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Hazyn

Mother And Daughter Raped

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Salam,

This is old news now, I feel sorry for woman and little girls,they just rape them. Now their gang raping from what I heard,not all but some are.. These takeferis are not their to fight,they are their to rape and to shot/be head innocent shia and christains.

Death2isis..

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Look at this from their point of view.

 

An Islamic government has been established and the kafirs living under its protection were asked to pay jizya. According to the Islamic law, those kafirs who do not pay prescribed jizya forfeit their lives and property to the state. Their women are subject to the laws of war booty, by which the mujahideen can take them as slaves with sexual rights over them. So what the mujahideen of Islam did was to take what was legally theirs.

 

Rape? According to whom?

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Look at this from their point of view.

An Islamic government has been established and the kafirs living under its protection were asked to pay jizya. According to the Islamic law, those kafirs who do not pay prescribed jizya forfeit their lives and property to the state. Their women are subject to the laws of war booty, by which the mujahideen can take them as slaves with sexual rights over them. So what the mujahideen of Islam did was to take what was legally theirs.

Rape? According to whom?

You stopped short of imagination even from their point of view.

Firstly someone not paying tax has to be expelled, they don't become spoils of war.

Secondly even if they are spoils of war, where in Islam is prescribed to have sex with slaves in front of her father?

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You stopped short of imagination even from their point of view.

Firstly someone not paying tax has to be expelled, they don't become spoils of war.

Secondly even if they are spoils of war, where in Islam is prescribed to have sex with slaves in front of her father?

 

I know there might be milder punishments for refusing jizya to an Islamic state and etiquette demands that you take away their women and have sex (forced sex if need be) with them in your private chambers. But these are minor niceties, diversions if you will, of the less-than-sophisticated foot-soldiers. The core of the law remains intact in what the mujahideen of Islam have done. You can't fault them.

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I know there might be milder punishments for refusing jizya to an Islamic state and etiquette demands that you take away their women and have sex (forced sex if need be) with them in your private chambers. But these are minor niceties, diversions if you will, of the less-than-sophisticated foot-soldiers. The core of the law remains intact in what the mujahideen of Islam have done. You can't fault them.

You can't fault them? Since when is it permissible to do such a disgusting act??? Permissible is an understatement. Why would this even be remotely considered an acceptable possibility, despite not paying taxes.

 

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I thought this was about the latest news.

Lately, Jabhatul Nusrah raided a house of a commander from ISIS, took his wife and daughter. As we can expect what they do with women, they did it then released the wife to deliver the news but kept the daughter.

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I know there might be milder punishments for refusing jizya to an Islamic state and etiquette demands that you take away their women and have sex (forced sex if need be) with them in your private chambers. But these are minor niceties, diversions if you will, of the less-than-sophisticated foot-soldiers. The core of the law remains intact in what the mujahideen of Islam have done. You can't fault them.

There is a very thin line between right and wrong which often looks insignificant.

The difference between offering salaat and offering salaat hurriedly is being Muslim and not being Muslim.

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You can't fault them? Since when is it permissible to do such a disgusting act??? Permissible is an understatement. Why would this even be remotely considered an acceptable possibility, despite not paying taxes.

 

Y'all need to understand what Marbles is trying to say.

 

His point shouldn't be taken at face value. Rather, there is an implication in what he is saying. 

 

He is criticizing fiqh, or at the very least, our view of fiqh. By defending these people's actions in a fiqhi framework, he is putting these guys to our faces and saying: "See this!! This is you... kind of... in a way."

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Y'all need to understand what Marbles is trying to say.

His point shouldn't be taken at face value. Rather, there is an implication in what he is saying.

He is criticizing fiqh, or at the very least, our view of fiqh. By defending these people's actions in a fiqhi framework, he is putting these guys to our faces and saying: "See this!! This is you... kind of... in a way."

Brother thanks for explaining but if you're saying it's sarcasm, it's not a good one.

In matters like these sarcasm isn't of help to anyone except being misunderstood as line of thought.

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Brother thanks for explaining but if you're saying it's sarcasm, it's not a good one.

In matters like these sarcasm isn't of help to anyone except being misunderstood as line of thought.

 

It's not really sarcasm so much as it is an implied criticism.

 

Meaning, through "defending" these people within the fiqhi framework, he is calling into question the very framework for many of the non-rape-related discussions that take place here.

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He is criticizing fiqh, or at the very least, our view of fiqh.

 

I had a Christian teacher who taught us English here in Pakistan when I was a high school teenager. In those days Taliban ruled Afghanistan. One day in the class I and a few of my friends were criticising Taliban for their inhumanity and barbarism and how what they were doing was so against Islam. My Christian teacher, a gentleman in his 60s at the time, smiled affectionately and said, "You may disagree with their policies but, my son, what they are doing in Afghanistan is trying to create an authentic Islamic government based on the precepts of Quran and hadith". That Christian teacher of ours also held a Masters in Islamic Studies.

 

Now, the problem is that we do not have control over how other people interpret fiqh or how some outsiders see it. This is not about you or me or Shias; it's about those people who are doing these things and their justifications. I started my first point by asking the readers to look at this 'from their point of view'.

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I had a Christian teacher who taught us English here in Pakistan when I was a high school teenager. In those days Taliban ruled Afghanistan. One day in the class I and a few of my friends were criticising Taliban for their inhumanity and barbarism and how what they were doing was so against Islam. My Christian teacher, a gentleman in his 60s at the time, smiled affectionately and said, "You may disagree with their policies but, my son, what they are doing in Afghanistan is trying to create an authentic Islamic government based on the precepts of Quran and hadith". That Christian teacher of ours also held a Masters in Islamic Studies.

Now, the problem is that we do not have control over how other people interpret fiqh or how some outsiders see it. This is not about you or me or Shias; it's about those people who are doing these things and their justifications. I started my first point by asking the readers to look at this 'from their point of view'.

Poor logic

All oppression is justified thereby. #pov

Your christian teacher was probably suffering from variant of Stockholm syndrome.

Oppression is to be condemned.

By Muslims or non Muslims.

On Muslims or non Muslims.

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Now, the problem is that we do not have control over how other people interpret fiqh or how some outsiders see it. This is not about you or me or Shias; it's about those people who are doing these things and their justifications. I started my first point by asking the readers to look at this 'from their point of view'.

 

Maybe if we became more conscious of the secret war against the correct ideology of Islam, and the multitude of ways in which it is manifested there would be some basic level of control.

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Poor logic

All oppression is justified thereby. #pov

Your christian teacher was probably suffering from variant of Stockholm syndrome.

Oppression is to be condemned.

By Muslims or non Muslims.

On Muslims or non Muslims.

 

Bro he's not exonerating them.

 

Listen, I am pretty sure I am the foremost expert on Marbles' mind. It has been the subject of my study for five years. I am confident that my interpretation of his statement is right

 

And he doesn't make a bad point, to be honest. If all of your beliefs are reduced to "do's" and "don'ts" then it becomes very corruptible. Anything that isn't a "don't" will, by rule, become accepted and legitimate.

 

This is how these people have legitimated their actions.

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Bro he's not exonerating them.

Listen, I am pretty sure I am the foremost expert on Marbles' mind. It has been the subject of my study for five years. I am confident that my interpretation of his statement is right

And he doesn't make a bad point, to be honest. If all of your beliefs are reduced to "do's" and "don'ts" then it becomes very corruptible. Anything that isn't a "don't" will, by rule, become accepted and legitimate.

This is how these people have legitimated their actions.

:)

Muddai sust, gavah chust

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Listen, I am pretty sure I am the foremost expert on Marbles' mind. It has been the subject of my study for five years.

 

:donno:

 

Muddai sust, gavah chust

 

Shah se zyada shah ke wafadaar.

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Hazyn as bad as ISIS are, don't just go around and accept any source there is; christianpost is a conservative website that reports anything and everything, include a planned 'genocide' of Coptic Christians lol. I wouldn't be surprised if this news is fake, who would punish a family who didn't have enough money to pay jizya? Their own book Bukhari has Omar saying in his last words that muslims should not impose on dhimmis what they cannot bear.

 

Anyway, seems like this silly thread has descended into a question of fiqh rules of warfare. Here's how it goes:

 

Looting for yourself without first taking everything to the political leader is haram. The war would have to be over, everything taken would be handed to the Imam, then he would distribute the war booty according to his judgement. Only then will the fighter have property rights over booty.

 

And as for any slaves, there'd be a waiting period (idda) so no one would jump straight away on the captured. And as for jizya, well if the wife disassociates herself from her husband she wouldn't be taken as 'war booty'. Ooo very big caveat the desi expertise above me failed to mention.

 

All the above civilized warfare at a time when sacking a village meant taking a woman by force and raping her on the spot. Which is presumably what ISIS are doing now (if the news is true).

 

Quite amazing really, when you have Al-Qaeda disassociating themselves from such people the nincompoops on this forum STILL try to take the worst variety as the true example of active religious politics.

Edited by Jahangiram

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Hazyn as bad as ISIS are, don't just go around and accept any source there is; christianpost is a conservative website that reports anything and everything, include a planned 'genocide' of Coptic Christians lol. I wouldn't be surprised if this news is fake, who would punish a family who didn't have enough money to pay jizya? Their own book Bukhari has Omar saying in his last words that muslims should not impose on dhimmis what they cannot bear.

Anyway, seems like this silly thread has descended into a question of fiqh rules of warfare. Here's how it goes:

Looting for yourself without first taking everything to the political leader is haram. The war would have to be over, everything taken would be handed to the Imam, then he would distribute the war booty according to his judgement. Only then will the fighter have property rights over booty.

And as for any slaves, there'd be a waiting period (idda) so no one would jump straight away on the captured. And as for jizya, well if the wife disassociates herself from her husband she wouldn't be taken as 'war booty'. Ooo very big caveat the desi expertise above me failed to mention.

All the above civilized warfare at a time when sacking a village meant taking a woman by force and raping her on the spot. Which is presumably what ISIS are doing now (if the news is true).

Quite amazing really, when you have Al-Qaeda disassociating themselves from such people the nincompoops on this forum STILL try to take the worst variety as the true example of active religious politics.

Brother you almost stopped short of saying I know everything desi don't so before you post check with me and don't create threads on warfare fiqh unless you pm me first. :)

And summary is source is unacceptable, site is conservative, news might be fake, thread silly, posters nincompoop, al-Qaeda approval is missing

:)

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As if it matters what you think how fiqh should work. The 'mujahideen' of the ISIS derive their violence and warfare from their interpretation of fiqh and have their own justifications. This is about them not about us.

 

They have been scrounging for women to sleep with, presumably to ease their war aggression, and they are doing it by whatever interpretation of the law they can hang on to. When hundreds of women from all over North Africa and the Middle East were sent over to 'serve' the guys in Syria, the deniers also credited it to anti-Islam propaganda. Guess what, it turned out to be true. Now their brethren are using the same tactics against the womenfolk of Mosul and elsewhere.

 

Last but not the least, they have a very illustrious example of Khalid b. Waleed, that Sword of Islam who having killed Malik b. Nuwaira in one of Abu Bakr's Ridda wars, took over his widow and slept with her the same night. So it's not like they are doing something unheard of.

Edited by Marbles

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Marbles this is accepted Islamic morality in warfare, established by authentic hadith (sunni and shia). Whether this news is true or not, the facts remain the same. Don't make Islam so complicated, these facts are very simple. Deal with it.

Edited by Jahangiram

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Marbles this is accepted Islamic morality in warfare, established by authentic hadith (sunni and shia). Whether this news is true or not, the facts remain the same. Don't make Islam so complicated, these facts are very simple. Deal with it.

 

It's not me who you should be addressing but the 'mujahideen' of the ISIS and such ilk. Maybe you can teach 'em a thing or two about fiqh and morality.

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Look at this from their point of view.

 

An Islamic government has been established and the kafirs living under its protection were asked to pay jizya. According to the Islamic law, those kafirs who do not pay prescribed jizya forfeit their lives and property to the state. Their women are subject to the laws of war booty, by which the mujahideen can take them as slaves with sexual rights over them. So what the mujahideen of Islam did was to take what was legally theirs.

 

Rape? According to whom?

 

I'm sorry brother but you're waaaaay off on this one. You wan't to know all the ways they violated the sharia in this instance.

1) When you refer to slaves, I'm assuming you're referring to 'mulk all yamin'. This is loosely translated as 'possesion of the right hand'. As Shia, we have a very strict interpretation of what is 'mulk al yamin'. I had a long discussion about this previously with Br. Haydar Husain. Basically, there is no 'mulk al yamin' at this time because there are many pre-conditions for this, the first of which that these women must be captured 'on the battlefield' in other words they are actively engaged in combat against the muslims and not civilians (as these women clearly were) in a war that is lead by a Masoom Imam, i.e. Imam Mehdi(a.f.s). So whatever was in their tiny little brains, this had nothing to do with Quran or Islam. 

2) If they were trying to justify this as a marriage, 

A) You cannot marry a women who is already married, Islam recognizes Christian women who are married to Christian men as married. 

B) You cannot be married to a women and her daughter at the same time,

C) No consent

D) etc, etc. 

 

The Jizya

 

It is a tax on non muslims who live under the protection of an Islamic State, but are not required to go for military Jihad, , if this is necessary for the protection of the Islamic State, whereas the muslims who live in the Islamic State are required to go for this jihad. This is a compensation they pay for being exempted from the military requirement. Since Isis has not established an Islamic State, yet, and hopefully never will, there is no such as thing as Jizya (in this case). Second, according to well know hadith from Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) you cannot force someone to pay taxes. If a governor does this, he will be dismissed under a just government. Most of the governments who call themselves Islamic are either not practicing Islam at all or only practicing it in certain parts but not in others. 

 

So what they did has absolutely, absoultely, absolutely nothing to do with Islam, either Shia or Sunni. Please don't connect the two, there is no basis. They are a sadistic criminal gang. Full Stop. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Look at this from their point of view.

 

An Islamic government has been established and the kafirs living under its protection were asked to pay jizya. According to the Islamic law, those kafirs who do not pay prescribed jizya forfeit their lives and property to the state. Their women are subject to the laws of war booty, by which the mujahideen can take them as slaves with sexual rights over them. So what the mujahideen of Islam did was to take what was legally theirs.

 

Rape? According to whom?

The fact that you called them mujahideen, holy warriors of islam, caused me to vomit in my mouth a few times

Would the masomeen refer to these monstreous beasts as holy warriors?

For shame! Repent from this deviance

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The fact that you called them mujahideen, holy warriors of islam, caused me to vomit in my mouth a few times

Would the masomeen refer to these monstreous beasts as holy warriors?

For shame! Repent from this deviance

Theyve broken every rule of the book if this news is true: 

 

a) no dhimmi is held responsible if the jizya is too much to bear

b ) if the hubby is guilty, the wife does not share the guilt if she disassociated 

c) if she is an accomplice, they unlawfully looted a woman as a slave before handing her over to their leader for distribution 

 

I know ISIS are savage takfiris, but they cant possibly be this mindless and be absolutely clueless about all these rules. It just seems way too out of line even for ISIS. Its proof positive of the prophecies about the Dajjal taking over Iraq and Shaam either way...

Edited by Jahangiram

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I'm sorry brother but you're waaaaay off on this one.

 

So what they did has absolutely, absoultely, absolutely nothing to do with Islam, either Shia or Sunni. Please don't connect the two, there is no basis. They are a sadistic criminal gang. Full Stop. 

 

I totally agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam and the laws governing warfare. I was talking about what they think of those laws, the justifications they give to their actions, and their raison detre for acting upon it. Only that.

 

Historic Khawarij are known to the the first extremists of Islam. They deviated from the norm by a long way but in their own eyes they were not a sadistic criminal gang but pious Muslims out their to set right the corruption in Islam. They had their interpretations and worldview and they thought it in line with Islam.

 

I know ISIS are savage takfiris, but they cant possibly be this mindless and be absolutely clueless about all these rules. It just seems way too out of line even for ISIS. Its proof positive of the prophecies about the Dajjal taking over Iraq and Shaam either way...

 

It is completely in line with the ISIS ideology, their contemporary brethren elsewhere and with their Salafi predecessors. This particular news maybe true or not, but it is not the only time it has happened. In fact, these crimes have a clear regularity to it.

 

When they attacked Karbala in the early years of the 1800s after they had managed to create the first Saudi statelet, they killed the men and took over women as war booty. That with the Shias who profess shahadah. I will leave it to your imagination as to what they would do to non-Muslims. So it's not as if what is happening today has not happened in the past, and abundantly.

 

Or how about those dozens of Takfiri fatwas that declare the blood of Shias halal and their women to be taken as slaves, because just by being Shia, they are at 'war with Islam'. Same with those who work for governments which have close ties with the United States. They, too, are at 'war with Allah'.

Like it or not, this is how they interpret shariah and will continue to do so, and this would be an example to the world what has become of Islam in this day and age.

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I know that Muslims are all very innocent. And that every wrong under the sun is the doing of the non-believers...even if when a Muslim does something wrong its the non-believers' fault. I have a question for some-

 

we see anarchy and chaos in many parts of the world? Why barbaric actions are almost always limited to Muslims and Islamic communities? 

 

barbaric actions- rape, pillage,forced marriage, beheadings, and other vulgar acts.

 

I yet to see such barbaric act in Ukraine- a region fairly close to ME and going through similar upheavals.

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I know that Muslims are all very innocent. And that every wrong under the sun is the doing of the non-believers...even if when a Muslim does something wrong its the non-believers' fault. I have a question for some-

 

we see anarchy and chaos in many parts of the world? Why barbaric actions are almost always limited to Muslims and Islamic communities? 

 

barbaric actions- rape, pillage,forced marriage, beheadings, and other vulgar acts.

 

I yet to see such barbaric act in Ukraine- a region fairly close to ME and going through similar upheavals.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

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It is completely in line with the ISIS ideology, their contemporary brethren elsewhere and with their Salafi predecessors. This particular news maybe true or not, but it is not the only time it has happened. In fact, these crimes have a clear regularity to it.

 

When they attacked Karbala in the early years of the 1800s after they had managed to create the first Saudi statelet, they killed the men and took over women as war booty. That with the Shias who profess shahadah. I will leave it to your imagination as to what they would do to non-Muslims. So it's not as if what is happening today has not happened in the past, and abundantly.

 

Or how about those dozens of Takfiri fatwas that declare the blood of Shias halal and their women to be taken as slaves, because just by being Shia, they are at 'war with Islam'. Same with those who work for governments which have close ties with the United States. They, too, are at 'war with Allah'.

Exactly what I was thinking. +1

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