Caution Against A Facebook Shia Group

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

InshaAllah all are doing well.

 

In recent days, I have stumbled upon a group on FB that is controlled by a group of Shias from the sub-continent. To say the least, they exhibit very deviant beliefs. Examples:

1. saying JJH for Imams (as) instead of (as)

2. saying inshaAli instead of inshaAllah

3. saying the Imams (as) don't die (reason: they are the faces of Allah, so understanding concepts only literally)

4. cursing and labelling any who oppose them as muqassireen and kuffar

5. disregarding all Ulema, mujtahideen as incompetent people who are against the Ahl al Bayt (as) 

These beliefs are then regurgitated and fed to young, unsuspecting, and uninformed Shias, and due to this I have seen an increase in the number of people adopting such beliefs. I have attached photos from the group, but since they are in Urdu, only Indians or Pakistanis would understand. (If mods think it's better to move this topic to the Urdu section, I would understand).

I just wanted to warn our community here not to be influenced by people in this group. I was also wondering if some of the Pakistani and Indian members here should take up a stand against the group, but I am unsure. I tried myself to debate and discuss, but it was evident that the founders/administrators of the group are young and sickeningly arrogant. So I am not sure what benefits, if any, would be achieved if people debate them, and I don't want our brothers and sisters from SC to waste their time and energies, only to be mistreated and abused.

Anyway, just cautioning against such groups and people. This is the group, and following are some snapshots from posts at the group.



















Thank you for your time.

(wasalam)

[baqar 1,148]

1. saying JJH for Imams (as) instead of (as)

 

WHat is JJH   ?

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)
 

WHat is JJH   ?

 

Pardon me, I should have explained: Jalla Jalalahu, as we use for Allah.

If I may translate a hadith that was once posted at the group:



The hadith says: We, the Ahl al Bayt (as) are the owners of all the names of Allah. We are aware of all the secrets of Allah, and are the owners of all of them. We are a part of Allah (nauzhubillah), our ranks are as high as those of Allah's. Allah has bestowed upon His prophet  (pbuh) and the ahl al bayt (as) all of His powers.

Reference: Uloom-e-Imamiyya, mo'allif: Agha Hussain Sarshori

I don't have the resources to check this reference, but you can imagine how literally this hadith can be understood by some people, if this hadith is in fact a hadith of the Ahl al Bayt (as).

 

(wasalam)

[baqar 1,148]

Pardon me, I should have explained: Jalla Jalalahu, as we use for Allah.

 

 

Thanks

 

The hadith says: We, the Ahl al Bayt (as) are the owners of all the names of Allah. We are aware of all the secrets of Allah, and are the owners of all of them. We are a part of Allah (nauzhubillah), our ranks are as high as those of Allah's. Allah has bestowed upon His prophet  (pbuh) and the ahl al bayt (as) all of His powers.

 

 

I am 100% sure that that translation is incorrect.

 

That  is simply ridiculous 

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)


I agree.

From what I have observed over a few weeks from the group:

1. They frequently cite dubious sources for ahadith, particularly Urdu books that are cheaply available in countries like Pakistan and India. These are written by 'scholars' about whom not much is known even in Pakistan or India.
2. They frequently cite www.hubeali.com.
3. Any rejection of ahadith which indicate ghulu is akin to disregarding the words of Aimma (as). So a person questioning such ahadith is a muqassir.
4. If any ulemas' views are presented in which they clarify that the hadith in question does not have strong matn and sanad, they accuse the ulema of being hypocrites, kuffar, and muqassireen.
5. Their knowledge about Arabic, Qur'an, Ahadith, and Shia Islam is shamefully shallow.

I may share further posts to give an idea, inshaAllah.

(wasalam)
 

[HamzaTR 1,078]

wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah. I am not into FB things but I saw this good page before:

 

http://www.facebook.com/TeamMahdiGlobalMedia

 

You can refer people to this page so they can learn. ma salam

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

HamzaTR

Thank you, akh.

 

I did direct the members of the group to such pages. However, as is the case unfortunately, many people there simply do not understand much of English, or are more comfortable communicating in Urdu. They take the group under question as a 'one-stop shop' to religious knowledge (I suspect many would not even be capable of researching on the Internet).

 

Since the administrators of the group themselves are deviated, the problem is only exacerbated.

 

As such, I think either we warn the young ones of our community (especially Pakistanis and Indians) or we debate them. The latter is already tried, with no success.

 

(wasalam)
 

[Ali_Hussain 5,522]

(salam)

 

A relative of mine come over from Pakistan recently, and one day of of the blue he said that there are too many muqassirs around today, and he asked me if there were many in England, when I asked him for his definition of muqassir, he said that it is anyone who recites their tashahud without the testifying to the wilaya of Imam Ali (a) (he doesn't pray at all), when I tried to explain that hardly anyone does that, in essence making the whole sect muqassirs, he said that is the fault of "that ba***rd Dhakoo" ....

 

The more time I spend with him, the more I am amazed. Although I don't think that it is a great excuse, the reason is clearly just lack of education, both academic and religious, and too many evil and ignorant men leading the community astray.

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(wasalam)

Ali_Hussain

Thank you, brother, for your input.

Yes, I agree with your assessment. I had only recently witnessed such behaviour from certain Shias - it was a shock to me. One could have imagined that people from villages may be ignorant, but the administrators of the group I linked to are all from major cities of Pakistan. One of them even lives close to the Jami'a al Muntazhar, in Lahore.

In my understanding of the situation so far, the zakireen at our majalis also seem to have a large role in confusing the masses. Add to this websites like hubeali.com that present an utterly myopic view of our deen... Very, disturbing.

God have mercy on us and protect us from deviance.

(wasalam)

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mikael

[robbenmessi1010 217]

 

Pardon me, I should have explained: Jalla Jalalahu, as we use for Allah.

Astaghfirullah. Total shirk. 

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,400]

There stance against Shias like us is the same as that of Nasibis against Shias. Therefore, i often observed that "Kharjiyat" is not a religion. Its an attitude. There may be Sunni kharji and Shia kharji branding other muslims as deviant kafirs muqassars or mushriks.

[kim.tinkerbell 1,252]

Salam,

Why dont the urdu speaking people enlighten these people. They can open a fb page explaining things. Do these people kill anyone that doesnt believe in what they believe? Am gussing no and if so they should just be directed.

I have to say thou,that bit you translated about ahulbayat (as) knowning Allahs secrets,doesnt add up and most logical people would know that.

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

^ Thank you for the comment, sister.

We approached another page that is dedicated to refuting such groups. I pasted ahadith from Qa'im's FB page too, to attract others. But I think there is more to the group that makes it attractive: the ease of communicating with each other in the group in a native tongue and the network opportunities that are provided to people of a specific age group (teenagers). I think due to these reasons, this group is more attractive than other groups or pages devoted to refuting ghuluw.

In addition, the group provides a very simplistic understanding of our religion, which can be readily acquired by unsuspecting folks. They view it more as a place to connect and chat with other people, in the process learning about religion. I don't suppose most would bother researching about religion from other pages/websites, since they feel such research is readily available in the group.

Here is a hadith that they have posted recently:



They have added the jeem themselves, to say jall jalalahu. Some uninformed people would notice this, ask why this has been placed, and they would probably start 'explaining' why this is correct to do.

(wasalam)

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mikael

[robbenmessi1010 217]

Imam Ali(as) said: "Two kinds of people will be damned on my account: those who form exaggerated opinion about me and those who under-estimate me because they hate me."

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

Robinmessi

Thank you for the hadith, brother. 

 

------

 

 

I have delved further into the group, its posts, some of the references they use, and the 'logical' conclusions that they draw from ahadith. I will update this thread soon, inshaAllah.

 

(wasalam)

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Brother SyedMahdiAli 

 

I have been trying to understand the point of view of our opponents, as were presented in the group under discussion. The following is what I have gathered thus far, and I seek God's protection from failure in understanding:

 

 

The proposition: To say JJH (جل جلاله) after mentioning any of the Masumeen (as)

 

 

The assumption: JJH - جل جلاله - is an attribute of Allah عز و جل.

 

 

Argument from a hadith: 

 

 حدّثنا أحمد بن محمّد بن عيسى  ، عن أحمد بن محمّد بن أبي نصر ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن سعد بن طريف ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : كنّا عنده ثمانية رجال فذكرنا رمضان ، فقال : « لا تقولوا هذا رمضان ، ولا جاء رمضان ، ولا ذهب رمضان ( فإنّ رمضان اسم من أسماء الله لا يجيء ولايذهب ، وإنّما يجيء ويذهب الزائل ، ولكن قولوا : شهر رمضان )  ، فالشهر المضاف إلى الاسم ، والإسم إسم الله وهو الشهر الذي اُنزل فيه القرآن ، جعله الله عزّ وجلّ مثلاً  وعيداً.

 ألا ومن خرج في شهر رمضان من بيته في سبيل الله ـ ونحن سبيل الله الذي من دخل فيه يطاف بالحصن ، والحصن هو الإمام ، فليكبّر عند رؤيته ـ كانت له يوم القيامة صخرة في ميزانه أثقل من السماوات السبع والأرضين السبع وما فيهنّ وما بينهنّ وما تحتهنّ 

 فقلت : يا أبا جعفر وما الميزان ؟ فقال : « إنّك قد ازددت قوة ونظراً ، يا سعد : رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) الصخرة ونحن الميزان ، وذلك قول الله عزّ وجلّ في الإمام ( ليقوم الناسُ بالقسط ). 

    قال : ومن كبّر بين يدي الإمام وقال : لا إله إلاّ الله وحده لا شريك له ، كتب الله له رضوانه الأكبر ، ومن يكتب الله له رضوانه الأكبر يجمع بينه وبين ابراهيم ومحمّد ( عليهما السلام ) والمرسلين في دار الجلال » ، فقلت : وما دار الجلال ؟ فقال : « نحن الدار وذلك قول الله عزّ وجلّ ( تلك الدارُ الآخرةُ نجعلها للذين لايريدون علوّاً في الأرض ولا فساداً والعاقبة للمتّقين )  ( فنحن العاقبة يا سعد ، وأمّا مودّتنا للمتّقين ، )  فيقول الله عزّ وجلّ ( تبارك اسمُ ربّك ذي الجلال والإكرام )  فنحن جلال الله وكرامته التي أكرم الله تبارك وتعالى العباد بطاعتنا

 

Imam Baqir (as) said: We are the jalal of Allah and His karamat - due to us Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, honours servants who obey us. (Reference)

 

Their rhetoric: Momin is also an attribute of Allah's. Yet we use it for people too, when calling somebody a momin. So why can we not use جل جلاله for the Aimma (as)? Are we more deserving of such titles than them?

 

 

---------------

 

 

In response, it can be simply clarified that جل جلاله is not an attribute. It is a phrase, as are سبحانه و تعالى, and عز و جل. Given the meaning of جل جلاله (exalted be their glory), if one says جل جلاله after mentioning a Masoom (as), it means the person is praising the glory of the Masoom (as), as one would praise God's glory. But why would a person praise a Masoom's glory while none of their companions did, and neither did Masumeen (as) preach it?

 

On the contrary, the Masumeen (as) taught and themselves practiced humility in front of God, and this is in part what distinguishes them. Their lofty status is due to their servanthood under Allah. Any attempt to 'increase' their status by means of negating or neglecting their servanthood would be a zhulm upon the Masumeen (as). This is considered ghuluw.

 

To copy some ahadith of our Imams (as) from this thread:

 

Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya'qub bin Yazid from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ibn al-Mughira who said: I was with Abi al-Hasan عليه السلام together with Yahya bin Abdallah bin al-Hasan, so Yahya said to him: may I be made your ransom, they think that you know the Ghayb (unseen), so he عليه السلام said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, put your hand upon my hair, for by Allah - there is not a hair in my body nor upon my head except that it has stood (i.e. in apprehension of their false claim), he (Ibn al-Mughira) said: then he عليه السلام said: no by Allah, it (i.e. the glimpses of the unseen) is not but an inheritance from the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم.

 

Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya’qub from Ibn Abi Umayr from Shuayb from Abi Basir who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام – they do say, he said: and what do they say? I said: they say that you know the number of the drops in the rain, and the number of the stars, and the number of leaves in all the trees, and the weight of what is in the ocean, and the number of sand particles, so he عليه السلام raised his hand to the sky and said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, no by Allah, no one knows this except for Allah.

 

Ibrahim bin Muhammad bin al-Abbas who said: narrated to me Ahmad bin Idris al-Qummiy from Hamdan bin Sulayman from Muhammad bin al-Husayn from Ibn Fadhal from Abi al-Maghra from Anbasa who said: Abu Abdillah عليه السلام said: we have woken up (i.e. a time has reached) and there is no one who is more inimical (and enemy to us) than those who claim to love us.

(The Imam is referring to the ghulaat)

 

And they both (i.e. Hamdawayh and Ibrahim) said: narrated to us al-Ubaydi from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hisham bin Salim from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام – and the Ghulat had been mentioned – so he عليه السلام said: from among them is one who lies so well that even the Shaytan needs (i.e. makes use of) his lies (in his separate schemes).

 

 

 

As for the argument of our opponents that since we use momin to refer to human beings too - momin, which is also an attribute of Allah's - it is apt to use جل جلاله with Imams (as): The meaning of 'momin' in both cases is different, and so is their use. When used for people, it means we are describing a person whose heart has faith. When used for God, it is used to mean that He is the giver of peace.

 

 

And Allah knows best.

----------------

 

 

If any more knowledgeable member would like to elaborate more to deal with the arguments of those thinking it is proper to use جل جلاله with Imams (as), they are welcome to do so.

 

Brother SyedMahdiAli, please let us know if your question has been answered to your satisfaction. I may include more arguments of the other side if I get to learn about them, God willing.

 

 

----------------

 

 

In addition to the deviation preached by some members of the aforementioned group, I recently noticed another in which people are saying that Allah is nothing without the Masumeen, and the Masumeen (as) are nothing without Allah. The discussion was originally about whom we could prostrate ourselves to.

 

 

(wasalam)

 

[iraqi_shia 681]

There will always be lay people that drift from the path, I suppose in an islamic state that would be kept in track by the masses.

 

Do they have any well trained scholars that are active in their language/areas?

[IbnSohan 1,717]

May Allah reward you the best of rewards for your efforts.

[Mikael 72]

(salam)
(bismillah)

Another recent deviance in the group:



This post unfortunately received about 40 likes. But alhamdolillah there was resistance against it too.

According to some posters of the group, the Holy Prophet (s) is reported to have said:

 

He who has been referred by the word rab in the Holy Qur'an is Ali (as).

The posters then use this statement to say that Ali (as) is the khaliq, raaziq, maalik, and rab al 'aalameen.

 

أَسْتَغْفِرُ اللَّهَ 

سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

 

The Masumeen (as) are free of having said any such thing.

 

(wasalam)
 

[IbnSohan 1,717]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Another recent deviance in the group:

5.jpg

This post unfortunately received about 40 likes. But alhamdolillah there was resistance against it too.

According to some posters of the group, the Holy Prophet (s) is reported to have said:

 

He who has been referred by the word rab in the Holy Qur'an is Ali (as).

The posters then use this statement to say that Ali (as) is the khaliq, raaziq, maalik, and rab al 'aalameen.

 

أَسْتَغْفِرُ اللَّهَ 

سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

 

The Masumeen (as) are free of having said any such thing.

 

(wasalam)

 

If brother Islamic Salvation is OK with it, his efforts in translating Rijal AlKashi can be helpful in showing the attitude of Ahlulbayt towards these deviations

 

 

حمدويه و إبراهيم ابنا نصير قالا حدثنا محمد بن عيسى، عن صفوان عن مرازم، قال : قال لي أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام) تعرف مبشر بشير، بتوهم الاسم، الشعيري، فقلت بشار قال بشار قلت نعم جار لي، قال إن اليهود قالوا و وحدوا الله و إن النصارى قالوا و وحدوا الله و إن بشارا قال عظيما، إذا قدمت الكوفة فأته و قل له يقول لك جعفر يا كافر يا فاسق يا مشرك أنا بري‏ء منك، قال مرازم فلما قدمت الكوفة فوضعت متاعي جئت إليه فدعوت الجارية فقلت قولي لأبي إسماعيل هذا مرازم فخرج إلي فقلت له يقول لك جعفر بن محمد يا كافر يا فاسق يا مشرك أنا بري‏ء منك، فقال لي و قد ذكرني سيدي قال، قلت نعم ذكرك بهذا الذي قلت لك، فقال جزاك الله خيرا و فعل بك و أقبل يدعو لي.

 

744. Hamdawayh and Ibrahim the sons of Nusayr both of whom said: narrated to us Muhammad b. Isa from Safwan from Murazim who said: Abu Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: do you know Mubashir or Bashir - [mistaking the name] - the barley seller? I said: Bashar? he said: Bashar! I said: yes I do, he is a neighbor of mine, he (al-Sadiq) said: the Jews said what they said but they still monothized Allah, and the Christians said what they said but they still monothized Allah, but Bashar has said (i.e. professed) a mighty thing! so if you reach Kufa go to him and say to him: Ja’far says to you – ‘O Kafir, O Fasiq, O Mushriq, I am disassociated from you’, Murazim said: so when I reached Kufa and had put down my provisions [of the journey] - I came to his place and called out to the maid servant and said: say to Abi Ismail (Bashar) that this is Murazim (at the door), so he came out to me, I said to him: Ja’far b. Muhammad says to you – ‘O Kafir, O Fasiq, O Mushriq, I am disassociated from you’, so he (Bashar) said to me: and has my master mentioned (i.e. remembered) me? he (Murazim) said: I said: yes - he has mentioned you with what I have just said to you! so he said: may Allah reward you with good, and may he do [so and so] for you, and he began supplicating for me!

ومقالة بشار هي مقالة العلياوية يقولون إن عليا رب وظهر بالعلوية الهاشمية وأظهر عبده ورسوله بالمحمدية، فوافق أصحاب أبي الخطاب في أربعة أشخاص علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين وأن معنى الأشخاص الثلاثة فاطمة والحسن و الحسين تلبيس و الحقيقة شخص علي لأنه أول هذه الأشخاص في الإمامة و أنكروا شخص محمد وزعموا أن محمدا عبد وعلي رب وأقاموا محمدا مقام ما أقامت المخمسة سلمان و جعلوه رسولا لعلي، فوافقوهم في الإباحات و التعطيل و التناسخ والعلياوية سمتها المخمسة العليائية و زعموا أن بشارا الشعيري لما أنكر ربوبية محمد وجعلها في علي و جعل محمدا عبد علي و أنكر رسالة سلمان مسخ في صورة الطير يقال له علياء يكون في البحر فلذلك سموهم العليائية

 

(al-Kashshi says:) And the belief of Bashar is that of the Ulyawiyya – they say: Ali is Lord, and he appeared in the Alawi and Hashimi form (as an Alawi and a Hashimi man), and he made his slave and messenger appear in the Muhammadi form, so he (Bashar) agreed with the companions of Abi al-Khattab (i.e. the Khatabiyya) in four persons (being Lords) – Ali and Fatima and al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and maintained that the meaning (independent essence) of the three persons - Fatima and al-Hasan and al-Husayn is a deception, and the reality is only the person of Ali (who alone is true and integral - reappearing as these other persons), because he is the first among these persons in the Imama, and they denied the person of Muhammad (as Lord), and they held that Muhammad was slave and that Ali is Lord, and they placed Muhammad in the station (position) that the Mukhamisa (Fivers) had placed Salman in (i.e. that of a slave and messenger), and they made him (Muhammad) a messenger to Ali, and he (Bashar) also agreed with them in permitting (considering licit the forbidden), and denying (negating the attributes of Allah), and transmigration (reincarnation of souls).

And the Ulyawiyya were called by the Mukhamisa - ‘Ulyaiyya’, and they held that Bashar - the barley seller - when he rejected the lordship of Muhammad, and placed it in Ali, and made Muhammad a slave to Ali, and rejected the messenger-ship of Salman [and placed Muhammad in the place of Salman] he was transformed into the shape of a bird which is called Ulya, which is found by the sea, so this is why they called them Ulyaiyya (i.e. pejoratively).

 

NOTES: Shaykh al-Mamaqani says: he (the Imam) wishes by naming him Mubashar and then Bashir [which are derivations of Bishr] and not getting his name right - to do as though he does not know him, and this is to belittle the one named, and not that he does not know his name in actuality, and this is something well known even in our usage, when we want to demean a man we show as if we do not know his actual name (i.e. get it wrong purposely). 

 

Allah is Elevated above this, in their esoteric derangement they consider the curse of the Imam a secret coded blessing!

 

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

iraqi_shia

 

Thank you for your comment. Yes, they do have scholars/knowledgeable people. They live in one of the main cities. However, unfortunately, they despise scholars such as Khamenei and Sistani. They are of the view that taqleed is akin to valuing the words of ghair masoom scholars over those of the Masumeen (as).

They have been told this is not correct. But the problem is also that they are not ready to listen to people who oppose them...

IbnSohan

Thank you, brother. God reward you and all of us who strive for the Ahlulbayt (as).

I took help from brother IslamicSalvation's thread, and posted a lot of ahadith on Ghulaat. But I was blamed to be a muqassir and given warnings that I will soon be banned. I left the group due to my hatred, but now use a fake account to find what is going on.

These people do not reason. They only blindly and emotionally follow people who have similar beliefs. Any 'outsider' carries either hatred of Imam Ali (as) or is a muqassir. They do not have the rationale to compare Surah Ahad with the 'ahadith' they share to find out if there is a contradiction.

But I shall keep trying.

 

(wasalam)

Edited July 5, 2014 by Mikael

[A true Sunni 1,673]

(bismillah)

(salam)

iraqi_shia

 

Thank you for your comment. Yes, they do have scholars/knowledgeable people. They live in one of the main cities. However, unfortunately, they despise scholars such as Khamenei and Sistani. 

 

They have no real scholars or knowledgeable people. To equate these people with 'scholarship' is insulting to all people who strive for knowledge.

[aqeelfair4u 28]

Thanks

 

 

 

I am 100% sure that that translation is incorrect.

 

That  is simply ridiculous 

its correct because i know urdu

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)
 

They have no real scholars or knowledgeable people. To equate these people with 'scholarship' is insulting to all people who strive for knowledge.

To clarify, brother, I was referring to people as Ayatullah Aqeel al Gharavi, Allama Talib Johari, Dr. Kalbe Sadiq. Of course, some of these scholars are not based in countries like Pakistan or India. Nevertheless, they do visit often, especially during Muharram.

But the point I wish to emphasise is that the group's members do not consider these to be scholars, rather hypocrites. They adopt a similar stance towards maraji' like Seestani and Khamenei. And the reason they adopt such a stance is because these scholars do not agree with their point of view - which they claim is their 'knowledge' about our deen.
 

 

its correct because i know urdu

Brother, I think baqar meant that the translation from Arabic to Urdu is incorrect, not that my translation of the Urdu text is wrong.


---------------

Update from the group: all members who challenged the ghuluw in the aforementioned group posts have been removed. Now, the exaggerators can say what they want and spread their beliefs while facing (much) less resistance.

(wasalam)

[Marbles 16,034]

They are practically neo-Ghalis. They like to call themselves "Akhbari" but they are far from anything classical Akhabrism stood for. They use that label for themselves only because they reject the system of taqleed and deride the maraaji whenever they get a chance.

 

They are not a monolithic group with a standard set of beliefs but their convictions vary very much from person to person and from group to group which, going by the standards of mainstream Shi'ism, can be said to range from minor ghuluw to downright blasphemy.

 

Many Shias in Pakistan are under the sway of this mentality. There are in India too, because if I'm not wrong, that hubbeli website is run from India. Their numbers are kind of increasing from what I can tell having met and talked with Shias in different part of Pakistan.

[Kaniz e Zahra 1,020]

Brother, these people are totally jaahil and many of them are beyond redemption. Instead of understanding an argument, they easily label a  normal Shia as muqassir. I have spend time on some controversial groups of both kinds, the exaggerators and those who undermine the status of Ahlebait,(as). Both are dangerous and really stubborn ,one will label you ghaali whereas another one muqassir, whenever they fall short of arguments, I feel tired of them. BTW ghuluw and taqseer isn't as prevailant in real society as much as its on internet. Anyone can use multiple ids, etc. But the real number isn't that great. Mainstream tashayyu will remain moderate inshAllah since its under the blessings of Imam e Zamana,(as). We aren't without Waaris Alhumduliilah, those who wish to deviate should get out of it before He(ajtf) returns inshAllah.

[A true Sunni 1,673]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

To clarify, brother, I was referring to people as Ayatullah Aqeel al Gharavi, Allama Talib Johari, Dr. Kalbe Sadiq. Of course, some of these scholars are not based in countries like Pakistan or India. Nevertheless, they do visit often, especially during Muharram.

But the point I wish to emphasise is that the group's members do not consider these to be scholars, rather hypocrites. They adopt a similar stance towards maraji' like Seestani and Khamenei. And the reason they adopt such a stance is because these scholars do not agree with their point of view - which they claim is their 'knowledge' about our deen.

 

 

There are many scholars in the IndoPak continent and they unanimously reject this group and such like affiliated groups. They are like a cult and have sprung from a 'peer mareed' mentality.

[Mikael 72]

(bismillah)
(salam)

Marbles
 

They are practically neo-Ghalis. They like to call themselves "Akhbari" but they are far from anything classical Akhabrism stood for. They use that label for themselves only because they reject the system of taqleed and deride the maraaji whenever they get a chance.

 

They are not a monolithic group with a standard set of beliefs but their convictions vary very much from person to person and from group to group which, going by the standards of mainstream Shi'ism, can be said to range from minor ghuluw to downright blasphemy.

 

Many Shias in Pakistan are under the sway of this mentality. There are in India too, because if I'm not wrong, that hubbeli website is run from India. Their numbers are kind of increasing from what I can tell having met and talked with Shias in different part of Pakistan.

 

Thank you, brother, for sharing your observations. I agree that they are not a monolithic group. I think what unites them is the dislike for taqleed and maraaji', and a liking for emotionally charged rhetoric, as heard from some zaakireen. Often they speak of 'enjoying' the fadhail of Ahlulbayt (as), while what they are really hearing is exaggeration regarding Masumeen (as). 

Regarding the group mentioned in the OP, most of the deviants are young people, and as of now, they have banned all members that disagree with their ghuluw.
I will keep researching, and try to formulate their arguments and refute them, inshaAllah.


Thank you, sister Kaniz e Zahra and brother True Sunni, for your inputs.


(wasalam)

[guest050817 4,826]

May Allah swt crush the efforts of the modern day Ghali's.

 

Imam Ali a.s said: "Two kinds of people will be damned on my account. Those who form exaggerated opinions about me, and those who under-estimate me because they hate me"

Nahjul Balaga, saying 116

 

 

From Yāsir, the servant, said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام),
‘What do you say about al-Tafwīd?’ And he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى), delegated (fawwaḍa) to His prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) affairs of His religion’, and He said: “Take whatever the Messenger gives to you, and deny for yourself whatever he prohibits” (59:7).

 

As for (delegating) the creation and sustenance, then No! He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) says “Allāh is the creator of all things’ (3:16) and He says “It is Allāh, He has created you, then He has given you sustenance, then He has made you die, then He has brought you back to life, are there any of your partners who can does of that any of these things? Glory be to Allāh, and High is He from the partners (they attribute)” (30:40)
Source:
al-Sadooq(another one of the great shia scholars narrating a hadith from an Imam a.s) `Uyoon al-Akhbaar, vol. 2, ch. 46, pg. 202-203, hadeeth # 3

 

 

In his book, Jafari - The origins and early development of shia, Sayyid Husayn Muhammad Ja'fari

states:

 

"The most conspicuous names in this second group, who became the followers of Al-Baqir and then of Ja'far as-Sadiq, are Hamza b. 'Umara al-Buraydi, Bayan b. Sim'an, Sa'd an-Nahdi, Mughira b. Sa'id al-'Ijli, his Co-tribesman Abu Mansur al-Ijli, and Muhammad b. Abi Zaynab Miqlas b. Abi'l-K hattab. It would be too lengthy to even briefly describe their extremist teachings here; suffice it to say that they preached that the Imams were the incarnations of God, that the divine particle incarnate in 'All b. Abi Talib enabled him to know the unseen, foretell the future, and to fight against the infidels, that the power of the invisible angelic world was in 'Ali like a lamp within a niche in a wall, and that God's light was in 'Ali as the flame in a lamp"

 

Reference:  Kashshi, Rijal 44 p. 148, passim; Nawbakhti, F iraq, p.34

 

 

 

"In connection with these ghulat and their teachings , here we will only point out that from Al-Baqir onwards, all the subsequent Imams always cursed them and repeatedly warned their followers not to accept traditions from them. Kashshi quotes Ja'far, who complains of Mughira, for example, as misrepresenting Al-Baqir, and adds that all the ghuluw ascribed to Al- Baqir was from Mughira.  In fact Ja'far and all the Imams who followed him were always unequivocal in violently cursing the ghulat and condemning their teachings."

 

Reference:  See Kashshi, Rijal 44 p. 148, passim; Nawbakhti, F iraq, p.34  ,   Kashshi; Rijal, p.223

(salam)

 

A relative of mine come over from Pakistan recently, and one day of of the blue he said that there are too many muqassirs around today, and he asked me if there were many in England, when I asked him for his definition of muqassir, he said that it is anyone who recites their tashahud without the testifying to the wilaya of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã (he doesn't pray at all), when I tried to explain that hardly anyone does that, in essence making the whole sect muqassirs, he said that is the fault of "that ba***rd Dhakoo" ....

 

The more time I spend with him, the more I am amazed. Although I don't think that it is a great excuse, the reason is clearly just lack of education, both academic and religious, and too many evil and ignorant men leading the community astray.

 

I have heard there are groups of shia's in Pakistan who are extreme in the ghuluw. May our Ulema react to these groups and banish the exaggerators of the Imams a.s and bring them back to true Islam.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Tawheed313

[Noor al Batul 1,039]

Salam.

I don't think that arguing with such people will be fruitful- ignorants are blind to the most logical things around them and if nothing else, their pride will make them not listen to anyone with a different view. So, it's good to warn others, mainly younger ones, I guess. Especially younger Pakistanis.

Though, that problem isn't only present in Pakistan only but also in Pakistanis living in the west, at least where I live. Not many, but they are here- the mosque we go to has been split into two groups, the smaller of which calls the other 'muqassir' because they do not say the Shahada for Imam Ali's (as) Wilaya in their salat (and also because the other group says that we shouldn't make lanat on specific people, calling out their names, but on the enemies of Ahl-ul-Bait as such). And now, even if someone, scholar or not, tries to reason with them that this Shahada is not wajib, though you can obviously say it (as long as you are aware it is not obligatory), they won't listen. They even go as far as not to support one of the only Shia-channels for Pakistanis because of this.

This is, frankly, pretty frustrating. Not only are Shias being split, one group of them is so blind in their belief that they even cut off friendships (years' old friendships) because their friends supported another opinion.

But, well, at least they are not saying that Imam Ali (as) or any other Imam (as) is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì or a part of Him ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì or have the same rank as him ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì - which, in itself, is pretty illogical. I mean, come on, if this were true, why would they (as) have bothered to pray, to begin with? Gone to Hajj and all that? But I guess, in Pakistan those people who are less educated are affected, so logic won't help much. And since they hate scholars...

Only Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì can help them.

Wa salam!

[wali110 4]

There are multiple Groups like these on Facebook and should you feel uncomfortable with any of them would I advise for you to either stop joining them as you have to join them in order to read any of the content or report any complaints to their moderator.

 

Thanks for sharing the Group however, I have send a request to join and believe it to be of good Nature and you can call me whatever you may like ;-) !