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AnaAmmar1

Boko Haram Has Nothing To Do With Islam

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But they are Muslims...like the Nusra Front ... like the  ISIS.

like the Talibananas... like Lashkar e Jhangvi....like Lashkar e Taiba...

Dude why are you never positive? Its become a habit of yours to be contrarian whenever and wherever.

 

There are two problems in the muslim world, the reactionary freaks, and those who just moan without even opting for a solution.

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Dude why are you never positive? Its become a habit of yours to be contrarian whenever and wherever.

 

There are two problems in the muslim world, the reactionary freaks, and those who just moan without even opting for a solution.

 

No the real problem in the Muslim world is stupidity  & denial. Now without acting like a freak- arent those groups all Muslims? Denial never solves anything if you are after solution.

Acknowledging a problem is the first step towards solving that problem.

Denying a problem is the first step towards prolonging that problem.

 

Write ^ that down.

Edited by Wahdat

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But they are Muslims...like the Nusra Front ... like the  ISIS.like the Talibananas... like Lashkar e Jhangvi....like Lashkar e Taiba...

They are treated as Muslims in this life, but they are not Muslims. Have you seen the Hadeeths' regarding those who reject the 'Immamah of Ahlul'bayt? You would be surprised :-)

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They are treated as Muslims in this life, but they are not Muslims. Have you seen the Hadeeths' regarding those who reject the 'Immamah of Ahlul'bayt? You would be surprised :-)

 

I am not talking about past or future worlds but this world. Yes, their acts are not according to Islamic teachings but they all are Muslims. A better solution, instead of bringing in hadees or blaming it on US or Israel, would be for Islamic leaders to get together and denounce such barbaric acts. Imagine if Israel had done such a thing... PressTV would have had a christmas with it.

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I am not talking about past or future worlds but this world. Yes, their acts are not according to Islamic teachings but they all are Muslims. A better solution, instead of bringing in hadees or blaming it on US or Israel, would be for Islamic leaders to get together and denounce such barbaric acts. Imagine if Israel had done such a thing... PressTV would have had a christmas with it.

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Salih b. as-Sindi from Ja`far b. Bashir from Abu Salama from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: Whoever recognizes us is a believer, and whoever denies us is a kafir, and whoever does not recognize us and does not deny us is astray.

**

They are only treated as Muslims.

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No the real problem in the Muslim world is stupidity. Now without acting like a freak- arent those groups all Muslims? Denial never solves anything if you are after solution.

And sorry for not being able to be positive when it comes to kidnapping little girls, their forced marriages, beheading or lashing on street corners. Maybe I was not an ostrich in past lives.

Stupidity and reactionary politics are synonymous. Merely acknowledging the mercenaries and tribalists (Pashtuns etc) amongst our ranks isn't going to solve the problem either.

 

And don't be cocky, u know what I meant about never being positive. This cleric clearly acknowledges these freak shows exists and is speaking against them, yet you berate.

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Stupidity and reactionary politics are synonymous. Merely acknowledging the mercenaries and tribalists (Pashtuns etc) amongst our ranks isn't going to solve the problem either.

 

And don't be cocky, u know what I meant about never being positive. This cleric clearly acknowledges these freak shows exists and is speaking against them, yet you berate.

 

Looks like the problem lies in your understanding. I in no  way berated the cleric but merely acknowledged the existence of dark forces within the Islamic community. Believe me denying or blaming the US or Israel will get us no where.

Remember the meeting in France few days ago hosting African leaders on the issue? That was smart and beneficial, not for Nigerian girls, but for France's PR campaign. A smart move in the Islamic world would have been for many organizations getting together and denouncing such acts. It would not have only helped the image of Islam but also would have reduced immensely from legitimacy of Boko Haram. But unfortunately we muslims cant do no wrong...everything is Israel's fault. 

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Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Salih b. as-Sindi from Ja`far b. Bashir from Abu Salama from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: Whoever recognizes us is a believer, and whoever denies us is a kafir, and whoever does not recognize us and does not deny us is astray.

**

They are only treated as Muslims.

That does not apply to the ignorant laymen, regardless if they are Muslim or not. A kaffir(disbeliever) is one who intentionally rejects the truth after knowing it, for example Abu Lahab, Abu Bakr, ect.

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Looks like the problem lies in your understanding. I in no  way berated the cleric but merely acknowledged the existence of dark forces within the Islamic community. Believe me denying or blaming the US or Israel will get us no where.

Remember the meeting in France few days ago hosting African leaders on the issue? That was smart and beneficial, not for Nigerian girls, but for France's PR campaign. A smart move in the Islamic world would have been for many organizations getting together and denouncing such acts. It would not have only helped the image of Islam but also would have reduced immensely from legitimacy of Boko Haram. But unfortunately we muslims cant do no wrong...everything is Israel's fault. 

 

I think aside from a few arabs, muslims have long recognized Israel is hardly the major issue of the ummah; Israel is just a pawn of the forces of neo-colonialism; its no coincidence analysts have described Israel as a western colony.

 

If we're going to deconstruct the visions of these groups, we need a nuanced discussion of the context of their situation and what they authentically claim is their views. Simply 'condemning' isn't going to do anything. The muslim world is currently in a state of crisis from Nigeria all the way to India; what do all these countries have in common?

 

The aftermath of colonialism.

 

Let me explain, after the British retreated from Nigeria they left behind an education system that was uniformly hostile to any worldview that conflicts with the secular worldview; as a result of this many devout muslims in the region have been forced underground to attend sub-standard madrasas that lack any support or sophistication. In this background boko haram was born, representing the masses. Did you know that from 2002-2009 it was a peaceful activist movement? Did you also know that opposition to the secular curriculum led Nigerian forces to massacre many on the street and murder Boko Haram's leader in custody? Did you also know that this is what eventually led to Boko turning into a militant group?

 

Whats even more of a shock is that Boko has been hijacked by criminal gangs and even had its image tarnished by frauds. If you think this is just theory, read up the New York times report of the Nigerian christian who burned up a church and disguised himself as one of Boko Haram's muslims.

 

This is what im saying , the situation behind all these conflicts is very murky, and cant be resolved by a reflexive condemnation. This type of attitude is what harms us, as it gives an aura of muslims being collectively guilty of the actions of a few supposedly done in the name of our religion, when the facts show this is hardly even the case.

Edited by Jahangiram

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That does not apply to the ignorant laymen, regardless if they are Muslim or not. A kaffir(disbeliever) is one who intentionally rejects the truth after knowing it, for example Abu Lahab, Abu Bakr, ect.

I know. However, what about in the afterlife? Are the Muslims or... no?

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I know. However, what about in the afterlife? Are the Muslims or... no?

It depends on their niyyah(intentions). If they strived to find the truth but couldn't do so due to certain circumstances that prevented them from finding it, or even if they did hear about it, but we're not properly educated on it, then Allah will decide their fate based on their intentions. If their intentions were good, then they are granted jannah, otherwise , they will go to hell.

Nevertheless, aside from that, both Sunnis and Shias do agree that all Muslims, regardless of their sect who die on the shahadah will enter paradise eventually, even after serving some time in jahanam if they erred.

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I think aside from a few arabs, muslims have long recognized Israel is hardly the major issue of the ummah; Israel is just a pawn of the forces of neo-colonialism; its no coincidence analysts have described Israel as a western colony.

 

If we're going to deconstruct the visions of these groups, we need a nuanced discussion of the context of their situation and what they authentically claim is their views. Simply 'condemning' isn't going to do anything. The muslim world is currently in a state of crisis from Nigeria all the way to India; what do all these countries have in common?

 

The aftermath of colonialism.

 

Let me explain, after the British retreated from Nigeria they left behind an education system that was uniformly hostile to any worldview that conflicts with the secular worldview; as a result of this many devout muslims in the region have been forced underground to attend sub-standard madrasas that lack any support or sophistication. In this background boko haram was born, representing the masses. Did you know that from 2002-2009 it was a peaceful activist movement? Did you also know that opposition to the secular curriculum led Nigerian forces to massacre many on the street and murder Boko Haram's leader in custody? Did you also know that this is what eventually led to Boko turning into a militant group?

 

Whats even more of a shock is that Boko has been hijacked by criminal gangs and even had its image tarnished by frauds. If you think this is just theory, read up the New York times report of the Nigerian christian who burned up a church and disguised himself as one of Boko Haram's muslims.

 

This is what im saying , the situation behind all these conflicts is very murky, and cant be resolved by a reflexive condemnation. This type of attitude is what harms us, as it gives an aura of muslims being collectively guilty of the actions of a few supposedly done in the name of our religion, when the facts show this is hardly even the case.

 

Colonialists had colonized the whole world- every nation, people, and religion. It was not only a dark era for Muslims but for all. So using colonialism as an excuse or an explanation does no one no good... specially the Muslims.

 

Take a look at India and Pakistan- same people and same language and same circumstances but yet two completely different reactions to colonialsm. One is on its way to become fully independent and living, almost, upto its ideals, while the other one is regressing back to stone ages.

Take a look at Ukraine and Syria- both countries in somewhat state of anarchy. We see how separatists carry themselves in Ukraine and how they behead and slaughter in Syria.  

 

Yes the situation behind each one of those countries are murky including Nigeria but we only see dark and primitive reaction from the Muslim groups. Boko Haram was not the only movement that had its leader killed by security forces. Many other movements in the world have had the same faith. Take a look at Che Guevara for example. 

 

I dont abhor or find their reaction objectionable but the nature of their reaction. Beheading or mass kidnapping of non-Muslims have no place in modern perception and neither does it advance the cause in any way shape or form. They are counter productive.

 

In sum I believe Muslims and the Islamic world need some soul searching to do and let colonialism, Israel, or US on the side for a little while. Such jahalat and stupidity does not need to be outcasted or explained but needs guidance. At the end reality is contextual. What we do determines what is to be. Our disassociation from these groups does not solve anything. Guidance is, I believe, the only way. In this case a join condemnation by all Islamic scholars and not one two or three. Sending missions to those jahils and making them see the counter productive nature of their actions etc.

 

Lastly, when I oppose such issues as child marriage or slavery or stoning is not because I condemn them in the past but in the present. Because such realities lead to realities of Boko Haram or Nusra or Taliban- dark and primitive according to our modern perception. 

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^^ Lol. For your last paragraph, are you saying that the West were more modern than the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w)? Because Islam is modern, because Islam is until the Day of Judgement, and it doesn't change.

You are one of those who are inclined towards what the West believes as "modern".

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^^ Lol. For your last paragraph, are you saying that the West were more modern than the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w)? Because Islam is modern, because Islam is until the Day of Judgement, and it doesn't change.

You are one of those who are inclined towards what the West believes as "modern".

 

Islam was more modern than West and hence it was more powerful than West.

West is more modern than Islam and hence it is more powerful the the Islamic world.

not only powerful but also humane, advanced, innovative, and secure.

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In what ways its modern? I thought you'd never ask.

 

It has functioning healthcare system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has functioning education system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has a secure social system, just like Muslims ahd before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It is innovative in science and technology, just like Muslims were and West wasnt, but Muslims are not today.

It has a trading system, just like Muslims had and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

 

etc etc etc


Most goods used in West came from Islamic world back when Islam was the most modern system in the world. Most goods used in Islamic world comes from West as it has the most modern system in the world.

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Looks like the problem lies in your understanding. I in no  way berated the cleric but merely acknowledged the existence of dark forces within the Islamic community. Believe me denying or blaming the US or Israel will get us no where.

Remember the meeting in France few days ago hosting African leaders on the issue? That was smart and beneficial, not for Nigerian girls, but for France's PR campaign. A smart move in the Islamic world would have been for many organizations getting together and denouncing such acts. It would not have only helped the image of Islam but also would have reduced immensely from legitimacy of Boko Haram. But unfortunately we muslims cant do no wrong...everything is Israel's fault. 

 

Just imagine African leaders gathering in Tehran or Ankara or Cairo or Riyadh for the meeting and there Muslim countries offering to send in their troops to help the government of Nigeria. Wouldn't that be a proactive approach for the otherwise slumbering Ummah? But this is something that never happens. When Malala Yousafzai was hit by Taliban bullets and luckily survived she was flown to the UK for security reasons. Canada and France also offered to host her and some other Western countries which I don't remember the names of. But what I absolutely remember that not a single Muslim country offered her take her. A teenage activist for girls education and speaking against the Talib dogs wasn't good enough to make her a hero in contemporary Muslim mind....These and millions of other examples.

 

I have long said that instead of victimising ourselves to the conspiracies of the powerful foreigners, and instead of still being stuck in the all-my-problems-come-from-colonialism mentality, Muslims need to own up to their problems and do something to solve them. There is not only denial on the government level, which are led by autocrats and dictatorships of all stripes, but the denial runs much deeper and sits at the base of the worldwide Muslim society. Colonialism was worst in Africa and South East Asia. They aren't blowing up themselves are they.

 

When some right wing commentators in the West say that the the roots of Muslim rage lies not just in colonial or neocolonial experience but elsewhere, they are castigated as haters and racists. Wouldn't it do us some good to do some self introspection as a community?

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In what ways its modern? I thought you'd never ask.

 

It has functioning healthcare system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has functioning education system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has a secure social system, just like Muslims ahd before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It is innovative in science and technology, just like Muslims were and West wasnt, but Muslims are not today.

It has a trading system, just like Muslims had and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

 

etc etc etc

Most goods used in West came from Islamic world back when Islam was the most modern system in the world. Most goods used in Islamic world comes from West as it has the most modern system in the world.

This has nothing to do with laws. This is Westerners vs Muslims, not Western Laws vs Islamic Divine Laws.

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Just imagine African leaders gathering in Tehran or Ankara or Cairo or Riyadh for the meeting and there Muslim countries offering to send in their troops to help the government of Nigeria. Wouldn't that be a proactive approach for the otherwise slumbering Ummah? But this is something that never happens. When Malala Yousafzai was hit by Taliban bullets and luckily survived she was flown to the UK for security reasons. Canada and France also offered to host her and some other Western countries which I don't remember the names of. But what I absolutely remember that not a single Muslim country offered her take her. A teenage activist for girls education and speaking against the Talib dogs wasn't good enough to make her a hero in contemporary Muslim mind....These and millions of other examples.

 

I have long said that instead of victimising ourselves to the conspiracies of the powerful foreigners, and instead of still being stuck in the all-my-problems-come-from-colonialism mentality, Muslims need to own up to their problems and do something to solve them. There is not only denial on the government level, which are led by autocrats and dictatorships of all stripes, but the denial runs much deeper and sits at the base of the worldwide Muslim society. Colonialism was worst in Africa and South East Asia. They aren't blowing up themselves are they.

 

When some right wing commentators in the West say that the the roots of Muslim rage lies not just in colonial or neocolonial experience but elsewhere, they are castigated as haters and racists. Wouldn't it do us some good to do some self introspection as a community?

 

Couldnt have said it better. In this world of action we blame our inaction and its consequences on West or Israel or Colonialism. Its the easier path I suppose. We are so mesmerized by the West that we only examine and investigate their actions... nothing we do counts or even examined. 

In Toronto even a school was named after Malala. She was even made to be the role model for girls her age. In Afghanistan she was merely dismissed as a big mouth girl who had what was coming to her. I believe that us Muslims have what has been coming to us due to our double stds, inaction, misinterpretation of Islam and our reality.

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Can you people see the slippery slope on which guys like him put the minds of the Muslims? I bet the apologists of regressive Islamism can't see that.

 

anjem_zpsfd6ba1fe.jpg

 

 

 

 

There have been many actual Scholars who have spoken out against this. I know of one Imam in the US who has personally written to Loco Haram,

 

But yeah, Anjem Choudary... no comment needs to be made.

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There have been many actual Scholars who have spoken out against this. I know of one Imam in the US who has personally written to Loco Haram,

 

But yeah, Anjem Choudary... no comment needs to be made.

 

It's good to know scholars have spoken about it. There's more to be done to actually fight this menace both on social and political levels.

 

Let's forget who Anjem C. is and focus only on his words - check his reasoning by which he explains away the atrocities committed by all militants in the name of Islam.

 

The logic he uses is common amongst all people who wear political religion on their sleeves, common amongst all from Cairo to Tehran and from Riyadh to Kandahar and from Khartoum to Sana'a.

 

Till Muslims as Ummah strike at the heart of this logic, the violent religious expression is not going to go away, I'm afraid.

 

The whole of hitherto colonised world has formulated its response to colonialism and to its modern representations, with varying degrees of success. But we Muslims spend far more time condemning the West and its power than fixing our own faults and thus improving our own capacity to compete.

 

It is not for no reason that conspiracy theories of power enjoy so much currency amongst Muslims!

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From Nigeria to Pakistan and from Afghanistan to Cairo it's the same story everywhere.

 

Recently, all the private schools of Panjgur (Balochistan) received a letter from a previously unheard extremist group called Tanzeem-ul-Islami-ul-Furqan.

 

The letter, addressed to the owners and administrators of all private schools, accuses them of corrupting the minds of young girls by exposing them to a ‘western education’.

 

It goes on to state that ‘all private schools must immediately disallow girls from seeking an education regardless of them being at a co-education or an all-girls facility.’

 

It also includes a message for van and taxi drivers in the area, ‘warning them of dire consequences if they continue to transport girls to schools’.

The note goes onto warn parents as well. It asks them to keep their daughters away from English language centers and schools.

 

Not surprisingly, their threat warns that ‘the mujahedeen of Al-Furqan are ready to brace martyrdom to stop the spread of vulgar, western, education in Balochistan’.

 

To assert their writ and spread fear, the group carried an attack on a school immediately after sending out the letters.

 

http://www.dawn.com/news/1107512/welcome-to-the-war-on-vulgar-western-education-in-balochistan


Take 'Islam' away from them and their violent ideology will cease.

Edited by Marbles

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In Kabul the talibananas attacked the residence of this American school... well almost. They mistook and attacked the neighbour's house. Luckily no foreign staff were killed but unfortunately few passers by lost their lives. As a result the school is now closed till September.

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There have been many actual Scholars who have spoken out against this. I know of one Imam in the US who has personally written to Loco Haram,

 

But yeah, Anjem Choudary... no comment needs to be made.

 

Salam, 

 

I didn't use to think this, but it's getting to the point now where I am starting to believe that all these groups (Boko Haram, ISIS, Qaida, etc) are simply U.S. / British Psyops operations. I was hesitating to put on the tin foil hat, but what else can someone think. I know there are some extremists amoung us muslims but there just aren't enough to have a new group popping up almost every day and each group does more and more extreme acts, These act are reported on universally in the Western Media, but the denouncements of these groups by many mainstream muslim scholars is not.  These Boko thugs are so far off that even Qaida is denouncing them. . That's the part that makes me think these two phenomenon are linked (The lack of carrying of the denouncements of these groups by Western Media and the new group popping up and immediately doing violent, outrageous acts in the name of Islam). 

 

Many scholars in recent years have not bothered to denounce these groups because they see it as pointless.

The denouncement will not be reported by Western Media (where it needs to be reported) and will be reported by Local and Islamic media sources (and almost all these readers/listeners/watchers already know that what these groups are doing has nothing to do with Islam). 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Salam, 

 

I didn't use to think this, but it's getting to the point now where I am starting to believe that all these groups (Boko Haram, ISIS, Qaida, etc) are simply U.S. / British Psyops operations. I was hesitating to put on the tin foil hat, but what else can someone think. I know there are some extremists amoung us muslims but there just aren't enough to have a new group popping up almost every day and each group does more and more extreme acts, These act are reported on universally in the Western Media, but the denouncements of these groups by many mainstream muslim scholars is not.  These Boko thugs are so far off that even Qaida is denouncing them. . That's the part that makes me think these two phenomenon are linked (The lack of carrying of the denouncements of these groups by Western Media and the new group popping up and immediately doing violent, outrageous acts in the name of Islam). 

 

Many scholars in recent years have not bothered to denounce these groups because they see it as pointless.

The denouncement will not be reported by Western Media (where it needs to be reported) and will be reported by Local and Islamic media sources (and almost all these readers/listeners/watchers already know that what these groups are doing has nothing to do with Islam). 

 

Salam,

 

I believe if we can find out the source of the funding of the groups we may have a better idea on what is going on.

 

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Salam, 

 

I didn't use to think this, but it's getting to the point now where I am starting to believe that all these groups (Boko Haram, ISIS, Qaida, etc) are simply U.S. / British Psyops operations. I was hesitating to put on the tin foil hat, but what else can someone think. I know there are some extremists amoung us muslims but there just aren't enough to have a new group popping up almost every day and each group does more and more extreme acts, These act are reported on universally in the Western Media, but the denouncements of these groups by many mainstream muslim scholars is not.  These Boko thugs are so far off that even Qaida is denouncing them. . That's the part that makes me think these two phenomenon are linked (The lack of carrying of the denouncements of these groups by Western Media and the new group popping up and immediately doing violent, outrageous acts in the name of Islam). 

 

We are in so much awe of the Western power that we ascribe them omnipotence and omniscience while at the same denying there is a problem within the body of Islam, with some interpretations of Islam which are bloodthirsty and violent and exactly opposite of what we like to tell the world: that Islam's a religion of peace.

 

To me and you and to peaceful Muslims those groups have nothing to do with Islam but listen to their own words, their own rhetoric and their own worldview: They derive their violent terrorism directly from Islam and it is that very raison detre that drives them to cause murder and mayhem on massive scale. Whether we like their Islam or not, we can't deny it exists.

 

There is no gainsaying that the powers that be have exploited Muslim extremism to further their own ends, and in some cases have actively supported the terrorists to do their bidding. But let's not forget that these people and their ideology exists on the ground and has a strong appeal among the illiterate and semi-literate relatvely poor people drunk on populist religion. You need something to exploit. If there's no 'something', you can't exploit it. What concers me is not whether some foreign power is exploiting those terrorists but what the Muslim society is doing to combat it and fix it? There's little hope when you have millions of Muslims who will find any excuse they can to explain away terrorism and its enduring links with the mullahs.

 

If things changed their nature based on our personal conjectures as opposed to hard facts on the ground then probably I'd have joined you, brother.

 

 

 

Many scholars in recent years have not bothered to denounce these groups because they see it as pointless.

The denouncement will not be reported by Western Media (where it needs to be reported) and will be reported by Local and Islamic media sources (and almost all these readers/listeners/watchers already know that what these groups are doing has nothing to do with Islam).

 

 

There may be a need to tell the other side of the story to the Western audience but things aren't so different in the Muslim countries either. When atrocities such as these are committed, I don't see many scholars, Shia or Sunni, to come out on to the streets to protest and denounce those actions. There is an indifference that doesn't care at all. But just spread a rumour that Islam has been insulted, and without knowing how, when and by whom, the whole city will pour into the streets, Do that anywhere. Islamabad, Tehran, Kabul, Rabat, Cairo anywhere, and the result is the same. So when professing Muslims blow up schoosl and adbuct Christian schoolgirls it is not insult enough, but a satement by some deranged individual sitting in far away land causes the hell to break lose.

 

These are signs of religious myopia the Ummah is suffering from. Apparently the most corrupt countries in the Muslim world are the most socially conservative and 'religious' (hint: Pakistan), where there are always cases going on to punish the 'blasphemers' lol.

Salam,

 

I believe if we can find out the source of the funding of the groups we may have a better idea on what is going on.

 

 

One big funding channel of the Taliban in South Asia (as well as Boko Haram's) is through kidnapping rackets, bank robberies, extortion, drug trade, and the rest comes from wealthy Wahhabi sheikhs who like spooks fund all these terrorist-training madrassahs the world over. In cases where the West has funded them, the examples are: the so called Mujaheddin during the Soviet-Afghan war and recently the Al-Qaidah-linked groups among the Syrian rebels.

Edited by Marbles

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We are in so much awe of the Western power that we ascribe them omnipotence and omniscience while at the same denying there is a problem within the body of Islam, with some interpretations of Islam which are bloodthirsty and violent and exactly opposite of what we like to tell the world: that Islam's a religion of peace.

 

To me and you and to peaceful Muslims those groups have nothing to do with Islam but listen to their own words, their own rhetoric and their own worldview: They derive their violent terrorism directly from Islam and it is that very raison detre that drives them to cause murder and mayhem on massive scale. Whether we like their Islam or not, we can't deny it exists.

 

There is no gainsaying that the powers that be have exploited Muslim extremism to further their own ends, and in some cases have actively supported the terrorists to do their bidding. But let's not forget that these people and their ideology exists on the ground and has a strong appeal among the illiterate and semi-literate relatvely poor people drunk on populist religion. You need something to exploit. If there's no 'something', you can't exploit it. What concers me is not whether some foreign power is exploiting those terrorists but what the Muslim society is doing to combat it and fix it? There's little hope when you have millions of Muslims who will find any excuse they can to explain away terrorism and its enduring links with the mullahs.

 

If things changed their nature based on our personal conjectures as opposed to hard facts on the ground then probably I'd have joined you, brother.

 

 

 

 

There may be a need to tell the other side of the story to the Western audience but things aren't so different in the Muslim countries either. When atrocities such as these are committed, I don't see many scholars, Shia or Sunni, to come out on to the streets to protest and denounce those actions. There is an indifference that doesn't care at all. But just spread a rumour that Islam has been insulted, and without knowing how, when and by whom, the whole city will pour into the streets, Do that anywhere. Islamabad, Tehran, Kabul, Rabat, Cairo anywhere, and the result is the same. So when professing Muslims blow up schoosl and adbuct Christian schoolgirls it is not insult enough, but a satement by some deranged individual sitting in far away land causes the hell to break lose.

 

These are signs of religious myopia the Ummah is suffering from. Apparently the most corrupt countries in the Muslim world are the most socially conservative and 'religious' (hint: Pakistan), where there are always cases going on to punish the 'blasphemers' lol.

 

One big funding channel of the Taliban in South Asia (as well as Boko Haram's) is through kidnapping rackets, bank robberies, extortion, drug trade, and the rest comes from wealthy Wahhabi sheikhs who like spooks fund all these terrorist-training madrassahs the world over. In cases where the West has funded them, the examples are: the so called Mujaheddin during the Soviet-Afghan war and recently the Al-Qaidah-linked groups among the Syrian rebels.

 

Like I said, I hesitate to say this and it is not in my nature to believe in 'vast' conspiracy theories because I know how difficult they are to pull off and people make mistakes and eventually it would be found out. 

 

At the same time, I cannot think of any good alternate explanation for this phenomenon that we are currently experiencing. About protesting, if we went to the streets to protest every group of thugs who call themselves muslims and blow up something or kill a group of innocent people, or do kidnapping , well it is happening so often now that we would not have time for anything else (work, school, family, posting on SC, lol, etc). The 100s of billions of dollars that is spent every year by the U.S. on 'alternate warfare' could buy alot of thugs. 

 

I agree with the brother that we need to do some hardcore research about where all the funding and training these groups are getting is coming from and gather as many facts as we can and publish it as widely as possible. Other than that, I can't think of anything better at the moment. Salam. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Colonialists had colonized the whole world- every nation, people, and religion. It was not only a dark era for Muslims but for all. So using colonialism as an excuse or an explanation does no one no good... specially the Muslims.

 

Take a look at India and Pakistan- same people and same language and same circumstances but yet two completely different reactions to colonialsm. One is on its way to become fully independent and living, almost, upto its ideals, while the other one is regressing back to stone ages.

Take a look at Ukraine and Syria- both countries in somewhat state of anarchy. We see how separatists carry themselves in Ukraine and how they behead and slaughter in Syria.  

 

Yes the situation behind each one of those countries are murky including Nigeria but we only see dark and primitive reaction from the Muslim groups. Boko Haram was not the only movement that had its leader killed by security forces. Many other movements in the world have had the same faith. Take a look at Che Guevara for example. 

 

I dont abhor or find their reaction objectionable but the nature of their reaction. Beheading or mass kidnapping of non-Muslims have no place in modern perception and neither does it advance the cause in any way shape or form. They are counter productive.

 

In sum I believe Muslims and the Islamic world need some soul searching to do and let colonialism, Israel, or US on the side for a little while. Such jahalat and stupidity does not need to be outcasted or explained but needs guidance. At the end reality is contextual. What we do determines what is to be. Our disassociation from these groups does not solve anything. Guidance is, I believe, the only way. In this case a join condemnation by all Islamic scholars and not one two or three. Sending missions to those jahils and making them see the counter productive nature of their actions etc.

 

Lastly, when I oppose such issues as child marriage or slavery or stoning is not because I condemn them in the past but in the present. Because such realities lead to realities of Boko Haram or Nusra or Taliban- dark and primitive according to our modern perception. 

Im not talking about colonialism, im talking about the aftermath, the legacy. In some places militant secularism was the legacy (i.e. under French colonization), in other places it was a complete destruction of the traditional education system in favour of a heavily foreign curriculum (Nigeria, Algeria, India..i could go on).

 

Why I advocate a nuanced discussion on context is so that the actions of some can clearly be explained; I mean who would've known Boko Haram was a peaceful movement until its leader and followers began being massacred? Certainly not Marbles, all that guy is itching for is to portray every military response as a 'problem of Islamic interpretation' even if its defensive lol, trying to mimic tony Blair's rhetoric. If we do not care for context, we'll have these desi pinheads making unsubstantiated comments on every quirky event in the muslim world and somehow relate it to the cesspit they live in.

 

The fact is it is well known and agreed upon in Islamic jurisprudence that it is haram to randomly kidnap and enslave, these are potential attacks on innocents and not enemies of war (where the non-muslim combatant and his family is well recognized). These are muslim girls, the same salafis you despise so much would preach from the depths of their soul about the grave crime of enslaving fellow muslims (take IslamQA for instance). When we realize this uniformity in opinion and the context of the situation, the leeches on this thread will no longer take an opportunistic attack on sincere men of religion.

 

And we can finally move on from these parasites, sympathize with genuine concerns and eventually clamp down on the irrational situation these outcasts have put themselves in.

Edited by Jahangiram

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Like I said, I hesitate to say this and it is not in my nature to believe in 'vast' conspiracy theories because I know how difficult they are to pull off and people make mistakes and eventually it would be found out. 

 

At the same time, I cannot think of any good alternate explanation for this phenomenon that we are currently experiencing. About protesting, if we went to the streets to protest every group of thugs who call themselves muslims and blow up something or kill a group of innocent people, or do kidnapping , well it is happening so often now that we would not have time for anything else (work, school, family, posting on SC, lol, etc). The 100s of billions of dollars that is spent every year by the U.S. on 'alternate warfare' could buy alot of thugs. 

 

I agree with the brother that we need to do some hardcore research about where all the funding and training these groups are getting is coming from and gather as many facts as we can and publish it as widely as possible. Other than that, I can't think of anything better at the moment. Salam. 

 

Protesting against atrocities committed in the name of Islam would be just a fist baby step in the way of admitting that there is a problem. Where is the outrage if it's genuine? nowhere. But where there is outrage, (oh it's a full blown outrage industry), whether merited or not, we see it reflected on the streets and in the social discourse of every Muslim country, despite people having busy lives.

 

The thing is, the worldwide society of Islam is churning out terrorists and suicide bombers in droves and there's no attempt at the social or political or economic levels to stem this tide of hatred and bigotry by those who pose themselves as leaders of Muslims. This is where things need to start to change. Prove to ourselves and then to the world that we as Muslims are outraged at the abduction of schoolgirls in the name of Islam. Yet hardly anyone did that. Again, leak out a rumour that a so and so thing has been said about the Prophet and you'll have a formidable display of what it takes to be a Muslim.

 

In the words of a journalist Zarrar Khuhro, "shout at the top of your voice and accuse a person of being a terrorist, and then again shout hoarse about xyz having committed blasphemy, and see who gets arrested."

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 The 100s of billions of dollars that is spent every year by the U.S. on 'alternate warfare' could buy alot of thugs. 

 

China and Russia are far bigger threats to the US than the dysfunctional and puppet Islamic world where every country is under the American control except for Iran and Syria. Why hasnt the 100s of Billions of dollars of American dollars been unable to produce Chinese or Russian thugs to advance America's cause? And in Islamic world Iran is the biggest threat to the US, how come Americans have been unable to produce Iranian thugs to smear Iran's image?

 

Abu Hadi, have you ever been to any Islamic country for an extended period of time?

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