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kadhim

The Shaytaan And The Lizard Brain

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why are we trying to fit our beliefs with their "theories" and ideoligies? we dont need to, let the alcohol drinkers, many sexual partners, pig eaters, unwashed and najas , money hungry, life desperate, uncertain fools believe what they want

we have Allah(swt) and thanks be to Him for this amazing gift of faith which nothing can compare to or take away 

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Ive long inclined to the view that Shaytan is a metaphor for the characteristics and behaviour that manifests in us out of self exaltation or fear. If you take the narratives about him allegorically, this is the natural conclusion i think. Theyre are the characteristics in us that lead to disconnection from God consciousness - disconnection from our better selves.

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Ive long inclined to the view that Shaytan is a metaphor for the characteristics and behaviour that manifests in us out of self exaltation or fear. If you take the narratives about him allegorically, this is the natural conclusion i think. Theyre are the characteristics in us that lead to disconnection from God consciousness - disconnection from our better selves.

 

I agree, a metaphysical archetype for all that is evil in the cosmos, manifesting itself in various different ways.

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I didn't really have Icke-y conspiracy theories in mind when I posted that, no.

Quote;

 

Those tendencies come from our lower brain areas. The more recent adaptation, the higher brain, the cerebral cortex, is sort of fighting a battle to control these lower brain elements. But there's always a struggle, because this rational brain that is needed for us to adapt to modern demands is always challenged by the animal brain pulling us towards animal urges.

 

sounds very Icke-y to me , all you have to add is love somewhere in there , hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

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Quote;

 

Those tendencies come from our lower brain areas. The more recent adaptation, the higher brain, the cerebral cortex, is sort of fighting a battle to control these lower brain elements. But there's always a struggle, because this rational brain that is needed for us to adapt to modern demands is always challenged by the animal brain pulling us towards animal urges.

 

sounds very Icke-y to me , all you have to add is love somewhere in there , hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

 

Icke is all about our society supposedly being run by oligarchical alien lizards.

 

I'm not seeing a whole lot of similarity, aside from the word "lizard." 

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Icke is all about our society supposedly being run by oligarchical alien lizards.

 

I'm not seeing a whole lot of similarity, aside from the word "lizard." 

not really , he talks of the "reptilian brain " in a way like what you're saying here .

I'm not a fan of his , but you both sound very similar .

 

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Ive long inclined to the view that Shaytan is a metaphor for the characteristics and behaviour that manifests in us out of self exaltation or fear. If you take the narratives about him allegorically, this is the natural conclusion i think. Theyre are the characteristics in us that lead to disconnection from God consciousness - disconnection from our better selves.

People love inclining themselves towards lies

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not really , he talks of the "reptilian brain " in a way like what you're saying here .

I'm not a fan of his , but you both sound very similar .

 

 

A lot of people talk about the reptile lower brain. It's a basic concept in biology. If David Icke talks on the same phenomenon, then so be it. I think that's about as far as the parallels go though.

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Interesting idea occurred to me yesterday. I'm someone who has always been of the point of view that the whole controversy over evolution is way overblown, and that evolution actually fits in very nicely with a Theistic creation point of view, as long as you look at it from the right philosophical perspective. (To simplify, God is the creator and agent of change, and evolution is the history, the details of that change.)

 

One interesting field that comes out of evolution is evolutionary psychology. It looks at how certain psychological aspects of our behavior are linked to the history of the development of the human lifeform through evolution, particularly as adaptations to evolutionary challenges we faced over time. One of the powerful ideas is that certain psychological tendencies that are harmful today (like gluttony, the tendency to just overeat if we are provided with bounty, the tendency to distrust strangers or people outside our family or tribe, our tendency toward violence, our tendencies to be carried away by lust) are there within us because in earlier, more animalistic stages in the process leading to the modern human form, these traits helped our ancestors to survive. 

Those tendencies come from our lower brain areas. The more recent adaptation, the higher brain, the cerebral cortex, is sort of fighting a battle to control these lower brain elements. But there's always a struggle, because this rational brain that is needed for us to adapt to modern demands is always challenged by the animal brain pulling us towards animal urges.

 

Meanwhile in Islam, there is the talk of different types of souls, and of the mysterious Shaytaan that serves as some voice pulling us toward an animalistic path. 

 

I wonder if what was called in the pre-science days 1400 years ago, the "Shaytaan" is actually this lower, older brain?

If so, could this serve as a validation of evolutionary ideas within Islam? 

 

Discuss.

Shaytan is not the only evil power. Shaytan is just like humans, a being that was given will and was able to choose between being good or being bad. Many of his kind are good jins, many others are bad jins.

Similarly, humans can be good or bad. Prophet Muhamad was sent for both humans and jins while Shaytan works against both humans and jins. Also, in Islamic literature , there is a mention of humans Shytans (Those who go astray and pull others with them).

 

Shaytaan is an external force. The internal force towards evil is within humans. In Quran in Chaptar "Balad" the Quran says that Allah created humans with apparatus that interacts with the environment and an instinct of knowing good from bad "we have guided him the two paths".

Among the internal forces that Quran listed : Hawa(desires), Nafs Ammarah bil Sou'(an evil commanding self), wishful thinking, arrogance, pride of sinners,  misery, foolishness and asabyyiah.

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Shaytan is not the only evil power. Shaytan is just like humans, a being that was given will and was able to choose between being good or being bad. Many of his kind are good jins, many others are bad jins.

 

Shaytaan is an external force. The internal force towards evil is within humans. In Quran in Chaptar "Balad" the Quran says that Allah created humans with apparatus that interacts with the environment and an instinct of knowing good from bad "we have guided him the two paths".

Among the internal forces that Quran listed : Hawa(desires), Nafs Ammarah bil Sou'(an evil commanding self), wishful thinking, arrogance, pride of sinners,  misery, foolishness and asabyyiah.

 

 

I think you may be confusing Shaytaan with Iblees. A lot of people mix these up together, but I get the clear impression from texts that they are different.

 

I.e. Iblees is a being, a jinn, while "Shaytaan" is some murkier force that "whispers" to us.

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I think you may be confusing Shaytaan with Iblees. A lot of people mix these up together, but I get the clear impression from texts that they are different.

 

I.e. Iblees is a being, a jinn, while "Shaytaan" is some murkier force that "whispers" to us.

huh? who taught you that? there are human abalis as well.

Shaytan means the one that went astray. Iblis means the one that lost hope in the mercy of Allah. Both words are not name of the Shaytan but a description of him and his likes. I think his name was Harith.

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huh? who taught you that? there are human abalis as well.

Shaytan means the one that went astray. Iblis means the one that lost hope in the mercy of Allah. Both words are not name of the Shaytan but a description of him and his likes. I think his name was Harith.

 

From reading the same book as you. Iblees is defined as a being - that's the name given for the jinn that refused to bow to Adam. Shaytaan on the other hand is not so clearly defined, other than something that pulls us toward evil, something that whispers misguidance to us.

 

A lot of popular sort of accounts on the subject use the two interchangeably, but the two are never actually formally identified as the same thing, not in the Quran at least. 

 

Maybe the hadith literature makes a clearer joining between these two figures. But I'm not so familiar with what that literature has to say about the matter.

Edited by kadhim

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From reading the same book as you. Iblees is defined as a being - that's the name given for the jinn that refused to bow to Adam. Shaytaan on the other hand is not so clearly defined, other than something that pulls us toward evil, something that whispers misguidance to us.

 

A lot of popular sort of accounts on the subject use the two interchangeably, but the two are never actually formally identified as the same thing, not in the Quran at least. 

 

Maybe the hadith literature makes a clearer joining between these two figures. But I'm not so familiar with what that literature has to say about the matter.

Chapter 2 verse 36

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

Faazallahuma alshshaytanu AAanha faakhrajahummimma kana feehi waqulna ihbitoo baAAdukum libaAAdin AAaduwwun walakum fee alardi mustaqarrun wamataAAun ila heenin

 

Who was that Satan? Was he the same Iblis that refused to accept Adam as Khalifah or was he another entity?

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What an insecure reaction. 

 

Science is not "theirs." Science is "ours" too. Science belongs to everybody, and we are in a faith that from the start valued science as a path to understanding.

this is none other then YOUR own theory, if it had any basis and truth the Imams or Prophets would have mentioned it, or the Quran would have mentioned it

Your giving you opinion based on what? Also your demonizing a creation as if it created evil whilst God says that "everything that is from God is Good whilst everything that is bad is from you" God is not the creator of evil and bad things

This is very dangerous what your doing, your making your own rules and giving your own verdicts about Islam which you dont have the authority to do so , and the worst thing about it all is that you are basing it on conjecture and theories of science which is completely wrong and wishful thinking 

There is a great punishment promised for people who make conjecture about Islam, so if i were you i would be very careful, you dont need to do such things it is not in your jurisdiction and your arguing for something which in the end could cause you such misery and pain and its weight would be a terrible weight to endure on judgement day or in your grave (giving verdicts and theories) 

Edited by herenow477

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The Creation of Iblis

What is the difference between Satan and the carnal soul?

How does Satan influence our thoughts?

Why did Allah create Satan?

Did Satan have children, and if so, are they cursed as well?

 

---------------

 

“Satan” means “banished” or “mischievous”. In its singular form, “satan” has been used 71 times in the Qur`an and in its plural form, 18 times. Both the Qur`an and ahadith indicate that Satan is one of the jinn.

 

“Satan” is a common noun that denotes any creature that is mischievous, misleading, and delinquent, whether it be human or not. “Iblis” is a proper noun and is the ‘Arabic name of the particular satan who deceived Adam and Eve (ع) and even now lays in wait for any opportunity to deceive the sons of Adam.

 

The Arabic word “shaytan” conveys the adjectival meaning “mischievous.” The term has been used in the Qur`an in this very meaning. However, it is also used alternatively for Iblis and for any being for whom mischief has become a deep-rooted character trait. In fact the Qur`an explicitly states that a “satan” can be from the ranks of jinn or man.

 

Satan launches his assaults on mankind from every direction. As the Qur`an says:

 

“I shall approach them head on and from behind and from the right and from the left.”4

 

Satan’s exerts his influence on man’s thoughts. He launches his assaults from various fronts, of which we mention a few:

 

1. He tries to deter man from worshipping Allah (awj) according to the requirements of revelation by tempting him to act according to his own desires.

2. He influences man’s ability to think rationally so that instead of reaching conclusions based on solid reasoning, he accepts fallacies that only seem to be rational.

3. He influences man’s ability to understand reality as it is. He skews man’s understanding or convinces him to reject the possibility of understanding such reality. In this way, Satan first corrupts one’s perception of reality, then his ability to comprehend reality, and finally his actions.

 

The Qur`an and ahadith indicate that Satan and his cohorts only have influence over people who have surrendered their devotion to Allah (awj) and who—in a fit of heedlessness—have fallen into a stupor of self-conceit. Of his own admission, he has no influence over Allah’s (awj) true servants.

 

“I shall misguide them all except Your sincere servants.”5

 

In philosophical terms, Satan’s immateriality is not complete, therefore he cannot reach the lofty station that the spirits of the righteous enjoy. However, this does not stop him from trying to mislead such people.

 

People have invented a myriad of myths about jinn that do not make logical sense. If however, we strip away the myths, the basic belief in their existence is totally logical. In particular, we have no reason to believe that living beings are limited to those things we can perceive. Rather, the ahadith indicate that imperceptible beings are more in number than perceptible ones: “Allah created the jinn of five types: a type like airborne odours and fragrances, a snake-like type, a type like scorpions, a type like insects of the earth, and a type like mankind who will have to give accounts and will receive retribution.”6

 

As history attests, it is in large part because of the myths that people have created around the jinn that many otherwise rational scholars have come to deny their existence altogether. In reality, each group has lost the truth by going to extremes. Islam affirms the existence of the jinn but rejects the fantastic tales surrounding them. It is for this reason that one chapter of the Qur`an specifically addresses the topic of the jinn.

 

It is essential to remember that in the Islamic worldview, all that exists—whether they be angels, jinn, or human beings, and whether they are material or immaterial—are creations of Allah (awj), and can only act according to Allah’s (awj) will. Allah (awj) constantly reminds us in the Qur`an that no cause, whether material or immaterial, can act independently. Life and death, benefit and loss, are all subservient to His power. Therefore, one must always remember Him and trust in Him and seek sanctuary in Him. It is by establishing such a relationship with Allah (awj) that one can inoculate himself against all harm. As the Qur`an says,

 

“Nothing can harm them except by Allah’s leave.”7

 

We are also warned about human beings and jinn who are evil (literally, who are “satans”), as one author states: “Never incline towards them. Satan is the sworn enemy of Allah and man. He has taken a solemn oath to misguide you. However, his power over you is limited to whispered temptation and he can never negate your free will. The source of evil thoughts is in the human soul itself (al-nafs al-’ammarah). This aspect of the soul is the Achilles’ heel of the human being through which Satan acts. Allah (awj) has said,

 

“We created man and we know the temptations of his soul; we are closer to him than his jugular vein.8

 

He also said,

 

“Indeed as for My servants you do not have any authority over them, except the perverse who follow you.”9

 

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-18-power-satan-and-jinn

Edited by PureEthics

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A lot of people talk about the reptile lower brain. It's a basic concept in biology. If David Icke talks on the same phenomenon, then so be it. I think that's about as far as the parallels go though.

it goes further than simple biology , these people talk of the "luciferian " concept in which this lower brain , the reptilian brain creates psychopaths and sociopaths in this world .Obviously most of these people point to the elites for their reptilian cold behaviour towards humanity , deprived of love , compassion and other higher brain functions .

This luciferian concept , the reptilian , or aka fallen angel concept is the ":Shaitan " ( the accursed ) concept is much talked of within these psi sciences ( parapsychology ).

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this is none other then YOUR own theory, if it had any basis and truth the Imams or Prophets would have mentioned it, or the Quran would have mentioned it

 

 

What was the Arabic for limbic system and amygdala in 7th/8th century arabia again?

 

 

 

Your giving you opinion based on what? Also your demonizing a creation as if it created evil whilst God says that "everything that is from God is Good whilst everything that is bad is from you" God is not the creator of evil and bad things

 

This didnt make sense to me. Allah gave us the capacity for evil, where do you think that comes from in us if not the brain/mind?

 

 

 

This is very dangerous what your doing, your making your own rules and giving your own verdicts about Islam which you dont have the authority to do so , and the worst thing about it all is that you are basing it on conjecture and theories of science which is completely wrong and wishful thinking 

There is a great punishment promised for people who make conjecture about Islam, so if i were you i would be very careful, you dont need to do such things it is not in your jurisdiction and your arguing for something which in the end could cause you such misery and pain and its weight would be a terrible weight to endure on judgement day or in your grave (giving verdicts and theories)

 

Thats a great excuse for not engaging your God given intellect (as if thats even possible) and never having a conversation again.

 

Edited by Ruq

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Chapter 2 verse 36

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

Faazallahuma alshshaytanu AAanha faakhrajahummimma kana feehi waqulna ihbitoo baAAdukum libaAAdin AAaduwwun walakum fee alardi mustaqarrun wamataAAun ila heenin

 

Who was that Satan? Was he the same Iblis that refused to accept Adam as Khalifah or was he another entity?

 

As I said, I am not a mufassir, and I haven't seen what the ahadith have to say. Thus the bringing it up for discussion to see what insight others can bring.

 

As for this 2:36 passage you mention, though, I don't see a clear reason to necessarily read it as the same entity. If I just read it by itself, it could just as well be something else, something internal. 

 

This the difficulty I have. I regularly see the two concepts casually lumped together as synonyms, but have never seen discussions that actually go to the trouble of pulling the two together. I just see authors kind of assume it, take it for granted.

this is none other then YOUR own theory, if it had any basis and truth the Imams or Prophets would have mentioned it, or the Quran would have mentioned it

Your giving you opinion based on what? Also your demonizing a creation as if it created evil whilst God says that "everything that is from God is Good whilst everything that is bad is from you" God is not the creator of evil and bad things

This is very dangerous what your doing, your making your own rules and giving your own verdicts about Islam which you dont have the authority to do so , and the worst thing about it all is that you are basing it on conjecture and theories of science which is completely wrong and wishful thinking 

There is a great punishment promised for people who make conjecture about Islam, so if i were you i would be very careful, you dont need to do such things it is not in your jurisdiction and your arguing for something which in the end could cause you such misery and pain and its weight would be a terrible weight to endure on judgement day or in your grave (giving verdicts and theories) 

 

What the heck is your problem? Back off. 

 

This is a discussion forum, in case you missed the memo. People have ideas, they bring them up, and they discuss them. You don't like this one? 

The door is in the back arrow on your browser. Use it.

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PureEthics, thanks for the information posted. I'll take a closer look and then comment. What I can see from an initial glance is basis to consider the carnal or lower soul of man to be different from the Shaytaan or rather shayateen. So maybe this carnal soul is a better match for these lower brain structures than the shaytaan. 

Interesting topic however. 

 

Nice to get into an honest to goodness discussion though. Gives a good motivation to dig more deeply into the Quran in the leadup to Ramadan. 

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PureEthics, thanks for the information posted. I'll take a closer look and then comment. What I can see from an initial glance is basis to consider the carnal or lower soul of man to be different from the Shaytaan or rather shayateen. So maybe this carnal soul is a better match for these lower brain structures than the shaytaan. 

Interesting topic however. 

 

Nice to get into an honest to goodness discussion though. Gives a good motivation to dig more deeply into the Quran in the leadup to Ramadan. 

 

You are welcome brother.

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Why is it that people think that our current level of scientific progress is actually a peak of it, and that there is nothing more left to discover and then they proceed to believe that they have been provided with all or enough of the pieces of some great jigsaw puzzle that they can now piece it together to see through by racing their brains over the pieces.

 

Theory of evolution, really? Somehow I just don't feel like presenting my conjecture after reading of it. But what I do know with certainty is that Shaytaan is very real, because the Djinn are real and Shaytaan is a Djinn. I've seen them, heard them, felt them, experienced them, run into them, more than enough to know for certain. He is not your lower brain. That is your nafs. You are right about the inner struggle though. And a lot of people win it and defeat and "break" the nafs, break it like a stallion. Its easy and very doable and there is absolutely nothing in the way to stop you except your own weak willpower and lack of motivation.

 

God is the Creator, sure, but this isn't a game nor is God like a zoo keeper, adding and removing creatures for some reason. He is a lot more. More than we can imagine. Creation and creating is nothing special to Him. He doesn't need monkeys, genetic vaccines and a lot of time to breed mankind, like you were thinking.

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We have much much more to Discover. Science has not yet explained the quantum effect fully but can see from it that at a more fundamental stage than matter itself is a non-material phenomena. Probably spirit.

Another thing science hasnt been able to adequately explain is what is conscioussness. Think but it a minute. Supposedly, according to the purely material mechanistic point of view we are just machines that operate, built from flesh. But why can this machine function & experience the outside world? How can humans experience themselves if they are only the body? When people say 'i cant live with myself' what I cant live with who? The body with the brain? If i put all the organs & blood needed into a living animal, how come it doesnt live?

I dont think science can progress further before there's a paradigm shift in approach. The official doctrine is still that the universe is only material & mechanic

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Why is it that people think that our current level of scientific progress is actually a peak of it, and that there is nothing more left to discover and then they proceed to believe that they have been provided with all or enough of the pieces of some great jigsaw puzzle that they can now piece it together to see through by racing their brains over the pieces.

 

Theory of evolution, really? Somehow I just don't feel like presenting my conjecture after reading of it. But what I do know with certainty is that Shaytaan is very real, because the Djinn are real and Shaytaan is a Djinn. I've seen them, heard them, felt them, experienced them, run into them, more than enough to know for certain. He is not your lower brain. That is your nafs. You are right about the inner struggle though. And a lot of people win it and defeat and "break" the nafs, break it like a stallion. Its easy and very doable and there is absolutely nothing in the way to stop you except your own weak willpower and lack of motivation.

 

God is the Creator, sure, but this isn't a game nor is God like a zoo keeper, adding and removing creatures for some reason. He is a lot more. More than we can imagine. Creation and creating is nothing special to Him. He doesn't need monkeys, genetic vaccines and a lot of time to breed mankind, like you were thinking.

 

Who said science is finished? You make a lot of assumptions.

 

He could have made us in any number of ways. He could have winked the whole universe, stars, galaxies, etc into their final state in an instant rather than this whole big bang process over 14 billion years. Somehow no one sees that idea as some threat, no one says, "this is heresy, God can say "Be" and it is, and doesn't need 10 billion years to make the earth." People just accept, "ok, He didn't have to, but He did."

 

As for the creation of humans, the overwhelming scientific evidence however indicates that he created us over a long period of time. He didn't "have to" do it that way, but it is beyond clear that He did. We ought to come to terms with that rather than knee jerk fighting against it. 

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Oh but you do have everything figured as I wrote. Overwhelming scientific evidence. Mix in theory of natural selection, some flour and eggs and you're ready to bake your cake. What assumptions though? ^ Hmm, what else could you be talking about. You want more stepping stones to finally manage and create a pavement between Darwinism and Theism. Isn't that what you want?

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this is none other then YOUR own theory, if it had any basis and truth the Imams or Prophets would have mentioned it, or the Quran would have mentioned it

Your giving you opinion based on what? Also your demonizing a creation as if it created evil whilst God says that "everything that is from God is Good whilst everything that is bad is from you" God is not the creator of evil and bad things

This is very dangerous what your doing, your making your own rules and giving your own verdicts about Islam which you dont have the authority to do so , and the worst thing about it all is that you are basing it on conjecture and theories of science which is completely wrong and wishful thinking 

There is a great punishment promised for people who make conjecture about Islam, so if i were you i would be very careful, you dont need to do such things it is not in your jurisdiction and your arguing for something which in the end could cause you such misery and pain and its weight would be a terrible weight to endure on judgement day or in your grave (giving verdicts and theories) 

Stop waving your mental chains around as if they are made of gold.

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I guess Shaytan was cutting paper dolls for 9 billion years as he waited for man to finish. I've also written that there are simply too many incompatibilities. Its not going to happen bro.

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I guess Shaytan was cutting paper dolls for 9 billion years as he waited for man to finish. I've also written that there are simply too many incompatibilities. Its not going to happen bro.

 

Well, seeing as there wasn't even an earth until about 9 billion years in ... 

Oh but you do have everything figured as I wrote. Overwhelming scientific evidence. Mix in theory of natural selection, some flour and eggs and you're ready to bake your cake. What assumptions though? ^ Hmm, what else could you be talking about. You want more stepping stones to finally manage and create a pavement between Darwinism and Theism. Isn't that what you want?

 

Well, first, "Darwinism" isn't even a thing. You're not making a good impression of your general competence level to comment if you're using terms that are ~ 150 years out of date. 

 

Secondly, in terms of "creating a pavement" between Evolution and Theism, it's making a false division between evolution and the rest of science. The same distinction between First Cause and Near Cause / Material cause that reconciles between "God is the cause of every thing" and "this is the scientific cause of that" applies to evolutionary development of species as for example the laws that govern the turning of the planets around the sun. We can say God makes it happen AND we can say it's due to gravity and not feel a contradiction. I don't have to "make a pavement;" the medieval philosophers worked out how to get your head around these sorts of issues 900 years ago.

 

But, I mean, if you want to follow in the philosophically illiterate footsteps of American Evangelical rednecks, be my guest. It's a free country.

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kadhim,

I have produced below a set of verses from Surah Shu'ara (Chapter of the Poets) which demonstrate clearly that there is no actual distinction between iblees and the shayateen in terms of their physical reality. The latter could be considered to be an offspring, while iblees acts as a sort of ringleader (or so I've discovered within ahadeeth and other sources.) Nevertheless, the following verses describe the "shayateen" in too literal a manner to be considered even remotely "metaphorical." Moreover, the exegeses treat the following verses in a literal way too.

I challenge you to prove otherwise. Focus especially on the parts I have highlighted in bold:

And the devils (shayateen) have not brought the revelation down.

26:210

It is not allowable for them, nor would they be able.

26:211

Indeed they, from [its] hearing, are removed.

26:212

-----

Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend?

26:221

They descend upon every sinful liar.

26:222

They pass on what is heard, and most of them are liars.

26:223

And the poets - [only] the deviators follow them;

26:224

Do you not see that in every valley they roam?

26:225

And that they say what they do not do?

26:226

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Interesting thought.  One thing that goes against it is Dua for Tuesday attributed to Imam Sajjad [a]:

 

http://www.duas.org/tuesday.htm

 

I take refuge with Him from the evils of the Nafs, indeed the Nafs would lead astray unto evil, if not my Lord is merciful (to me); I take refuge with Him, from the evil of the Shaytaan, who piles high sins, one upon another; I guard (myself), with His help, against every cruel wrongdoer, unjust ruler, and harmful adversary.

 

First the evils of the nafs are mentioned, and then the evils of the shaytaan.  The most natural reading is to attribute the animalistic desires that you mention to the nafs  This would imply that the Shaytaan is something external to us.

 

btw contemporary evolutionists refer to their theory as 'darwinism' : http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=darwinism&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

Edited by .InshAllah.

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I'm not sure why you feel the need to "challenge" me to "prove" anything. That's very aggressive of you. I'm just putting up ideas for discussion; I suggest you carry yourself in a more respectful way. If you have something that suggests the idea doesn't stand, then just post it. You don't have to make it into some clash of egos.

 

RE: the verses, I'm not really sure what to make of it. It's suggestive, but that's as far as it goes. 

Note also that you seem to be confusing the subject from 2:223 onward.

26:223 - "they" is probably the people, the untruthful people

26:225 - "they" is the poets. 

26:226 - same

 

Note too that while the root n-z-l has a primary meaning related to "descent," it also refers to revelation of something. As well, "descend upon" is also figurative for one thing sort of assailing, in whatever fashion, the second thing. So it's not necessarily referring to a movement from one physical place to another.

 

But I'll review further and take it under consideration.

 


Interesting thought.  One thing that goes against it is Dua for Tuesday attributed to Imam Sajjad [a]:

 

http://www.duas.org/tuesday.htm

 

I take refuge with Him from the evils of the Nafs, indeed the Nafs would lead astray unto evil, if not my Lord is merciful (to me); I take refuge with Him, from the evil of the Shaytaan, who piles high sins, one upon another; I guard (myself), with His help, against every cruel wrongdoer, unjust ruler, and harmful adversary.

 

First the evils of the nafs are mentioned, and then the evils of the shaytaan.  The most natural reading is to attribute the animalistic desires that you mention to the nafs  This would imply that the Shaytaan is something external to us.

 

btw contemporary evolutionists refer to their theory as 'darwinism' : http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=darwinism&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

 

 

 

Aye, I think I've made it clear in earlier posts in this thread that I'm ready to acknowledge that the lower brain probably correlates better with the "lower soul" or "lower self."  

 

Cherry pickers can cherry pick, but Darwinism is not a mainstream biology terminology today. It's way out of date. It's moved way beyond Darwin. I mean, Darwin is pre-DNA, pre-molecular biology, pre-radioactive dating. It's kind of like calling mechanics or gravitation "Newtonianism." Darwin was the first in the modern picture to popularize the idea, but that's about it.

Edited by kadhim

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