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Khalilallah

Why Do You Choose The Bible Over The Qur'an?

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Christians do not choose between the BIble and the Quran, they have nothing to do with the Quran.

 

The same is true for us. We don't choose between the Quran and Bible. We have nothing to do with the Bible.

 

As for their opinion on our Prophet, with all the anti-Islam propaganda in the world today, what do you expect?

 

Most do not have a very high opinion as they have been fed on anti-Islam propaganda all their lives.

 

The terrorists have dealt a further blow to Islam.

 

Everything that they do is quickly associated with Islam.

 

Any good opinion one might have had is easily thrown into grave doubt.

 

But happily, there are a few people in this forum who are somewhat gracious to Islam.

Edited by baqar

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I agree with much of what Baqar writes here. A fanatic minority ruins the reputation of all. Fanatics however also exist in Christian communities, and if we have a look at history we see that Christians have been no better than Muslims. Fanatism thrives where there is poverty, unrest and poor education and has in my opinion little to do with the messages of Jesus and Muhammed.

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I agree with much of what Baqar writes here. A fanatic minority ruins the reputation of all. Fanatics however also exist in Christian communities, and if we have a look at history we see that Christians have been no better than Muslims. Fanatism thrives where there is poverty, unrest and poor education and has in my opinion little to do with the messages of Jesus and Muhammed.

So do the Christians of today accept the Quran as a book of revelations from god? or do you say Mohammed is merely inspired by god rather than being a prophet?

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So do the Christians of today accept the Quran as a book of revelations from god? or do you say Mohammed is merely inspired by god rather than being a prophet?

In my opinion prophets are inspired by God, but they still are normal human beings that make errors. Jesus is according to Christian belief more than a prophet. I do not believe many Christians believe the Quran is the infallible word of God. I know of noone, except for maybe Placid that believes that both the Quran and the Bible are the infallible word of God, if I am not mistaken. (?)

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim   In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful   As salaamu alaykum.

 

 

 

 

In my opinion prophets are inspired by God, but they still are normal human beings that make errors. Jesus is according to Christian belief more than a prophet. I do not believe many Christians believe the Quran is the infallible word of God. I know of noone, except for maybe Placid that believes that both the Quran and the Bible are the infallible word of God, if I am not mistaken. (?)

 

You know of no one except Placid. By no one you are obviously including yourself. But, how, can you understand your bible without the explanations given in the Holy Qur'an.  In other words you do not know your bible. I find errors in the bible regarding the crucifixion, which obviously happened to someone else.  You can't see that, is that correct?  Wassalaam.   Faithfully999

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To understand Judaism you dont need to read the New Testament or the Quran. To understand Christianity you need to know the Jewish Bible but not the Quran. To understand the Quran you need to know the Bible. All this because of the order in which they were written.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus was crucified. The Quran say he was not, but does not say what it believes happened.

I find errors in the Bible as well as the Quran. To me a strong indication that human hand has been involved in the creation of them.

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim   In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful   As salaamu alaykum.

 

 

 

 

 

To understand Judaism you dont need to read the New Testament or the Quran. To understand Christianity you need to know the Jewish Bible but not the Quran. To understand the Quran you need to know the Bible. All this because of the order in which they were written.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus was crucified. The Quran say he was not, but does not say what it believes happened.

I find errors in the Bible as well as the Quran. To me a strong indication that human hand has been involved in the creation of them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/JewsforJudaismCanada?v=49l-g_TtGhI (Jesus PBUH, not the Messiah?)

I find myself wishing all that you said was true. You are of course entitled to your own opinions. However, at least two of your statements above, are not factual. And, I would like to know of these errors that you have found in Al-Qur'an. 

 

 

Wassalaam.   Faithfully999

 

 

 

 

 

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Jesus, Christ, Messiah, Son of God, Son of man. Jesus has got many names in the Bible. Muslims call him Prophet Jesus.

I am rather fed up discussing errors in the Quran, because with folks that believe the Quran is the infallible word of God I have experienced this is an impossible discussion. Like discussing errors in the Bible with folks that believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. If you ever tried this, maybe you understand what I mean. Errors in the Quran is also not the subject of this thread, but if you are interested here is a link:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012255-errors-contradictions-and-quran/page-7#entry2646619

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So do the Christians of today accept the Quran as a book of revelations from god? or do you say Mohammed is merely inspired by god rather than being a prophet?

 

No, ofcourse not, Christians only believe the Bible is the Word of God.

The Quran is not a book of revelations from God, and ergo, the rest stems from that Position. (Muhamad's prophethood etc).

We may say, and this is the position of the Church, that Muslims believe in the same (Abrahamic) God, but Theologically we differ greatly and no proper Christian well tell you that they believe what the proposition of your question is.

 

and with all due respect to Placid, who seems to believe in some kind of Crypto Judaic-Christian-Islamic Religion, this is not the position of Mainstream Christianity.

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Hi Sayed,

Quote from Post 1
Can a christian explain why they pick the bible over the quran?
What do christians think about our prophet?
Quote from Post 4:
So do the Christians of today accept the Quran as a book of revelations from god? or do you say Mohammed is merely inspired by god rather than being a prophet?
Quote from Post 5:
I do not believe many Christians believe the Quran is the infallible word of God. I know of noone, except for maybe Placid that believes that both the Quran and the Bible are the infallible word of God, if I am not mistaken. (?)
Quote from Post 10:
and with all due respect to Placid, who seems to believe in some kind of Crypto Judaic-Christian-Islamic Religion, this is not the position of Mainstream Christianity.

Response: --- Since I seem to be referred to in a critical and untrue manner, I guess I should respond for myself.
Your first question was “Why Christians pick the Bible over the Quran?”
--- The answer is that each Book is different.

 

The OT was given to the Jews and records their history from the beginning of God’s dealing with mankind. --- When the Jews broke their covenant with God and were going astray, God spoke through the Prophet Jeremiah in 31:31-34, about 600 BC, and prophesied that He would make a New Covenant with Israel. --- The prophecy was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus and is recorded in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So the Old Testament, includes the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, and was the Scriptures of the Jews. The Old Covenant.

Jesus was the ‘Revealing’ of the New Covenant, which fulfilled the Prophecy, --- as the angel said in Matthew 1:
20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
--- So this is the Message of the New Covenant that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, and the Holy Spirit was the Power of God in His life, through which He did the miracles of Surahs 3:49 and 5:110.

 

--- The same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus was given to His Apostles, and all who believe in Him with a pure heart. After Jesus ascended to heaven, the Apostles had the same power to heal the sick and cast out evil spirits, and as God said:
“I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts.”
So a Christian who receives Jesus as his Savior, and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in his life, has these Laws and understanding of God in his heart and mind, and is said to be “Born again” or “Born Spiritually.”
Jesus said in John 3:
3 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
--- Jesus came as Savior, and that is how people are saved --- This is the Message of the New Covenant, or New Testament.

The simple way to understand why the others criticize my Faith is because I have had this “Born again” experience, and they have not.
--- Having the Holy Spirit within gives God’s enlightenment, so that you understand the Scriptures, and recognize truth. --- Surah 5:82-85.
Next I will tell you what I believe about Muhammad and the Quran.

Placid

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The simple way to understand why the others criticize my Faith is because I have had this “Born again” experience, and they have not.

--- Having the Holy Spirit within gives God’s enlightenment, so that you understand the Scriptures, and recognize truth. --- Surah 5:82-85.

Next I will tell you what I believe about Muhammad and the Quran.

Placid

And the simple way of understanding what you say is that everyone that does not agree that the Quran and the Bible both are the true word of God have not had a "born again experience".

Since very few Christians and Muslims share your belief, the number born again people should be microscopic.

In reality there are very many born again Christians. And all our beliefs are not always identical.

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Ad with all due respect to Placid, who seems to believe in some kind of Crypto Judaic-Christian-Islamic Religion 

 

Hi Shreek

 

Everyone has the right to their beliefs.  

 

And I would think that Placid is not the only Christian whose beliefs are different from the mainstream. There are many others

 

I think Andres, for example, does not believe in the Virgin Birth.

 

In most of Northern Europe and some other places,  those who have chosen to remain Christian have only a very weak link to Christianity. Many have become atheists or agnostics.

 

I am not saying that Muslims are better in any way. Muslims have lots of similar problems.

 

All I am saying is that you cannot expect everyone to hold the same beliefs as the traditional faith.

 

And while others may not agree with everything that Placid says, at least he  makes an effort to look for commonalities in inter-faith relationships. That is clearly equivalent to a great peace effort.

 

And that is no mean acheivement.

Theologically we differ greatly and no proper Christian well tell you that they believe what the proposition of your question is.

 

No two religions agree theologically.  

 

Have you tried to compare Christianity with Hinduism or Buddhism?

 

I think there are big theological differences there too, in fact perhaps with Judaism as well.

 

You don't have to agree with me but if my understanding of Christianity is correct, I believe there is significant overlap in the moral and ethical code between Islam and Christianity.

 

There are small exceptions but in my view, the code corpus is by and large very similar. 

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Hi Sayed,

Quote from Post 1:
What do Christians think about our prophet?

Response: --- To continue from Post 12, I want to tell you why I believe that Muhammad was a Prophet.
When I first came on Shiachat in 2005, I said I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”
A few years earlier I had gotten a Quran in some books and I put it on my bookshelf thinking that I would read it sometime. --- This is a Pickthall translation that has a long introduction with the history of Muhammad, his miraculous call, --- and the history of the Muslims, recorded till Muhammad’s death.
Each Surah has an intro and as I read through it I read each intro first which gives the approximate time of writing, the situation they were in, and sometimes the reason for writing it.
Muhammad’s wife, Khadijah, was a Christian and she ‘tested the spirit’ that came to Muhammad and found it to be good. --- She encouraged him to accept the call of God to be His messenger to his own people.

At that time the Arabs in Mecca were totally given to idolatry with some 360 idols in the Kabah, the House of Prayer, and God called Muhammad to destroy idolatry and bring the people back to the worship of our One God.
--- For the first three years he taught his family and friends, --- then God said to preach publically in his home town of Mecca, which brought on persecution. --- He continued in Mecca for ten years where there was an attempt to murder him so he escaped to Madinah, where he continued preaching, and the people were coming out of Idolatry and putting Faith again in One God.
--- At the end of another ten years he completed the Mission in returning to Mecca and destroying the idols in the Kabah and restoring it to a House of Prayer, --- and bringing the worship of One God to the people and establishing daily prayer. --- He brought a temporary peace to the Arabs as they embraced Islam (The Surrender). --- This was shortly before Muhammad’s death.

So his Mission was to destroy idolatry and bring people back to worshipping God. --- He did not start a new religion, but revived the Faith of Abraham and the Prophets, of the OT.
As I read through the Quran, reading each intro before the Surah, and taking note also of the message of the Gospel in Surahs 3 and 19, of John the Baptist and Jesus, I knew that Muhammad had been called of God to be the Messenger and Prophet to his own people. --- And that he had fulfilled his Mission.
I believe the Revelations that were given to and through Muhammad to give instruction to the people. --- The Quran was written by the hands of Men as was the Bible. --- The word “Infallible” can only refer to God. Men were not infallible and certainly not the written word, that has been translated to other languages.
Even Jesus was not called ‘Infallible.’ --- However men were inspired by the Holy Spirit of God to write as God spoke through them. --- The proof of the accuracy of the OT and NT is that Prophecies were given 700 BC to the Prophet Isaiah who wouldn’t understand what he was writing, but they were fulfilled in the Gospel.
God guarded the Message of His word even through the translations and differences of interpretation.

--- There are discrepancies in the Quran as well as differences in translations, but the main truth is evident in both the Bible and the Quran.
I heard in a Lecture from Ahmad Deedat that Muhammad in named 5 times in the Quran. --- Jesus is named 25 times. --- And Moses is named 132 times.
We are first to believe in God, that means, “Have Faith beyond our natural understanding,” --- Then as we are surrendered to His will and purpose, He (God) will guide us in doing His ‘good works.’

The Quran was given to the followers of Muhammad, as the NT was given to the followers of Jesus, and as the OT Law was given to the followers of Moses.
The Quran didn’t replace the former Scriptures, but confirmed them as true in Surah 3:3 and 7, --- and Surah 5:48, that identifies the three different religions from Abraham --- We need to look at this from the perspective of Surah 5:
48 And unto thee (Muhammad) have We (God) revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher (guardian) over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, ---. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

--- Notice, --- For each we have appointed ‘a divine law,’ and ‘a traced-out way.’
--- ‘So vie one with another in good works,’ --- ‘Vie’ means to compete as in a race, each trying to ‘outdo’ the other, in this case, in doing ‘good works’ for God.
--- That is why I like to harmonize the truths of God from the Bible with the corresponding Scriptures in the Quran. --- There are really no new laws in the Quran for Christians to follow, are there?

Placid

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The problem with the modern Bible is that, as Yusuf Estes put it, when he was a Christian and delving into deep research of it he found that the Bible had to be translated many several times from the original specific form of Hebrew (Aramaic, I believe), and when he learnt that, he began reading and found that it wasn't the same, and verses which strongly correlated with the Qur'an started popping up, such as the recurrence of "God is not the son mankind", and things like that. Basically, he found huge distortions.

 

The Qur'an on the other hand, is known by most of us in Arabic, and at most we need it translated through one language, so the room for distortion is not there.

 

 

There are really no new laws in the Quran for Christians to follow, are there?

 

 

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.(3:59)
 
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten (112:3)
 
 
 
 
Edited by Haidar :)

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The problem with the modern Bible is that, as Yusuf Estes put it, when he was a Christian and delving into deep research of it he found that the Bible had to be translated many several times from the original specific form of Hebrew (Aramaic, I believe), and when he learnt that, he began reading and found that it wasn't the same, and verses which strongly correlated with the Qur'an started popping up, such as the recurrence of "God is not the son mankind", and things like that. Basically, he found huge distortions.

This is not correct. The books of the OT were written in Hebrew, not in Aramæic.

The books of NT were written in Koine Greek.

The first Bible translation was to Latin. Many Bibles were then translated from Latin. KJB for example. Today however Bibles are translated direct from Hebrew and Koine Greek

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Hi Sayed,

Quote from Post 1

Can a christian explain why they pick the bible over the quran?

What do christians think about our prophet?

Quote from Post 4:

So do the Christians of today accept the Quran as a book of revelations from god? or do you say Mohammed is merely inspired by god rather than being a prophet?

Quote from Post 5:

I do not believe many Christians believe the Quran is the infallible word of God. I know of noone, except for maybe Placid that believes that both the Quran and the Bible are the infallible word of God, if I am not mistaken. (?)

Quote from Post 10:

and with all due respect to Placid, who seems to believe in some kind of Crypto Judaic-Christian-Islamic Religion, this is not the position of Mainstream Christianity.

Response: --- Since I seem to be referred to in a critical and untrue manner, I guess I should respond for myself.

Your first question was “Why Christians pick the Bible over the Quran?”

--- The answer is that each Book is different.

 

The OT was given to the Jews and records their history from the beginning of God’s dealing with mankind. --- When the Jews broke their covenant with God and were going astray, God spoke through the Prophet Jeremiah in 31:31-34, about 600 BC, and prophesied that He would make a New Covenant with Israel. --- The prophecy was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus and is recorded in Hebrews 8:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So the Old Testament, includes the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, and was the Scriptures of the Jews. The Old Covenant.

Jesus was the ‘Revealing’ of the New Covenant, which fulfilled the Prophecy, --- as the angel said in Matthew 1:

20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

--- So this is the Message of the New Covenant that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, and the Holy Spirit was the Power of God in His life, through which He did the miracles of Surahs 3:49 and 5:110.

 

--- The same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus was given to His Apostles, and all who believe in Him with a pure heart. After Jesus ascended to heaven, the Apostles had the same power to heal the sick and cast out evil spirits, and as God said:

“I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts.”

So a Christian who receives Jesus as his Savior, and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in his life, has these Laws and understanding of God in his heart and mind, and is said to be “Born again” or “Born Spiritually.”

Jesus said in John 3:

3 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

--- Jesus came as Savior, and that is how people are saved --- This is the Message of the New Covenant, or New Testament.

The simple way to understand why the others criticize my Faith is because I have had this “Born again” experience, and they have not.

--- Having the Holy Spirit within gives God’s enlightenment, so that you understand the Scriptures, and recognize truth. --- Surah 5:82-85.

Next I will tell you what I believe about Muhammad and the Quran.

Placid

 

I enjoyed reading this post. So can we also come to a conclusion that Islam is the final and modified version of the Abrahmic faith? Before the revelation by God, Prophet Muhammad(s.w) did follow the religion of Abraham. And searched for the reason behind life and the truth in his deep meditation. Jesus(a.s) had 12 disciples after his "death", In the Shi'a faith we have 12 Imams who continued the light of Islam after the death of Prophet(s.w). So history has repeated itself? Except as stated in the Quran, There will be no prophet after Muhammad(s.w) as he is the seal of Prophets. So why not embrace Islam with this view? As a modified revised final version of the original Abraham faith.

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Hi Sayed,

Placid

Placid, you seem to have done a lot of research and you are right to believe Mohammed was a prophet and he revived the religion of the one and only God, But you are wrong to say he was for his tribe only, he was for the whole world, and he didn't just revive religion but he is the last prophet. All other prophets worked for the arrival of Mohammed. Do more research and you will see the truth.

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So can we also come to a conclusion that Islam is the final and modified version of the Abrahmic faith? 

 

Of course not. Christians will never share that view.

 

The most important reason is that Islam rejects the Trinity.   There are others of course. 

 

 But you are wrong to say he was for his tribe only, he was for the whole world, and he didn't just revive religion but he is the last prophet. 

 

He may be wrong according to your beliefs but not according to his.  

 

Do more research and you will see the truth.

 

Unless he decides to become a Muslim, a Christian who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad is as far as he would go. The fact that Placid accepts our Prophet as one is a far cry from the common Christian belief that Muhammad was a false prophet.

 

And as long as the universe lasts, Christians or rather most Christians, will continue to believe that Muhammad was a false prophet for the very simple reason - as I have said - that he categorically and vehemently rejected the divinity of Jesus. 

 

In retaliation, the Italian poet Dante, in his famous work " Inferno",   placed our Prophet and Imam Ali in hell.

 

Thomas Carlyle was the first Christian to believe that Muhammad was not a false prophet. He had great respect for the Prophet and he was simply smitten by Imam Ali.

 

In other words, if a Christian were to accept Muhammad as a true prophet, he would no longer be a true Christian. The only reason why Placid accepts him as a Prophet is because he does not believe in Jesus as God, rather as the one next to God.  In other words, as the highest being after God but not quite God. That is to say that Placid's Christianity is a little different from the mainstream - both Protestant as well as Catholic.

 

But unless he decides to become a Muslim, for which the chances are very slim, please don't expect him to come any closer.

 

We should be grateful that he has come that close.

 

But no amount of research will get him any closer unless the research is smart enough to finally lead to a profession of the faith.

Muhammad’s wife, Khadijah, was a Christian and she ‘tested the spirit’ that came to Muhammad and found it to be good. --- She encouraged him to accept the call of God to be His messenger to his own people.

 

Hi Placid

 

As I have told you before, almost every one of your sources, Pickthall included, will give you at best the Sunni version, or shall I say, one of the Sunni versions.

 

I believe you have had very little access to Shia sources all this while.

 

I am not saying that the Shia version is the right one. That is for everyone to decide for himself  but it is definitely not the same as the Sunni version.

 

Actually and to make matters worse, there are multiple versions of both.

 

Just thought I'd remind you again since you often make the mistake of accepting your sources as representative of Islamic history, which in my view, they are not.

 

Cheers 

I heard in a Lecture from Ahmad Deedat that Muhammad in named 5 times in the Quran. --- Jesus is named 25 times. --- And Moses is named 132 times.

 

There was no need to mention Muhammad more often for the simple reason that when you talk to someone, you don;t need to mention his name. Generally though not always, you only need to mention the name of a third party, not the person you are speaking to.  

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful   As salaamu alaykum.  

 

 

 

"The Bible clearly states that Jesus was crucified. The Quran say he was not, but does not say what it believes happened." --  andres

 
 
Reply:  But it does say....  
 
113. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic'."   5:113
 
 
 
 
Wassalaam.   Faithfully999
Edited by Faithfully999

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Hi Haidar,

I see you are a fairly new member, so welcome.
Quote from Post 16:
The Qur'an on the other hand, is known by most of us in Arabic, and at most we need it translated through one language, so the room for distortion is not there.

Response: --- I see that your religion is the Quran and the Ahlul Bayt, the immediate family of Muhammad’s household, which includes his daughter Fatima, her husband Ali, and their two sons, Hasan and Hussain.
--- However, the question was not about distortions but rather about believing the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran.

Here is one important point, if you claim the Quran was inspired by God, and that it is the final authority, then we can’t accept anything other than what the Quran says in our comparison with the Bible, can we?
If the Bible had been distorted then would Gabriel have known that, in 625 AD, when he told Muhammad that the Quran ‘confirmed’ that the former Scriptures were true?
If you would like to discuss, then let’s discuss specific verses in the Quran. For instance, about Abraham, or Moses leading the Children of Israel across the Red sea. --- Let’s talk about comparisons, not differences.

However, --- concerning translations, the OT was written in Hebrew and the 39 Books of the Hebrew Scriptures, was common in the time of Jesus in the first century. --- The 27 Books of the NT were written in Greek and have been translated into many different languages from the Greek Manuscripts, --- but not one from another as the critics like to say. --- If you know of any distortions in the NT please point them out and we will look at them.

One of the first languages for the NT to be translated into was Latin, as Latin was known in Jesus’ time. --- English was not a language at that time, but in the 1500’s the Douay Version was translated from the Latin Vulgate to English, and shortly thereafter, the King James Bible was translated from the oldest Greek Manuscripts.
I have copies of both the Douay, and the King James Bibles, and to compare them, the NT is the same verse by verse, except for the choice of words of the translators. --- So if you have Greek to Latin to English, --- and Greek to English and they are the same, that is evidence that they are quite accurate. --- I also have the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with the literal Greek, which compares verse by verse and line by line.
--- And if God said He ‘preserved’ them, then it is a lack of Faith in God to argue against it, because you are really arguing against God, are you not?
Also the English translation of the Codex Siniaticus from about 400 AD is the same as the King James Bible, so unless you show the distortions, they come only from the criticism of the critics and those who want to promote division.

Placid

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful As salaamu alaykum.

Reply: But it does say....

113. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic'." 5:113

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

I was speaking about your claim that the crucifixion of Jesus "obviously happened to someone else", and see no connection with a crucifixion in your post

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful   As salaamu alaykum.  

 

 

 

Salaam andres.

 

I was speaking about your claim that the crucifixion of Jesus "obviously happened to someone else", and see no connection with a crucifixion in your post

 

 

Is that because you only see when it is beneficial to you?  Why is there on connection to the crucifixion in the following verse?

 

And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic'." 5:109 A.Yusuf Ali

 

 

and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) as you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "  5:109  Dr. Mohsin

 

 

 

Wassalaam.  Faithfully999

Edited by Faithfully999

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There is a huge difference between "kill" and "violence". Dont know wich translation is incorrect, but this does not matter since 5:109 has nothink to say about someone being crucified instead of Jesus.

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful   As salaamu alaykum.

 

 

 

There is a huge difference between "kill" and "violence". Dont know wich translation is incorrect, but this does not matter since 5:109 has nothink to say about someone being crucified instead of Jesus.

 

Salaam andres.

 

 

True. There is a difference between "kill" and "violence. But, the inevitable, can and will happen. 

 

violence
noun
1. brutality, bloodshed, savagery, fighting, terrorism, frenzy, thuggery, destructiveness, bestiality, strong-arm tactics (informal), rough handling, bloodthirstiness, murderousness Twenty people were killed in the violence.
2. force, power, strength, might, ferocity, brute force, fierceness, forcefulness, powerfulness The violence of the blow forced the hammer through his skull.
3. intensity, passion, fury, force, cruelty, severity, fervour, sharpness, harshness, vehemence `There's no need,' she snapped with sudden violence.
4. power, turbulence, wildness, raging, tumult, roughness, boisterousness, storminess The house was destroyed in the violence of the storm.
Quotations
"All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" Bible: St. Matthew
"Violence is one of the most fun things to watch" [Quentin Tarantino at the screening of Pulp Fiction in Cannes]
"Keep violence in the mind"
"Where it belongs" [brian Aldiss Barefoot in the Head]   

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Violence

 

 

Wassalaam.   Faithfully999

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I choose to believe the Bible because it has been the major avenue through which God has reached me.

 

My exposure to the Quran and Islam in general has been far less.

Edited by iere

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I choose to believe the Bible because it has been the major avenue through which God has reached me.My exposure to the Quran and Islam in general has been far less.

 

That is  one of the most friendly and positive approaches I have ever come across in this forum.

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That is  one of the most friendly and positive approaches I have ever come across in this forum.

 

Well, I intend to continue that approach...just here to learn and gain more exposure to Islam.

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Hi Faithfully,

Quote from Post 21:
110. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic'." 5:110.

Response: --- While this is off topic, because of our long time discussion I would like to answer this again. --- You have emphasized the last two lines,
“And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs.”
Your emphasis means that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus, and that is exactly what it says in Surah 4:
157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
--- That is exactly right, the Jews didn’t kill or crucify Jesus.

--- We need to examine some Scripture verses to establish that fact, Jesus had been doing miracles, and healing people, but then in Matthew 23 He started to expose the sins of the Pharisees. --- In 24 He predicted that the Temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed, and in 25 He spoke of the judgments to come, and it says in 26:
1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples,
2 “You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.
5 But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.”

The Jews had no authority to kill anyone. They could condemn someone to death, but had to bring them before the Roman Governor Pilate, ---- so they did that and had a trial, and after a long discussion, Pilate declared that Jesus was not worthy of death, --- and this is recorded in Matthew 27:
22 They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

--- This was the reason the Jews were blamed for His death. In Surah 2:72 God said to the Jews, “Remember when you slew a man,’ --- and in 73 it says, “And God raised Him to life and showed you His Sign that you may understand.”
--- And after the Jews saw Jesus dead on the cross, they boasted that they had killed Him. --- But the Jews did not kill Him, neither did the Romans kill Him, --- neither did He die from the crucifixion nails, --- but when all the prophecies were fulfilled, He said, “It is finished.” --- And each of the Gospel writers record that He gave up His spirit and died. --- It says in Luke 23:
46 He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:41 (When He was on the cross) Likewise the chief priests also, mocking (Him) with the scribes and elders.
Luke 23:48 And the whole crowd who came together to that sight, seeing what had been done, beat their breasts and returned.
--- (They were feeling confident that Jesus was dead. --- But it wasn’t the Jews that killed Him, though they took the blame for His death. And boasted about it.)

Placid

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There is a huge difference between "kill" and "violence". Dont know wich translation is incorrect, but this does not matter since 5:109 has nothink to say about someone being crucified instead of Jesus.

 

The numbering varies from one Quran to another.

 

In my copy, the verse referred to in post 21 is [5:110].  

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Hi Shreek

 

Everyone has the right to their beliefs.  

 

And I would think that Placid is not the only Christian whose beliefs are different from the mainstream. There are many others

 

I think Andres, for example, does not believe in the Virgin Birth.

 

 

 

no but andres would never say the Quran is true or Mohamed is a Prophet of God.

no christian would.

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Thank you for your post but you don't have to be so loudly explicit. 

 

I could make similar statements about my opinion on other religions but I prefer to avoid disputatious subjects unless I am forced to get into them.

 

Also, please read what I said.

 

I said that Andres does not accpt the Virgin Birth.

 

I did not speak about his acceptance of the Quran or our Holy Prophet.  

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no but andres would never say the Quran is true or Mohamed is a Prophet of God.  no christian would.

 

We know that very well.

 

Likewise, no Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh or Jain believes that the Bible is true or that Jesus was true.

 

Jews believe in the Bible but not in Jesus.

 

The only people who respect and believe in Jesus are we Muslims. 

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