Quran-Only Islam Is The Only Religion Of Allah

mclinkin94 · May 27, 2014

Aslamu Alaikum!

I know that many people here disagree with me and before you read, I need you to have an open mind. Nothing in my post is meant to be offensive--it should just be an explanation of Allah's true religion.

I do consider the Sunni, shias and all the other hadith following sects of Islam disbelievers. This is because they are rejecting the Quran and following hadiths. My main point here is to present arguments for Quran-Only Islam and hope to debate with you. I haven't had much debate experience with shia's--Mostly with sunnis and many sunnis disappoint me in their debates. I see too much rhetoric, too much appeal to popularity/authority fallacies, too much arrogance and misinterpretation of clear Quranic verses. So this is why I am here. I hope that Shia's are more open minded and inviting to Allah's verses.

I want to let you know that I am not entirely well read in the shia hadiths as I am in the sunni hadiths. All I know is that such an ideology is against the Quran.

I will start by mentioning the flaws in following hadiths:

Now a quick run through of a flaw in the hadith (or shall I call it the telephone game or chinese whispers)

Flaw 1) The Quran says NOTHING or even mentions the hadiths or following them. If the Quran is the only source of law and says nothing of hadiths and tells us to not follow any other book, then following hadiths are not a commandment from Allah. And if you are a follower of hadiths you are NOT a Muslim (submitter). You disregarded Allah's strict commandment.

Flaw 2) The 'science' of hadiths is bad philosophy and hardly a science. First of all hadiths are chinese whispers, it is like the telophone game in elementary school where you whisper things to student and the student whispers to the next in the whole class. How often is the last whisper the same as the original? Secondly, the hadith collectors decided to collect hadiths and call them 'sahih' based on the character of the hadith whisper chain. Now the issue is, couldn't the fabricator also fabricate the chain of narrations. I could go on and on, but I will later.

Flaw 3) The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. The majority of these hadith are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000, that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This gives us an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door. Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His book which is described as the only authentic hadith, the only acceptable hadith and the best hadith.

IF that is how much corruption entered in the hadiths, then that should make you think about the nature of hadiths and how they are nothing more than fabrications. I'm sure Bukhari and Moslem are infallible and they would pick the right ones. LOL!! 700,000 hadiths, 99% corruption according to Bukhari. Again LOL ;D

What does the Quran say about that:

[Quran 6:112] And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

I believe that all of my beliefs are rational and reasonable. I am open minded and I would be 100% willing to dump a dead belief system. Hadiths are that belief system. You'd have to reach a new height in irrationality to believe in that nonsense even despite the Quran tells us NOT to.

Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [besides the Quran],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

Muhammad can not make up ANYTHING about Islam/Allah--everything he states was in the Quran. He was literally a walking Quran. He judges by the Quran and the Quran only.

If I had to give one verse that completely defeats the hadith scene, it would be this one:

Quran 45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement other than Allah and His verses will they believe?

Let's break this verse down. The beginning of the verse talks about the Quran. THESE are the verses of Allah in which we recite to you in truth. It is speaking of the Quran. You MUST agree with this as any honest person would. A sentence later, Allah tells you in what statement other than THESE verses will YOU believe?

That means no other religious statement other than what is in THOSE verses can be believed.

What does the word "THESE" refer to? If I write a book and within the book I say "THESE are the sentences that we write to you. What statement will you follow besides me and my sentences". What does not refer to? It refers to the sentences of the Book. So when Allah says THESE are my revelations that I recite to you, it means the Quran is Allah revelations that are recited to you--in what statement besides Allah's revelations (Quran) will you believe.

Please spare me the "obey the messenger" thing. I have heard that too many times and have defeated it. If you want to hear my arguments against that, let me know.

mclinkin94 · May 29, 2014

Bump. I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable debates me here!

herenow477 · May 29, 2014

Bump. I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable debates me here!

there is nothing intelligent to debate here, firstly if we just follow Quran on its own literal sense, how do you define how to pray? how do you define rules of fasting, how do you define other rules in complex society scenarios

really the Quran on its own cannot make rules and laws except the most obvious ones, but important details are not mentioned but yet the Quran does say "pray" and "fast" etc but doesnt define them

and other things like taking medication during fasting, food rules and laws, all of these things need an opinion , someones opinion and guidance

Edited May 29, 2014 by herenow477

**notme** · May 29, 2014

I'm not that knowledgeable so I won't attempt to debate you. But you do seem to be unaware that Shia do not have "sahih" books of hadith. Any hadith, no matter the claimed source, which contradicts the Quran, is false. There is logic and cross-checking against other traditions, not just claimed chain of narration like Sunni hadith.

If you want to learn what Shia believe, I recommend A Shiite Encyclopedia. You can probably find it online.

Ali Musaaa :) · May 29, 2014

Bump. I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable debates me here!

I do hope you're not serious..

**Ethics** · May 29, 2014

Simple, the quran alone is not a complete book of guidance. It does not contain all matters. Therefore, from that standpoint alone, God is not all guiding. Hence, this religion is incomplete and unworthy of following. It is therefore, not perfect.

Another simple point. The quran is clearly not a literal book. Since quranists take the book literal or translate it by their own interpretations, this yet again contradicts the notion of a perfect religion. For a perfect religion is consistent and does not change accordingly by personal opinion.

[shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

(wasalam)

Edited May 29, 2014 by PureEthics

**iraqi_shia** · May 29, 2014

mclinkin94,

Greetings, when you say you are "Quran only", what do you do when the Quran tells you to obey the Prophet, and those in authority among you?

Regards,

Lordofgemini · May 29, 2014

This might be interesting to see how a quranist proves his points first time seeing one O.O *blink* and what a co incidence I also believe quranist/literalist to be unbelievers since they don't follow the living Quran and follow a book. And I mean no offense ~i am just excited.

How do you even know about the all the events during the prophets(s) life? And all the complete stories of other prophets

How to pray, azaan for namaz, what to say in ruku; sajdah and so much more.

And rest assured please do inform us were we reject the Quran and follow hadith instead.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Lordofgemini

mclinkin94 · May 29, 2014

there is nothing intelligent to debate here, firstly if we just follow Quran on its own literal sense, how do you define how to pray? how do you define rules of fasting, how do you define other rules in complex society scenarios
really the Quran on its own cannot make rules and laws except the most obvious ones, but important details are not mentioned but yet the Quran does say "pray" and "fast" etc but doesnt define them
and other things like taking medication during fasting, food rules and laws, all of these things need an opinion , someones opinion and guidance

I hope you are not suggesting a contradiction in Allahs;s words saying that the Quran is fully detailed.

The Quran has everything you need to do, including prayer and fasting. The Quran didn't detail the specifics and that is because the specifics don't matter to Allah. Just pray, worship Allah and fast.

Simple, the quran alone is not a complete book of guidance. It does not contain all matters. Therefore, from that standpoint alone, God is not all guiding. Hence, this religion is incomplete and unworthy of following. It is therefore, not perfect.

Another simple point. The quran is clearly not a literal book. Since quranists take the book literal or translate it by their own interpretations, this yet again contradicts the notion of a perfect religion. For a perfect religion is consistent and does not change accordingly by personal opinion.

[shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

(wasalam)

The Quran is interpreted by nothing more than the Quran. We Quranists use a hollistic approach to debate the Quran.

Allah has promised in the Quran that he will explain the Quran by repeating verses and in many verses you read "See how we explain the Quran".

If you say the Quran is not a complete book then you are contradicting the Quran when it says it has all the details!

Now even among the sunni and shia sects, the Quranic interpretations differ between scholars--that doesn't invalidate the verses themselves. The best way to interpret the Quran is to break it down linguistically, read the context, and compare the verses with other Quranic verses.

mclinkin94,

Greetings, when you say you are "Quran only", what do you do when the Quran tells you to obey the Prophet, and those in authority among you?

Regards,

Obeying the prophet means obeying the message. The Quran informs us the message is the Quran.

As far as those in authority among you, it does NOT mean the scholars! Remember the Quranic verses should be interpreted in light of other verses.

Do these words rightly give the religious guru's their claimed right to control the people and be entitled to receive the total obedience of the believers?

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

1- For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.

2- For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.

3- For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession.

4- For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.

This might be interesting to see how a quranist proves his points first time seeing one O.O *blink* and what a co incidence I also believe quranist/literalist to be unbelievers since they don't follow the living Quran and follow a book. And I mean no offense ~i am just excited.
How do you even know about the all the events during the prophets(s) life? And all the complete stories of other prophets
How to pray, azaan for namaz, what to say in ruku; sajdah and so much more.
And rest assured please do inform us were we reject the Quran and follow hadith instead.

Quranists are not always literalists :) I believe that some Quranic verses do have esoteric meanings to them and others are 100% clear. The ones that say that the Quran is the ONLY source of law and has details of everything cannot be rationally interpreted any other way. The Quran is all we need, nothing else.

If anything contradicts a Quranic verse, dump it.

We don't need to know the events of the prophet and even if hadiths provide that, it doesn't authorize them as another source of law!

How to pray? It is simple! It is much different than the sunni/shia methods of prayer, but don't act like the Quran didn't explain how Allah wants us to pray.

To say that the Quran doesn't have the details contradicts the Quran!

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115

”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111

”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters” 16:89

In spite of the very clear words: “fully detailed”, “details of everything” and “explanations for everything” the corrupt interpreters somehow still claim that the Quran does not include all the details! Sadly, they claim that the Quran has only mentioned the major outlines of the religion while as the details of everyday rituals are only to be found in the Hadith and Sunna!

These false claims only go to expose these people’s ignorance of the Quran, and also their disbelief in God's words.

I'm wondering how the Shia sect of Islam reconcile their hadiths with these above Quranic verses that make it clear the Quran has explanations of everything we need to follow Islam. I don't see a possible reconciliation, yet I am open to the shia opinions!

**Ethics** · May 29, 2014

The Quran is interpreted by nothing more than the Quran. We Quranists use a hollistic approach to debate the Quran.

Allah has promised in the Quran that he will explain the Quran by repeating verses and in many verses you read "See how we explain the Quran".

If you say the Quran is not a complete book then you are contradicting the Quran when it says it has all the details!

Now even among the sunni and shia sects, the Quranic interpretations differ between scholars--that doesn't invalidate the verses themselves. The best way to interpret the Quran is to break it down linguistically, read the context, and compare the verses with other Quranic verses.

Your first statement is logically flawed for it contradicts the verse I have posted from the Holy Quran it self. It clearly states, that only Allah and those vested by Allah with the power to interpret the quran, truly understand it. Allah also vociferously condemns those who interpret the quran by their own ways, of which yours specifically is not supported by the quran.

Third statement is also rationally flawed for it does not contain for example, permissibility on using stem cells, or eating foods that which contain gelatin. These are just two of countless other examples I can bring up. If anyone simply thinks a book of about what, 600 pages, contains every single practice for your way of life, is clearly irrational and flawed in their way of thinking. It cannot be a way of life, when life itself is advancing while what is in the quran does not touch every single subject in depth. Hence, Allah must have a source that systematically connects to the holy quran by Allah's will, that also is chosen by Allah and given the ability to interpret such a divine book, which touches all fractions of life. Hence, it is hadith, spoken traditions of the chosen beings of Allah, the prophets and imams, who are the walking examples of the quran, and are endowed with the true understanding.

True, many interpret and translate the quran, but it is when it confines with the traditions of the representatives of Allah, it becomes the true meaning of the holy quran. That is what our scholars due. It is this reason why the shia and sunni disagree, when it comes down to choosing representatives of Allah, for the source that which connects the quran changes. Thus, we end up with the wrong understandings of the quran. But for quranists to think anyone has the ability to do such a thing is rationally mistaken, for it is impossible for beings, whom of which are fundamentally different, to come to a consistent understanding, unless, it is from divine decree, beings chosen by Allah, who submit to Allah fully, and those whom interpret the quran by those standards supported by the teachings of such chosen beings.

Do not get me wrong here. In Shia Islam, we have a science to authenticate hadith to check and find true hadiths from false ones. We do not accept just any hadith, especially ones that contradict the quran. Which is what literally our prophets and imams have seriously stated. It must not go against the holy quran. It is a very lengthy and indepth subject. For those of you who wish to understand this point of view rationally and fairly, check these links out:

What are the names of Shia's most important Hadith collections (sources)?

How can we be assured of the issuance of hadiths from the infallible imams?

What are the methods for distinguishing between the authentic ḥadīths and the unauthentic ones?

(wasalam)

Edited May 29, 2014 by PureEthics

Wisdom Lion · May 29, 2014

Bump. I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable debates me here!

Quran3:31

"Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Quran 48:10

"Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah . The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward."

Edited May 29, 2014 by Wisdom Lion

mclinkin94 · May 29, 2014

(1)Your first statement is logically flawed for it contradicts the verse I have posted from the Holy Quran it self. It clearly states, that only Allah and those vested by Allah with the power to interpret the quran, truly understand it. Allah also vociferously condemns those who interpret the quran by their own ways, of which yours specifically is not supported by the quran.

(2) Third statement is also rationally flawed for it does not contain for example, permissibility on using stem cells, or eating foods that which contain gelatin. These are just two of countless other examples I can bring up. If anyone simply thinks a book of about what, 600 pages, contains every single practice for your way of life, is clearly irrational and flawed in their way of thinking. It cannot be a way of life, when life itself is advancing while what is in the quran does not touch every single subject in depth. Hence, Allah must have a source that systematically connects to the holy quran by Allah's will, that also is chosen by Allah and given the ability to interpret such a divine book, which touches all fractions of life. Hence, it is hadith, spoken traditions of the chosen beings of Allah, the prophets and imams, who are the walking examples of the quran, and are endowed with the true understanding.

(3) True, many interpret and translate the quran, but it is when it confines with the traditions of the representatives of Allah, it becomes the true meaning of the holy quran. That is what our scholars due. It is this reason why the shia and sunni disagree, when it comes down to choosing representatives of Allah, for the source that which connects the quran changes. Thus, we end up with the wrong understandings of the quran. But for quranists to think anyone has the ability to do such a thing is rationally mistaken, for it is impossible for beings, whom of which are fundamentally different, to come to a consistent understanding, unless, it is from divine decree, beings chosen by Allah, who submit to Allah fully, and those whom interpret the quran by those standards supported by the teachings of such chosen beings.

(4) Do not get me wrong here. In Shia Islam, we have a science to authenticate hadith to check and find true hadiths from false ones. We do not accept just any hadith, especially ones that contradict the quran. Which is what literally our prophets and imams have seriously stated. It must not go against the holy quran. It is a very lengthy and indepth subject. For those of you who wish to understand this point of view rationally and fairly, check these links out:

I've numbered your points for easy reference. I'm sorry but #3 had to be long because I really had to explain it. Please please read it, don't disregard it. I will promise to keep it short from now on.

(1) No, Quran 3:7 is speaking about the allegorical verses. It clearly states that there are clear verses in it and allegorical ones. The clear ones are the ones that I cite--(The Quran is the only source of law, do not follow anything besides it etc.)

(2) No, you got it all wrong. Let me give an analogy. If a professor tells you, your textbook is complete contains everything and made no exceptions--What are you going to believe? You are going to say that the textbook has everything that is relevant to the course. That does not mean that you can go to another textbook and say that "this other textbook has things relevant to the course that is not in the textbook the professor authorized" The only things that are relevant in the course is everything in the professor's textbook. If any other textbook contains anything else that is not mentioned in the professor's textbook, it is NOT relevant to the course.

So when the Quran says it has details of everything, it means everything relevant to Islam. It will not explain how to bake an apple pie or how to regenerate limbs from stem cells. Just like when a professor says the textbook has everything you need to know--you do not assume that the textbook is going to teach you how to bake an apple pie (which you might need to know), rather, you know that he meant everything you need to know for this course.

Given the above verse, it is logically impossible to say that the Quran is not fully detailed on matters of Islam. It clearly stated that it has details of everything.

(3) The thing is we don't need representatives of Allah. Quran 3:7 says that those of understanding could understand the esoteric meanings of the Quran. That doesn't meant the Quran says that only the prophet and Imams can understand the Quran. Those with knowledge and understanding would understand the Quran.

Allah informs us that His Book has been kept independent of all sorts of traditions for its exegesis, by indicating that the Qur’an is its own commentary.

The Qur'an is not like an ordinary book, such that most other books discuss a specific topic at one place and have their subjects compiled and bifurcated within specific chapters.

Unlike this, the Book of Allah has its topics spread out throughout itself within various chapters. For example, if we were to ascertain as to what Allah's Book says about the topic of divorce we find verses dealing with the subject of divorce in Surah Al-Baqara which is the second Surah (chapter) of the Qur'an, Surah Al Nisa the fourth Chapter , then in Surah Al Ahzaab the thirty third chapter and further in Sura At Tal'aaq which is the sixty fifth chapter of the Qur'an.

By compiling all the verses about the topic of divorce as discussed in all the locations of the Qur'an we come to know what the Book of Allah has to say about this subject. And we observe that each verse clarifies and explains the other. It is by this manner that Allah Himself has dealt with different subjects in His Book, i.e. by repeating topics in various chapters throughout the Qur'an. The manner of exegesis is <Tasreef ul Ayaat> or recurrence and repetition of subjects within the Qur’anic verses, and it is by this method that the Book of Allah deals with various topics and provides its own explanation. We are reminded:

"See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

"And certainly We have repeated for mankind in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but the majority of mankind do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89)

Allah Himself has circulated topics within His Book, and what is unclear at one passage is made distinct by another verse in another passage within the Qur’an itself. One verse will throw light on the other. Furthermore we are informed that the messenger of Allah also explained the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself:

"And thus do We repeat the verses and that they may say: You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know." (6:108)

It is evident from the above that the messenger’s lectures on the Qur’an were based on <tasreef_ul_ayat>, i.e. recurrence of Ayat, to clarify topics within the Qur’an. The messenger gave Dars ul Qur-an, by this manner, and the Qur’an was clarified by the Qur’an itself. This is further supported in Surah Al-Furqan, where a certain objection of the unbelievers is identified:

"The unbelievers say: "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually. And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best explanation." (25:32-33)

The above verses inform us about a matter of grave importance. To the objection of unbelievers as to why is not the Qur’an revealed all at once, it is stated that the Qur’an is revealed in stages due to the following reasons:

1.) So that the messengers heart may be strenghtened. This is confirmed when it is stated: "Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually." Hence the messenger was encouraged and enjoined to be stead fast by the revelation of Qur’anic verses.

2.) So that the arguments that the unbelievers may bring forth should be answered sufficiently by ‘Haqq’, i.e. the Qur’anic truth. As it is stated: "And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth.."

3.) The third reason for the gradual descent of the Qur’an is to provide <Ahsan_ul_Tafsir>, i.e. the best explanation and exegesis of Allah’s Book.

"And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best ‘Tafsir’ (exegesis)" (25:33)

Thus Allah revealed verses which provided Tafsir of other verses themselves. What remained ambigous in one verse, its clarification and exegesis was provided by Allah Himself by the gradual descent of other verses of the Qur’an. Hence Allah provided the Tafsir of the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself, and did not make His Book dependent on any compilations of traditions for its exegesis. It is by this manner that Allah gave the Tafsir of His Book to the messenger and the messenger inturn conveyed to his audience. The messenger did not give any separate book of Tafsir to the Ummah as the Tafsir of the Qur’an which he imparted on the Ummah was contained inside the pages of the Qur’an itself.

While it is identified that the Qur’an explains its self by repetition of verses, we are also instructed to ponder and reflect on Allah’s Book, for the message of the Qur’an will be evident to those who will strive to comprehend its meaning and conduct research on it. It is mentioned that those who will use their faculties of understanding and engage in an inquiry into the meaning of the divine message, for them the Qur’anic verses will be rendered plain:

"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)

"Indeed We have made the verses distinct for a people who will utilize their understanding." (6:98)

Along with stating the above, we are also advocated to ponder and reflect on the Book:

"A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful." (38:29)

Thus the injunction to reflect and ponder over the Book has been given for all generations, so that in the light of divine guidance they seek the solutions to the problems of their times. The meaning of the Qur’an will be made clear by the repetition of verses and likewise people are asked to use their abilities of reason and intellect to understand the Qur’an. The following verses shed further light in stating that the meaning of Allah’s Book will be evident by <Tasreef ul Ayat> and it is in this manner that Qur’an should be understood:

" See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

"See how We repeat the verses, yet they turn away (from the truth rendered by recurrence of Ayat)." (6:46)

Note: the word for 'repeat' is also correctly translated as 'explain'. So if Allah explains the verses in the Quran through the Quran, is there really a need to follow the prophet's explanation of the Quran? All we need to do is read the Quran to understand it! We don't need another revelation to understand it.

It is Allah, who is the ‘Mufasir’ i.e commentator of the Qur’an, and the Tafsir of one verse was provided by the revelation of other verses which would throw light on the subject under discussion. Thus it is said:

"Ar-Rahmaan (The Beneficent God). It is He who teaches the Qur’an." (55:1-2)

Not only was the revelation, compilation and protection of the Book taken up by Allah himself, but also its explanation. As we are informed:

"Do not move your tongue with this (Qur'an) to make haste with it. Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it. Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation. Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it." (75:16-19)

Here Allah relieves the prophet from explaining the Quran and says the duty is on Allah.

Hence it is Allah who provides the Tafsir of His Book by <Tasreef ul Ayat>, that is, by repetition of verses.

So I think this puts the theory that we need Imams to explain the Quran down. Imams are not infallible and they are not God. This whole thing you are arguing makes an idol out of the Imams. The Quran is clear that we only need the Quran and nothing else.

(4) the problem with these types of sources is that the science themselves have many flaws and not only that it is not authorized in the Quran. The Quran has details of everything. If Allah wanted us to follow Hadiths, Imams, he would have said that the Quran does not have details of everything and refer you to the teachings of the prophet and Imams!!! Certainly, Allah is not short of words!

mclinkin94 · May 29, 2014

Quran3:31
"Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Quran 48:10
"Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah . The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward."

Hello brother,

If you follow the prophet then you follow the Quran which means you follow Allah. That is because the prophet was given the Quran and told to judge by it and nothing else.

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

From the above Qur’anic evidence it is clearly established that obedience to the messenger is not obedience to his personal orders but to the divine laws that have been revealed on him, and that Allah and his messenger are not two separate obedience but it is a term which stands for one single source of divine law and obedience.

What was revealed to the messenger. What did the Quran tell us was revealed to the messenger? Did the Quran say there is another source of law besides the Quran that was revealed to the messenger? We both know the answer to that is NO.

Take a look here:

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

Wouldn't this verse be the perfect place to show the other revelation that the prophet allegedly received?

Ali Musaaa :) · May 30, 2014

McLinkin,

Did you pray Fajr this morning? Can you tell me how many Rakahs are in Fajr? Prove to me using only the Qur'ān that Fajr is not 15 Rakahs.

**hasanhh** · May 30, 2014

(salam) ya'll,

Now eyes gonna take the Charlie Brown Position -similar to Ali Musaaa:) in post #5:

"Oh, Good Grief"

mahdi servant.01 · May 30, 2014

Bump. I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable debates me here!

salamun alaykum

if we want to debate about a topic we should stick to the rules of the argument. read the answers carefully, put the prejudice aside, do not think that our idea is the reality, seek the truth even if it was against us.

this is not the first time I have encountered this idea of being a pure quranist, but there are some ambiguous points as regards what you said that seem unanswered.

1. what the other brothers have mentioned pertaining detailed info which have not been explained in Quran, that I think you run away answering them.

2. the quranic verses that refer the Muslim to the traditions, at least the narrations of the prophet. and let's say at the time of the prophet , we Inshallah discuss about the chains of hadith through the ages later on. but for the stepping-stone let's accept that the quran itself, regardless the prophet is not going to benefit us according to the this verse:

وَ أَنْزَلْنا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ‏ لِلنَّاسِ ما نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (44)

وَ ما أَنْزَلْنا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتابَ إِلاَّ لِتُبَيِّنَ‏ لَهُمُ الَّذِي اخْتَلَفُوا فيهِ وَ هُدىً وَ رَحْمَةً لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ (64)

We have sent down the reminder to you so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect.( 44)

We did not send down the Book to you except[ for the purpose ]that you may clarify for them what they differ about, and as a guidance and mercy for a people who have faith.( 64 )

if quran needs clarification, so prophet's traditions are required!

best regards.

Edited May 30, 2014 by mahdi servant.01

Lordofgemini · May 30, 2014

Do these words rightly give the religious guru's their claimed right to control the people and be entitled to receive the total obedience of the believers?

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

1- For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.

2- For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.

3- For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession.

4- For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.

And what about the authority over us as Muslims.

So let's interpret it in light of the Quran shall we.

"Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess divine authority). . . ." (4:59)

See they are being mention right next to Allah and his messenger. Logic dictates it must be a religious leader.

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe; who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Quran 5:55-56)

So yet again our leaders/Masters is Allah, the messenger and those who believe I.e. the ones that establish prayers. And give charity while they bow. But I wonder how will you know who gave charity while he bow. Nonetheless the point is Allah is talking about a religious figure. Dear me how did you conclude all the above points.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.(3:7)

So who are the ones who know the interpretation of the Quran. Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge.

Now let me make this clear to you dear brother. Its not me or you calling someone knowledgeable. Its is Allah who is calling someone 'firmly rooted in knowledge'. It actually means the person is firmly rooted in knowledge. He must know the entire Quran and its actual interpretation, the place where each and every verse was revealed, the reason the verse was revealed. Do tell me is that also mentioned in the Quran.

Now prophet(s) is firmly rooted in knowledge. And the rest INFALLIBLE imams. They are our leaders(god given authority) and our guardians.

Since I have made my position clear on this let's move on.

Quranists are not always literalists :) I believe that some Quranic verses do have esoteric meanings to them and others are 100% clear. The ones that say that the Quran is the ONLY source of law and has details of everything cannot be rationally interpreted any other way. The Quran is all we need, nothing else.

If anything contradicts a Quranic verse, dump it.

We don't need to know the events of the prophet and even if hadiths provide that, it doesn't authorize them as another source of law!

How to pray? It is simple! It is much different than the sunni/shia methods of prayer, but don't act like the Quran didn't explain how Allah wants us to pray.

Well that's so good to know :) so you don't actually go and kill the unbelievers by when the sacred months are over. Phew.

Yes I agree Quran tells us all. Quran = word of Allah.

Quran says follow the messenger.

Hadith = word of messenger.(no wait it is also the word of Allah)

"I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed,"

(53:1-4)

So let me clarify that for you. Allah says Muhammad(s) never speaks out of his desire. But what ever he speaks its no less then a revelation revealed to him. So you are missing out on so much of Allah's indirect word.

Although I noticed you have a problem with sunni hadith collection system. Yes that is not the case with the shias. And we don't use either Muslim or Bukhari. We have a simple rule if it contradicts with the Quran. It goes straight in the dustbin.

You dont need to dawww but i love stories. You say it doesn't make it another source of law. Hmmm. Tell me did the prophet(s) ever go against the Quran? (Never thought I had to defend prophet muhammad(s) against a musli~ oh wait this is a discission between two kafir makes sense) so if the prophet (s) was following the Quran in someway that means that is the law of Allah he (s) used. And if a hadith displays us how prophet(s) interpreted the law is that the right interpretation or the one you might be doing.

Oh right. Tell me prophets(s) understood the Quran better and prayed a certain way. And we strive to follow that. Or you understand it better and pray your own way which might not even fulfill what Allah wants from you. And tell me is your way of praying more beloved to Allah or the prophets(s).

You do know we consider our 12 imams (as)to be infallible and above all prophets in rank and knowledge besides prophet Muhammad (s). Please do some research on shias it might help.

Oh oh oh and do you sit and drink water. Prophet said so. And scientifically its proved to be good. With other dozens of things from the hadith. Like doing sajdah on earth discharges all charges in your brain etc etc.

herenow477 · May 30, 2014

Hello brother,

If you follow the prophet then you follow the Quran which means you follow Allah. That is because the prophet was given the Quran and told to judge by it and nothing else.

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

From the above Qur’anic evidence it is clearly established that obedience to the messenger is not obedience to his personal orders but to the divine laws that have been revealed on him, and that Allah and his messenger are not two separate obedience but it is a term which stands for one single source of divine law and obedience.

What was revealed to the messenger. What did the Quran tell us was revealed to the messenger? Did the Quran say there is another source of law besides the Quran that was revealed to the messenger? We both know the answer to that is NO.

Take a look here:

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

Wouldn't this verse be the perfect place to show the other revelation that the prophet allegedly received?

But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

Most surely it is an honored Quran,

In a Book kept hidden

None shall touch it save the purified ones.(the reference to the purified ones being the Ahlul Bayt in verse 33:33)

A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.

Do you then hold this announcement in contempt?

And to give (it) the lie you make your means of subsistence.

The Quran clearly states that the MEANING/TAFSEER/RULES and its secrets of the Quran is only given to the Ahlul Bayt

and that they are its guardians and keepers and commentators and those that explain it, not every joe jerry and blow

also the Quran says again

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you(Muhammad); some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Edited May 30, 2014 by herenow477

**Ethics** · May 30, 2014

I've numbered your points for easy reference. I'm sorry but #3 had to be long because I really had to explain it. Please please read it, don't disregard it. I will promise to keep it short from now on.

(1) No, Quran 3:7 is speaking about the allegorical verses. It clearly states that there are clear verses in it and allegorical ones. The clear ones are the ones that I cite--(The Quran is the only source of law, do not follow anything besides it etc.)

(2) No, you got it all wrong. Let me give an analogy. If a professor tells you, your textbook is complete contains everything and made no exceptions--What are you going to believe? You are going to say that the textbook has everything that is relevant to the course. That does not mean that you can go to another textbook and say that "this other textbook has things relevant to the course that is not in the textbook the professor authorized" The only things that are relevant in the course is everything in the professor's textbook. If any other textbook contains anything else that is not mentioned in the professor's textbook, it is NOT relevant to the course.

So when the Quran says it has details of everything, it means everything relevant to Islam. It will not explain how to bake an apple pie or how to regenerate limbs from stem cells. Just like when a professor says the textbook has everything you need to know--you do not assume that the textbook is going to teach you how to bake an apple pie (which you might need to know), rather, you know that he meant everything you need to know for this course.

Given the above verse, it is logically impossible to say that the Quran is not fully detailed on matters of Islam. It clearly stated that it has details of everything.

(3) The thing is we don't need representatives of Allah. Quran 3:7 says that those of understanding could understand the esoteric meanings of the Quran. That doesn't meant the Quran says that only the prophet and Imams can understand the Quran. Those with knowledge and understanding would understand the Quran.

Allah informs us that His Book has been kept independent of all sorts of traditions for its exegesis, by indicating that the Qur’an is its own commentary.

The Qur'an is not like an ordinary book, such that most other books discuss a specific topic at one place and have their subjects compiled and bifurcated within specific chapters.

Unlike this, the Book of Allah has its topics spread out throughout itself within various chapters. For example, if we were to ascertain as to what Allah's Book says about the topic of divorce we find verses dealing with the subject of divorce in Surah Al-Baqara which is the second Surah (chapter) of the Qur'an, Surah Al Nisa the fourth Chapter , then in Surah Al Ahzaab the thirty third chapter and further in Sura At Tal'aaq which is the sixty fifth chapter of the Qur'an.

By compiling all the verses about the topic of divorce as discussed in all the locations of the Qur'an we come to know what the Book of Allah has to say about this subject. And we observe that each verse clarifies and explains the other. It is by this manner that Allah Himself has dealt with different subjects in His Book, i.e. by repeating topics in various chapters throughout the Qur'an. The manner of exegesis is <Tasreef ul Ayaat> or recurrence and repetition of subjects within the Qur’anic verses, and it is by this method that the Book of Allah deals with various topics and provides its own explanation. We are reminded:

"See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

"And certainly We have repeated for mankind in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but the majority of mankind do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89)

Allah Himself has circulated topics within His Book, and what is unclear at one passage is made distinct by another verse in another passage within the Qur’an itself. One verse will throw light on the other. Furthermore we are informed that the messenger of Allah also explained the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself:

"And thus do We repeat the verses and that they may say: You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know." (6:108)

It is evident from the above that the messenger’s lectures on the Qur’an were based on <tasreef_ul_ayat>, i.e. recurrence of Ayat, to clarify topics within the Qur’an. The messenger gave Dars ul Qur-an, by this manner, and the Qur’an was clarified by the Qur’an itself. This is further supported in Surah Al-Furqan, where a certain objection of the unbelievers is identified:

"The unbelievers say: "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually. And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best explanation." (25:32-33)

The above verses inform us about a matter of grave importance. To the objection of unbelievers as to why is not the Qur’an revealed all at once, it is stated that the Qur’an is revealed in stages due to the following reasons:

1.) So that the messengers heart may be strenghtened. This is confirmed when it is stated: "Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually." Hence the messenger was encouraged and enjoined to be stead fast by the revelation of Qur’anic verses.
2.) So that the arguments that the unbelievers may bring forth should be answered sufficiently by ‘Haqq’, i.e. the Qur’anic truth. As it is stated: "And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth.."
3.) The third reason for the gradual descent of the Qur’an is to provide <Ahsan_ul_Tafsir>, i.e. the best explanation and exegesis of Allah’s Book.

<Wa la_ yatu_naka bimasalin il la_ jina_ka bil haq qi wa ahsana tafsira>

"And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best ‘Tafsir’ (exegesis)" (25:33)

Thus Allah revealed verses which provided Tafsir of other verses themselves. What remained ambigous in one verse, its clarification and exegesis was provided by Allah Himself by the gradual descent of other verses of the Qur’an. Hence Allah provided the Tafsir of the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself, and did not make His Book dependent on any compilations of traditions for its exegesis. It is by this manner that Allah gave the Tafsir of His Book to the messenger and the messenger inturn conveyed to his audience. The messenger did not give any separate book of Tafsir to the Ummah as the Tafsir of the Qur’an which he imparted on the Ummah was contained inside the pages of the Qur’an itself.

While it is identified that the Qur’an explains its self by repetition of verses, we are also instructed to ponder and reflect on Allah’s Book, for the message of the Qur’an will be evident to those who will strive to comprehend its meaning and conduct research on it. It is mentioned that those who will use their faculties of understanding and engage in an inquiry into the meaning of the divine message, for them the Qur’anic verses will be rendered plain:

"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)

"Indeed We have made the verses distinct for a people who will utilize their understanding." (6:98)

Along with stating the above, we are also advocated to ponder and reflect on the Book:

"A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful." (38:29)

Thus the injunction to reflect and ponder over the Book has been given for all generations, so that in the light of divine guidance they seek the solutions to the problems of their times. The meaning of the Qur’an will be made clear by the repetition of verses and likewise people are asked to use their abilities of reason and intellect to understand the Qur’an. The following verses shed further light in stating that the meaning of Allah’s Book will be evident by <Tasreef ul Ayat> and it is in this manner that Qur’an should be understood:

" See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

"See how We repeat the verses, yet they turn away (from the truth rendered by recurrence of Ayat)." (6:46)

Note: the word for 'repeat' is also correctly translated as 'explain'. So if Allah explains the verses in the Quran through the Quran, is there really a need to follow the prophet's explanation of the Quran? All we need to do is read the Quran to understand it! We don't need another revelation to understand it.

It is Allah, who is the ‘Mufasir’ i.e commentator of the Qur’an, and the Tafsir of one verse was provided by the revelation of other verses which would throw light on the subject under discussion. Thus it is said:

"Ar-Rahmaan (The Beneficent God). It is He who teaches the Qur’an." (55:1-2)

Not only was the revelation, compilation and protection of the Book taken up by Allah himself, but also its explanation. As we are informed:

"Do not move your tongue with this (Qur'an) to make haste with it. Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it. Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation. Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it." (75:16-19)

Here Allah relieves the prophet from explaining the Quran and says the duty is on Allah.

Hence it is Allah who provides the Tafsir of His Book by <Tasreef ul Ayat>, that is, by repetition of verses.

So I think this puts the theory that we need Imams to explain the Quran down. Imams are not infallible and they are not God. This whole thing you are arguing makes an idol out of the Imams. The Quran is clear that we only need the Quran and nothing else.

(4) the problem with these types of sources is that the science themselves have many flaws and not only that it is not authorized in the Quran. The Quran has details of everything. If Allah wanted us to follow Hadiths, Imams, he would have said that the Quran does not have details of everything and refer you to the teachings of the prophet and Imams!!! Certainly, Allah is not short of words!

1) First of all, rationally speaking, saying you know which are decisive and which are allegorical is absurd. How do you know? For the quran does not say which verses are which. To claim such a thing is irrational for I can always claim the opposite. It is when you have divine authority that establishes which is which. Again, Allah's knowledge cannot be compared to anyone or everyone, unless it is Allah whom shares His knowledge. If you were to say it does, well, you will contradict the notion of an absolute being. Therefore, rationally, it is established, those vested with knowledge are ones whom Allah has specifically chosen. Therefore, again it is deduced there must be another divine source. Thus, the knowledge in that verse is not pertaining to anyone who thinks they are knowledgeable, for any Tom, Johnny, and Micheal can make such a claim.

2) Your analogy is flawed. First of all you cannot compare a fallible book to a infallible book. Second, we are talking about a religion, a way of life. What is life? Life is everything, faith included. All practices that are part of life fall under religion as well. I never said it must include information such as cooking. No, but it must contain all practices regarding this divine religion. It CANNOT be ambiguous. The quran is an ambiguous book, therefore it cannot be the sole source for our faith. It cannot be that it claims not to drink intoxicants but leaves out whether it is okay or not to do so while taking medicine or how much of it. Or it says to pray, but not say how to pray. It contradicts your claim and makes it void. The second you bring your own interpretation into the discussion you have lost authority and your argument. For you are not clearly a representative of God and it goes against verse 3:7. It is quite ironic, for you are claiming to discuss this rationally but you are saying since the quran claims it contains every single detail it must be true. But, I have proved you wrong and brought forth 2 examples. You are also using a fallacious argument.

3) If we did not need representatives of Allah, especially when the Quran was decreed. Why was there a messenger in the first place? Why place countless representatives? It is absurd to say we dont need them, when Allah the All Knowing has decreed it. Also, your point pertaining to verse 3:7, I have already logically established it is not talking about anyone with "knowledge". I will leave with you, at the end of my post, with countless verses from the quran itself establishing the role ship of the prophet is just as important as the mastership of Allah. What is also ironic, is the quran itself talks more about prophets and imams then the quran. With all due respect, most of your points you have brought forth in point three have been out of context or free of proof. Also it tends to go off topic. It is funny you had to bring so many out of context verses to try and prove the quran is explained soley by the quran itself. If that was the case why couldnt you just bring one verse that says exactly that? Also Interesting how you are taking verses and doing exactly what Allah has commanded in the quran not to do, making your own interpretations.

6:65 ironically Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to tell the meccans: "Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We repeat the communications that they may understand." If it were the case that the communications were so easy to understand, why the need to use Muhammad A.S? Better yet, why is the context of the verse in a way where it is established Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to speak when the quran as according to you is enough.

17:89 Do you know why this verse was revealed upon Muhammad A.S and commanded by Muhammad A.S to say such a thing to the meccans? They did not believe the quran was God sent. Therefore, this verse is in regards to those whom reject the quran fully. Looking at the verses before and after it:

[shakir 17:88] Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.

[shakir 17:89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

[shakir 17:90] And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.

For verse 25:32 you include that the verse is addressing the prophet. You are clearly wrong. It is only addressing the disbelievers. :

[shakir 25:32] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging.

Also you tried using 25:33 to prove the quran contains its own tafsir when it is far from the case. Read the verse again my friend:

[shakir 25:33] And they shall not bring to you any argument, but We have brought to you (one) with truth and best in significance.

It is still addressing the disbelievers from verse 25:32. You have destroyed your own argument, for this verse is talking about disproving the argument used by disbelievers, which in response Allah endowed to Muhammad A.S, the knowledge to destroy such an argument. Interestingly again, it is shown Allah's knowledge is hand in hand with Muhammad's A.S

Now I will present you with some verses. Place close attention to the position of Allah and Muhammad A.S . If the quran is the sole source we need, why the need for Allah to reveal such commands? It is illogical. Clearly, it is the fact that it must be hand in hand with the quran. Also, if the quran is the only source of law, and nothing comes from the prophet, why such verses? Because, Muhammad's laws is Allah's laws and those that are supported by the holy quran. Also why the need to distinguish the obedience to Allah and the messenger? It goes against your notion that Muhammad had no role in giving laws. Also if the prophet was only there as a person to bring the quran, why the command to follow him when they can just follow only the quran?

[shakir 59:3] And had it not been that Allah had decreed for them the exile, He would certainly have punished them in this world, and m the hereafter they shall have chastisement of the fire.

[shakir 59:4] That is because they acted in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, and whoever acts in opposition to Allah, then surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil).

[shakir 59:7] Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and do not burn your deeds (by disobeying him).”(Qur’an 47:33)

"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah.”(Qur’an 4:80)

"(O prophet) tell (people) If you really love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.”(Qur’an 3:31)

Also, clearly the representatives of God are infallible:

By the Star when it sets, (Qur’an 53:1)

Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived (Qur’an 53:2)

Nor does he speak out of his desire; (Qur’an 53:3)

It is no less than a revelation that is revealed. (Qur’an 53:4)

The Mighty in Power has taught him. (Qur’an 53:5)

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character).”(Qur’an 68:4)

Why the need to rehearse if the quran is self explainatory?

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light.”(Qur’an 65:11)

As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Qur’an 2:151)

Allah did bestow a great favor unto the believers when He sent among them an Messenger from among themselves reciting unto them the Signs of Allah sanctifying them and teaching them the Scripture and Wisdom while before that they had been in manifest error. (Qur’an 3:164)

If everything is in the Holy Quran, why the need for this verse? Why must we go to the Prophet and those vested with authority and not the quran itself?

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. 4:59'

Look at how many verses are with " Obey Allah and His messenger" https://www.google.com/search?q=take+what+ever+the+prophet+gives+you+quran&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=obey+Allah+and+his+messenger+corpus&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&safe=off

This verse is what you call proof in the pudding that destroys the concept of Quran only. It is clear the prophet has been given authority to enjoin and forbid that which is separate from what is in the quran:

[shakir 7:157] Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

4) You had an emotional rant that was not worth responding too. I gave you linked articles with rational responses tackling your claims.

Please keep your posts on point and rational. As you have originally stated. This time I did not mind reading all that, but address each point concisely. If your future posts will be off topic and baseless with no concise evidence, I may not reply back. I will leave it up to the readers to decide.

(wasalam)

herenow477 · May 30, 2014

this person is clearly a sunni trying to convince us to think the sunni ways

Khalilallah · May 30, 2014

Aslamu Alaikum!

I know that many people here disagree with me and before you read, I need you to have an open mind. Nothing in my post is meant to be offensive--it should just be an explanation of Allah's true religion.

I do consider the Sunni, shias and all the other hadith following sects of Islam disbelievers. This is because they are rejecting the Quran and following hadiths. My main point here is to present arguments for Quran-Only Islam and hope to debate with you. I haven't had much debate experience with shia's--Mostly with sunnis and many sunnis disappoint me in their debates. I see too much rhetoric, too much appeal to popularity/authority fallacies, too much arrogance and misinterpretation of clear Quranic verses. So this is why I am here. I hope that Shia's are more open minded and inviting to Allah's verses.

The quran is simply a collection of messages sent to prophet Mohammed, a lot of its ayats don't even apply to you.

to rely on the quran alone is like relying on the foundations of a wall alone and not building a wall above it.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Sayed Faridoon Taha

mclinkin94 · May 30, 2014

salamun alaykum
if we want to debate about a topic we should stick to the rules of the argument. read the answers carefully, put the prejudice aside, do not think that our idea is the reality, seek the truth even if it was against us.
this is not the first time I have encountered this idea of being a pure quranist, but there are some ambiguous points as regards what you said that seem unanswered.
1. what the other brothers have mentioned pertaining detailed info which have not been explained in Quran, that I think you run away answering them.
2. the quranic verses that refer the Muslim to the traditions, at least the narrations of the prophet. and let's say at the time of the prophet , we Inshallah discuss about the chains of hadith through the ages later on. but for the stepping-stone let's accept that the quran itself, regardless the prophet is not going to benefit us according to the this verse:

وَ أَنْزَلْنا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ‏ لِلنَّاسِ ما نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (44)

وَ ما أَنْزَلْنا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتابَ إِلاَّ لِتُبَيِّنَ‏ لَهُمُ الَّذِي اخْتَلَفُوا فيهِ وَ هُدىً وَ رَحْمَةً لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ (64)

We have sent down the reminder to you so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect.( 44)
We did not send down the Book to you except[ for the purpose ]that you may clarify for them what they differ about, and as a guidance and mercy for a people who have faith.( 64 )

if quran needs clarification, so prophet's traditions are required!

best regards.

To answer your first question: Everything has been explained in the Quran! Please give me one example of how something is not explained. Of course the Quran differs in the methods of prayer than yours. You have something called "raka", in the Quran there is no concept of Raka. ONE prayer is ONE raka. You bow down only once.

For your second question:

These Quranic verses do not authorize a second source of law besides the Quran:

There is NO revelation with the Quran that explains it for people. What there is is the prophet making evident/clear the the people that the Quran was sent down to them and he would preach the Quran through ONLY the Quran. He would not add anything to the book that is fully detailed and the ONLY source of law.

The words in 16:44 clearly state that the messenger can only make things clear to the people by means of what is revealed to him (Quran). This is also confirmed in 6:114 which states that the only source of law is the book. In addition, the messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God. If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God (see 69:44-46).

It must also be said that a common misunderstanding arises when one or two verses are looked at in isolation. Without looking at all the relevant verses dealing with one particular Quranic topic, a misleading deduction can be arrived at.

If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own it may well appear that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran, but what about when we read 55:1-2 which says that God is the teacher of the Quran?

Also, what about 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and tells him clearly that it is He (God) who will explain the Quran?

It is clear that when we read other verses we get a different picture.

As a result, we must arrive at a common meaning which would be in harmony with all the Quranic verses and not just 3:164 and 16:44.

The common meaning is that the messenger delivered the Quran to the people and that he spent all his remaining days preaching the Quran and commanding people to follow it and showing them what the Quran requires them to do. The messenger was literally a walking Quran when it comes to religious questions! If someone asks him how to do wudu, the prophet would recite the Quran and tell them exactly what it says without adding anything to the Quran--since the Quran is the only source of law (6:114 and 45:6).

The prophet explained to the people what the Quran wants them to do. Let me give you an example.

A man goes to the prophet and asks him how to do wudu for Salat, so the prophet would show him that by reading 5:6 to him, so the prophet SHOWED him what the Quran says, this is the meaning of 16:44 .... The prophet did not guide the man, for if the man does not accept the Quran there is nothing the prophet can do, he cannot guide anyone, he can only show them what the Quran tells them to do. All the prophet did was teach the man what the Quran requires him to do.

mclinkin94 · May 30, 2014

1) And what about the authority over us as Muslims.
So let's interpret it in light of the Quran shall we.
"Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess divine authority). . . ." (4:59)
See they are being mention right next to Allah and his messenger. Logic dictates it must be a religious leader.
Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe; who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Quran 5:55-56)
So yet again our leaders/Masters is Allah, the messenger and those who believe I.e. the ones that establish prayers. And give charity while they bow. But I wonder how will you know who gave charity while he bow. Nonetheless the point is Allah is talking about a religious figure. Dear me how did you conclude all the above points.
2) He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.(3:7)
So who are the ones who know the interpretation of the Quran. Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge.
Now let me make this clear to you dear brother. Its not me or you calling someone knowledgeable. Its is Allah who is calling someone 'firmly rooted in knowledge'. It actually means the person is firmly rooted in knowledge. He must know the entire Quran and its actual interpretation, the place where each and every verse was revealed, the reason the verse was revealed. Do tell me is that also mentioned in the Quran.
Now prophet(s) is firmly rooted in knowledge. And the rest INFALLIBLE imams. They are our leaders(god given authority) and our guardians.
Since I have made my position clear on this let's move on.
Well that's so good to know :) so you don't actually go and kill the unbelievers by when the sacred months are over. Phew.
3) Yes I agree Quran tells us all. Quran = word of Allah.
Quran says follow the messenger.
Hadith = word of messenger.(no wait it is also the word of Allah)
4.) "I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed,"
(53:1-4)
So let me clarify that for you. Allah says Muhammad(s) never speaks out of his desire. But what ever he speaks its no less then a revelation revealed to him. So you are missing out on so much of Allah's indirect word.
Although I noticed you have a problem with sunni hadith collection system. Yes that is not the case with the shias. And we don't use either Muslim or Bukhari. We have a simple rule if it contradicts with the Quran. It goes straight in the dustbin.
5.) You dont need to dawww but i love stories. You say it doesn't make it another source of law. Hmmm. Tell me did the prophet(s) ever go against the Quran? (Never thought I had to defend prophet muhammad(s) against a musli~ oh wait this is a discission between two kafir makes sense) so if the prophet (s) was following the Quran in someway that means that is the law of Allah he (s) used. And if a hadith displays us how prophet(s) interpreted the law is that the right interpretation or the one you might be doing.
Oh right. Tell me prophets(s) understood the Quran better and prayed a certain way. And we strive to follow that. Or you understand it better and pray your own way which might not even fulfill what Allah wants from you. And tell me is your way of praying more beloved to Allah or the prophets(s).
You do know we consider our 12 imams (as)to be infallible and above all prophets in rank and knowledge besides prophet Muhammad (s). Please do some research on shias it might help.
Oh oh oh and do you sit and drink water. Prophet said so. And scientifically its proved to be good. With other dozens of things from the hadith. Like doing sajdah on earth discharges all charges in your brain etc etc.

Hello brother. I have numbered your posts in bold and I will respond with them with the same numbers in my post:

1.) Your linguistic interpretation of Quran 5:55-56 is wrong. The word is not "master", the word means "guardian" or "ally". So Allah and the prophet and the believers are our allies, not our masters. If the believers of Islam are our masters, then I must be your master and I must tell you that you must leave your haditsh :P. It's not like that brother!

Quran 5:55 Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

Secondly, logic does not dictate that your leaders and therefore religious leaders just because they are put next to Allah and his messenger! That verse is telling you everyone who you should obey. That is obviously Allah, the messenger and whoever Allah put as authorities over you in the Quran!

It can be easily demonstrated with the aid of the Quran that the authority God speaks of in 4:59 does NOT cover the men of religion (e.g. Imam's, guru's .. etc). The religious figures (e.g. Imams, gurus, ... etc) have NO AUTHORITY over the believers.

First, the Quran stresses the fact that it is forbidden to follow any law other than the law of God, that being the Law of the Quran:

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114

Second, the Quran makes it very clear in numerous ayat that there is no compulsion in religion:

"There is no compulsion in religion." 2:256

What this means is that the sole duty of the Imam or religious figure is to preach God's way and God's laws, but never to force the people or be entitled to blind obedience.

The prophet himself was warned very clearly by God that he is to deliver the message and then if the people do not accept it or follow it, that he should leave them alone and that he has no authority over them.

"Had God willed, they would not have committed Shirk. We did not appoint you as a guardian over them, nor are you a trustee over them." 6:107

If the prophet himslef was given no authority over the people in religious matters, it would make no sense for any religious guru to claim this right for himself!

As usual, the corrupt Imams have corrupted the meaning of this ayat 4:59 and specifically the words "those in charge". They have manipulated the meaning so as to claim for themselves blind obedience from the believers.

A final word must be included here regarding the status of religious "fatwa's". From all the above it goes without saying that all types of religious "fatwa's" (religious decrees) issued by religious figures and which are claimed to be of full binding legality, and regarded by their issuers to be on par with scriptural religious laws, are in fact unlawful and unrighteous. Any man-made religious "fatwa" is in violation of God's exclusive right as the Only Law Maker.

2.) Quran 3:7 states that the only ones who could understand the ALLEGORICAL verses of the Quran are those firmly rooted in knowledge. I am firmly rooted in knowledge, so was the prophet. The imams are not infallible--please stop with this idolatry. If they were infallible, then they should NEVER disagree with each other as to what the interpretation of the Quran is--but they DO. If that is the case, then they are not infallible.

Now notice that Quran 3:7 states that only the allegorical verses are harder to undestand. There are distinct and clear verses (the foundation of the Quran) that are not allegorical that can be understood by anyone that reads them. Notice how the verses I post on how the Quran is the ONLY source of law and fully detailed is NOT an allegorical verse.

3.) Yup. The QUran says follow the messenger, and the messenger's SOLE duty is to deliver the Quran. If that is the case, then we are to follow the Quran!

The Quran DOES order us to obey the messenger--I have never denied that. The Quran did not authorize another source of law besides it. Are you suggesting that Allah is contradicting himself when he says that the Quran is the only source of law/fully detailed and then says that the messenger has more details than the Quran?

The short rebuttal; To obey the messenger means to obey the message. The message is the Quran. If we obey the messenger, we obey the Quran thus we obey Allah.

The long rebuttal: There is no indication that you are to follow the Sunnah, because the prophet's sole duty is to give the message and the Quran has informed us that the message is in THIS BOOK (Quran) and that this message is complete.

The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.

Prophet Muhammad is a chosen man who was of fine character and he was given the duty of delivering the Quran, he did that successfully.

So lets study some verses about the sole duty of prophet Muhammad according to the quran.

Sura 5:99

The SOLE DUTY of the messenger is to deliver the message and God knows everything you declare and everything you conceal

Sura 72:23

I only deliver God's words and messages.

Sura 5:67

O you messenger, deliver what is revealed to you from your Lord - until you do, you have not delivered His message.

Sura 5:92

And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the SOLE DUTY of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message).

Sura 64:12

And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the SOLE DUTY of the clear delivery (of the message).

(sorry for the all caps, but I needed to put it there for emphasis:)

YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, UNLESS YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. IF YOU FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER

The whole point of these verses, is Allah reminding you that if you don't follow the messager, you are not following the message. The messenger gives the message and you follow the messenger.

The messenger did NOT add anything to Allah's message as is made clear by Allah's message.

The hadiths cannot be the word of the messenger as the messenger was not authorized in the Quran to make additions to Allah's laws. They are all fabrications. And to say that you follow only hadiths that agree with the Quran. This is a GOOD thing (much better than the sunni cult), but you must realize that hadiths that say anything more than the Quran are not to be believed:

Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [besides this],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

The messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God (Quran). If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God. The hadiths are allegedly the messenger's own teachings besides (Quran). This means that the prophet's alleged sunnah should therefore be rejected.

It is important to read the above verse in context. If the prophet made about Allah some sayings--BESIDES THE QURAN, he would be seized by Allah. This is what the context of this verse states.

4.) For QUran 53:1-3

The Quran should be interpreted using other verses in the Quran. So if this is the case then Quran 53:4 should be interpreted using other verses. Okay, let's do that.

whats their take on Surat Al Najeem (The Star):

Some Quranists would say what he speaks in 53:3 is the same truth spoken in 51:23. It is important to remember that Quranists try their best to take a holistic approach to the Quran and not attempt to understand a verse in isolation. If you read 51:23 and then read onwards to its conclusion, you see that the Messenger was commanded to warn the people (51:55). The warning is what he was speaking. And we know from 6:19 that he was commanded to warn with the Quran.

Also, the next verse 53:4 says that what he speaks is nothing but wahy - revelation. And wahy is defined in 6:19 as the Quran.

If Allah has given the prophet more revelations (wahy), the he certainly would have stated that in Quran 6:19 as that is the perfect place to put this second revelation the prophet received for mankind :)

In the verse the particular "Nataq-un-Nabi" (Speech of Nabi) is identified as <In huwa il la_ wahyu yu_ha> "It is naught but revelation that is revealed.", Now what is this "wahi" that is sent to him? Does this include everything he utters? The evidence from the Qur’an brought to light above says to the contrary, and identifies that Nabi (S.A.W) was given only the Qur’an as revelation. Then what does this "wahi" refer to? Allah Himself clarifies this matter in Surah Ash-Shoora:

"And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, <auhaina_ ilaika qur a_nan arabiy yan> that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire." (42:7)

So if the speech of the prophet is the revelation from Allah which was defined as the Quran, then the prophet only speaks the Quran

5.) Prophet Muhammad himself is fallible and DID make mistakes! Are you saying the imams are infallible, that they are better than the prophet. My argument remains, if all these imams are infallible, they wouldn't disagree with each other on the interpretation of the Quran :dry:

There are many cases in the Quran where the prophet made many mistakes:

If every word uttered by Muhammad was divine inspiration how can Muhammad have shortcomings as 34:50 states?

"Say, "If I go astray, I go astray because of my own shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near" 34:50

To further assert this important issue, God has deliberately informed us in the Quran about six different incidents where the prophet was at fault and where God reprimands the prophet for these mistakes. We read God's reprimand to the prophet in each of these six occasions. Clearly, if everything uttered by the prophet was inspired he would not have been at fault in any of these occasions. Surely, God would not inspire to the prophet errors!

We must also understand that God does not include these six cases of reprimand for the sake of belittling His own prophet, but God includes these incidents in the Quran so that the reader of the Quran would be asserted that Muhammad was a human being like all of us and that he is thus prone to make mistakes like all of us. Sadly, the ones who are intent on idolising Muhammad and making an infallible god-like figure out of him cannot see the wisdom of these incidents! They continue to disregard clear Quranic truth! They continue to say that every word uttered by the prophet was divine inspiration!

Conclusion: If the prophet has shortcomings, he is not infallible. If the prophet (God's own messenger) is fallible, then the imams must be fallible.

mclinkin94 · May 30, 2014

(1) But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
Most surely it is an honored Quran,
In a Book kept hidden
None shall touch it save the purified ones.(the reference to the purified ones being the Ahlul Bayt in verse 33:33)
A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.
Do you then hold this announcement in contempt?
And to give (it) the lie you make your means of subsistence.
The Quran clearly states that the MEANING/TAFSEER/RULES and its secrets of the Quran is only given to the Ahlul Bayt
and that they are its guardians and keepers and commentators and those that explain it, not every joe jerry and blow
(2) also the Quran says again
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you(Muhammad); some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Hello brother, I have numbered your responses and I will respond to each below.

(1) First of all, in the first verse you mentioned, it said none with touch it except the purified ones--Not none will understand it except the purified ones. Secondly, the Quran doesn't say that the ahl-ul-bayt are the guardians..Where are you getting this from? Quran 33:33 has nothing to do with this discussion.

(2) Quran 3:7 states that those who have knowledge can interpret the ALLEGORICAL verses. Those without knowledge cannot interpret the allegorical verses but can interpret the clear/distinct verses. The verses that I mention here are clear and distinct and not allegorical. Secondly, I am a person of knowledge :)--this doesn't refer to the Imams

mclinkin94 · May 30, 2014

this person is clearly a sunni trying to convince us to think the sunni ways

I hope you are not talking about me. I would find it insulting to be called a sunni.

It is a shameful sect. I don't believe in any hadiths other than the Quran as I was commanded to:

Quran 45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what HADITH other than Allah and His verses will they believe?

**iraqi_shia** · May 30, 2014

Obeying the prophet means obeying the message. The Quran informs us the message is the Quran.

So lets imagine the Prophet SAW is right here, and he says, "This meat (the meat of a unicorn), is halal".

Now, if you heard this and someone asks you about the meat of the unicorn, what are you going to say?

Edited May 30, 2014 by iraqi_shia

mclinkin94 · May 30, 2014

1) First of all, rationally speaking, saying you know which are decisive and which are allegorical is absurd. How do you know? For the quran does not say which verses are which. To claim such a thing is irrational for I can always claim the opposite. It is when you have divine authority that establishes which is which. Again, Allah's knowledge cannot be compared to anyone or everyone, unless it is Allah whom shares His knowledge. If you were to say it does, well, you will contradict the notion of an absolute being. Therefore, rationally, it is established, those vested with knowledge are ones whom Allah has specifically chosen. Therefore, again it is deduced there must be another divine source. Thus, the knowledge in that verse is not pertaining to anyone who thinks they are knowledgeable, for any Tom, Johnny, and Micheal can make such a claim.

2) Your analogy is flawed. First of all you cannot compare a fallible book to a infallible book. Second, we are talking about a religion, a way of life. What is life? Life is everything, faith included. All practices that are part of life fall under religion as well. I never said it must include information such as cooking. No, but it must contain all practices regarding this divine religion. It CANNOT be ambiguous. The quran is an ambiguous book, therefore it cannot be the sole source for our faith. It cannot be that it claims not to drink intoxicants but leaves out whether it is okay or not to do so while taking medicine or how much of it. Or it says to pray, but not say how to pray. It contradicts your claim and makes it void. The second you bring your own interpretation into the discussion you have lost authority and your argument. For you are not clearly a representative of God and it goes against verse 3:7. It is quite ironic, for you are claiming to discuss this rationally but you are saying since the quran claims it contains every single detail it must be true. But, I have proved you wrong and brought forth 2 examples. You are also using a fallacious argument.

3) If we did not need representatives of Allah, especially when the Quran was decreed. Why was there a messenger in the first place? Why place countless representatives? It is absurd to say we dont need them, when Allah the All Knowing has decreed it. Also, your point pertaining to verse 3:7, I have already logically established it is not talking about anyone with "knowledge". I will leave with you, at the end of my post, with countless verses from the quran itself establishing the role ship of the prophet is just as important as the mastership of Allah. What is also ironic, is the quran itself talks more about prophets and imams then the quran. With all due respect, most of your points you have brought forth in point three have been out of context or free of proof. Also it tends to go off topic. It is funny you had to bring so many out of context verses to try and prove the quran is explained soley by the quran itself. If that was the case why couldnt you just bring one verse that says exactly that? Also Interesting how you are taking verses and doing exactly what Allah has commanded in the quran not to do, making your own interpretations.

6:65 ironically Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to tell the meccans: "Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We repeat the communications that they may understand." If it were the case that the communications were so easy to understand, why the need to use Muhammad A.S? Better yet, why is the context of the verse in a way where it is established Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to speak when the quran as according to you is enough.

17:89 Do you know why this verse was revealed upon Muhammad A.S and commanded by Muhammad A.S to say such a thing to the meccans? They did not believe the quran was God sent. Therefore, this verse is in regards to those whom reject the quran fully. Looking at the verses before and after it:

[shakir 17:88] Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.
[shakir 17:89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.
[shakir 17:90] And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.

For verse 25:32 you include that the verse is addressing the prophet. You are clearly wrong. It is only addressing the disbelievers. :

[shakir 25:32] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging.

Also you tried using 25:33 to prove the quran contains its own tafsir when it is far from the case. Read the verse again my friend:

[shakir 25:33] And they shall not bring to you any argument, but We have brought to you (one) with truth and best in significance.

It is still addressing the disbelievers from verse 25:32. You have destroyed your own argument, for this verse is talking about disproving the argument used by disbelievers, which in response Allah endowed to Muhammad A.S, the knowledge to destroy such an argument. Interestingly again, it is shown Allah's knowledge is hand in hand with Muhammad's A.S

Now I will present you with some verses. Place close attention to the position of Allah and Muhammad A.S . If the quran is the sole source we need, why the need for Allah to reveal such commands? It is illogical. Clearly, it is the fact that it must be hand in hand with the quran. Also, if the quran is the only source of law, and nothing comes from the prophet, why such verses? Because, Muhammad's laws is Allah's laws and those that are supported by the holy quran. Also why the need to distinguish the obedience to Allah and the messenger? It goes against your notion that Muhammad had no role in giving laws. Also if the prophet was only there as a person to bring the quran, why the command to follow him when they can just follow only the quran?

[shakir 59:3] And had it not been that Allah had decreed for them the exile, He would certainly have punished them in this world, and m the hereafter they shall have chastisement of the fire.
[shakir 59:4] That is because they acted in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, and whoever acts in opposition to Allah, then surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil).
[shakir 59:7] Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and do not burn your deeds (by disobeying him).”(Qur’an 47:33)
"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah.”(Qur’an 4:80)
"(O prophet) tell (people) If you really love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.”(Qur’an 3:31)

Also, clearly the representatives of God are infallible:

By the Star when it sets, (Qur’an 53:1)
Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived (Qur’an 53:2)
Nor does he speak out of his desire; (Qur’an 53:3)
It is no less than a revelation that is revealed. (Qur’an 53:4)
The Mighty in Power has taught him. (Qur’an 53:5)
"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character).”(Qur’an 68:4)

Why the need to rehearse if the quran is self explainatory?

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light.”(Qur’an 65:11)
As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Qur’an 2:151)
Allah did bestow a great favor unto the believers when He sent among them an Messenger from among themselves reciting unto them the Signs of Allah sanctifying them and teaching them the Scripture and Wisdom while before that they had been in manifest error. (Qur’an 3:164)

If everything is in the Holy Quran, why the need for this verse? Why must we go to the Prophet and those vested with authority and not the quran itself?

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. 4:59'

Look at how many verses are with " Obey Allah and His messenger" https://www.google.com/search?q=take+what+ever+the+prophet+gives+you+quran&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=obey+Allah+and+his+messenger+corpus&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&safe=off

This verse is what you call proof in the pudding that destroys the concept of Quran only. It is clear the prophet has been given authority to enjoin and forbid that which is separate from what is in the quran:

[shakir 7:157] Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

4) You had an emotional rant that was not worth responding too. I gave you linked articles with rational responses tackling your claims.

Please keep your posts on point and rational. As you have originally stated. This time I did not mind reading all that, but address each point concisely. If your future posts will be off topic and baseless with no concise evidence, I may not reply back. I will leave it up to the readers to decide.

(wasalam)

Thank you for numbering your arguments, It makes it easier for the both of us to follow along! And thank you for debating with me (that is to everyone!).

1.) The decisive verses are the clear ones--they are the foundation of the book as Quran 3:7 states. What I find really disturbing is that you are assuming that QUran 3:7 is saying "those with understanding" as meaning the religious gurus of imams! NOT TRUE! The Quran could have simply said that, but rather it said that those of understanding could interpret it. I am of understanding--I have studied the Quran extensively.

You state here that this verse must be talking about those chosen by Allah to have understanding. And I agree. I am chosen by Allah to have understanding of the Quran.

I don't like how you are attempting to say that my interpretations are invalid because I am not an 'infallible' Imam. Show me a Quranic verse that shows that the Imams are infallible and to be followed. The Quran was not meant to be interpreted by religious Gurus, it was meant to be interpreted by US!

"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)

"Indeed We have made the verses distinct for a people who will utilize their understanding." (6:98)

Along with stating the above, we are also advocated to ponder and reflect on the Book:

"A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful." (38:29)

Thus the injunction to reflect and ponder over the Book has been given for all generations, so that in the light of divine guidance they seek the solutions to the problems of their times.

Notice how these verses ask US to ponder over the Quran and not to listen to religious Gurus. That means that Quran 3:7's "people of understanding" refers to nothing more than "people of understanding". Not Imams or gurus.

2.) I'm glad we agree that when the QUran says it has details of everything, it does not mean it has details such as how to cook, stem cell usefulness etc etc. So we do agree here. The only place where I disagree is when you say the Quran doesn't have all the details. Are you suggesting a contradiction in the Quran when it states that it has ALL the details and is fully detailed??

If you say so, please show me one place in the Quran where the Quran is not detailed in a certain practice. I argue that the Quran is completely detailed in everything relevant to religion. Just give me one example of how it is not and we will discuss.

You gave one here: "It cannot be that it claims not to drink intoxicants but leaves out whether it is okay or not to do so while taking medicine or how much of it.".

NO intoxicant. There is no how much or to take in certain times. NONE. This is the rule of Allah. You do not take any intoxicants.

The Quran leaves room for common sense. For example: The Quran says to wash your hands before prayer. But what do you do if you don't have hands?? Well duh, it doesn't apply to you.

The Quran shows how to pray!!!!! I'm not going to discuss this unless we have to.

3.) We did need representatives of Allah for the Quran! I never argued against that. We need someone to deliver the Quran. What I said is that we don't need a tafsir of every verse of the Quran as Allah explains the Quran by the verses that I had stated.

By the way, my verses are not irrelevant, they were meant to show that we only need Allah to explain the Quran. You haven't argued against my verses

You said:

6:65 ironically Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to tell the meccans: "Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We repeat the communications that they may understand." If it were the case that the communications were so easy to understand, why the need to use Muhammad A.S? Better yet, why is the context of the verse in a way where it is established Allah is commanding Muhammad A.S to speak when the quran as according to you is enough.

We need the prophet to explain the Quran to the people and to preach the Quran to the people. I am NOT saying that the prophet was useless. I am saying that we do not need another source of law besides the Quran! The prophet did nothing but preach the Quran and explain it. He was literally a walking Quran. He did NOT make up any other rules/laws besides the Quran. the QUran is the ONLY source of law.

Here is an example: A man walks up to the prophet and asks him how to do wudu. The prophet refers him to the Quran and shows him how.

The Quran is enough as a source of law. But the Quran cannot be delivered by itself. The Quran is information, and for information to be delivered we need a medium!

You said:

17:89 Do you know why this verse was revealed upon Muhammad A.S and commanded by Muhammad A.S to say such a thing to the meccans? They did not believe the quran was God sent. Therefore, this verse is in regards to those whom reject the quran fully. Looking at the verses before and after it:

[shakir 17:88] Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.

[shakir 17:89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

[shakir 17:90] And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.

Yes, and? I am saying that Allah explained the Quran through the Quran. "And certainly we have explained for men IN THIS QURAN" Go back to my post explaining this.

That was my point. I understand that the context of this verse is about the meccans, but that wasn't my point. My point was Allah explains the Quran.

You said:

For verse 25:32 you include that the verse is addressing the prophet. You are clearly wrong. It is only addressing the disbelievers. :

[shakir 25:32] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging.

Also you tried using 25:33 to prove the quran contains its own tafsir when it is far from the case. Read the verse again my friend:

[shakir 25:33] And they shall not bring to you any argument, but We have brought to you (one) with truth and best in significance.

It is still addressing the disbelievers from verse 25:32. You have destroyed your own argument, for this verse is talking about disproving the argument used by disbelievers, which in response Allah endowed to Muhammad A.S, the knowledge to destroy such an argument. Interestingly again, it is shown Allah's knowledge is hand in hand with Muhammad's A.S

I colored red underlined the word "you" in Quran 25:33. This does not refer to the disbelievers. The word "they" refers to the disbelievers!

Allah's knowledge is not in hand in hand with Muhammad. Rather, Allah teaches Muhammad.

Let me make it more clear:

Quran 25:32 And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly.

The word "your" refers to the prophet. In 25:33, you notice that the dissemblers are referred to as "they" and the prophet as "you".

i do hope you go back and read the initial point of me posting this verse. i hope this doesn't allow you to forget my initial argument.

Now I will present you with some verses. Place close attention to the position of Allah and Muhammad A.S . If the quran is the sole source we need, why the need for Allah to reveal such commands? It is illogical. Clearly, it is the fact that it must be hand in hand with the quran. Also, if the quran is the only source of law, and nothing comes from the prophet, why such verses? Because, Muhammad's laws is Allah's laws and those that are supported by the holy quran. Also why the need to distinguish the obedience to Allah and the messenger? It goes against your notion that Muhammad had no role in giving laws. Also if the prophet was only there as a person to bring the quran, why the command to follow him when they can just follow only the quran?

It is logically impossible to give information to humans without a medium. Information is information. The only way I can tell you this information is by posting in this thread. The only way for Allah to give us information is through a medium. that medium is the prophet Muhammad.

No LAW comes from the prophet. I did NOT say nothing comes from the prophet.

You stated that "if the prophet was there to only bring the Quran, why the command to follow him when you can follow only the Quran?"

Because Allah made it clear that you CANNOT follow the Quran unless you follow the prophet. The prophet's laws are based entirely off of the Quran! If you don't follow them, you don't follow the Quran.

The whole point of these verses is to show the prophet only preaches Allah's message (Quran).

You then posted verses on the obey the messenger--I have discussed this in recent posts. Can you please refer to them. I don't want to make this post repetitive and long unnecessarily!

As far as Quran 53:1-5 go, I have also discussed this in VERY recent posts. Can you please refer to them! I will summarize this very quickly here:

We are told in the Quran that the messenger of God is infallible in the message he delivers but that he is fallible in his own personal words:

"Say, "If I go astray, I go astray because of my own shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near" 34:50

The message in this Quranic verse is clear: The messenger is infallible only in the inspiration he receives from God, and he is fallible in his own personal views/sayings. The inspiration the messenger recived from God is defined in 53:1-5 as "wahy" or "revelation". Quran 6:19 tells us that this revelation is the QURAN. The prophet is infallible only in the inspiration he gets from God and that is because GOD is infallible and therefore his inspiration is infallible.

Why the need to rehearse if the quran is self explainatory?

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light.”(Qur’an 65:11)

As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Qur’an 2:151)

Allah did bestow a great favor unto the believers when He sent among them an Messenger from among themselves reciting unto them the Signs of Allah sanctifying them and teaching them the Scripture and Wisdom while before that they had been in manifest error. (Qur’an 3:164)

Notice how the first verse you posted is saying that the verses of Allah have clear explanations :P It is like I don't have to defeat your arguments, they just defeat themselves.

Any way, I have stated that you cannot give information to anyone unless you use something. Allah used the prophet to deliver that information.

By reciting the scripture, the prophet is teaching people about it. When they ask the prophet about laws, the prophet refers them to the Quran and teaches them what they should do.

If everything is in the Holy Quran, why the need for this verse? Why must we go to the Prophet and those vested with authority and not the quran itself?

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. 4:59'

I have again responded very recently in previous posts. Please refer there :)

Those in authority among you are NOT imams. And if we quarrel about anything, that means that there is something we don't agree on. So we refer to Allah, we ask Allah about it and we refer to the messenger! The messenger would then refer you to the Quran and explain to you what it states as the messenger is the authority.

**Ethics** · May 31, 2014

Thank you for numbering your arguments, It makes it easier for the both of us to follow along! And thank you for debating with me (that is to everyone!).

1.) The decisive verses are the clear ones--they are the foundation of the book as Quran 3:7 states. What I find really disturbing is that you are assuming that QUran 3:7 is saying "those with understanding" as meaning the religious gurus of imams! NOT TRUE! The Quran could have simply said that, but rather it said that those of understanding could interpret it. I am of understanding--I have studied the Quran extensively.
You state here that this verse must be talking about those chosen by Allah to have understanding. And I agree. I am chosen by Allah to have understanding of the Quran.

I don't like how you are attempting to say that my interpretations are invalid because I am not an 'infallible' Imam. Show me a Quranic verse that shows that the Imams are infallible and to be followed. The Quran was not meant to be interpreted by religious Gurus, it was meant to be interpreted by US!

"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)

"Indeed We have made the verses distinct for a people who will utilize their understanding." (6:98)

Along with stating the above, we are also advocated to ponder and reflect on the Book:

"A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful." (38:29)

Thus the injunction to reflect and ponder over the Book has been given for all generations, so that in the light of divine guidance they seek the solutions to the problems of their times.

Notice how these verses ask US to ponder over the Quran and not to listen to religious Gurus. That means that Quran 3:7's "people of understanding" refers to nothing more than "people of understanding". Not Imams or gurus.

2.) I'm glad we agree that when the QUran says it has details of everything, it does not mean it has details such as how to cook, stem cell usefulness etc etc. So we do agree here. The only place where I disagree is when you say the Quran doesn't have all the details. Are you suggesting a contradiction in the Quran when it states that it has ALL the details and is fully detailed??

If you say so, please show me one place in the Quran where the Quran is not detailed in a certain practice. I argue that the Quran is completely detailed in everything relevant to religion. Just give me one example of how it is not and we will discuss.

You gave one here: "It cannot be that it claims not to drink intoxicants but leaves out whether it is okay or not to do so while taking medicine or how much of it.".

NO intoxicant. There is no how much or to take in certain times. NONE. This is the rule of Allah. You do not take any intoxicants.

The Quran leaves room for common sense. For example: The Quran says to wash your hands before prayer. But what do you do if you don't have hands?? Well duh, it doesn't apply to you.

The Quran shows how to pray!!!!! I'm not going to discuss this unless we have to.

3.) We did need representatives of Allah for the Quran! I never argued against that. We need someone to deliver the Quran. What I said is that we don't need a tafsir of every verse of the Quran as Allah explains the Quran by the verses that I had stated.

By the way, my verses are not irrelevant, they were meant to show that we only need Allah to explain the Quran. You haven't argued against my verses

You said:

We need the prophet to explain the Quran to the people and to preach the Quran to the people. I am NOT saying that the prophet was useless. I am saying that we do not need another source of law besides the Quran! The prophet did nothing but preach the Quran and explain it. He was literally a walking Quran. He did NOT make up any other rules/laws besides the Quran. the QUran is the ONLY source of law.

Here is an example: A man walks up to the prophet and asks him how to do wudu. The prophet refers him to the Quran and shows him how.

The Quran is enough as a source of law. But the Quran cannot be delivered by itself. The Quran is information, and for information to be delivered we need a medium!

You said:

17:89 Do you know why this verse was revealed upon Muhammad A.S and commanded by Muhammad A.S to say such a thing to the meccans? They did not believe the quran was God sent. Therefore, this verse is in regards to those whom reject the quran fully. Looking at the verses before and after it:

[shakir 17:88] Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.
[shakir 17:89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.
[shakir 17:90] And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.

Yes, and? I am saying that Allah explained the Quran through the Quran. "And certainly we have explained for men IN THIS QURAN" Go back to my post explaining this.

That was my point. I understand that the context of this verse is about the meccans, but that wasn't my point. My point was Allah explains the Quran.

You said:

I colored red underlined the word "you" in Quran 25:33. This does not refer to the disbelievers. The word "they" refers to the disbelievers!

Allah's knowledge is not in hand in hand with Muhammad. Rather, Allah teaches Muhammad.

Let me make it more clear:

Quran 25:32 And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly.

The word "your" refers to the prophet. In 25:33, you notice that the dissemblers are referred to as "they" and the prophet as "you".

i do hope you go back and read the initial point of me posting this verse. i hope this doesn't allow you to forget my initial argument.

Now I will present you with some verses. Place close attention to the position of Allah and Muhammad A.S . If the quran is the sole source we need, why the need for Allah to reveal such commands? It is illogical. Clearly, it is the fact that it must be hand in hand with the quran. Also, if the quran is the only source of law, and nothing comes from the prophet, why such verses? Because, Muhammad's laws is Allah's laws and those that are supported by the holy quran. Also why the need to distinguish the obedience to Allah and the messenger? It goes against your notion that Muhammad had no role in giving laws. Also if the prophet was only there as a person to bring the quran, why the command to follow him when they can just follow only the quran?

It is logically impossible to give information to humans without a medium. Information is information. The only way I can tell you this information is by posting in this thread. The only way for Allah to give us information is through a medium. that medium is the prophet Muhammad.
No LAW comes from the prophet. I did NOT say nothing comes from the prophet.

You stated that "if the prophet was there to only bring the Quran, why the command to follow him when you can follow only the Quran?"

Because Allah made it clear that you CANNOT follow the Quran unless you follow the prophet. The prophet's laws are based entirely off of the Quran! If you don't follow them, you don't follow the Quran.

The whole point of these verses is to show the prophet only preaches Allah's message (Quran).

You then posted verses on the obey the messenger--I have discussed this in recent posts. Can you please refer to them. I don't want to make this post repetitive and long unnecessarily!

As far as Quran 53:1-5 go, I have also discussed this in VERY recent posts. Can you please refer to them! I will summarize this very quickly here:

We are told in the Quran that the messenger of God is infallible in the message he delivers but that he is fallible in his own personal words:

"Say, "If I go astray, I go astray because of my own shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near" 34:50

The message in this Quranic verse is clear: The messenger is infallible only in the inspiration he receives from God, and he is fallible in his own personal views/sayings. The inspiration the messenger recived from God is defined in 53:1-5 as "wahy" or "revelation". Quran 6:19 tells us that this revelation is the QURAN. The prophet is infallible only in the inspiration he gets from God and that is because GOD is infallible and therefore his inspiration is infallible.

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light.”(Qur’an 65:11)
As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Qur’an 2:151)
Allah did bestow a great favor unto the believers when He sent among them an Messenger from among themselves reciting unto them the Signs of Allah sanctifying them and teaching them the Scripture and Wisdom while before that they had been in manifest error. (Qur’an 3:164)

Notice how the first verse you posted is saying that the verses of Allah have clear explanations :P It is like I don't have to defeat your arguments, they just defeat themselves.

Any way, I have stated that you cannot give information to anyone unless you use something. Allah used the prophet to deliver that information.

By reciting the scripture, the prophet is teaching people about it. When they ask the prophet about laws, the prophet refers them to the Quran and teaches them what they should do.

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. 4:59'

I have again responded very recently in previous posts. Please refer there :)

Those in authority among you are NOT imams. And if we quarrel about anything, that means that there is something we don't agree on. So we refer to Allah, we ask Allah about it and we refer to the messenger! The messenger would then refer you to the Quran and explain to you what it states as the messenger is the authority.

This is probably my last reply for it seems as if my points are passing over your head and to be quite honest, you dont even tackle anything I have said, you just go all over the place with no valid evidence or logical reasoning. I am not satisfied with your understanding. That being said, thank you for our short dialogue. Your way of religion is incomplete and incapable of being perfect in my eyes and has too many loose ends.

1) Again you just claim what you think are decisive. The verses them selves do not mention this. Your claim can be proven wrong, simply by having what you call decisive be understood as allegorical by someone else. Then you are still claiming anyone and everyone that thinks they are knowledgeable can interpret the quran. I have responded to this claim and you have not rationally proven it wrong. Just because you claim you have studied means nothing to me or the argument at hand. Who even are you? A random person on the internet with no God given authority. Even an atheist can claim they have knowledge, so does that mean their way of interpretation is correct just as yours? This is faulty reasoning and is full of contradictions. I am not saying the quran is not understandable, I am saying the quran's TRUE interpretation and understanding can be only known by those whom Allah has vested with the knowledge, for Allah, according to that verse says this. You can ponder and reflect all you want, if your taking the quran by your own fallible whims then you will fall astray, just as the extremists justify killing innocent people since the "quran says so". You keep insulting my imams and scholars as if you have no respect. In a dialogue you should be respectful. As the quran says, speak with eloquence. If anything, the imams and scholars fall under your ideology for they have knowledge and claim to do so, hence they are also people of understanding.

2) It seems as if you have not fully read the quran:

[shakir 6:119] And what reason have you that you should not eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned, and He has already made plain to you what He has forbidden to you-- excepting what you are compelled to; and most surely many would lead (people) astray by their low desires out of ignorance; surely your Lord-- He best knows those who exceed the limits.

As you can see, Allah says, we can eat or drink if we are compelled to do so. What is compelled? There has to be a justification and how is it defined? For there is no such thing in the quran. What happens now, is if I am a fallible layman following the quran by my own whimsical desires, I can justify a reason to, for myself. This is what you call playing with the religion, since there is no border line. Thus, your way of thinking is flawed, and the quran cannot be the only source.

Oh and your claim about using "common sense", it is without a doubt illogical and flawed for common sense differs among man and again you can have a ball game with religion interpreting it how ever you like. Which again breaks that very verse I have quoted above. No, the quran does not explain how to pray, at all. Heck, I can dance around naked, and call it praying, and according to you, this is how I like to interpret it as praying. No, it is far from this case. Clearly, there is a specific method, as the one which descended upon Muhammad A.S for he must have taught the Muslims how to pray. Because he is the chosen being of Allah, he must know the true form of prayer, given he has authority from God which makes it the only truth. It is rational and completely reasonable. If any other way of praying other than Muhammad's A.S is done, it is invalid, why? Well, if the prophet did not do it that way, then Allah did not command such a practice. Also, you say the quran contains everything. Well ,tell me, does the quran say literally, we are allowed to use our common sense? Does it literally say, any form of prayer is valid? Tell me. Actually, I will tell you, it is easier. No.

3) Again, if the only purpose of the prophet was to "deliver" the quran, why so many mastership and leadership verses commanding to follow him and take what he gives and forbid what he forbids. This makes no sense what so ever, you say we need the prophet to preach. What is the point if people have the quran already, there is no need to preach unless, there is an adjunction connecting the prophets commands, which are separate from the quran, but is still supported by it. God can make anything happen. You think he sent so many prophets prior to holy books for nothing? No, they had knowledge and religious practices instituted by Allah, to give to the people. The holy books are supporting proof of it.

It is quite funny, you are giving me an example of a hadith: an oral example of the prophets life, a sunnah, to try and prove to me your point of view. First of all, how do I know its true? Does it say this in the quran? (using your logic) If not, it isnt valid. See how irrational this is. Regardless, you cannot give me an example without a source. I dont know if you made it up or what.

About verse 25:32. It seems as if you do not understand english. God is answering back to the disbelievers not Muhammad A.S. . Another proof of this is that, a prophet has a strong heart already. It would be senseless for Allah to choose a being as a prophet who has doubt. It makes no sense what so ever. Plus, it contradictions the notion of following a religion that has no stability. If a prophet of God has doubts, why bother believing in God. Thus, it nullifies the notion of God itself.

[shakir 25:32] Question from the disbelievers -> And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once?

Reply to the ones whom asked a question -> Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging.

Again, why the need to follow the prophet if the quran is all I need. You dont make any sense. It would be no point in following two of the same things, unless there is a clear distinction that connects the two, sunnah. Also, if, you cannot follow the quran if you dont follow the prophet, well then you just disproved your claim, that the quran is the only thing you need.

Another proof your way of religion is wrong, is when you take verses without context. You are trying to show me the prophet errs by verse 35:40 but you do realize that there are verses that override this verse, which means your interpretation is far from the truth.

By the Star when it sets, (Qur’an 53:1)

Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived (Qur’an 53:2)

Nor does he speak out of his desire; (Qur’an 53:3)

It is no less than a revelation that is revealed. (Qur’an 53:4)

The Mighty in Power has taught him. (Qur’an 53:5)

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character).”(Qur’an 68:4)

Next you say you cannot give information unless you use something, well that something is the quran, and by your logic it should be the only thing. When you go to the library does someone read/give the book for you? No, so why would Allah send a prophet who just repeats whats already in a book? Clearly, because, it isnt his sole purpose and that the prophet itself is a separate combining source to the quran. The prophet teaches and helps you understand this book. Giving the true interpretation of it with other divine practices.

Next you you use circular logic to claim that when the verse commands us to go to the prophet if we disagree about something, it in fact means the quran. Well, if it was already in the quran, why wouldnt the quran just say check the quran? Now, if the quran already has the answer then why would there be a verse commanding us to go to the prophet if we disagree. Makes no rational sense. Clearly, it means there is an answer, only of which the prophet has.

(wasalam) and take care. If you do respond to me, and I do not respond. Do not think you have "won" the argument. I am just done having this dialogue with you since I think you have tried your best and have not really satisfied me at all.

Edited May 31, 2014 by PureEthics

**IloveImamHussain** · May 31, 2014

Leave him alone.

He is just wasting our time.

robbenmessi1010 · May 31, 2014

(bismillah)

Quranism has only existed for not more than 50 years. I can't believe there are even debates on this. There is no true path except that of Muhammad wa Aele Muhammad(PBUH&HF), put that in your brains and stick it in there. ;)

(wasalam)

Lordofgemini · May 31, 2014

Hello brother. I have numbered your posts in bold and I will respond with them with the same numbers in my post:
1.) Your linguistic interpretation of Quran 5:55-56 is wrong. The word is not "master", the word means "guardian" or "ally". So Allah and the prophet and the believers are our allies, not our masters. If the believers of Islam are our masters, then I must be your master and I must tell you that you must leave your haditsh :P. It's not like that brother!
Quran 5:55 Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].
Secondly, logic does not dictate that your leaders and therefore religious leaders just because they are put next to Allah and his messenger! That verse is telling you everyone who you should obey. That is obviously Allah, the messenger and whoever Allah put as authorities over you in the Quran!
It can be easily demonstrated with the aid of the Quran that the authority God speaks of in 4:59 does NOT cover the men of religion (e.g. Imam's, guru's .. etc). The religious figures (e.g. Imams, gurus, ... etc) have NO AUTHORITY over the believers.
First, the Quran stresses the fact that it is forbidden to follow any law other than the law of God, that being the Law of the Quran:
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114
Second, the Quran makes it very clear in numerous ayat that there is no compulsion in religion:
"There is no compulsion in religion." 2:256
What this means is that the sole duty of the Imam or religious figure is to preach God's way and God's laws, but never to force the people or be entitled to blind obedience.
The prophet himself was warned very clearly by God that he is to deliver the message and then if the people do not accept it or follow it, that he should leave them alone and that he has no authority over them.
"Had God willed, they would not have committed Shirk. We did not appoint you as a guardian over them, nor are you a trustee over them." 6:107
If the prophet himslef was given no authority over the people in religious matters, it would make no sense for any religious guru to claim this right for himself!
As usual, the corrupt Imams have corrupted the meaning of this ayat 4:59 and specifically the words "those in charge". They have manipulated the meaning so as to claim for themselves blind obedience from the believers.
A final word must be included here regarding the status of religious "fatwa's". From all the above it goes without saying that all types of religious "fatwa's" (religious decrees) issued by religious figures and which are claimed to be of full binding legality, and regarded by their issuers to be on par with scriptural religious laws, are in fact unlawful and unrighteous. Any man-made religious "fatwa" is in violation of God's exclusive right as the Only Law Maker.
2.) Quran 3:7 states that the only ones who could understand the ALLEGORICAL verses of the Quran are those firmly rooted in knowledge. I am firmly rooted in knowledge, so was the prophet. The imams are not infallible--please stop with this idolatry. If they were infallible, then they should NEVER disagree with each other as to what the interpretation of the Quran is--but they DO. If that is the case, then they are not infallible.
Now notice that Quran 3:7 states that only the allegorical verses are harder to undestand. There are distinct and clear verses (the foundation of the Quran) that are not allegorical that can be understood by anyone that reads them. Notice how the verses I post on how the Quran is the ONLY source of law and fully detailed is NOT an allegorical verse.
3.) Yup. The QUran says follow the messenger, and the messenger's SOLE duty is to deliver the Quran. If that is the case, then we are to follow the Quran!
The Quran DOES order us to obey the messenger--I have never denied that. The Quran did not authorize another source of law besides it. Are you suggesting that Allah is contradicting himself when he says that the Quran is the only source of law/fully detailed and then says that the messenger has more details than the Quran?
The short rebuttal; To obey the messenger means to obey the message. The message is the Quran. If we obey the messenger, we obey the Quran thus we obey Allah.
The long rebuttal: There is no indication that you are to follow the Sunnah, because the prophet's sole duty is to give the message and the Quran has informed us that the message is in THIS BOOK (Quran) and that this message is complete.
The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.
Prophet Muhammad is a chosen man who was of fine character and he was given the duty of delivering the Quran, he did that successfully.
So lets study some verses about the sole duty of prophet Muhammad according to the quran.
Sura 5:99
The SOLE DUTY of the messenger is to deliver the message and God knows everything you declare and everything you conceal
Sura 72:23
I only deliver God's words and messages.
Sura 5:67
O you messenger, deliver what is revealed to you from your Lord - until you do, you have not delivered His message.
Sura 5:92
And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the SOLE DUTY of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message).
Sura 64:12
And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the SOLE DUTY of the clear delivery (of the message).
(sorry for the all caps, but I needed to put it there for emphasis:)
YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, UNLESS YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. IF YOU FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER
The whole point of these verses, is Allah reminding you that if you don't follow the messager, you are not following the message. The messenger gives the message and you follow the messenger.
The messenger did NOT add anything to Allah's message as is made clear by Allah's message.
The hadiths cannot be the word of the messenger as the messenger was not authorized in the Quran to make additions to Allah's laws. They are all fabrications. And to say that you follow only hadiths that agree with the Quran. This is a GOOD thing (much better than the sunni cult), but you must realize that hadiths that say anything more than the Quran are not to be believed:
Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [besides this],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
The messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God (Quran). If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God. The hadiths are allegedly the messenger's own teachings besides (Quran). This means that the prophet's alleged sunnah should therefore be rejected.
It is important to read the above verse in context. If the prophet made about Allah some sayings--BESIDES THE QURAN, he would be seized by Allah. This is what the context of this verse states.
4.) For QUran 53:1-3
The Quran should be interpreted using other verses in the Quran. So if this is the case then Quran 53:4 should be interpreted using other verses. Okay, let's do that.
whats their take on Surat Al Najeem (The Star):
Some Quranists would say what he speaks in 53:3 is the same truth spoken in 51:23. It is important to remember that Quranists try their best to take a holistic approach to the Quran and not attempt to understand a verse in isolation. If you read 51:23 and then read onwards to its conclusion, you see that the Messenger was commanded to warn the people (51:55). The warning is what he was speaking. And we know from 6:19 that he was commanded to warn with the Quran.
Also, the next verse 53:4 says that what he speaks is nothing but wahy - revelation. And wahy is defined in 6:19 as the Quran.
If Allah has given the prophet more revelations (wahy), the he certainly would have stated that in Quran 6:19 as that is the perfect place to put this second revelation the prophet received for mankind :)
In the verse the particular "Nataq-un-Nabi" (Speech of Nabi) is identified as <In huwa il la_ wahyu yu_ha> "It is naught but revelation that is revealed.", Now what is this "wahi" that is sent to him? Does this include everything he utters? The evidence from the Qur’an brought to light above says to the contrary, and identifies that Nabi (S.A.W) was given only the Qur’an as revelation. Then what does this "wahi" refer to? Allah Himself clarifies this matter in Surah Ash-Shoora:
"And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, <auhaina_ ilaika qur a_nan arabiy yan> that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire." (42:7)
So if the speech of the prophet is the revelation from Allah which was defined as the Quran, then the prophet only speaks the Quran
5.) Prophet Muhammad himself is fallible and DID make mistakes! Are you saying the imams are infallible, that they are better than the prophet. My argument remains, if all these imams are infallible, they wouldn't disagree with each other on the interpretation of the Quran :dry:
There are many cases in the Quran where the prophet made many mistakes:
If every word uttered by Muhammad was divine inspiration how can Muhammad have shortcomings as 34:50 states?
"Say, "If I go astray, I go astray because of my own shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near" 34:50
To further assert this important issue, God has deliberately informed us in the Quran about six different incidents where the prophet was at fault and where God reprimands the prophet for these mistakes. We read God's reprimand to the prophet in each of these six occasions. Clearly, if everything uttered by the prophet was inspired he would not have been at fault in any of these occasions. Surely, God would not inspire to the prophet errors!
We must also understand that God does not include these six cases of reprimand for the sake of belittling His own prophet, but God includes these incidents in the Quran so that the reader of the Quran would be asserted that Muhammad was a human being like all of us and that he is thus prone to make mistakes like all of us. Sadly, the ones who are intent on idolising Muhammad and making an infallible god-like figure out of him cannot see the wisdom of these incidents! They continue to disregard clear Quranic truth! They continue to say that every word uttered by the prophet was divine inspiration!
Conclusion: If the prophet has shortcomings, he is not infallible. If the prophet (God's own messenger) is fallible, then the imams must be fallible.

I will be precise because I am a little short on time these days. And since I can see ignorance I will not reply after this. Sorry for being rude but you need a lots of studying to do.

1) So are saying Allah is our friend/aly. Meaning we reached the rank of Hazrat Ibrahim..we are all khaleel Ullah Lol. Astaghfar. (dear brother wali means gaurdain/master/ leader as well as ally) The meaning of Wali as aly doesn't fit here. And I am sorry this cannot be denied by any intelligent mind. So Then our guardian is Allah, the messenger, the the believers( the mustaqeem) who 'establish' prayer. Give charity while they bow. These are the imams.

Well I can't help if you can't think logically. Leaders/guardians that establish prayers are religious leaders.

Law of Allah. Yes is the law shown by the prophet(s) against the law of Allah. Or are they the same?

You do understand that Quran is talking to the disbeliever when saying that prophet is not the guardian over them. He is only a guardian over the Muslims. And also in the verse there is no compulsion in religion. Is also referring to non Muslims.

We Muslims Must obey his every command as it is directly from God.

And let's say a person like you who is fully versed in the Quranic ayats gives a fatwa that this is such and such from the Quran. To me who has little or no knowledge of the Quran or resources to do so. Does that fatwa makes a violation of Gods law. And I should not follow your fatwa?

2. Oh you are firmly rooted in knowledge? Tell me when was the Surah Kausar revealed. Or tell me what was the name of the prophet who came after hazrat Adam (as). And the name of their children. Tell me are we product of incest? No you don't know shiz. You are a kid on a PC that doesn't know the anything. Firmly rooted in knowledge eh. Tell me how diamonds are made. Tell me Why is the norbornyl cation so stable? Tell me about the seven sky's, What are they. Tell me what does 'Alif laam meem' means. Had I asked any of these questions from the prophet(s) or imams (as) they would have answered as seen in the hadith. They have said things which Humans recently discovered just like the Quran. But all those things are no where in the Quran. Don't make a Joke of Allahs verses. And call yourself knowledgeable all you want you have but a drop compared to the oceans of knowledge of the prophet(s).

Sed sed stop interpretating the verses yourself. If you disagree with me, not the imams. I.e. if we disagree with each other we refer back to the Quran and hadith. You and I aren't on the same page. You know why because you have no knowledge of the prophets life or imams life. And you probably didn't read any hadith before coming to debate here. You don't even know someone before you judge them and call them corrupt. Sigh.

3) Are you trying to differentiate the living quran from the book? That you say that prophet is not the source of law? Prophet is the living Quran. He is the source of Law.

STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

By God! You are in the shackles of Satan.

He only delivers Gods words and msg. What does that mean brother. It the hadith is a from of Gods order. And not to be ignored.

His sole duty is to deliver Allah's message/command so whatever he say is a command from Allah.

As for Surah 5:67 you probably have no idea why it was revealed. So I better leave it at that. ...

Then for Surah 5:92

Gods says if the people turn back then prophet is no more a guardian over them but all he has to do now is deliver the message.

Again the same for 64:12 it refers to the unbelievers. How blind can one be. Oh Allah guide us All to the straight path.

Yes he never Added anything. He asked for explanation from hazrat jibraiel (as) who in turn gave more information through Allah. But its not part of Allahs Kalam. So that was said as hadith which itself is not less then a revelation revealed. Why cant you understand this bit.

Did Allah ever seize him by his right hand or cut his aorta. NO!

4) wow now I really doubt if you think.

There is difference between wahi and something to which Allah says it is no less then a wahi. So it is mentioned in 53:4 which itself is the perfect place about the other revelations. Instead of 6:19.

So yet again you confuse prophets speech from Gods speech.

God speech = wahi

Prophets speech = Hadith (no less then a revelation revealed)

both equally imp.

5. "I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed,"

(53:1-4)

And much emphasis on if at surah 34.50.

NEED I SAY MORE. or tell me the Quran contradicts it self. God swears that Prophet (s) never erred or go astray.

Conclusion: you should read Hadith first then ask yourself is this really the word of a normal person.

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