Why Do You Believe Shia Way Of Praying Is Correct?

[saberrider]

Salaam. 

 

Firstly, this topic hasn't been made to prove one sect or another wrong or inferior in any way. 

 

I am a Sunni and follower of the Hanafi sect. My question is to all Shia who believe that their way of praying in salat (namaz) is correct as compared to other sects.. If they do so, please provide your answers with logical reasoning and verified sources. Again, this is not the typical "Sunni vs Shia" debate. I am just asking this for the sake of my knowledge.

 

JazakAllah.

[Ethics]

Joining Prayers and Other Prayer Topics

 

Issues Pertaining to the Practice of the Prayers

 

Why Shias Combine Prayers

 

Why Shias pray with open hands

 

Why saying Amin in Prayer is impermissible

 

Did the Holy Prophet (pbuh) prostrate on the Turbat of Karbalah?

 

What is the philosophy behind prostrating on earth?

 

 

(wasalam)

Edited May 27, 2014 by PureEthics

[Martyrdom]

Simply because the Prophet(s) said pray the way you see me pray and we believe thats how the Prophet(s) prayed.

[A true Sunni]

Salaam. 

 

Firstly, this topic hasn't been made to prove one sect or another wrong or inferior in any way. 

 

I am a Sunni and follower of the Hanafi sect. My question is to all Shia who believe that their way of praying in salat (namaz) is correct as compared to other sects.. If they do so, please provide your answers with logical reasoning and verified sources. Again, this is not the typical "Sunni vs Shia" debate. I am just asking this for the sake of my knowledge.

 

JazakAllah.

 

ASA

 

people have been painting this as a black and white picture for to long. In order to fully understand the issues it is important to go back to the original teachings of the 4 Sunni Imams not their modern manifestations.

 

Shias only allow open hands

Imam Malik in compulsory prayers only allows hands open

Imam Hanbal and Imam Hanfia allow both open and clasped

Imam Shafi only allows clasped .

 

So you can see straight away in the most obvious apparent differences Sunni parctices as taught by the 4 Imams are quite varied

Edited May 27, 2014 by A true Sunni

[Invoker]

Salaam. 

 

Firstly, this topic hasn't been made to prove one sect or another wrong or inferior in any way. 

 

I am a Sunni and follower of the Hanafi sect. My question is to all Shia who believe that their way of praying in salat (namaz) is correct as compared to other sects.. If they do so, please provide your answers with logical reasoning and verified sources. Again, this is not the typical "Sunni vs Shia" debate. I am just asking this for the sake of my knowledge.

 

JazakAllah.

 

 

Its because they take guidance from their four books of hadith & sunnis take guidance from their six books. Its not just the prayers. The entire fiqh is different. Salah, fasting, hajj, interpretation... etc

ASA

Imam Abu Hanifa allows praying with open arms. According to him both clasping hands and open hands are valid

 

 

Not Imam abu hanifa. It was Imam Malik who allowed it.

[A true Sunni]

 

 

 

Not Imam abu hanifa. It was Imam Malik who allowed it.

 

Imam Abu Hanifa also allows praying with open arms. Both are valid according to him reread my post. i edited it because of the potential for confusion. I highlighted Imam Abu Hanifa because the brother is a Hanafi 

Edited May 27, 2014 by A true Sunni

[Invoker]

Imam Abu Hanifa also allows praying with open arms. Both are valid according to him reread my post. i edited it because of the potential for confusion. I highlighted Imam Abu Hanifa because the brother is a Hanafi 

 

 

Can u provide me with an authentic reference?

[A true Sunni]

Can u provide me with an authentic reference?

 

You need to go ask authentic Hanafi scholars. I rarely keep references. Funnily enough if you search hard enough most stuff has been uploaded onto google. The main issue that you might find is that most Sunni scholars have been 'wahhabified' and dont know whats in the original teachings.

 

Now that you have highlighted it I will start to keep references . Problem is what I regard as 'common knowledge' turns out not to be as common as I thought.

 

If you read Sahih Bukhari & Muslim you will see that in the authentic traditions both hand clasping and hands at side have been discussed. (again i do not keep references). I always find if a person is genuinely interested he will find what he looking for

Edited May 28, 2014 by A true Sunni

[Abbas.]

^ bro this is important, and not so common knowledge, so if you do find a solid reference do post it. Thanks. Topic followed. 

[A true Sunni]

^ bro this is important, and not so common knowledge, so if you do find a solid reference do post it. Thanks. Topic followed. 

 

I am sorry but as I said I dont keep references because I read for my own knowledge and satisfaction not for the purpose of debate. Best thing is if you go back to original teachings and references of the Sunni Imams this will be quite illuminating.

 

Most people only read the modern derivations of the teachings rather then the original teachings. Sorry I cant be of more use but it will probably take me as long as you to find this info

[Lordofgemini]

I also went to a sunni talk once the person provided a reference that is allowed to pray with open hands.

So I think it is a win win deal to pray with open hands.

Shia says its not allowed to fold hands.

Imam malik says the same I think for obligatory prayers.

And rest allow it.

Besides shafi.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Lordofgemini

[saberrider]

Simply because the Prophet(s) said pray the way you see me pray and we believe thats how the Prophet(s) prayed.

 

Thank you for replying but you did not even mention a source.

[Bedazzle]

Since you said you want logic reasoning, I will give you logic reasoning

 

First of all, we prostrate on sand, you prostrate on a piece of cloth.

 

Second, you fold your hands while praying to your creator. If you were to meet the president of your country, you will stand in front of him folding your hands? No, he will believe you are rude.

[saberrider]

 

First of all, we prostrate on sand, you prostrate on a piece of cloth.

 

Second, you fold your hands while praying to your creator. If you were to meet the president of your country, you will stand in front of him folding your hands? No, he will believe you are rude.

 

I am sorry, but both of your reasoning has no verifiable source, unlike some of the other posts. 

 

And I think comparing praying to God and meeting a mortal human being who is the president has a world of a difference.

Edited May 30, 2014 by saberrider

[Lordofgemini]

Since you said you want logic reasoning, I will give you logic reasoning

First of all, we prostrate on sand, you prostrate on a piece of cloth.

Second, you fold your hands while praying to your creator. If you were to meet the president of your country, you will stand in front of him folding your hands? No, he will believe you are rude.

Folding hand is not the natural state of a human being. And Islam is a fitri(natural) religion. So we sit and stand in the natural states while in front of our lord. Unlike Sunnis who fold there hands. And sit in a weird way. Which is in no way natural.

Secondly we pray on earth. The charges in our brain discharge when earthed. Thus remove the headaches etc.

Sunnis break their connection from the kiblah before doing salam. We don't.

And sooo many more reasons.

[A true Sunni]

I have a theory that arm folding clasping was bought in by the Abbasides or Ummayads. The centers of power for both the Abbasides and Ummayads were out side Medina.

 

Imam Malik alludes to this when he says that the people of Medina pray with their hands at their sides. However indicating that he was aware of hand clasping in other parts of the Islamic empire.

 

So at a particular point in history there was 2 ways of praying. One method centred on Medina and one somewhere outside Medina. Logic dictates that the Medina method was the correct method since it was closer to the source of the original teaching.

 

Another piece of evidence is the Kharijis. The Kharijis split from the main Muslim body during the time of Hz Ali(as).  They remained fiercely independent and fought against the Ummayads and Abbasides and Hz Ali (as) refusing to recognise their authority.

 

The Kharijis or should I say their modern day descendents the Ibaadis pray with their hands at their sides

 

http://islam.uga.edu/ibadis.html

 

I cannot comment on Imam Shafi or Imam Hanbal but if we look at the Hanafi school of thought we see something very strange.

 

Imam Abu Hanifa was offered the position of Head Qazi of the entire muslim empire by Mamoun the Abbaside Caliph.

Imam Abi Hanifa turned it down and was imprisoned and then poisoned he died in prison.

 

His student Yusuf was offered the position which he accepted. What we think of as Hanafi teachings are actually a set of teachings taught to us by Yusuf and his adherents using Imam Abu Hanifas name. How close these are to the original teachings is difficult to say.

 

Question I would ask is

why did Imam Abu Hanifa turn down the Chief Qazi position ?

What compromises did Imam Abu Hanifa think he would have to make to keep the Caliph happy

What compromises did Yusuf make to keep the Caliph happy

Edited May 30, 2014 by A true Sunni

[saberrider]

 And sit in a weird way. Which is in no way natural.

 

 

"And sit in a weird way"

 

. So, how do we sit in a way that is "weird" ?

[Lordofgemini]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTP_40sIFFZoVxtnI7Uxzh04lSPxLKOymbtNXpqsE34kKR_hGr9VQ

Yes that is wierd. Unlike us we just wait in a natural position by crossing our feet.

http://shia-online.com/shia-online/sala9.jpg

Edited May 31, 2014 by Lordofgemini

[saberrider]

Thank you replying, Lord of Gemini. However, I can't help but feel you are deviating from what i wrote in my first post here when i created the topic. This topic was never about comparing Sunni/Shia differences.

[Lordofgemini]

Yes I know I just wanted to point out why I think it makes more sense.

[neol]

 

What about the refferences made in this lectuer are they correct about putting the hands at side during prayer?

is what ammar nakshawani say correct? or is he wrong?

[IbnSohan]

I have a theory that arm folding clasping was bought in by the Abbasides or Ummayads. The centers of power for both the Abbasides and Ummayads were out side Medina.

 

Imam Malik alludes to this when he says that the people of Medina pray with their hands at their sides. However indicating that he was aware of hand clasping in other parts of the Islamic empire.

 

So at a particular point in history there was 2 ways of praying. One method centred on Medina and one somewhere outside Medina. Logic dictates that the Medina method was the correct method since it was closer to the source of the original teaching.

 

Another piece of evidence is the Kharijis. The Kharijis split from the main Muslim body during the time of Hz Ali(as).  They remained fiercely independent and fought against the Ummayads and Abbasides and Hz Ali (as) refusing to recognise their authority.

 

The Kharijis or should I say their modern day descendents the Ibaadis pray with their hands at their sides

 

http://islam.uga.edu/ibadis.html

 

I cannot comment on Imam Shafi or Imam Hanbal but if we look at the Hanafi school of thought we see something very strange.

 

Imam Abu Hanifa was offered the position of Head Qazi of the entire muslim empire by Mamoun the Abbaside Caliph.

Imam Abi Hanifa turned it down and was imprisoned and then poisoned he died in prison.

 

His student Yusuf was offered the position which he accepted. What we think of as Hanafi teachings are actually a set of teachings taught to us by Yusuf and his adherents using Imam Abu Hanifas name. How close these are to the original teachings is difficult to say.

 

Question I would ask is

why did Imam Abu Hanifa turn down the Chief Qazi position ?

What compromises did Imam Abu Hanifa think he would have to make to keep the Caliph happy

What compromises did Yusuf make to keep the Caliph happy

 

Majority if not all Muslim schools agree that folding hands during prayer is NOT wajib. The controversy arises about wither it is Sunnah or Makrouh etc.

The controversy origin is because of  contradicting reports  but Shia scholars suggest that during Umar time, he saw how the Majous fold their hands as a sign of respect , he liked it and made it Sunnah. 

[A true Sunni]

Majority if not all Muslim schools agree that folding hands during prayer is NOT wajib. The controversy arises about wither it is Sunnah or Makrouh etc.

The controversy origin is because of  contradicting reports  but Shia scholars suggest that during Umar time, he saw how the Majous fold their hands as a sign of respect , he liked it and made it Sunnah. 

 

And yet I have just demonstrated that on the balance of probability Muslims in Medina were still praying with their arms at their sides 100 years after the death of Umar. According to Imam Malike this was all muslims in Medina

 

Conjuring up a myth without references is not really scholarly.

[IbnSohan]

And yet I have just demonstrated that on the balance of probability Muslims in Medina were still praying with their arms at their sides 100 years after the death of Umar. According to Imam Malike this was all muslims in Medina

 

Conjuring up a myth without references is not really scholarly.

There is a hadith in Shia books from Abu Basir from imam Sadiq from Amirul-Mo'minin that he said:

 

لا يجمع المؤمن يديه في صلاته وهو قائم بين يدي الله عزوجل يتشبه بذلك بأهل الكفر}* يعني المجوس}

In this hadith Imam Ali spoke against folding hands during prayer. In another hadith Imam Sadiq said that this bid'ah has been adopted from the Majous. We know well that Imam Ali khilafah was from 35-40 ah. which makes his warning against the bid'ah of folding hands much earlier than your estimate. His speech against it means it was well known and practiced by many, it was well established within the society by then that Imam needed to inform them that this bid'ah is originally a Zoroastrian practice.

Bani Ummayiah reenforced the Sunnah of Umar because that what the masses wanted back then. In a hadith about salat tarawih, Imam Ali sent his son Imam Hasan to people gathering in Mosque to perform mustahab congregational prayer during Ramadhan but the people refused to listen to Imam Hasan and they shouted " Wa Sunnata Umarah" (a call that means that the Sunnah of Umar is being attacked).

[Ali_Hussain]

Yes that is wierd. Unlike us we just wait in a natural position by crossing our feet.

http://shia-online.com/shia-online/sala9.jpg

 

This is wrong, the mustahab way to sit is on the left thigh:

 

Sistani:

 

1112. It is Mustahab to sit on the left thigh during tashahhud, and to place the upper part of the right foot on the sole of the left foot and to say: 'Al-hamdu lillah' or 'Bismillahi wa billahi wal-hamdu lillahi wa khayrul asma'i lillah' before reciting tashahhud. It is also Mustahab to place one's hands on one's thighs, with joined fingers, and to look at one's laps, and to say this after tashahhud and salawat: Wa taqabbal shafa'atahu warfa' darajatahu.

 

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2227/

 

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/09/sitting-in-tawarruk-for-salaah-for-men.html

 

 

(I think I remember reading that it is makruh to sit on your feet)

Edited June 1, 2014 by Ali_Hussain

[Lordofgemini]

Thank you for this but can you get a picture or diagram demonstrating how to sit in. The said position.

[A true Sunni]

There is a hadith in Shia books from Abu Basir from imam Sadiq from Amirul-Mo'minin that he said:

 

لا يجمع المؤمن يديه في صلاته وهو قائم بين يدي الله عزوجل يتشبه بذلك بأهل الكفر}* يعني المجوس}

In this hadith Imam Ali spoke against folding hands during prayer. In another hadith Imam Sadiq said that this bid'ah has been adopted from the Majous. We know well that Imam Ali khilafah was from 35-40 ah. which makes his warning against the bid'ah of folding hands much earlier than your estimate. His speech against it means it was well known and practiced by many, it was well established within the society by then that Imam needed to inform them that this bid'ah is originally a Zoroastrian practice.

Bani Ummayiah reenforced the Sunnah of Umar because that what the masses wanted back then. In a hadith about salat tarawih, Imam Ali sent his son Imam Hasan to people gathering in Mosque to perform mustahab congregational prayer during Ramadhan but the people refused to listen to Imam Hasan and they shouted " Wa Sunnata Umarah" (a call that means that the Sunnah of Umar is being attacked).

 

You will have to provide translation of the posted Arabic and also post references of the quotes about folding hands. This discussion has nothing to do with Tarawih which is not under dispute.