجع "قل وأنت ساجد: يا الله يا رحمن يا رحيم: يا رب الأرباب وإله الآلهة" الكفي 2ج ص412 بابا الدعاء للعلل والأمراض
 
You'r God is an unity, kind of like the trinity only with 14, it would be a triskaidecanity.
 
And therefore asking Allah or the Imams is the same thing. In the name of Allah or in the name of Imams is the same thing. This is why we find in your books.
 

 وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"الكافي 2/412

 
And this is why you can seek refuge in the Prophet
 

وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"(الكافي 2/412 باب الدعاء للعلل والأمراض

 
The shirk and kufr of asking the Prophet, is nothing compared to what you just brought. And i was happy how open you were with your beliefs. If the trinity is Shirk then what your brought is greater shirk. By Allah the monotheism in the trinity is greater then in what you just stated, and christians are more muwahidene than you are if you hold those believes you stated.

 

 

 

well explained, Jazaka Allah.

I'd like to add one more explicit instance in which Allah swt, in a manner which seems paradoxical to some narrow minded people, connects his will to the action of His Prophet  (pbuh)

 ... and you did not throw when you threw, rather it was Allah who threw ... . VIII 17.

This also does not support the agent hypothesis of your friend.

 

The meaning of the verse is simply this, it is not because of the power of the believers and their

strength that they killed the mushriks, who were many while the believers were few. Rather, it is Allah 
gave you victory over them. And the same goes for the throwing part.
 
The meaning of this verse is the same of 3:123
 
And Allah has already made you victorious at Badr, when you were a weak little force. 

Really? What about this?



Here is a character witness for the speaker in that video, Sayyid Muhammad Ridha Shirazi:

 

I posted the same video of Mohammad reza shirazi, but without subtitles. I dont think he understands arabic, and thats why he made the statement. Unless he wants to say that Mohammad reza shirazi is worthless

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Accusing shias for commiting shirk is a enough reason to get banned. May Allah swt guide you.

I am not accusing. Saintly_Jinn23 put out his creed plainly in text. And if i broke a forum rule. Then i kindly ask the Mod to inform me, or to send me a warning. And if i receive such a warning. I will stop posting in this thread.

 

The definition of Shirk is: The worship of anyone or anything other than Allah.

And dua is a form of worship.

So calling upon Ali is by definition shirk. And to the side, you attribute "all-hearing" to Ali.

 

As for what Saintly_Jinn23 said, and Wilayat al takwin, and the imams creating creation. If that is not shirk, then shirk does not exist.

 

Ali-F are you telling me you dont see this as shirk?
 
Edited by RationalDeen

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I am not accusing. Saintly_Jinn23 put out his creed plainly in text. And if i broke a forum rule. Then i kindly ask the Mod to inform me, or to send me a warning. And if i receive such a warning. I will stop posting in this thread.

 

The definition of Shirk is: The worship of anyone or anything other than Allah.

And dua is a form of worship.

So calling upon Ali is by definition shirk. And to the side, you attribute "all-hearing" to Ali.

 

As for what Saintly_Jinn23 said, and Wilayat al takwin, and the imams creating creation. If that is not shirk, then shirk does not exist.

 

Ali-F are you telling me you dont see this as shirk?
 

 

 

You know that even sunnis perform tawasul?  

 

I am not interested in debating this issue with you, rather I want to tell you that accusing shias (if you do that) that they worship the Imams is something great to say.

 

And, no offence, but aren't you Al-Magrhibi?

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@Ali-F

 

 

You know that even sunnis perform tawasul?  

 

 

Tawasul bi asma wa sifaat.
Tawasul bi af3al.
Tawasul bi al hay.
 
However for those who say Ya Muhammad, Ya Abd al Qader. Ya so and so. Then they commit shirk aswell.
 

 

 

I want to tell you that accusing shias (if you do that) that they worship the Imams is something great to say.

 

What do you mean by worship?

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@Ali-F

 

 

Tawasul bi asma wa sifaat.
Tawasul bi af3al.
Tawasul bi al hay.
 
However for those who say Ya Muhammad, Ya Abd al Qader. Ya so and so. Then they commit shirk aswell.
 

 

What do you mean by worship?

 

 

Dont you say that shias worship the Imams?

 

 

btw: I was in a facebook discussion page, and you know what? Even a sunni said that they performed tawasuel by saying "ya"... I don't know? Are you a salafi? If yes, then that will explain the whole thing. I can't believe that you are a sunni!

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It is interesting how people exaggerate what Shirk actually is.

 

FYI, during the dawn of Islam, there were many pagans and open mushriks around, so in order to stop that, they were taught that you mustn't worship any other, other than Allah SWT. That is what it comes down to on a very basic level. Are you worshiping someone, other than Allah SWT....? The answer to this is almost always obvious.

 

Now people are saying doing a dua via someone (not TO that someone), is Shirk, because that is worship? Absurd.

 

The traditional Shia and Sunni scholars have know problem with it, please spare us the nonsense of the 'school' of anthropomorphism and I fast look forward to the destruction of this cult.

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It is interesting how people exaggerate what Shirk actually is.

FYI, during the dawn of Islam, there were many pagans and open mushriks around, so in order to stop that, they were taught that you mustn't worship any other, other than Allah SWT. That is what it comes down to on a very basic level. Are you worshiping someone, other than Allah SWT....? The answer to this is almost always obvious.

Define worship.

Now people are saying doing a dua via someone (not TO that someone), is Shirk, because that is worship? Absurd.

The traditional Shia and Sunni scholars have know problem with it, please spare us the nonsense of the 'school' of anthropomorphism and I fast look forward to the destruction of this cult.

If someone did make dua to the Imams and asked the Imams to help them from their own power, then would that be shirk? Edited by Haydar Husayn

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We don't have supplications to get power from the Imams.

 

Imams/Prophets are the best of Allah's creation, asking them for assistance does not mean they will assist you directly, but because they are so close to Allah they can help you through as the aforementioned posts have discussed, through intercession.

 

Definition

Intercession: the act of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.

 

Just like asking the smartest student in a classroom for tips, because they know the material well.

We ask the Aimmah/Prophets for guidance because they were sent to this earth with knowledge beyond our own.

 

Many people would be mushrik if what you are saying is true, because people often say things like, "Pray for me" which is not shirk.

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We don't have supplications to get power from the Imams.

 

Imams/Prophets are the best of Allah's creation, asking them for assistance does not mean they will assist you directly, but because they are so close to Allah they can help you through as the aforementioned posts have discussed, through intercession.

 

Definition

Intercession: the act of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.

 

Just like asking the smartest student in a classroom for tips, because they know the material well.

We ask the Aimmah/Prophets for guidance because they were sent to this earth with knowledge beyond our own.

 

Many people would be mushrik if what you are saying is true, because people often say things like, "Pray for me" which is not shirk.

Ok, but let's say someone did ask the Imams to help them directly, would that be shirk?

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Even if you could it would still be no. You are not praying to them, you are asking for Allah's help through them

 

You are ONLY asking for help. Ya Ali Madad=O Ali Assist Me.

 

We all face the Kaaba and pray to Allah no one else.

 

"You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek" Holy Quran Surah Hamd Aya 5

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Even if you could it would still be no. You are not praying to them, you are asking for Allah's help through them

 

You are ONLY asking for help. Ya Ali Madad=O Ali Assist Me.

 

We all face the Kaaba and pray to Allah no one else.

 

"You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek" Holy Quran Surah Hamd Aya 5

So if you say something like "O `Ali, cure me of my illness", while having the intention that it is Imam `Ali (as) who is helping you through his power, then that isn't shirk?

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So if you say something like "O `Ali, cure me of my illness", while having the intention that it is Imam `Ali (as) who is helping you through his power, then that isn't shirk?

 

Nope, his power came from Allah.

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So why all this nonsense about how people don't ask from the Imams (as), but are simply asking them to ask Allah? Just be honest and say you pray to the Imams to help you themselves.

 

Just a preferable method. No nonsense. Nothing wrong with either way. Call on Allah directly, Call on Allah through the truth of His representatives, Call on the Ahlulbayt directly. The point is, it is Allah who is ultimately the giver and sustainer. :)

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Just a preferable method. No nonsense. Nothing wrong with either way. Call on Allah directly, Call on Allah through the truth of His representatives, Call on the Ahlulbayt directly. The point is, it is Allah who is ultimately the giver and sustainer. :)

So why do so many people here try to downplay calling on the Ahlulbayt directly then? For example, in an earlier post, we read: "Imams/Prophets are the best of Allah's creation, asking them for assistance does not mean they will assist you directly, but because they are so close to Allah they can help you through as the aforementioned posts have discussed, through intercession."

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So why do so many people here try to downplay calling on the Ahlulbayt directly then? For example, in an earlier post, we read: "Imams/Prophets are the best of Allah's creation, asking them for assistance does not mean they will assist you directly, but because they are so close to Allah they can help you through as the aforementioned posts have discussed, through intercession."

 

How is that downplaying? Even asking Allah directly it is not certain your prayer will be answered.

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How is that downplaying? Even asking Allah directly it is not certain your prayer will be answered.

I don't think you understood what I meant. My question is why is it when someone accuses the Shia of making dua to the Imams (as), people say that it's not true, and Shias are simply asking the Imams to ask Allah for them. Why say that if there is nothing wrong with asking the Imams directly, and when we know that many people do in fact ask the Imams directly?

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I don't think you understood what I meant. My question is why is it when someone accuses the Shia of making dua to the Imams (as), people say that it's not true, and Shias are simply asking the Imams to ask Allah for them. Why say that if there is nothing wrong with asking the Imams directly, and when we know that many people do in fact ask the Imams directly?

 

Because those who do accuse, accuse unjustly and wrongly. What the problem the "accusers" have, is they intentionally imply it in a way where it seems as if shias commit shirk when it is far from it. Like how you just put it. You say it in a way where you are making it seem as if Shias believe the imams are independent from Allah. This is very unfair, and clearly false accusation.

 

Besides as I mentioned before, everyone has their own method. You will get different methods. You are just wrongly generalizing.

Edited by PureEthics

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Because those who do accuse, accuse unjustly and wrongly. What the problem the "accusers" have, is they intentionally imply it in a way where it seems as if shias commit shirk when it is far from it. Like how you just put it. You say it in a way where you are making it seem as if Shias believe the imams are independent from Allah. This is very unfair, and clearly false accusation.

 

Besides as I mentioned before, every has their own method. You will get different methods. You are just wrongly generalizing.

So why not just say "Yes, some of us do call on the Imams to help us directly, but we do not believe they act independently of Allah." Wouldn't that be easier, and more truthful?

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So why not just say "Yes, some of us do call on the Imams to help us directly, but we do not believe they act independently of Allah." Wouldn't that be easier, and more truthful?

 

Why are you telling me this? Again, just in case your eyes didnt catch what I said, some dont ask the imams directly, some do, you will get different answers on their beliefs. You CANNOT generalize.

Edited by PureEthics

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Why are you telling me this? Again, just in case your eyes didnt catch what I said, some dont ask the imams directly, some do, you will get different answers on their beliefs. You CANNOT generalize.

I'm not generalising. If anything, it's people who deny that any Shia calls on the Imams to help directly that are generalising. Read my last post again, and just answer the question.

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Br. Haydar Husayn, do you ask a doctor to help you when you're sick? Yes.

Is he alive? Yes. Is Imaam Alee` (a.s) alive? Yes, as per Holy Qur'aan.

When you ask the doctor are you supplicating to him (Du'a)? No. Because supplication is an act of worship.

Asking for help isn't supplication.

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