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In the Name of God بسم الله

Help With This Month Of Ramadan Hadith?

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علي بن محمد، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن محمد بن عيسى [ بن عبيد ]، عن إبراھيم ابن محمد المدني، عن عمران الزعفراني
قال: قلت لابي عبد لله (عليه السلام): إن السماء تطبق علينا بالعراق [ اليوم ] واليومين والثلاثة فأي يوم نصوم؟ قال: أنظر اليوم
الذي صمت من السنة الماضية وصم يوم الخامس.

Ali bin Muhammad, from some of our companions, from Muhammad bin Isa, from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Madani, from Amran al-Za'farani, he said: I said to Abi Abdillah(as): The sky is usually overcast in Iraq for 2 or 3 days, so which day do we fast? He said "recall which day of the last year you observed the fast (of month of Ramazan), then add five days (to that day) and start observing fast (from that day)."

 

 محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن أحمد، عن العباس بن معروف، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن محمد بن عثمان الخدري، عن بعض

مشايخه، عن أبي عبد لله (عليه السلام) قال: صم في العام المستقبل يوم الخامس من يوم صمت فيه عام أول.

Imam Abi Abdillah(as) said: "Fast on the 5th day, after adding 5 days to the previous year’s first day of the month of Ramazan". 

 

Ramadan of last year started on the 9th of July(night of the 8th). 

So what does that make it this year, if we add 5 days  :huh: Kinda confused. 

Edited by robbenmessi1010
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Add 6 more days of the creation of universe if you comparing it with solar calendar and in a leap year add another day

So you begin tomorrow that is Sunday. Tonight will be the start of the first.

'remember that this is for overcast conditions and in clear conditions you sight the moon

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:lol: sorry it makes me laugh. Funny, that you do not believe in marja taqlid yet you cannot even figure out when ramadan is o_O sorry had to post this. Oh, these are not the only two hadiths in figuring out when ramadan is. There are specific hadiths in moon sighting. I dont know how you wouldnt know for someone who follows his own rulings. Anyway, may Allah help you figure it out. Or stop with this arrogance, and follow a marja. Makes your religion less dubious.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics
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:lol: sorry it makes me laugh. Funny, that you do not believe in marja taqlid yet you cannot even figure out when ramadan is o_O sorry had to post this. Oh, these are not the only two hadiths in figuring out when ramadan is. There are specific hadiths in moon sighting. I dont know how you wouldnt know for someone who follows his own rulings. Anyway, may Allah help you figure it out. Or stop with this arrogance, and follow a marja. Makes your religion less dubious.

 

(wasalam)

I was expecting your post to come soon.

 

It makes me laugh that you find this laughable. And yes, I have read the hadiths about moon sighting. Did the imams tell us to refer to a marja in knowing the month of Ramadan, or did they give us certain orders on how to know it?! The laugh is on you, not on me. 

Edited by robbenmessi1010
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It makes me laugh that you find this laughable. And yes, I have read the hadiths about moon sighting. Did the imams tell us to refer to a marja in knowing the month of Ramadan, or did they give us certain orders on how to know it?! The laugh is on you, not on me. 

 

lol its funny because you think marjas know less then you. You are arrogantly ignoring the fact that they deduce these rulings based off of hadith. Hence, I told you about it. Anyway do what you want, I just wanted to help you realize your mistakes. If you disregard them, your choice. Ramadan Mubarak!

 

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lol its funny because you think marjas know less then you. You are arrogantly ignoring the fact that they deduce these rulings based off of hadith. Hence, I told you about it. Anyway do what you want, I just wanted to help you realize your mistakes. If you disregard them, your choice. Ramadan Mubarak!

Well, that's fine. I'm reading a book including all hadiths on fasting and Ramadan :)  Shahr Mubarak to you too brother. 

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Pure, so I take it that the lay man should never ever study religion for himself? He should just blindly accept the rulings of those that have more knowledge and never learn the reasons behind those rulings ever? Makes me wonder how the maraji' gained all their knowledge if they aren't allowed to study for themselves and just had to accept what their marja` told them. I mean, they weren't born scholars, were they? They had to learn at some point, maybe? So maybe, just maybe learning about religion isn't so haraam and you should stop criticizing people for trying to learn?

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(bismillah)

Pure, so I take it that the lay man should never ever study religion for himself? He should just blindly accept the rulings of those that have more knowledge and never learn the reasons behind those rulings ever? Makes me wonder how the maraji' gained all their knowledge if they aren't allowed to study for themselves and just had to accept what their marja` told them. I mean, they weren't born scholars, were they? They had to learn at some point, maybe? So maybe, just maybe learning about religion isn't so haraam and you should stop criticizing people for trying to learn?

 

It's called the Hawza. Go to it.

 

في أمان الله

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(bismillah)

It's called the Hawza. Go to it.

في أمان الله

You tend to answer a lot of people's questions (particularly in the Sunni/Shia forum) with your own knowledge and by using the Qur`an and aHadeeth. I recommend you stop. Just tell everybody to go to the hawza instead.

New revert: How do I pray?

Answer: Go to hawza.

Or, if you're not willing to be so extreme, perhaps you could explain why you are so harsh with me in particular? Br. Robben asked a question about some aHadeeth and Pure and yourself act like it's a sin to study them.

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Pure, so I take it that the lay man should never ever study religion for himself? He should just blindly accept the rulings of those that have more knowledge and never learn the reasons behind those rulings ever? Makes me wonder how the maraji' gained all their knowledge if they aren't allowed to study for themselves and just had to accept what their marja` told them. I mean, they weren't born scholars, were they? They had to learn at some point, maybe? So maybe, just maybe learning about religion isn't so haraam and you should stop criticizing people for trying to learn?

 

Who said you should never study the religion? The point is, self learning the religion is erroneous. It is not a simple task. Unless you have a pint of knowledge of what Marja's have, learning the reason behind those rulings would still do you no good. Its common sense. You make it seem as if marjas became marjas over night. You do realize some rulings research are STILL ONGOING. So how do you expect to learn the reasoning behind rulings, or the ones that took about 5+ years of research? Besides, they do give out their books and research material but its not understandable to a laymen. Heck I cant even understand arabic so how do you expect me to understand ijtihad? All you on this site are mostly western born muslims so I doubt you know arabic or farsi unless you were born within that culture, even then it is still probably questionable. IT takes TIME. Some cannot even understand the oneness of God yet, and you expect people to derive their own fatwas and laws through the science of hadith that they dont even understand? People who are anti taqlid or always bring up these irrational arguments of "blind following" will always depend on our scholars and their knowledge yet they consider properly learning it in a howza senseless. Heck, with due respect to messi he asked to find gradings of hadith books recently. That is still blind following, for the reasoning behind why its graded that way isnt put and it isnt a simple answer. This is what you all fail to realize. If you want to learn the religion learn it the proper way, at a facility that has credibility and trustworthiness. Not based on your own limited mind and opinion. It isnt learning ABC's, its like rocket science.

Edited by PureEthics
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(salam)

(bismillah)
 

 

I believe you are misinterpreting this hadith, it could mean that last year the first of Shahr Ramadan started Tuesday, July 9th, 2013, and if you add five days of the week meaning Tuesday + 5 (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then Sunday), it means that you fast on the Sunday which would be the fifth day.

 

Since you know Arabic:

علي بن محمد، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن محمد بن عيسى [ بن عبيد ]، عن إبراھيم ابن محمد المدني، عن عمران الزعفراني
قال: قلت لابي عبد لله (عليه السلام): إن السماء تطبق علينا بالعراق [ اليوم ] واليومين والثلاثة فأي يوم نصوم؟ قال: أنظر اليوم
الذي صمت من السنة الماضية وصم يوم الخامس.

Ali bin Muhammad, from some of our companions, from Muhammad bin Isa, from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Madani, from Amran al-Za'farani, he said: I said to Abi Abdillah(as): The sky is usually overcast in Iraq for 2 or 3 days, so which day do we fast? He said "recall which day of the last year you observed the fast (of month of Ramazan), then add five days (to that day) and start observing fast (from that day)."

Here is what al-Toosi has said in his al-Istibsaar, vol. 2, pg. 76-77 after narrating this hadith:

فَلَا يُنَافِي هَذَانِ الْخَبَرَانِ مَا قَدَّمْنَاهُ فِي الْعَمَلِ عَلَى الرُّؤْيَةِ لِمِثْلِ مَا قَدَّمْنَاهُ فِي الْبَابِ الْأَوَّلِ مِنْ أَنَّهُمَا خَبَرٌ وَاحِدٌ لَا يُوجِبَانِ عِلْماً وَ لَا عَمَلًا وَ لِأَنَّ رَاوِيَهُمَا عِمْرَانُ الزَّعْفَرَانِيُّ وَ هُوَ مَجْهُولٌ وَ فِي إِسْنَادِ الْحَدِيثَيْنِ قَوْمٌ ضُعَفَاءُ لَا نَعْمَلُ بِمَا يَخْتَصُّونَ بِرِوَايَتِهِ وَ لَوْ سَلِمَ مِنْ ذَلِكَ كُلِّهِ لَمْ يَكُنْ مُنَافِياً لِلْقَوْلِ بِالرُّؤْيَةِ بَلْ يُؤَكِّدُ الْقَوْلَ فِيهَا لِأَنَّهُ لَوْ كَانَ الْمُرَاعَى الْعَدَدَ لَوَجَبَ الرُّجُوعُ إِلَيْهِ وَ لَمْ يُرْجَعْ إِلَى السَّنَةِ الْمَاضِيَةِ وَ أَنْ يُعَدَّ مِنْهَا خَمْسَةُ أَيَّامٍ لِأَنَّ الْكَلَامَ فِي السَّنَةِ الْمَاضِيَةِ وَ أَنَّهُ بِأَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ يُعْلَمُ الشَّهْرُ فِيهَا مِثْلُ الْكَلَامِ فِي السَّنَةِ الْحَاضِرَةِ فَلَا بُدَّ أَنْ يُسْتَنَدَ ذَلِكَ إِلَى الرُّؤْيَةِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْخَبَرِ فَائِدَةٌ وَ تَكُونُ الْفَائِدَةُ فِي الْخَبَرَيْنِ أَنَّهُ يَنْبَغِي أَنْ يَصُومَ الْإِنْسَانُ إِذَا كَانَ حَالُهُ مَا تَضَمَّنَهُ الْخَبَرَانِ يَوْمَ الْخَامِسِ مِنَ السَّنَةِ الْمَاضِيَةِ احْتِيَاطاً وَ يَنْوِيَ بِهِ الصَّوْمَ مِنْ شَعْبَانَ إِذَا لَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ دَلِيلٌ عَلَى أَنَّهُ مِنْ رَمَضَانَ عَلَى جِهَةِ الْقَطْعِ ثُمَّ يُرَاعِيَ فِيمَا بَعْدُ فَإِنِ انْكَشَفَ لَهُ أَنَّهُ كَانَ مِنْ رَمَضَانَ فَقَدْ أَجْزَأَهُ وَ إِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ كَانَ صَوْمُهُ نَافِلَةً يَسْتَحِقُّ بِهِ الثَّوَابَ

Here is what al-Hilli in his al-Mu`tabar fee Sharh al-Mukhtasar, vol. 2, pg. 689 says about this hadith:

و هذه الروايات شاذة، و العمل بها نادر، فلا يعول عليها

 

al-Hilli in his Tadhkirah al-Fuquhaa', vol. 6, pg. 141:

و الأول مرسل. و في طريق الثاني: سهل بن زياد، و هو ضعيف مع أنّ عمران الزعفراني مجهول.

 

(salam)

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Yes, I was wondering what the narration meant, because it is quite strange. The ahadith mention that you do this when it is overcast or there are clouds and you cant see anything. Very rarely should this be used. Anyways, I'm fasting yawm al-Shakk(Day of Doubt), so there aren't any worries or doubt.

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It's better not to post these ahadith in an open forum like this, because it will cause confusion with some people who don't understand it and will opt to weaken it instead (like they weaken every other hadith they don't agree with), which itself is another problem. 

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