Shia View Of Salvation Of Jews And Christians?

ChristianVisitor · June 23, 2014

According to Shia theology must Jews and Christians accept the teachings of the Quran and follow the laws in it in order to escape hellfire and enter paradise? Or can Jews and Christians faithfully follow their own religious convictions and practices and still enter God's kingdom?

**Son of Placid** · June 23, 2014

The Quran says Christians and Jews will not grieve on judgement day. Some would like to say that's only if they convert, but that's not what the Quran says.

OlweyyaB · June 23, 2014

Jewdism and Christianity each once were the right religion, but the people deviated from their true teachings, which are identical to Islam's true teaching because all Prophets, including Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus peace be upon them, preached the same concepts and values. Today, and after Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him, who is the last of all Prophets, the true religion and the last of Allah's (swt) religions is Islam. So in answer to your question, yes, Jewish people and Christians should become Muslims. However Allah (swt) in the most fair and just, and He is the only one who can judge and decides who goes to hell and heaven. Essentially, it is incumbent upon Jews and Christians to search for knowledge and truth, and if they are sincere in their search, with the will of Allah swt they will find it, and enter his mercy.

Quick Silver · June 23, 2014

According to Shia theology must Jews and Christians accept the teachings of the Quran and follow the laws in it in order to escape hellfire and enter paradise? Or can Jews and Christians faithfully follow their own religious convictions and practices and still enter God's kingdom?

The Shia believe what the Quran says about this manner and is readily available on the internet on numerous Quran websites.

The Quran says Christians and Jews will not grieve on judgement day. Some would like to say that's only if they convert, but that's not what the Quran says.

false.

Quran 2:62

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."

Not just every Christian and Jew,but the righteous ones and those who believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, not anybody who simply says they are Christian or Jewish

**Son of Placid** · June 23, 2014

[before Prophet Muhammad] is an opinion of a translator with an agenda, and is NOT in the Quran. It's your book, read it right.

Quick Silver · June 23, 2014

[Before Prophet Muhammad] is an opinion of a translator with an agenda, and is NOT in the Quran. It's your book, read it right.

That's true, I didn't even read that part

**Son of Placid** · June 23, 2014

The Quran gives more credit to Christians and Jews than any Muslim since.

**Ethics** · June 23, 2014

Non-muslims and Hell

**baqar** · June 23, 2014

According to Shia theology must Jews and Christians accept the teachings of the Quran and follow the laws in it in order to escape hellfire and enter paradise? Or can Jews and Christians faithfully follow their own religious convictions and practices and still enter God's kingdom?

CV

The Quran proclaims dozens of times that God is just. That being the case and assuming that Islam is the right religion, do you really believe that He will send someone to hell for being born in another religion? After all, it was God who put you into the womb of a non-Muslim mother.

Next question - Will He ask such a person why, after not being born in Islam, he did not convert to the right religion?

That is possible

But only if there is overwhelming reason to believe that he did not do so despite sufficient evidence being available to him.

Also please note that God's understanding of "sufficient" evidence is not within the reach of human beings like you and me.

And also remember this.

God judges His creation on a large corpus of things. And He is also Forgiving more than your mother.

In general terms, the paramount requirement is belief in God andgood actions - both to be judged by God, not us humans.

Rejection of the one God, the Cherisher and Provider, places you at some risk.

So have no worries.

If do not find sufficient reason to swap, just stay where you are.

God will by no means abandon you.

And lastly, one more thing. Remember also this.

Muslims will not be given any credit for being born in the faith.

And very importantly, no one can pre-empt God's decision.

I hope I have been able to explain myself and that you have understood what I meant.

**Abbas.** · June 23, 2014

According to Shia theology must Jews and Christians accept the teachings of the Quran and follow the laws in it in order to escape hellfire and enter paradise? Or can Jews and Christians faithfully follow their own religious convictions and practices and still enter God's kingdom?

Salams

Let's start with a few basics so that an important distinction can be made. From Shia school's perspective, Islam does not require one to jump straight to Quranic laws. It is against reasoning to force people to follow a set of rules until they have been convinced by the belief system that sets the foundation. A non-Muslim is first encouraged to consider the primary principles of Islam and Shia school of thought (Oneness of God, Prophet hood of Muhammad, Resurrection Day, Divine Leadership of 12 Imams and Justice). It is taught by our scholars that these principles need to be understood with reasoning and each individual has to ponder on their merit and will subsequently develop an understanding and rational arguments with which they will be satisfied. For example, a man of science will have his own reasoning, much firm, sound or perhaps complex, in comparison to a Bedouin. Once the primary principles have been established, all secondary beliefs and practices including jurisprudential laws follow suit. In saying this, let's look at the prospect of following non-Islamic religious convictions & practices and entering God's kingdom.

Justice is considered as one of the primary principles of Shia school of thought. There are sayings of our Prophet as well as Shia Imams in which they clearly mention that a person will be judged on the basis of sincerity and intentions. So a person of any belief can find solace in knowing that the God, the all knowing, is Just and Merciful. However, as is clearly mentioned in Quran and the sayings of our Prophet and Imams, one of the things which is extremely disliked in the court of God is arrogance. Harith (Satan/Ibees) was removed from the Mercy of God for the same reason. Earlier nations were destroyed for the same reason. Similarly when Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H would argue with people with reasoning, there were those who would arrogantly reject him. And they were condemned in the Quran. So the lesson I take from this is that whether one is a Muslim or a non-Muslim, if one shows arrogance to reasoning and refuses to consider an argument on the basis of discrimination, prejudice (and so forth), one is not really making a good case to receive God's Mercy and Blessings.

According to shias, our Prophet and Imams were the infallible authorities sent by God who were capable of answering any genuine question with reasoning. Now that our last Imam is in Ghaybat, the least obligation upon every believer is to seek knowledge and truth. One can safely assume that the same expectation is from people of other faiths. Whatever belief system we follow, we should not reject one another outright without giving due consideration to one another's arguments. And therefore, if a Jew or Christian has made a sincere effort in learning about Islam and still finds his/her convictions and practices to be closer to truth, I am of the opinion that he/she will receive God's Mercy and will enter God's Kingdom.

Regards

i

**baqar** · June 23, 2014

And therefore, if a Jew or Christian has made a sincere effort in learning about Islam and still finds his/her convictions and practices to be closer to truth, I am of the opinion that he/she will receive God's Mercy and will enter God's Kingdom.

Brother Salams

You are right indeed

But considering the multiple versions of Islamic history around and the many interpretations of the Quran among the many different strains of Islam, of the 3 billion Jews/Christians of the world, only a very small handful can be expected to have a reasonable opportunity to learn about true Islam.

Add to all that confusion the fact that the current generation of Muslims are behaving so badly in today's world and thereby misrepresenting Islam, most non-Muslims can, at best, get only a distorted picture of Islam. and no more.

Regards

Edited June 23, 2014 by baqar

Amina · June 23, 2014

(bismillah)

(salam)

One of the basic principles of Islam - if not the most important one - is summed up in our declaration of faith (shahadah), which states that there is no deity except God (Allah in Arabic).

It is continually and repeatedly stated in Quran that it is the foundation of any true religion and any sincere faith, not to associate another "gods" to the One and True God.

Quran also explicitly and unmistakably states that those Christians who associate Jesus, son of Mary (as) to One God and believe that he is His Son and God himself, have deviated from the true path of Oneness of God and have become polytheists. And no polytheists shall enter the Heaven, as they have wronged the basic principle of Divine Unity.

So why are we avoiding to say it and pretending that it is not in the Quran?

(wasalam)

Amina

Sumerian · June 23, 2014

Depends on the Ghuloo' that some Chritians have on Prophet Eesah (a.s).

**Ethics** · June 23, 2014

It is not a simple matter of heaven or hell. I believe if you WILLFULLY reject God and Islam, when you know it to be the truth, then you will be punished. It is a simple matter of justice and it is quite clear in the holy quran. God has sent down so many proofs and representatives, it cannot be for nothing. Even muslims will be punished for every wrong they do, unless Allah forgives. Being a muslim isnt enough to attain paradise. Looking at the article in the link I posted above, if you fall under the oppressed, which only Allah knows, that will be a different case. At the end of the day only Allah knows our true position and judgement. Just continue to seek the truth, do good and forbid evil. If you all have not read that article, please do so.

(wasalam)

Edited June 23, 2014 by PureEthics

Haj Ghasem · June 23, 2014

this topic is the one that Shia dose not have any especial idea except what Islam says.

when we refer to Islamic teaching we figure out that Islam accept just one way for people to Rescue in the other world,

due to that when Quran uses word"Noor" uses it in singular form, but when uses word"Zolmat" uses it in plural form

Agora · June 23, 2014

لا إكراه في الدين قد تبين الرشد من الغي فمن يكفر بالطاغوت ويؤمن بالله فقد استمسك بالعروة الوثقى لا انفصام لها والله سميع عليم

إن الذين آمنوا والذين هادوا والنصارى والصابئين من آمن بالله واليوم الآخر وعمل صالحا فلهم أجرهم عند ربهم ولا خوف عليهم ولا هم يحزنون

2:256 & 2:62 of the Qur`an.

**baqar** · June 23, 2014

It is not a simple matter of heaven or hell. I believe if you WILLFULLY reject God and Islam, when you know it to be the truth, then you will be punished.

You are right, brother

Salams

But I don't understand why we are so fond of talking about the fate of other people.

Do I have any guarantee that I will go to heaven?

No, I don't.

I think it will be much more useful for all of us to think of the possibility of ourselves being dumped into hot coal rather than worry about others.

So why are we avoiding to say it and pretending that it is not in the Quran?

Dear sister Salams

No one is pretending anything. But there is something called decency and courtesy.

The best and most effective way of communicating with people is to invite them to see your point of view gracefully and kindly.

Remember, there always is more than one way of achieving your goals.

The gentler and more considerate we are with people, the more effective we will be.

Don't you think?

this topic is the one that Shia dose not have any especial idea except what Islam says.
when we refer to Islamic teaching we figure out that Islam accept just one way for people to Rescue in the other world,
due to that when Quran uses word"Noor" uses it in singular form, but when uses word"Zolmat" uses it in plural form

Sorry, brother

I did not understand a word of what you said.

Could you kindly explain, please.

Thanks

**Son of Placid** · June 24, 2014

(bismillah)

(salam)

One of the basic principles of Islam - if not the most important one - is summed up in our declaration of faith (shahadah), which states that there is no deity except God (Allah in Arabic).

It is continually and repeatedly stated in Quran that it is the foundation of any true religion and any sincere faith, not to associate another "gods" to the One and True God.

Quran also explicitly and unmistakably states that those Christians who associate Jesus, son of Mary (as) to One God and believe that he is His Son and God himself, have deviated from the true path of Oneness of God and have become polytheists. And no polytheists shall enter the Heaven, as they have wronged the basic principle of Divine Unity.

So why are we avoiding to say it and pretending that it is not in the Quran?

(wasalam)

Amina

Find a Christian that says there is more than one God. I'll get into that later but I'll start with this;

The Quran states "Say not three". Somehow those three are God, Mary, and Jesus. That's a whole nuther story. In the Quran, the Holy Spirit is mentioned, and does not refer to Gabriel, (another thread), and Jesus is called a word from God. Not a messenger this time, but a word. I don't believe "word" to be an interchangeable mistake. (yet another thread) The manner in which Jesus was conceived is mentioned ("God breathed into Mary of His Spirit"), right? Actually, in both NT and the Quran it is commonly considered to be God planting the seed in Mary, but neither is "breathed of His Spirit" an interchangeable mistake, this was an intentional addition. This was not an ordinary conception, but if you believe God passed His seed unto Mary, then you would have no choice but to believe Jesus was the son of God, so don't go there. Gabriel was there, not me, but I'm pretty sure.

Considering the NT and Quran can agree on those two points, (never mention they agree to scholars) then it is proof to me the Quran confirms and completes the scriptures, (not only in this incident, but in many). It neither corrects nor condemns the scriptures that were present at the time of Muhammad, nor does it deny Jesus was more than a man.

The Quran calls this spirit a "Word from God" The NT calls Him The Word. "The Word" also has a very active role in the OT as well. This is where a tremendous amount of confusion comes into play. Many of the things Jesus said didn't seem to make sense. Some sounded like blasphemy, and if it was only an earthly Jesus talking it would have been blasphemy, but this spirit often spoke through Jesus.

Not like I'm anywhere near done my studies on this, but it's looking like this same spirit was God's first creation. Jesus was nowhere. The Quran confirms this Spirit in Jesus was some time really close to the beginning because He knew how to mold clay into a living thing.

It's usually not a fair questions because most Muslims have not read enough Bible to know, but I'll ask anyway...What new religion/laws did Muhammad or the Quran bring to the table? The correct answer is none. There is repetition of Biblical morals, and submission to God, and His will.. Was Muhammad not called the warner? Is the Quran not full of warnings?

Jesus is not often quoted in the Quran, but when He is, He is quoted as saying things like, "

3:50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. 51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.

Tells me even Muslims must obey Jesus. This being the case, in order to be a complete Muslim, one must be a Christian first ;)

**Ethics** · June 24, 2014

What new religion/laws did Muhammad or the Quran bring to the table? The correct answer is none.

Tells me even Muslims must obey Jesus. This being the case, in order to be a complete Muslim, one must be a Christian first ;)

(salam) my dear christian brethren. I must respectfully disagree with you. Being a complete muslim is in fact being a true follower of Jesus, not a christian or jew. Meaning, Obeying Allah (being a Muslim), following all prophets and messengers, believing and submitting to the holy Quran and NOT the bible and torah of today. One does not have to be a christian first and this idea is fully rejected in Islam. God condemns chrisitans for not following the true way (not the altered versions that you all believe to be the truth) of the bible and torah and commands of Jesus A.S and Moses A.S. which is -> Islam. At the end of the day, you can interpret the quran, subjectively, how ever you like to try and justify your beliefs by quoting one verse or a few and misinterpreting it will only prove your beliefs far from the truth.

Oh and you claim Islam brought no new laws or different from your faith? This proves to me you have not truly read the quran. There maybe similarities in the concepts but the methods are far from the same which makes it new. Not only that but clearly it shows the chrisitians and jews of today disobey Allah from an Islamic perspective. I will list a few just to prove your point wrong:

5 daily prayers
ablution
Hajj
fasting
hijab
imamate
halal and haram
zakat
khums
regarding inheritance
burial ritual
direction of prayer

and so forth.

(wasalam)

Edited June 24, 2014 by PureEthics

**baqar** · June 24, 2014

I'll get into that later but I'll start with this

It is an unending discussion.

I just don't understand how any Christian or Muslim could really enjoy it.

If I was Secretary General of the United Nations, I would have fought for the introduction of a powerful police system to monitor all discussion boards and blogs on the Internet.

Contrary to the needs of civilization, no one ever thought of policing the Internet when it was created.

But one is needed very badly.

I am sure you have heard of the butterfly effect.

It posits that the flap of a butterfly in New Mexico could end up in an earthquake in China.

That is what these discussions are capable of.

How I reminisce of the good old days when talking about religion was taboo like talking about forbidden sex.

Despite all the wars we fought, good days they were indeed!

Edited June 24, 2014 by baqar

andres · June 24, 2014

Tells me even Muslims must obey Jesus. This being the case, in order to be a complete Muslim, one must be a Christian first ;)

Hi Son

I wonder, do you call yourself a Christian Muslim? Or something else? Is there a church or congregation that you belong to that shares your beliefs?

Agora · June 24, 2014

(salam) my dear christian brethren.

QuickSilver? "Brethren" is a plural. SoP is one person. You and Silver are the only two people I know that refer to him as a plural. You aren't turning him into some sort of trinity are you?

5 daily prayers
ablution
Hajj
fasting
hijab
imamate
halal and haram
zakat
khums
regarding inheritance
burial ritual
direction of prayer

Ibn Placid asked what new laws Muhammad brought. You've listed 3 different things: `Aqa'id (beliefs), Fiqh (laws/jurisprudence), and two words that mean permissible and forbidden respectively. Despite your clever list, I hate to break it to you, but almost all of those have parallels in Christianity.

5 Daily Prayers = Liturgy of the Hours/Agpeya

Ablution = Baptism

Hajj = Pilgrimages

Fasting = Fasting (lent & other fast days)

Hijab = Christian women are required to cover their heads according to the Bible, Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, etc.

Imamate = No Christian equivalent

Halal & Haram = Sins and not sins

Zakat = Giving to charity

Khums = Tithing

Inheritance = No Christian equivalent (the Qur'anic version doesn't add up anyways so that's a useless comparison anyways)

Burial ritual = Christian burial rituals

Direction of Prayer = East (Catholic/Orthodox)

So yeah. Of all of the things you mentioned, only 2 don't have Christian equivalents. One is a law as SoP asked for. The other is a belief.

Netzari · June 24, 2014

Baqar, the last thing the Internet needs is a police force. Let the people think for themselves!

**Son of Placid** · June 24, 2014

(salam) my dear christian brethren. I must respectfully disagree with you. Being a complete muslim is in fact being a true follower of Jesus, not a christian or jew. Meaning, Obeying Allah (being a Muslim), following all prophets and messengers, believing and submitting to the holy Quran and NOT the bible and torah of today. One does not have to be a christian first and this idea is fully rejected in Islam. God condemns chrisitans for not following the true way (not the altered versions that you all believe to be the truth) of the bible and torah and commands of Jesus A.S and Moses A.S. which is -> Islam. At the end of the day, you can interpret the quran, subjectively, how ever you like to try and justify your beliefs by quoting one verse or a few and misinterpreting it will only prove your beliefs far from the truth.

Oh and you claim Islam brought no new laws or different from your faith? This proves to me you have not truly read the quran. There maybe similarities in the concepts but the methods are far from the same which makes it new. Not only that but clearly it shows the chrisitians and jews of today disobey Allah from an Islamic perspective. I will list a few just to prove your point wrong:

5 daily prayers

ablution

Hajj

fasting

hijab

imamate

halal and haram

zakat

khums

regarding inheritance

burial ritual

direction of prayer
and so forth.

(wasalam)

Nice list, but wait.

1. From what I understand Muhammad had this conversation and chiseled God down from 500 prayers a day to 5. Hadith, not Quran.

2. Also from what I understand, the practice of Wudu has left the simple basic four steps to a few additions, as if the Quran is not adequate. Once again this is a diversion from the original. Next time, take a shower. You can wash your nostrils there too.

3. The Jews had their own version of Hajj. Annually, to Jerusalem, for the Passover. This is not a new law. How many times have you been to Mecca?

4. Fasting is not a new rule, matter of fact Ramadan is a partial fasting. To say Islam invented it would be totally wrong.

5. Hijab is not a word found in the Quran, decency is. The 5 criteria is described in Hadith, not the Quran. The Muslim style of dress for Muslim women in Calgary includes decorative hijab over a white button up shirt, (tight enough for a peek - a - boo between the buttons) and tight designer jeans. I guess they don't follow any of the rules very well.

6. The Quran mentions God would make Imams, also from the offspring of Abraham. Obviously not a new idea starting with the Quran.

7. Halal and haram, really? Kidding, right?

8. Zakat? According to the Quran, Zakat goes back to the time of Abraham. You missed the part about new rules, didn't you.

9. You really are stretching this list for the sake of appearance. Ever heard of alms? You must have heard of Christians giving a tithe, Sooo not a new concept.

10. You go ahead and calculate your inheritance. If you can come up with a definite number let Andres know. In the mean time check out Deuteronomy 21:15 - 17 and you'll find specifics on inheritance there. Changing the numbers does not change the concept. Deuteronomy is not a new book. How can you call these new laws?

11. Governed by hadith.

12. Maybe you can explain why the Muslims turned from the Qiblah, to Kaaba, or maybe I can. According to Ibn Abbas Muhammad liked to appease the Jews when possible, up until he realized it wasn't working, which is when things changed. Still, directional prayer was practiced by the Jews first which means even this is not a new practice invented by the Quran.

"and so forth"...I'm waiting.

You see. The problem with reading the Quran straight up is it does not comply with hadith. If hadith was loosely translated it would mean, anything but what the Christians believe, (sub titled, stories to confuse Muslims). Your scholars have done a great job of using; somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, that the Quran is too deep for your feeble minds and you must let us interpret it for you, therefore you must turn from the divine words God has prepared for you to what men say about it. I find it sad you guys get all caught up in it. I keep hearing that the Quran is so in depth that each ayat has 7 meanings, yet you guys are all stuck on one meaning and can't see any more. Who decided that?

Laws made from hadith don't count when it comes to what's new in the Quran, but hadith is so intertwined that Islam has become a grey religion. Muslims are so very proud to announce that the Quran has not changed in 1400 years, yet they follow what others say about it rather than reading the black and white for themselves.

We could start a new thread...How has hadith changed Islam and why did they let it? Of course the simple answer is, Jews and Christians can't be right.

Hi Son
I wonder, do you call yourself a Christian Muslim? Or something else? Is there a church or congregation that you belong to that shares your beliefs?

I have been to many churches, I mean many. As much as I criticize hadith, I also criticize the Christian dogmas, and doctrines. I won't wear a crucifix because Jesus has risen, I don't wear a cross because it is a symbol decided by the same people who gave Jesus long blond hair and blue eyes, I prefer to wear the symbol of the fish because I have studied the disciples and believe they were much closer to the truth than any church is now. Jesus said pray to God, the church says pray to saints, I pray to God. There are a few churches that do not consider Jesus as God, yet they either pray to their dead relatives, or are off on some other tangent. As of yet I don't know of a church that is built entirely on the teachings of Christ without additives. Much of what the Muslims say about Christians is true.

**Son of Placid** · June 24, 2014

It is an unending discussion.

It certainly is, but rather than try to explain it, I'd rather explain the Christians stance on it, but apologies for saying I'd get to it and didn't.
I apologize again because I won't get into it now either. I have many things to do today.

I am sure you have heard of the butterfly effect.

In the overall, this is an itsy bitsy forum compared to the internet and I don't think we can cause that much commotion.

As a point of interest...Not long ago I was sent an ad from the "save the monarch butterfly" org. The last thing I would do is send them money...to do what? Instead I did a little research and found out the reason these butterflies are getting scarce is because they lay their eggs in milkweed pods, that of which farmers like to eradicate as it interferes with their crops. I found a place online that sells milkweed seeds and planted them around the front of my place and started my own little save the butterfly org. Hopefully they don't cause too much trouble for China.

Alas, off to work...

**Ethics** · June 24, 2014

Nice list, but wait.

1. From what I understand Muhammad had this conversation and chiseled God down from 500 prayers a day to 5. Hadith, not Quran.
2. Also from what I understand, the practice of Wudu has left the simple basic four steps to a few additions, as if the Quran is not adequate. Once again this is a diversion from the original. Next time, take a shower. You can wash your nostrils there too.
3. The Jews had their own version of Hajj. Annually, to Jerusalem, for the Passover. This is not a new law. How many times have you been to Mecca?
4. Fasting is not a new rule, matter of fact Ramadan is a partial fasting. To say Islam invented it would be totally wrong.
5. Hijab is not a word found in the Quran, decency is. The 5 criteria is described in Hadith, not the Quran. The Muslim style of dress for Muslim women in Calgary includes decorative hijab over a white button up shirt, (tight enough for a peek - a - boo between the buttons) and tight designer jeans. I guess they don't follow any of the rules very well.
6. The Quran mentions God would make Imams, also from the offspring of Abraham. Obviously not a new idea starting with the Quran.
7. Halal and haram, really? Kidding, right?
8. Zakat? According to the Quran, Zakat goes back to the time of Abraham. You missed the part about new rules, didn't you.
9. You really are stretching this list for the sake of appearance. Ever heard of alms? You must have heard of Christians giving a tithe, Sooo not a new concept.
10. You go ahead and calculate your inheritance. If you can come up with a definite number let Andres know. In the mean time check out Deuteronomy 21:15 - 17 and you'll find specifics on inheritance there. Changing the numbers does not change the concept. Deuteronomy is not a new book. How can you call these new laws?
11. Governed by hadith.
12. Maybe you can explain why the Muslims turned from the Qiblah, to Kaaba, or maybe I can. According to Ibn Abbas Muhammad liked to appease the Jews when possible, up until he realized it wasn't working, which is when things changed. Still, directional prayer was practiced by the Jews first which means even this is not a new practice invented by the Quran.

"and so forth"...I'm waiting.

You see. The problem with reading the Quran straight up is it does not comply with hadith. If hadith was loosely translated it would mean, anything but what the Christians believe, (sub titled, stories to confuse Muslims). Your scholars have done a great job of using; somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, somebody said, that the Quran is too deep for your feeble minds and you must let us interpret it for you, therefore you must turn from the divine words God has prepared for you to what men say about it. I find it sad you guys get all caught up in it. I keep hearing that the Quran is so in depth that each ayat has 7 meanings, yet you guys are all stuck on one meaning and can't see any more. Who decided that?

Laws made from hadith don't count when it comes to what's new in the Quran, but hadith is so intertwined that Islam has become a grey religion. Muslims are so very proud to announce that the Quran has not changed in 1400 years, yet they follow what others say about it rather than reading the black and white for themselves.

We could start a new thread...How has hadith changed Islam and why did they let it? Of course the simple answer is, Jews and Christians can't be right.

Oh my dear christian brethren, I am thinking whether it is worth it to respond to this post or not. You see your first and foremost mistake is you always say what you think we believe without having any sense of reasoning to see whether it is true or not. Second, it is irrational to be speaking to a shia from a point of view of the sunnis, which even you are totally misrepresenting and misinterpreting. Third, I dont think you will ever understand this simple notion, that muslims DO NOT take the quran as literal so for you to keep bringing up your own views with this relation is senseless and is no proof with your argument. Fourth, Hadith is also incumbent on us just as the quran since it is the words of the representatives of God, which makes it the truth. So to say, " this is hadith not quran" is irrational from a Islamic perspective since the same quran says obey my representatives. There are so many fallacies in your post, that makes your whole post illogical. Your argument is void. I will not bother explaining some of the misinformation you are spreading regarding some of the laws. You clearly said Islam did not bring new laws, and I proved you wrong. Our laws are clearly not the same else you would not be a christian. Simple logic. Any person with a rational mind can see your fasting is different then ours, for example. I will leave clear obligations regarding these laws, for all the visitors of this forum. You can take it or leave, but you have no authority to give your own interpretation on a Islamic law.

Allah disproves your theory on " taking the quran literal" :

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. [ Quran 3:7 ]

Obeying Muhammad A.S (ie Hadith):

Quick point: IF hadith was not needed and the quran was enough then there is no reason for these verses. Why would Allah keep repeating this notion next to His authority, if obeying the quran was one in the same with Muhammad A.S? This proves clearly, that some laws were outside the Quran that Muhammad A.S specifically received from Allah (ie hadith). Plus, Muhammad A.S is a role model, to understand this way of life we need a teacher. The quran is not enough for a way of life and we need a Godly appointed authority for interpretation.

3:31. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

3:32. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)."...

3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.

4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), to abide therein, and that will be the great success.

4:59. O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger...

4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...

4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...

4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...

5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...

8:1. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), if you are believers.

8:20. O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (Messenger Muhammad SAW)...

8:46. And obey Allah and His Messenger...

9:71. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger...

24:52. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (SAW), fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones.

24:54. Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger...

24:56. ...and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may receive mercy (from Allah).

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow...

33:33. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger...

33:71. ...And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (SAW) he has indeed achieved a great achievement.

47:33. O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)...

48:17. ...And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow (Paradise)...

59:7. ...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)...

64:12. Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)...

Prayer:

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4101

http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/laws_practices/5.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/prayer-salat-according-five-islamic-schools-law-part-1

Ablution:

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/laws-practices-how-perform-wudhu-and-tayammum

http://www.al-islam.org/ritual-and-spiritual-purity-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/ii-wudu

Hajj:

http://www.al-islam.org/hajj-islamic-pilgrimage-according-five-schools-islamic-law-allamah-muhammad-jawad-maghniyyah

Fasting:

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/fasting-according-five-islamic-schools-law

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/fasting-part-ii-ii

http://www.al-islam.org/fasting-and-ramadhan-sheikh-mansour-leghaei

Hijab:

http://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/hijab-dress-modesty-islam-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

http://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab

Imamate:

Allah ordered us to follow the imams after Muhammad A.S. You dont, so clearly you are nothing close to a muslim. Thus a new law.

http://www.al-islam.org/imamate-vicegerency-prophet-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

http://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari

http://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

Halal Haram is simple:

Besides Alcohol and Port that we Muslims cannot eat. Meats must be Zibiha and Halal. Our rulings on this is different then yours, thus making it new.

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/slaughtering-and-hunting-animals

Zakat:

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/zakat-part-i-ii

Khums:

http://www.al-islam.org/khums-islamic-tax-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/khums

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/khums-one-fifth

http://www.al-islam.org/library/zakat-and-khums-charity

Inheritance:

http://www.al-islam.org/rights-women-islam-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/part-nine-question-inheritance

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-32-difference-inheritance-women-and-men

http://www.al-islam.org/fatima-the-gracious-abu-muhammad-ordoni/chapter-1-law-inheritance

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/rules-regarding-will-wasiyyat

Burial Ritual:

http://www.al-islam.org/burial-rituals-muhammadhusein-kermali

Qibla:

http://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-29-change-qiblah

http://www.al-islam.org/philosophy-islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-shaykh-nasir-makarim-shirazi-ayatullah-jafar-subhani-8

Anyway, I think I definitely proved my point. Your faith is far from mine. Check out more information on these laws AND more laws here:

http://www.islamic-laws.com/

http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/laws_practices/

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority (Imams) from among you." (4:59).

(wasalam)

Edited June 24, 2014 by PureEthics

**Son of Placid** · June 24, 2014

It's nice you think I have the time to rehash all this with you but truth be known, I recall playing in the mud to be much more fun as a child. In other words...I have to go get in my tractor and redo 2 acres of land back to what it was before I was flooded out. At the same time design it so this never happens again. Sorry.

You do catch on fast though, I don't have an Islamic perspective, so you can invalidate my post by not bothering to explain my misrepresentations all you like. As long as we don't start lannating each other we should be fine.

3:32. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)."...

Take a better look at this, and your interpreters...Allah says: "Obey Allah and the messenger" Your interpreters would have you believe God is telling Muhammad to obey himself? God would not tell Muhammad to obey the messenger if there was not a messenger to obey. I'm sure hadith has this all worked out for you.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Son of Placid

**Ethics** · June 24, 2014

It's nice you think I have the time to rehash all this with you but truth be known, I recall playing in the mud to be much more fun as a child. In other words...I have to go get in my tractor and redo 2 acres of land back to what it was before I was flooded out. At the same time design it so this never happens again. Sorry.

You do catch on fast though, I don't have an Islamic perspective, so you can invalidate my post by not bothering to explain my misrepresentations all you like.

3:32. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)."...

Take a better look at this, and your interpreters...Allah says: "Obey Allah and the messenger" Your interpreters would have you believe God is telling Muhammad to obey himself? God would not tell Muhammad to obey the messenger if there was not a messenger to obey. I'm sure hadith has this all worked out for you.

Oh my dear christian brethren how little of Islam do you truly know of? Yet you speak as if you are teaching me my own religion? How absurd my dear. How long have you been on this site for? How many times have you brought similar points? Do you ever think to truly and respectfully learn Islam? Or your whole purpose on this forum is to spread misinformation? Do you even know what the quran is? It is revelations sent to Muhammad A.S. Meaning these verses are for mankind. Muhammad A.S is a messenger, a prophet. He guides and leads mankind. Teaches them the law of God, perfects mankind's morals.. Thus the Quran is a book of revelations to Muhammad for mankind. Clearly, Allah commanded (ie this verse) Muhammad A.S to tell the people to obey Allah and him. The quran was not for Muhammad A.S, for he has been endowed with divine knowledge. In Islam, our prophets and messengers are perfect, capable of leading mankind, not sinning. They already understand the laws of God and how to lead mankind, thus Allah choose them.

Check this article out to clear your misinformation: What kind of a book is the Quran?

(wasalam)

Edited June 24, 2014 by PureEthics

Quick Silver · June 24, 2014

It's nice you think I have the time to rehash all this with you but truth be known, I recall playing in the mud to be much more fun as a child. In other words...I have to go get in my tractor and redo 2 acres of land back to what it was before I was flooded out. At the same time design it so this never happens again. Sorry.

You do catch on fast though, I don't have an Islamic perspective, so you can invalidate my post by not bothering to explain my misrepresentations all you like. As long as we don't start lannating each other we should be fine.

3:32. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)."...

Take a better look at this, and your interpreters...Allah says: "Obey Allah and the messenger" Your interpreters would have you believe God is telling Muhammad to obey himself? God would not tell Muhammad to obey the messenger if there was not a messenger to obey. I'm sure hadith has this all worked out for you.

"Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers" Quran 3:32

Allah is telling Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to tell people to obey Allah and himself.

**placid** · June 24, 2014

Hi Ethics,

I just read your post and saw something I didn’t think that you or any Muslim would ever say,
Quote: Muslims DO NOT take the Quran as literal so for you to keep bringing up your own views with this relation is senseless and is no proof with your argument. Fourth, Hadith is also incumbent on us just as the Quran since it is the words of the representatives of God, ‘which makes it the truth.’ --- So to say, " this is hadith not Quran" is irrational from an Islamic perspective since the same Quran says obey my representatives.

--- (Do you other Muslims agree with this? --- Or is this just his poor ethics?)

Also you say, “The Quran is not enough for a way of life and we need a Godly appointed authority for interpretation.”
--- (I took time to capitalize Quran in each case, because I have respect for it.)

In the list of verses you gave from the Quran, they all have the same commandment, Obey Allah and the Messenger Muhammad.
Only 4:64 would give you any thought that it referred to any other Messenger, than Muhammad, but later in the verse it mentions him.
“We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed.” --- If you thought it meant future messengers, notice that it is written in the past tense. --- The whole context is speaking about the hypocrites, --- and this verse you missed in 4:
59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.
61 Hast thou not seen those who pretend that they believe in that which is revealed unto thee and that which was revealed before thee?
62 And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the Messenger, thou seest the hypocrites turn from thee with aversion.
64 We sent no Messenger (past tense) save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the Messenger (Muhammad), they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

You said, “Since the same Quran says obey my representatives.”
What verses were you referring to that say ‘obey my representatives’?
Remember, Muslims believe that Muhammad was the Last Prophet, and it was the message of the Quran that was revealed to him.
Also, I read that Muhammad said to his companions,
--- “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

I see in Post 19 you are still referring to the Scriptures as altered.
Quote: God condemns Christians for not following the true way (not the altered versions that you all believe to be the truth) of the Bible and Torah and commands of Jesus.
--- You also need to read post 68 on page three of the topic, “Why do you choose the Bible over the Quran.”

**baqar** · June 24, 2014

Also you say, “The Quran is not enough for a way of life and we need a Godly appointed authority for interpretation.”

Hi Placid

You have hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, that is why our Prophet asked us to follow Imam Ali after him and then his successors.

Otherwise, there would be no need for him to press on allegiance and obedience to Imam Ali.

Apart from that, any scholar of the Quran will tell you that the language and style of the Quran are not enough for easy understanding.

if they were enough, there wouldn't be so many differences of understanding between Islam's many rival denominations.

Quick Silver · June 24, 2014

Hi Placid

You have hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, that is why our Prophet asked us to follow Imam Ali after him and then his successors.

Otherwise, there would be no need for him to press on allegiance and obedience to Imam Ali.

Apart from that, any scholar of the Quran will tell you that the language and style of the Quran are not enough for easy understanding.

if they were enough, there wouldn't be so many differences of understanding between Islam's many rival denominations.

The Quran can be easily understood, it's people who choose to ignore the truths. Not a lot of scholars will say it is difficult

Allah has made it easy and understandable for a person to listen and apply too…Because on the Day of Judgement the excuse " It was difficult to understand" will not hold up, it's not an option

The basic principles can be understood, there are things which are not 100% and left to speculation but not in regards to obligatory principles.

the obligatory principles are clear

**baqar** · June 24, 2014

The Quran can be easily understood

That is not the view of the vast majority of scholars.

And as I said, if that was the case, there would not be so many differences in the interpretations of Islam's many sects.

The basic principles can be understood,

Even so, there are differences in the understanding of even some of the basic stuff, such as the famous Aya-e-Muwadda.

And the Aya-e-Tatheer and the Aya-e-Wilaya.

Apart from that, everyone knows that translations very often are not able to convey the message of the original very faithfully.

That goes not only for the Quran but also other books.

**Ethics** · June 24, 2014

QuickSilver? "Brethren" is a plural. SoP is one person. You and Silver are the only two people I know that refer to him as a plural. You aren't turning him into some sort of trinity are you?
Ibn Placid asked what new laws Muhammad brought. You've listed 3 different things: `Aqa'id (beliefs), Fiqh (laws/jurisprudence), and two words that mean permissible and forbidden respectively. Despite your clever list, I hate to break it to you, but almost all of those have parallels in Christianity.
5 Daily Prayers = Liturgy of the Hours/Agpeya
Ablution = Baptism
Hajj = Pilgrimages
Fasting = Fasting (lent & other fast days)
Hijab = Christian women are required to cover their heads according to the Bible, Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, etc.
Imamate = No Christian equivalent
Halal & Haram = Sins and not sins
Zakat = Giving to charity
Khums = Tithing
Inheritance = No Christian equivalent (the Qur'anic version doesn't add up anyways so that's a useless comparison anyways)
Burial ritual = Christian burial rituals
Direction of Prayer = East (Catholic/Orthodox)
So yeah. Of all of the things you mentioned, only 2 don't have Christian equivalents. One is a law as SoP asked for. The other is a belief.

What are our beliefs and practices, if they are not divinely decreed with certain laws? They are all indoctrinated by laws. If you do not do it properly it is wrong and can be taken as Bid'ha and a sin. There are laws constricting them, which are far from the way christianity practices them. Hence it is "new". Overriding the previous laws. Practices are controlled by rulings, ie sharia/law.

All muslims must pray 5 times a day with a specific method and times. That is a law. Plain and simple. There is a certain rule that for your prayer to be valid you must have a wudthu which is indoctrinated by a specific method else it is not acceptable. Again thats a law. All muslims must take a pilgrimage to hajj, again a law, which has its own rulings which are also laws. Fasting is also during a specific month else it isnt void. All muslims must fast. The method of fasting differs. There are restrictions during the month of fasting, again laws. Halal and haram foods, have certain rulings of which we can eat. Hijab has certain conditions else it is not hijab. Same with everything else. Although imamate maybe a belief but if one does not take them as infallible or divinely appointed or does not accept all 12, from a shia perspective, you have disobeyed Allah and committed kufr. You will die a igorant man. I am talking about the shia sect overall, but from an imami position. Imamate has conditions to be meet with the belief of it. I think you should get the point now. Did you even bother looking at the ISLAMIC LAWS website?

Anyway of course there will be similarities. Jesus A.S was our prophet. Before the bible got infiltrated, His sharia was Islam, thus we will find similarities that christians might have still held on too. The point is, there are new laws.

(wasalam)

Edited June 24, 2014 by PureEthics

**baqar** · June 25, 2014

Let the people think for themselves!

Of course, people should think for themselves.

Those days are gone when the whole of England was expected to be Protestant just because Henry VIII had fallen out of the Church.

And when the whole of France was expected to be Catholic because that was the choice of the King.

Today, England is still largely Protestant and France largely Catholic. The same goes for Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all the rest.

We think we are making our own choices but the fact is that we are still sticking to the choices made by our forefathers hundreds of years ago.

Even today, we are not truly thinking for ourselves.

We should make use of our new freedoms by thinking for ourselves and making our own choices.

But thinking for yourself is quite different from the unending warfare, which is what is happening all over the Internet.

The Internet is only 20 years old. This is only the beginning.

And in this short period, the Internet has become a breeding house for more and more hatred between human beings.

Do you really think all this will lead to peace in the world?

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