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Jaabir

Iranians Arrested For Their Version Of "happy"

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Seems a little unfair to arrest them. I could understand a talking to, but arresting them? Come on, now.

 

The authorities have full right to arrest them. I am not basing my opinion on if the law in unfair or not, but because it is in Iran's constitution.

 

Any law in any country's constitution provides the authorities with full rights to apprehend or arrest the suspect - even if the law is unfair. So can you please specify what you think is unfair?

 

Article 24 to be specific: http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/government/constitution-3.html

 

Hello,

 

If you notice, the girl in red wears a Neda necklace.  I hope she is safe.

 

All the Best,

David

 

Please... save us the drama.

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Any law in any country's constitution provides the authorities with full rights to apprehend or arrest the suspect - even if the law is unfair. So can you please specify what you think is unfair?

 

The fact that they aren't doing anything that is of any real danger to anyone.

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Thank God the police didn't waste their time doing anything useless like arresting heroin addicts or anything.

 

I think they are one of the leading forces in the world when it comes to that. 

Edited by Al-Khattati

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I think they are one of the leading forces in the world when it comes to that. 

 

That's why Iran still has the highest rate of addicts in the world at a whopping 2 million +, right?

 

I'm just sayin'. There's better things the authorities could be doing with their time.

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That's why Iran still has the highest rate of addicts in the world at a whopping 2 million +, right?

 

I'm just sayin'. There's better things the authorities could be doing with their time.

 

The two million is about usage not specifically addicts, Iran is not good at taking its own statistics. Regardless, Iran is a transit point to the world's leading heroin/opium producer (afghanistan) so it is natural to see a hike like this, esp when alcohol is relatively harder to get. Yet despite this it is one of the leading countries when it comes to the war on drugs.

 

In other news, President Hassan Rouhani made sure that they got released: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/21/iran-president-rouhani-happy-iranians_n_5366163.html

Edited by Al-Khattati

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That's why Iran still has the highest rate of addicts in the world at a whopping 2 million +, right?

 

I'm just sayin'. There's better things the authorities could be doing with their time.

 

You are no one to be "just saying". Unfortunately it's simple minded people who carry this idea of "oh it's no biggie". Little do you understand the wisdom behind preventing such actions. The undertones of western perversion is seen all over it.

 

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You are no one to be "just saying". Unfortunately it's simple minded people who carry this idea of "oh it's no biggie". Little do you understand the wisdom behind preventing such actions. The undertones of western perversion is seen all over it.

 

 

It's called belittling sins

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The two million is about usage not specifically addicts, Iran is not good at taking its own statistics. Regardless, Iran is a transit point to the world's leading heroin/opium producer (afghanistan) so it is natural to see a hike like this, esp when alcohol is relatively harder to get. Yet despite this it is one of the leading countries when it comes to the war on drugs.

 

Makes sense. My apologies for the misleading statistic. But I just feel like sometimes Iranians can blow small things like these young people making a video like they did out of proportion. It's about priorities is what I'm getting at. I don't necessarily support what they did or feel that it is "Islamic," I'm just the type who believes handling such a thing is much more a responsibility of their families or the local community and religious leaders than it is the job of the police force or government institutions, who have much more pressing concerns that are of much greater threat to the country and Islam.

 

 

You are no one to be "just saying". Unfortunately it's simple minded people who carry this idea of "oh it's no biggie". Little do you understand the wisdom behind preventing such actions. The undertones of western perversion is seen all over it.

 

 

If you honestly think that something as trivial as this is of such concern that the police need to get involved, you're just being foolish. We have far bigger concerns on our plate than fretting over simple things that can be easily forgiven and which can be handled without any kind of police intervention. The one problem with us is we don't have our priorities straight. We're so concerned with purifying ourselves and our communities of every tiny little so-called corruption that we fail to focus our efforts on the things that really do have the most efficacy. It'd be like if I threw a fit because someone, either in seriousness or in jest, drew a Nazi Swastika or a racial slur on a park bench, but I ignored the homeless guy sleeping on it because I was so busy griping about kids drawing on the bench.

 

Plus, soft power often works better than hard power, especially when it comes to encouraging proper social etiquette.

 

 

It's called belittling sins

 

It's not belittling sins to treat every sin in proportion to its actual threat. Magnifying sins by treating every sin as equally harmful is just as bad as belittling them. And to fret over every little sin of those around you only distracts you from actually purifying your own soul. 

 

The best policy of government and those in authority is to maintain the civil order, encourage Islamic values and just let everything else fall into its place naturally. Something like this shouldn't even require the police's attention. If it's a problem, just try to marginalize and discourage such behavior, the solution is not always to penalize people with harsh or strict laws. Such things can and often do prove more counter productive. 

 

 

Doesn't every moral catastrophe start off as small and innocent?

 

We shouldn't worry too much about the future, about how, when or whether every minor sin will become a major one. We should treat every sin for what it is, not what it could become. Such fretting does nothing but cause stress and prevent us from actually bettering ourselves as we make mountains out of molehills. Sin is here to stay and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it until the Appointed Time and it's often much more costly to try to rid society of every vice and sin that humans suffer from ourselves with the means at our disposal than it is to focus on preventing the major ones and accepting the minor ones as just what to expect in life in this fallen world. To accept that humans are going to sin and to know what sins are worth the wealth of our most immediate attention is not the same as tolerating sin itself nor does it mean we shouldn't encourage people to abandon all sin. But sin is like a fire for which we have no available means of extinguishing it, so the best policy until the One who has the means arrives is to try to contain it and keep it from getting too big for us to handle, but part of this requires us to allow some things to get burned every now and then. Much like with a dam, the flood gates have to be allowed to open, otherwise you get an even greater catastrophe.

 

Minor sins for which forgiveness is achieved by simply doing a prayer or giving some money to charity and promising to try not to do what you did again, shouldn't be anyone's concern beyond the sinner his or herself and those most immediately affected by them. If they are too public with that disapproved behavior, a slap on the wrist is usually all one needs. Tough love is not always the solution.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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What's the point of public health policy?  Isn't it to prevent things early, to act when things are still small, before they become larger and more widespread?  Isn't that being proactive?  Don't know why this analogy doesnt work in the social sciences. 

 

You are making a judgment call from the start, calling this whatever thing as small and "trivial".  Ok then, sure.  But then what after that?  The next thing, which is an inch worse, becomes small and trivial too.  And its gradual.  The threshold never stays firm.  Once you start sliding on the slope, you will keep sliding.  Once you open the floodgates, water will continue to flow, and you can't stop it.  Desensitization, legitimization, acceptance, then a subculture, then a culture, then the order of the day. 

 

How do you expect authorities and societies to react?  Just let things go, wobble with the bar of acceptance, for a little short term stability?  Just to let a bit of liberal feel-goodness shine through?  We all pick our battles. 

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The fact that they aren't doing anything that is of any real danger to anyone.

 

You didn't understand what I was getting at. Just answer this: What do you find unfair - the law itself or the fact that they were arrested?

 

If you think that the law (as a moral code) is unfair, then that's a whole separate argument. But if you are arguing that the authorities were unfair in arresting these hooligans, then you are being just plain foolish. Anything at all stated in a country's constitution must be followed whether it is a fair or an unfair law. It doesn't matter whether all other countries in the world disagree with you on that law, the citizens of that country must abide by that law whether they like it or not - otherwise the authorities have every right to arrest them. Get it?

 

That's why Iran still has the highest rate of addicts in the world at a whopping 2 million +, right?

 

I'm just sayin'. There's better things the authorities could be doing with their time.

 

Your logic is quite backwards. So if IRI's authorities have better things to do with their time, they should just leave out every single act of disobedience of the law, however minor it may be? By your logic, a grown man stealing a chocolate bar worth 50 cents doesn't deserve to have his hands cut off because it was too minor of a crime and the authorities should only target thieves who steal large amounts of money.

Edited by Jaabir ibn Hayyan

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What's the point of public health policy?  Isn't it to prevent things early, to act when things are still small, before they become larger and more widespread?  Isn't that being proactive?  Don't know why this analogy doesnt work in the social sciences. 

 

For one, the public healthy policy doesn't punish or chastise people for getting sick with small diseases because they're scared of them becoming more widespread and dealing with matters of human biology is different than dealing with matters of the human soul. One concerns the nature of the physical body, which is far more logical, while the other deals something that is by its very nature something quite irrational.

 

 

You are making a judgment call from the start, calling this whatever thing as small and "trivial".  Ok then, sure.  But then what after that?  The next thing, which is an inch worse, becomes small and trivial too.  And its gradual.  The threshold never stays firm.  Once you start sliding on the slope, you will keep sliding.  Once you open the floodgates, water will continue to flow, and you can't stop it.  Desensitization, legitimization, acceptance, then a subculture, then a culture, then the order of the day. 

 

This attitude you have expressed here is probably far more destructive. It does nothing but trap you in a state of constant fear and paranoia as you see in every tiny thing and in the shadows behind every tree a great catastrophe lying in wait. Fretting constantly over the small sins doesn't prevent them, it actually more often than not increases them. When minor sins are equated with the major sins simply because they have the potential to become greater sins themselves rather than being treated as they are, this doesn't help anybody. All it does is fill those who are otherwise good in their civil behavior with excessive remorse and chances are they'll go out and do a major sin simply because they've beaten themselves down so much for committing the minor one that they don't feel like they're "worthy."  Each sin is judged in proportion to its degree.

 

When you have a system set up where the minor sins are tolerated to a certain degree, in the sense that they are seen as bad yet unavoidable due to the nature of the general whole of humanity but the social structure doesn't encourage them, but rather discourages them without magnifying them, then a proper balance is maintained and what you'll find is that people's faith actually grows stronger as instead of being held to rigid standards of perfection that are beyond the capacity of one's nature, people are instead allowed to grow at the pace and in the direction that best suits their own individual nature or their own station at the time. Not only that, but faith grows in the people as they begin to see through the nature of the society, the mercy of God and so they often end up wanting to become better because that not only is God, through the state, merciful to them even in their sinful state of being, but they also recognize the social privilege and benefit that is offered by the state, which also reflects God's rewarding of the righteous. To tolerate certain minor sins is not the same as abandoning virtue.

 

 

How do you expect authorities and societies to react?  Just let things go, wobble with the bar of acceptance, for a little short term stability?  Just to let a bit of liberal feel-goodness shine through?  We all pick our battles. 

 

You completely misunderstand almost everything I've said. As I said, it's not about abandoning virtue to allow some kind of liberal ideology take root. It's about understanding the nature of human beings and organizing in such a way where human nature and the world is taken into account. For example, why does Islam have laws about Ahlul Kitab? Why does it permit them protection under the Islamic state? Why not just force them to convert? After all, according to your logic, if we allow such minor disbelief, couldn't it lead to greater disbelief? If we allow some of the Christians to keep their religion, won't it spread and take over? We have to prevent that, don't we? But do we force them recite the shahadah saying "If we allow some disbelief, it will open the gates for greater disbelief?" No, of course not. Islam understands that not everyone will become a Muslim until the Appointed Time and it accepts the nature of humanity as one prone to sin and disbelief. It does however, seek to establish a hierarchy.

 

While the Islamic state permits certain unbelievers to have protection and a healthy amount of social, legal and economic freedom, a social order is in place to ensure that Islam remains dominant and to ensure that Islamic values are more prized over those more exclusively associated with Ahlul Kitab, not because everyone is expected to become Muslim, but to "contain the inextinguishable fire," as I stated earlier. And likewise, in the Islamic social sphere there exists a similar hierarchy that places those who embody the Islamic virtues at the top and those who lack these virtues at the bottom. But in the same way that tawhid cannot be enforced on Ahlul Kitab because there is no compulsion in religion and because, as other wise men have stated before, the nature of tawhid does not permit it to be something that can be enforced, so too is the same thing with virtue. Virtue is not something that can be enforced, but the proper social order to maintain civil order and to encourage and extol the virtuous qualities can still be put in place while still accepting the flawed and weak nature of man. And as I explained, this ultimately prevents sin more than doing the greater equivalent of beating the hand of a school kid until wrists bleed for not being able to recite the Qu'ran properly.

 

 

You didn't understand what I was getting at. Just answer this: What do you find unfair - the law itself or the fact that they were arrested?

 

If you think that the law (as a moral code) is unfair, then that's a whole separate argument. But if you are arguing that the authorities were unfair in arresting these hooligans, then you are being just plain foolish. Anything at all stated in a country's constitution must be followed whether it is a fair or an unfair law. It doesn't matter whether all other countries in the world disagree with you on that law, the citizens of that country must abide by that law whether they like it or not - otherwise the authorities have every right to arrest them. Get it?

 

Every crime should be treated according to the degree of disruption or damage it causes, not according to "what it could do," or what people fear it could lead to if left unchecked for too long. To arrest some young people for doing something that was quite harmless in the much greater sense of the word  and which could have been fixed with far less drama, whether what they did was against the constitution or no (and I think the pretense in this particular case is quite flimsy), is nothing more than waste of state time and resources which could be better spent on solving issues that have much more serious effect on everyone like more violent crimes caused by drugs or poverty.

 

 

By your logic, a grown man stealing a chocolate bar worth 50 cents doesn't deserve to have his hands cut off 

 

Uh...DUH? I would think that's just common sense.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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Thank God the police didn't waste their time doing anything useless like arresting heroin addicts or anything.

 

Imagine if you get pulled over by the police for going 67 miles an hour in a 65 zone. And you tell him "Come on officer, aren't there any thugs and pimps you should be arresting right now?" It is a logical fallacy to suggest that there is only ONE issue that the police can address.

 

Secondly, heroin addicts are the scourge of society now?

 

FYI, drug addiction is not treated as a criminal issue in Iran but a medical issue. So, no, you won't be seeing Iranian police arresting any heroin addicts any time soon.

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FYI, drug addiction is not treated as a criminal issue in Iran but a medical issue. So, no, you won't be seeing Iranian police arresting any heroin addicts any time soon.

 

HUH?! That is absurd! No wonder the economy of Iran is shambles! If you don't arrest addicts, and give them decades of time in prison, you can't have a prison industrial complex to prop up your economy. Thankfully the US has a robust economy, thanks to all the addicts who fill up the prisons, and provides jobs to tens of millions of prison guards, and everything else needed to keep the industry up and running. 

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Imagine if you get pulled over by the police for going 67 miles an hour in a 65 zone. And you tell him "Come on officer, aren't there any thugs and pimps you should be arresting right now?" It is a logical fallacy to suggest that there is only ONE issue that the police can address.

 

If the cop is slapping me with a fine in the hundreds for going two miles over the speed limit when I have bills and loans to pay, hell yeah I'm gonna tell him what for. It's one thing to pull me over and say "sir, please slow down or I might have to make you pick up garbage off the freeway." It's another beat me down or drive me into debt for 2 miles over the speed limit because I "could have gone twenty!" 

 

I also think you miss some of the point I'm making. The point isn't that the police only have one issue they can address, the point is that there are things that require a delicate hand and that one should conserve the brunt of their force and energy for those things which have a greater negative effect on the social and civil order. I don't know how young/old the people in this case were, but at the very least, they should have just gotten off with some kind of warning and at the most their mothers should have just pulled their ear and scolded them as they were forced to do some kind of mundane task to make up for it. There is no real reason for the police to get so involved, arrest them, and waste time/resources on something so benign until the President's representatives could intercede on their behalf. This just makes Iranians look ridiculous to the rest of the world and serves the agenda of certain foreigners and Persian diaspora at painting Iran as nothing more than a haven of crazy and unreasonable religious zealots who think a handful of young people behaving foolishly to the theme of Western song is as big of a threat as a comet.

 

I can understand that image is a big concern for Iranians, they don't want anyone, whether it's in the country or outside of it, presenting an image of them to the rest of the world as being something they're not and there's also a (quite rational) fear of the import of certain modern Western customs and values on the back of popular entertainment and disrupting the religious and social well-being of young people,  but if their intention was to rescue the image of their country, they failed miserably (at least until Rohani supposedly stepped in). And I think the reaction was probably much more politically motivated and an attempt to "make an example out of them," because Iran is suffering from other problems with its youth (particularly pre-marital sex and resulting venereal diseases) that it has difficulty dealing with. And so I don't think it's very fair or just because on the one hand, the punishment and amount of attention does not really fit the supposed crime in this individual case and on the other hand Iranian authorities often let young people in Iran get away with far more as long as they aren't actually disturbing the peace. It's not fair to put the weight of that guilt on one group because their behavior just happened to be more publicized and it's not fair to use some flimsy pretense to accuse some rambunctious youth who got a little carried away of helping to destroy the institution of religious values in the country.

 

 

Secondly, heroin addicts are the scourge of society now?

 

FYI, drug addiction is not treated as a criminal issue in Iran but a medical issue. So, no, you won't be seeing Iranian police arresting any heroin addicts any time soon.

 

Drug addicts, especially heroin addicts, tend to commit crimes either because of the influence of the drugs themselves on their behavior or in order to support their addiction, so I stand by statement.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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(salam)

 

I saw the video before I got to this thread. I'll give it a D+ .

 

Now, if I wanted to make a video, I would do something a little more imaginative, like:

 

Announcer:

"From the streets of south Tehran,

Where Ayatollah Khomeini is everyone's favorite liberal,

We present to you, __________, dancing the "Happy Chicken"

 

Then you have brothers and sisters dance in appropriate baggy clothes or chador, with ID boxes over their heads to show who are (natural) brother and sister.

Then do some dance routine on the sidewalk wearing headdresses or something that looks like chickens.  :shifty:

Then when the police come, they all reach into their pockets and throw out chicken feathers...running at an appropriate speed.  :wacko:

 

 

You all get the base idea.

 

 

And you can leave out the sexually-suggestive hand-and-arm signals, too.

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I think Iran and the Rouhani administration handled it perfectly.

 

1) Arrest the idiots to make a point domestically, in order to show that such videos that 1) have men and women interacting socially/dancing together/not wearing hijab (men and women) and 2) propogate the west's narcassistic, immoral (most important one according to the Islamic Republic's constitution and very purpose), and ultimately nihilistic culture in the form of soft power will not be tolerated.

2) Release them (on the condition that they apologize for their actions) so that the situation doesn't escalate any further internationally with that whole #freehappyIranians gaining too much popularity.

3) Tweet out an ambiguous tweet to quell any conversation on how the Iranian goverment oppresses happy people.

 

Situation well-handled, Rouhani.

Edited by YariAzQuran

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You guys are idiots.

 

First of all, there is nothing "western" about happy dancing, even without a hijab. In fact dancing and music was invented in the ancient Middle East LOL. Sufi Muslims also had a tradition of doing this kind of stuff in the Middle Ages. I'm not promoting this but just informing you this has nothing to do with "THE WEST".

 

Iranian weddings in Iran have even more haram dancing than this video all the time. All of you non-Iranians who think Iran is some Islamic utopia where everyone is pious are seriously delusional.

 

It's not like making this harmless video was going to make people apostacize from Islam or rebel. Trust me Iranians see way more suggestive movies and videos all the time. So a PG-rated video of clothed youngsters skipping around won't have any impact on anyone's souls.

 

I usually support Iran but this event was just embarrassing.

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First of all, there is nothing "western" about happy dancing, even without a hijab. In fact dancing and music was invented in the ancient Middle East LOL. Sufi Muslims also had a tradition of doing this kind of stuff in the Middle Ages. I'm not promoting this but just informing you this has nothing to do with "THE WEST".

 

I wouldn't compare the sacred dance of Sufi Orders to to their actions.

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Inshallah any other attempts to bring this hippo poop into Iran will be met with even more strict measures.

" happy by pharrell lyrics"

"Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth"

Happiness is not the truth. It will never be the truth.

The truth is happiness, not other way around.

So many imbeciles on here speaking about things they don't know. Go back to the sandbox kids

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Drug addicts, especially heroin addicts, tend to commit crimes either because of the influence of the drugs themselves on their behavior or in order to support their addiction, so I stand by statement.

 

are ya a member of the prison guards union, by any chance ? Lots a money to be made throwing drug addicts and mentally ill in prisons. Someone needs to educate Rouhani about how to really fix the economy, and truly imitate the western powers he is into appeasing. 

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Inshallah any other attempts to bring this hippo poop into Iran will be met with even more strict measures.

" happy by pharrell lyrics"

"Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth"

Happiness is not the truth. It will never be the truth.

The truth is happiness, not other way around.

So many imbeciles on here speaking about things they don't know. Go back to the sandbox kids

 

Wow cool dude! Cyber Basij forces living in FLORIDA, fighting the enemies of Islam on SHIACHAT. May Allah reward your immense SACRIFICE!! How do you get the courage to anonymously post this stuff online??

 

Oh and you have a picture of Malcolm X! Never seen that before. Do you have a poster of Che Guevara on your wall too?

Edited by ChattingwithShias

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Makes sense. My apologies for the misleading statistic. But I just feel like sometimes Iranians can blow small things like these young people making a video like they did out of proportion. It's about priorities is what I'm getting at. I don't necessarily support what they did or feel that it is "Islamic," I'm just the type who believes handling such a thing is much more a responsibility of their families or the local community and religious leaders than it is the job of the police force or government institutions, who have much more pressing concerns that are of much greater threat to the country and Islam.

 

I think there is a two fold problem here. First, we are dealing with a modern state so any formal modes of arrest and punishment can only legitimately be done by the state which I think is unfortunate and hence why I'm against the modern state. Second, the local communities these individuals stem from have laid the grounds and supported this kind of behavior so really all that's left is the state whose purpose - as an Islamic theocratic reality - is to do nahi 'an al-munkar. It is already occupied with plenty of other important things (drug arrests, murders, rapes, spying etc.) but this does not mean that other crimes, even if considered petty, should go unpunished. The individuals in question were not lashed or hanged, so I don't think the response was disproportional.

Edited by Al-Khattati

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Yeah but there's no Islamic basis for this youtube being officially illegitimate to the point of ARREST. A warning or fine okay. But imprisonment?

 

When I graduated from school me and my mom happily jumped up and down like in the video. That's how harmless this is. It's not like these Iranian kids are twerking.

Edited by ChattingwithShias

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^ This is different. I see Iran's govt point of view here as it could very well be one of those psy op (soft) operations targeting the Iranian youth.

 

I dont know why Iran is not following China's path on the whole issue of social media. Instead of running around after trickles here and there it could very well ban facebook or youtube altogether and instead create its own versions of them. This not only gives the all the control over shape and content  but also keeps foreign plots at bay. China is very relaxed when it comes to facebook or twitter because it has its own version of them.

Edited by Wahdat

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