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In the Name of God بسم الله

Boko Haram Has Nothing To Do With Islam

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If we do not care for context, we'll have these desi pinheads making unsubstantiated comments on every quirky event in the muslim world and somehow relate it to the cesspit they live in.

 

 

Yeah it's a cesspit precisely because of the people and ideology you are trying to explain away in the guise of 'reaction to colonialism'.

 

And may I ask, why is Boko Haram even a movement to begin with, let alone a peaceful one. Which religion, which civilisation other than the limping and defeated post-colonial Islam which has lost its bearing produced movements suh as "Western education is haram" LOL.

 

Again, the first step towards solving a problem is to accept it, and then contextualise it, and then solve it.

 

Sorry folks, if my calling a spade a spade is too much for someone's pampered sense of entitlement but there are no other words to use in this debate.

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the leeches on this thread will no longer take an opportunistic attack on sincere men of religion.

 

Who or what are you talking about? Are you high or something? Who are these sincere men of religion?

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Yeah it's a cesspit precisely because of the people and ideology you are trying to explain away in the guise of 'reaction to colonialism'.

 

And may I ask, why is Boko Haram even a movement to begin with, let alone a peaceful one. Which religion, which civilisation other than the limping and defeated post-colonial Islam which has lost its bearing produced movements suh as "Western education is haram" LOL.

 

Again, the first step towards solving a problem is to accept it, and then contextualise it, and then solve it.

 

Sorry folks, if my calling a spade a spade is too much for someone's pampered sense of entitlement but there are no other words to use in this debate.

Haha yeah ignore the liberal elite and the trash that comes out of lollywood and try make it seem like an austere society, you must be living in a far away dreamworld. The same country that has enslaved itself to foreign debt from America the UK and God knows where else; that same 'ideology' under a certain coup happened to have founded its national space program. This is a recurring theme with your despicable compatriots, ignore the Pashtuns, the jirgas, the tribal freaks, the drones, the trash promoted in the media, just blame it all on some phantom ideology that just wants the best for everyone, liberation from Uncle Tom and tribalism.

Who or what are you talking about? Are you high or something? Who are these sincere men of religion?

our Ayatollahs, qaris..good hearted people everywhere. Im trying to say this whole discourse reeks of collective guilt and its pathetic and should be avoided.

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our Ayatollahs, qaris..good hearted people everywhere. Im trying to say this whole discourse reeks of collective guilt and its pathetic and should be avoided.

 

where did anyone attack 'your' Ayatollahs? who attacked 'your' Ayatollahs?

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where did anyone attack 'your' Ayatollahs? who attacked 'your' Ayatollahs?

Why are you having difficulty understanding? Im speaking about collective guilt indirectly stamped on every religious guy out there (where a qari, ayatollah etc). This discourse says unless every devout muslim's protests are publicized we're all a shame. Its ridiculous. Muslims in Nigeria are protesting more strongly than ever against these boko frauds. If people are quick to label those protesting about cartoons as representative of muslim anger, why cant they do the same regarding these Nigerian muslims?

 

Its all a farce.

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Haha yeah ignore the liberal elite and the trash that comes out of lollywood and try make it seem like an austere society, you must be living in a far away dreamworld. The same country that has enslaved itself to foreign debt from America the UK and God knows where else; that same 'ideology' under a certain coup happened to have founded its national space program. This is a recurring theme with your despicable compatriots, ignore the Pashtuns, the jirgas, the tribal freaks, the drones, the trash promoted in the media, just blame it all on some phantom ideology that just wants the best for everyone, liberation from Uncle Tom and tribalism.

 

Classic tactic, I dare say. Skid around the issue and insert irrelevant talk into the framework. But let me get this straight. Are you telling me that the 'mujahideen of Islam' are blowing up themselves and girls' schools, and Shias and Ahmadis and Hindus because of Lollywood or music concerts, Pashtun jirgas, or US funding of the army??

 

Oh why I'm not surprised you said that. It's a well-used but now worn-out tactic by the apologists of Islamism, and it's nice to see a Shia, a SHIA, apologising for murderous Wahhabi ideology as a legitimate expression of post-colonial dissent.

 

A phantom ideology? Do the news you read come from the dreams of some liberals or real world happenings?

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Classic tactic, I dare say. Skid around the issue and insert irrelevant talk into the framework. But let me get this straight. Are you telling me that the 'mujahideen of Islam' are blowing up themselves and girls' schools, and Shias and Ahmadis and Hindus because of Lollywood or music concerts, Pashtun jirgas, or US funding of the army??

 

Oh why I'm not surprised you said that. It's a well-used but now worn-out tactic by the apologists of Islamism, and it's nice to see a Shia, a SHIA, apologising for murderous Wahhabi ideology as a legitimate expression of post-colonial dissent.

 

A phantom ideology? Do the news you read come from the dreams of some liberals or real world happenings?

Yeah I agree who cares about that last Jirga that recently handed out a verdict of gang rape. Your Pashtun compatriots have also sent a letter to Malala advising her to follow pashtunwali and attend a girl's madrasa. Taliban = the worst excesses of pashtuns

 

No ones being apologetic for any hideous Wahhabi, ill say it again and again; understand the context, understand the genuine concerns from the fraudulent. Only then can you effectively weed out our societies from these pests.

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@Marbles: For the most part I agree, but I also think you are being a tad harsh. For starters, even in Nigeria, vigilante organizations have formed to combat extremists like Boko Haram, but it's very scary when you are dealing with monsters like this who have almost no conscience. If you have scars from surviving one of their attacks, it's just a signal to them that they didn't finish you off well enough the first time. When someone insults the Prophet (pbuh), this is usually something that can unite both moderates and extremists (and even then most of the people you see in the streets probably don't represent the majority, let alone a significant fraction, of the people who usually just stay in their homes). Plus, you have to consider things like national boundaries. While someone in Tunisia or Egypt or Lebanon might hear about Boko Haram and be like "Oh, that's terrible! What disgraces to Islam they are!" most of the people in these countries don't feel like taking time out of their day that they need for work or school to protest and try to fix Nigeria's problems. It's the same thing over here. It's horrible what's happening in Mexico with the drug cartels and gangs, but most Americans don't feel it's necessarily their business to fix Mexico's problems. Mexico should learn to handle it's own issues. It's not our job to nanny them. It's pretty much the same way in the Middle East, plenty of Muslims outside of Nigeria likely see Boko Haram as evil, but they don't feel like it's their business to fix what is Nigeria's problem. Either that or they think there's nothing they can really do anyway except disassociate themselves from such groups and what's happening so that their own image doesn't become tarnished.

 

With regards to the Shi'ite community, I'll be honest and say myself that while I am concerned about anything like Boko Haram causing pain to anyone or spreading, I also tend to think that it's not necessarily OUR business to fix what is clearly much more an internal problem for the Sunni community than it is for us. Nor do I think we should have to go out of our way to explain it to people since we shouldn't even be associated with these people, let alone the Sunni population to any excessive degree. I do feel like some of the source for these issues lies at least in part in with the flaws of certain aspects of the Sunnis' own social and religious structure. Our community is more often the victims of these kinds of groups. And so while a part of me thinks we should go out of our way to prevent these problems for the good of all Muslims, another part of me says in response to it actually happening that we should mostly just be concerned with protecting ourselves and fixing the problems in our own community. Meanwhile, the Sunnis should be forced to clean up their own garbage without it spilling over onto our neck of the woods. If they want our help and we can afford to give it, I say we should, but otherwise it's not much of our business to go out of our way to do anything if they are completely content with the way things are for them, I say. But when these groups begin attacking Shi'ites or using fierce anti-Shi'ite rhetoric, then we should make it our business. At least that's the way i feel about it.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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Yeah I agree who cares about that last Jirga that recently handed out a verdict of gang rape.

 

Whichever jirga you are referring to, produce me exact coordinates and I will bring you dozens reports of your hated "liberal" social orgnanisations condemning it and doing all they could to help the victim, going so far as to offer their law practitioners for any case in the court of law, and helping them rehabilitate.

 

And then once I have shown you this, I will ask you to show me any 3 reports of the same by a so called religious organistoan, political or social, and see if you can come up with something.

 

You are in vacuum, bro. You sit in the comfort of a Western country and there you formulate your opinions in limbo in a world that fluctuates between a need for self-defence and identity crisis. But for Muslims living in the Muslim countries and seeing things first hand, they don't have these identity problems and don't need to go on the defensive to prove they are following a legitimate religion.

And stop hating on Pashtuns, Taliban come from all sorts of ethnic groups. Punjabi, Sindhi, Uzbek all. Pashtuns are majority and they have a tribal problem but don't make it sound as if they are the root of the problem. They are ones who are paying the highest price too, and they are the ones who are in the line of fire so to speak.

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Whichever jirga you are referring to, produce me exact coordinates and I will bring you dozens reports of your hated "liberal" social orgnanisations condemning it and doing all they could to help the victim, going so far as to offer their law practitioners for any case in the court of law, and helping them rehabilitate.

 

And then once I have shown you this, I will ask you to show me any 3 reports of the same by a so called religious organistoan, political or social, and see if you can come up with something.

 

You are in vacuum, bro. You sit in the comfort of a Western country and there you formulate your opinions in limbo in a world that fluctuates between a need for self-defence and identity crisis. But for Muslims living in the Muslim countries and seeing things first hand, they don't have these identity problems and don't need to go on the defensive to prove they are following a legitimate religion.


And stop hating on Pashtuns, Taliban come from all sorts of ethnic groups. Punjabi, Sindhi, Uzbek all. Pashtuns are majority and they have a tribal problem but don't make it sound as if they are the root of the problem. They are ones who are paying the highest price too, and they are the ones who are in the line of fire so to speak.

Well yes Taliban have ethnic minorities that aren't concerned about the wonderful code of pashtunwali, but it just happened to be one of the Taliban's seniors that sent her the letter after she was shot. Face it, its a supremacist organization like the BNP is with its ethnic minority members (and like the token muslims of BJP). Taliban don't even care for global jihad, theyre cultural conservatives who want localist dominance and conservatism (read: oppression).

 

My point about the liberal elite is that their very presence goes against your idea of Pakistan being an ideological country.

 

Jinn has said everything i couldn't.

 

ps, not saying the media doesn't report these crimes, im speaking of disproportionate focus and demonization.

Edited by Jahangiram
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Well yes Taliban have ethnic minorities that aren't concerned about the wonderful code of pashtunwali, but it just happened to be one of the Taliban's seniors that sent her the letter after she was shot. Face it, its a supremacist organization like the BNP is with its ethnic minority members (and like the token muslims of BJP). Taliban don't even care for global jihad, theyre cultural conservatives who want localist dominance and conservatism (read: oppression).

 

Jinn has said everything i couldn't.

 

ps, not saying the media doesn't report these crimes, im speaking of disproportionate focus and demonization.

 

 

Are ISIS, Al-Qaidah, Nusra Front, Noor Party, Boko, IMU, LeJ etc etc comprised of Pashtuns? (Or do you need me to spell them out if the acronyms are unfamiliar to you?) Or how about the sectarian tribalism that's ripping Iraq apart? They are probably descended from Pashtuns eh?

 

Excuses, more excuses and then you create a scapegoat. Great,  mate, great... keep going :rolleyes:

 

Anyway...

 

@ Saintly_Jin23: I'm sorry, yes I'm being a tad harsh, because I'm angry at the collective failure, not just as a Shia but as a Muslim, and I can no more stand the apologists of regressive representations of Islam (be those Shia or Sunni) and the intellectual enablers of hate, bigotry and violence that sit at the heart of Muslim societies worldwide, sometimes in the guise of reaction to colonialism, sometimes in the delusional hope of resurrecting the mythical golden past, and sometimes just in the name of religious and moral supremacy that Muslims as a community suffer from. But anyway, I have made my case and I can see that the thread has degenerated into back-and-forth bickering. But I didn't imagine the whole thing would end up charging "Pasthuns" as one and single, or at least the major factor, of the terrorism that goes on not only in Pakistan or Afghanistan but every other country from Dhaka to Rabat.

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Are ISIS, Al-Qaidah, Nusra Front, Noor Party, Boko, IMU, LeJ etc etc comprised of Pashtuns? (Or do you need me to spell them out if the acronyms are unfamiliar to you?) Or how about the sectarian tribalism that's ripping Iraq apart? They are probably descended from Pashtuns eh?

 

Excuses, more excuses and then you create a scapegoat. Great,  mate, great... keep going :rolleyes:

 

 

Its called war, vacuum of power, poverty and the promise of huge paychecks. Its not a coincidence the suicidal sectarianism in Iraq flourished after the Iraq invasion after centuries of ottoman rule (and the brief british sojourn).. Iran has a substantial sunni minority, ooo those ayatollahs are just itching to massacre those poor sunnis and their MPs who influence legislation!

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Its called war, vacuum of power, poverty and the promise of huge paychecks. Its not a coincidence the suicidal sectarianism in Iraq flourished after the Iraq invasion after centuries of ottoman rule (and the brief british sojourn).. Iran has a substantial sunni minority, ooo those ayatollahs are just itching to massacre those poor sunnis and their MPs who influence legislation!

 

It's called excuses, apologetics, shirking of responsibility and dropping blame on the shoulders of the 'other'.

 

So there's no post-colonial power vacuum in non-Muslim Africa, in Southeast Asia, or in Latin America? Why are they not shouting war in the name of their respective culture or religion? Is there no poverty there and no paychecks to have?? Has it become a forte of Muslims to produce violence and traitors?

 

Why's no extremist Hindu organisaton blowing up British and American interests in India because the former ruled over them, changed their law regime, changed the educational curriculum and their whole social fabric? Where's the Hindu Boko Haram? Where are Vietnamese suicide bombers avenging the US invasion and destruction of that country?

 

I'd like to see Iranian Sunnis being allowed to protest in the streets of Tehran against the discriminatory policies of the Iranian government. Or a Bahai sit in against the inhumane treatment meted out them? Can you show me some pictures and reports?

 

And as for Pakistan, God forbid if is ever succeeds in fully becoming an ideological country, though it's been trying hard to be one since it's unfortunate inception, but luckily for people the military-mullah establishment doesn't agree on how to do it. Woe betide us if deranged mullahism gains political power in Pakistan, even though they have all the social power they can imagine, and steadily but surely pushing this hitherto vibrant society towards social fascism.

 

Meanwhile, it must be early summer in the United Kingdom eh? Tall trees, colourful flowers, healthy food to eat, nice roads to drive, pretty girls to ogle at, and good universities to graduate from? Any thought about starting a UK-based Boko Haram? Even as a token resistance to colonialism? :rolleyes:

 

Hypocrisy.

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China and Russia are far bigger threats to the US than the dysfunctional and puppet Islamic world where every country is under the American control except for Iran and Syria. Why hasnt the 100s of Billions of dollars of American dollars been unable to produce Chinese or Russian thugs to advance America's cause? And in Islamic world Iran is the biggest threat to the US, how come Americans have been unable to produce Iranian thugs to smear Iran's image?

 

Abu Hadi, have you ever been to any Islamic country for an extended period of time?

 

Russia and China are different cases. First, each has a strong central government that is accepted by the majority of the people.Second, these strong central governments have an extensive and professional (and ruthless) intelligence apparatus that could 'take care of' for the most part, any types of 'thug' problems rather quickly. So the U.S. would be hesitant to go into China and Russia using the same tactics (the above, plus maybe risk starting WWIII might also deter the U.S. a little). Based on what I have read, yes, the U.S. would like to do the same thing in China and Russia (and also Iran), but they don't have the ability to do that at the present, due to factors above. 

 

Places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc are easy for Psyops. These countries have a weak and corrupt central government and intelligence services that are easy to penetrate and manipulate. They have extensive

networks of cronies that can be paid off cheaply. These are soft targets. US Psyops is definitely operating there (this is well documented). Whether they are behind specific groups like Boko Haram, I'm not sure about, but there is  circumstantial evidence that they have some relationship with them. (which I covered in my previous post). 

 

To your second question, yes, I have had extended stays in more than one Muslim country. I have never been to Pakistan though, otherwise I would have posted about being mobbed at the airport in Karachi or Lahore by enthusiastic (and some angry) members of SC. I have also never been to Iran, although I sincerely with all my heart want to go, but no opportunity to go yet. InShahAllah soon. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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It's called excuses, apologetics, shirking of responsibility and dropping blame on the shoulders of the 'other'.

 

So there's no post-colonial power vacuum in non-Muslim Africa, in Southeast Asia, or in Latin America? Why are they not shouting war in the name of their respective culture or religion? Is there no poverty there and no paychecks to have?? Has it become a forte of Muslims to produce violence and traitors?

 

Why's no extremist Hindu organisaton blowing up British and American interests in India because the former ruled over them, changed their law regime, changed the educational curriculum and their whole social fabric? Where's the Hindu Boko Haram? Where are Vietnamese suicide bombers avenging the US invasion and destruction of that country?

 

I'd like to see Iranian Sunnis being allowed to protest in the streets of Tehran against the discriminatory policies of the Iranian government. Or a Bahai sit in against the inhumane treatment meted out them? Can you show me some pictures and reports?

 

And as for Pakistan, God forbid if is ever succeeds in fully becoming an ideological country, though it's been trying hard to be one since it's unfortunate inception, but luckily for people the military-mullah establishment doesn't agree on how to do it. Woe betide us if deranged mullahism gains political power in Pakistan, even though they have all the social power they can imagine, and steadily but surely pushing this hitherto vibrant society towards social fascism.

 

Meanwhile, it must be early summer in the United Kingdom eh? Tall trees, colourful flowers, healthy food to eat, nice roads to drive, pretty girls to ogle at, and good universities to graduate from? Any thought about starting a UK-based Boko Haram? Even as a token resistance to colonialism? :rolleyes:

 

Hypocrisy.

Haha what an uncle tom you are, parroting cliché talking points debunked years ago. 'Where are the hindu terrorists' its as if bajrang dal, RSS and all hindu terrorist attacks in india have never happened. Next you'll be bringing up the Buddhists and their non-existent good treatment of minorities in Sri Lanka and Burma.

 

Your whole post is just silly, mentally challenged sarcasm aimed at strawmen. 'Avenging colonialism', are you high? Posts like yours symbolise the irrational mentality of the uncle tom elite of Pakistan, they can never deal sensibly with criticism and always try to shift the discussion to something else.

 

Iran has law courts for sunni schools of thought, has sunni mp's, a sunni mayor..oh the discrimination! Always finding an excuse to attack politically active muslims, eh? Its almost as if you want sectarian conflict to happen :rolleyes: Im sorry Iran was much more of a success story than its neighbours who bask in being liberal failures (as is the case in your faux pride) .

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Haha what an uncle tom you are, parroting cliché talking points debunked years ago. 'Where are the hindu terrorists' its as if bajrang dal, RSS and all hindu terrorist attacks in india have never happened. Next you'll be bringing up the Buddhists and their non-existent good treatment of minorities in Sri Lanka and Burma.

 

Your whole post is just silly, mentally challenged sarcasm aimed at strawmen. 'Avenging colonialism', are you high? Posts like yours symbolise the irrational mentality of the uncle tom elite of Pakistan, they can never deal sensibly with criticism and always try to shift the discussion to something else.

 

Iran has law courts for sunni schools of thought, has sunni mp's, a sunni mayor..oh the discrimination! Always finding an excuse to attack politically active muslims, eh? Its almost as if you want sectarian conflict to happen :rolleyes: Im sorry Iran was much more of a success story than its neighbours who bask in being liberal failures (as is the case in your faux pride) .

 

More of the same from you. Mashallah.

 

Bajrang dal, RSS attacks....against Western interests and targets? Where? Do show me.

 

Buddhists avenging colonialism? Where? Do show me.

 

Vietnamese blowing up American embassies for the war? Where? Do show me.

 

Pakistan is an Islamist failure not a liberal one. I wish it were a liberal, pluralistic, secular polity, with religion one's private matter, sort of society you live and thrive in, Then mullahs would have been put in their rightful place as they are in India. In India even the most rabid of Deobanids (Wahhabis) speak meekly and mildly for they know they can't cross the secular, pluralistic boundaries of their national constitution. Turn to Pakistan and mullah is like a bloodthirsty zombie out there to suck blood off every neck he can lay hands on.  See the difference? I bet you don't.

 

Thanks.

 

I read the first one. If I am reading it correctly, the report is about a UK-registered charity (run by Africans as a matter of fact) ostensibly with a soft spot for the likes of Boko Haram, though it denies it.

 

How does it prove British funding of Boko?

Edited by Marbles
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More of the same from you. Mashallah.

 

Bajrang dal, RSS attacks....against Western interests and targets? Where? Do show me.

 

Buddhists avenging colonialism? Where? Do show me.

 

Vietnamese blowing up American embassies for the war? Where? Do show me.

 

Pakistan is an Islamist failure not a liberal one. I wish it were a liberal, pluralistic, secular society. Then mullahs would have been put in their rightful place as the are in India. In India even the most rabid of Deobanids (Wahhabis) speak mealy and mildly for they know they can't cross the secular, pluralistic boundaries of their national constitution. Turn to Pakistan and mullah is like a bloodthirsty zombie out there to suck blood off every neck and crevice he can find. Note the 'crevice'.  See the difference? I bet you don't.

 

Thanks.

Heh i just said 'avenging colonialism' is a strawman i never spoke of, and you repeated it again. You're clearly skim reading everything.

 

 The country is treacherous, filled with patriotic retards who demonise their own brothers from india who want a new life there (referring to them disparagingly as 'muhajirs'), your trash has basically turned 'muslim' into a matter of identity politics only. Only your elite can engender the paradox that is my pathan friend, a man who supports the Taliban whilst viciously defending his mother and sister's rejection of hijab. Only your elite has the audacity to call itself the Islamic Republic whilst legalizing the promiscuous trash that comes out of Lollywood.

 

Pakistan is a liberal failure always trying to imitate the individualism of its financial overlords, whilst it knows deep down within that its position of debt bondage will never make it an equal. No one in the region will miss you when the state is dismantled.

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Heh i just said 'avenging colonialism' is a strawman i never spoke of, and you repeated it again. You're clearly skim reading everything.

 

Excuse me but weren't you saying the wars and violence should be seen in the context of the colonial experience and its aftermath? Who and what these militants are up against then? Now, you have lost me. Why are you backtracking on what you said?

 

The country is treacherous, filled with patriotic retards who demonise their own brothers from india who want a new life there (referring to them disparagingly as 'muhajirs'), your trash has basically turned 'muslim' into a matter of identity politics only. Only your elite can engender the paradox that is my pathan friend, a man who supports the Taliban whilst viciously defending his mother and sister's rejection of hijab. Only your elite has the audacity to call itself the Islamic Republic whilst legalizing the promiscuous trash that comes out of Lollywood.

 

Pakistan is a liberal failure always trying to imitate the individualism of its financial overlords, whilst it knows deep down within that its position of debt bondage will never make it an equal. No one in the region will miss you when the state is dismantled.

 

Yes, there are other failures of this country but, again, the current situation is engendered when your beloved Islamist mullahs made a pact with the criminal nationalistic military to keep the whole society hostage in the name of Islam. They never let a genuine democracy and genuine pluralism take root, and blackmailed people in the name of Islam and into submission.

 

Don't rely on second news reports off the web, read some actual scholarly books that explain the dismal trajectory that that country took in the name of religion and you'll have a better understanding of things.

 

Even if the state is dismantled and dissolved, the bloodthirsty zombie foot-mullahs your beloved political Islamism has created will not go away. Oh no, they ain't gonna disappear overnight; they will be there to haunt themselves, the neighbours and the whole world. There is no way out.

 

And now that you have vented on how terrible Pakistan is, you might want to pay attention to the same zombie mullahs and their Satanic minions blowing up people and minorities in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Egypt, Yemen,  Saudi Arabia etc etc. So do you also want to dismantle those countries too and wish the zombies would disappear with too? :lol:

 

Now, I ask the question again, and please do stick to the point this time.

 

Show me Bajrang Dal, RSS, VHS or any other hardline Hindu group blowing up themselves on Western targets as a reaction to the suffering they endured under colonialism.

 

Or the Africans blowing up Belgian or Dutch targets because all the massacres those colonialists carried out in their countries? Or any other country with similar experiences.?

Don't keep repeating 'strawman, strawman, but answer me.

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No ones avenging colonialism you dimwit, that's not my point at all.

 

You just want to scapegoat islamists to explain your failures, you cry about the zina hudud introduced by Zia without even bothering to actually understand the laws (just the usual crying about four witnesses). The islamization of Pakistan is a charade to please the masses, people in Pakistan know this and you want to pretend mullahs are happy and ok with Lollywood.

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No ones avenging colonialism you dimwit, that's not my point at all.

 

You just want to scapegoat islamists to explain your failures, you cry about the zina hudud introduced by Zia without even bothering to actually understand the laws (just the usual crying about four witnesses). The islamization of Pakistan is a charade to please the masses, people in Pakistan know this and you want to pretend mullahs are happy and ok with Lollywood.

 

First, I don't take kindly to name-calling. I have not done it, won't do it, and ask you not to do it again. Attack the idea, not the person. Is that clear?

 

Second, why don't you answer my question and explain your viewpoint? Every time I have responded to you, you have ignored it, and picked up some loose thread about something else. Why beat about the bush??

 

I agree Islamisation is a charade, and the quicker we do away with that charade the better, for everyone. And no, you're mistaken, mullahs aren't happy with things. Have you ever heard a Paki mullah speak? How dissatisfied he is with television, music and uncovered women, but he is fine with indoctrinating madrassahs, bombings, murder and oppression of minorities, and frequent calls for massacring the Ahmadis....You will never understand unless you come down here and feel their music.

 

Anyway, if you don't want to answer me, fine, it's your right, but I will repeat the questions and let you have the last word if you don't reply to my question in a clear and educated manner.

 

What are Islamist militants fighting against and to what purpose? I said it's bloodthirsty ideology, a violent interpretation of Islam, a misplaced desire to resurrect a mythical golden past, to implement obsolete and defunct laws etc, and that for the most part this violence is not due to some actual, material grievances. And I stand by what I said. You said it should be looked in the context of historical colonialism of Muslim lands and that it's a reaction to that colonialism. Am I paraphrasing you faithfully? Do you stand by what you said or not?

 

Besides, you still haven't shown me RSS, VHS, Bajrang Dal or any other Hindu extremist militant group blowing up themselves on American or British targets. Or Buddhist reaction to colonialism. Or Latin American reaction or African reaction. Why are there no parallels with Islamists' Islam?

 

I'm not scapegoating anyone. (although you tried to scapegoat Pashtuns and then Pakistanis, but failed). I'm only calling things by their very names without munching words. And it is completely compatible with my Muslim faith to reject the worldview of mullahs and their regressive and violent ideologies. Why is it incompatible with yours?

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First, I don't take kindly to name-calling. I have not done it, won't do it, and ask you not to do it again. Attack the idea, not the person. Is that clear?

 

Second, why don't you answer my question and explain your viewpoint? Every time I have responded to you, you have ignored it, and picked up some loose thread about something else. Why beat about the bush??

 

I agree Islamisation is a charade, and the quicker we do away with that charade the better, for everyone. And no, you're mistaken, mullahs aren't happy with things. Have you ever heard a Paki mullah speak? How dissatisfied he is with television, music and uncovered women, but he is fine with indoctrinating madrassahs, bombings, murder and oppression of minorities, and frequent calls for massacring the Ahmadis....You will never understand unless you come down here and feel their music.

 

Anyway, if you don't want to answer me, fine, it's your right, but I will repeat the questions and let you have the last word if you don't reply to my question in a clear and educated manner.

 

What are Islamist militants fighting against and to what purpose? I said it's bloodthirsty ideology, a violent interpretation of Islam, a misplaced desire to resurrect a mythical golden past, to implement obsolete and defunct laws etc, and that for the most part this violence is not due to some actual, material grievances. And I stand by what I said. You said it should be looked in the context of historical colonialism of Muslim lands and that it's a reaction to that colonialism. Am I paraphrasing you faithfully? Do you stand by what you said or not?

 

Besides, you still haven't shown me RSS, VHS, Bajrang Dal or any other Hindu extremist militant group blowing up themselves on American or British targets. Or Buddhist reaction to colonialism. Or Latin American reaction or African reaction. Why are there no parallels with Islamists' Islam?

 

I'm not scapegoating anyone. (although you tried to scapegoat Pashtuns and then Pakistanis, but failed). I'm only calling things by their very names without munching words. And it is completely compatible with my Muslim faith to reject the worldview of mullahs and their regressive and violent ideologies. Why is it incompatible with yours?

 

 Cry me a river, dishing out sneering sarcasm has gotten you these insults. I guess i'll content myself with the sarcasm.  

 

You contradict yourself at every turn, at one point you're thanking the Lord Islamism hasn't taken over the next minute you scapegoat the islamists. But thats my point, isnt it? We can scapegoat anyone, be it the Pashtuns, wahhabi monkeys, debt bondage, but its never going to give the full picture. Thats the thing, the social and legal problems are so varied yet you prefer the over-simplistic analysis of "blame the islamists". At least acknowledge the rampant dangers to woman's rights and general peace engendered by tribalism, otherwise those beautiful villages in the region will soon spiral into the wasteland iraq has become. 

 

Now you realise im not talking about any 'avenging', thank God. Well many resistance movements have been formed throughout the world using practically the same tactics- be it communist, anarchist, or even liberal (in America's case). There is no hindu resistance movement because there's neither an infidel occupation going on nor hindu preachers being massacred by the government for advocating a return to dharma.  Same case with the Buddhists. (remember the kamikazes and oppression of christians in burma as your homework). 

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 Cry me a river, dishing out sneering sarcasm has gotten you these insults. I guess i'll content myself with the sarcasm.  

 

You contradict yourself at every turn, at one point you're thanking the Lord Islamism hasn't taken over the next minute you scapegoat the islamists. But thats my point, isnt it? We can scapegoat anyone, be it the Pashtuns, wahhabi monkeys, debt bondage, but its never going to give the full picture. Thats the thing, the social and legal problems are so varied yet you prefer the over-simplistic analysis of "blame the islamists". At least acknowledge the rampant dangers to woman's rights and general peace engendered by tribalism, otherwise those beautiful villages in the region will soon spiral into the wasteland iraq has become. 

 

There is no contradiction; political Islamisation (read: Wahhabisation) has not fully taken place and God forbid if it ever takes place, but its proponents are trying tooth and nail to impose it, and using all violent means at their disposal. Even a blind can see that, and the repercussions this is having for the society is there to see too. I don't understand your fixation with almost non-existent liberalism in Pakistan. It's like saying America has a vibrant left wing politics. There is no lashkar-e-seculari out there to behead poor Islamists and bomb them out into oblivion, oh but there are many lashkars, tanzeems, jaishes whose only purpose of existence is to terrorise anyone who is not them.

 

The dangers of tribalism to women and the society are nebulous compared to the dangers of violent and fascistic Islamism. Those places were still peaceful with centuries old tribalism; come your average 'mujahid' and the rivers of blood have been shed - and all that before a single drone fell over from the sky. Cause and effect.

 

Pak is a Sunni country with a strong and powerful Wahhabi Islamist lobby. Any Shia or even an ordinary Sunni knows full well that the call to 'shariah' is a disguised call to barbarity and oppression. If ever they succeed you'll have Taliban Part II sort of government, not anything like there's in Iran.

 

And this is so everywhere from Iraq to Sudan and from Egypt to Syria, so why focus on Pak only?

 

Now you realise im not talking about any 'avenging', thank God. Well msany resistance movements have been formed throughout the world using practically the same tactics- be it communist, anarchist, or even liberal (in America's case). There is no hindu resistance movement because there's neither an infidel occupation going on nor hindu preachers being massacred by the government for advocating a return to dharma.  Same case with the Buddhists. (remember the kamikazes and oppression of christians in burma as your homework).

 

 

Fighting against occupation of what? Of whims and fancies?

 

Which occupation the Taliban dogs were fighting for the brief 4 years they ruled over Afghanistan? Fighting occupation by killing ordinary common man, killing Shias and others? by denying education to women? by implementing social fascism in the name of religion? By harbouring terrorists in their country (which then led to the US invasion). What sort of fight against occupation was that eh?

 

And which foreign occupation were your Islamists fighting when they converged in Syria against Assad? Which occupation they are fighting in Iraq today? When Americans withdrew from Vietnam, the resistance against them stopped. But after 50 years Americans will have withdrawn from Iraq, the beholders of the violent, absolutist, puritanical ideologies will keep butchering their own coreligionists in the name of religion. Where does it happen apart from in the House of Islam?

 

Hindu preachers aren't being massacred because they aren't massacring the common people, not calling for a return to some mythical past by killing non-Hindus and their Hindu coreligionists who disagree with them. There is no occupation there because they are not a nuisance to the world. Are you really comparing rather meek Hindu extremism, or Buddhist extremism, with the Islamist extremism in the world? How can you compare a mouse and an elephant, and an elephant which is in the room and you deny its existence?

 

Japan is practically occupied by American forces stationed there. I see no Japanese people blowing themselves up, even if they are nationalistic and don't agree with paying obeisance to the American lords. For educational purposes, check the reaction of Muslim extremists to a similar situation in Saudi Arabia - No violent ideology eh? But just reaction to occupation eh?

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In what ways its modern? I thought you'd never ask.

 

It has functioning healthcare system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has functioning education system, just like Muslims had before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It has a secure social system, just like Muslims ahd before and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

It is innovative in science and technology, just like Muslims were and West wasnt, but Muslims are not today.

It has a trading system, just like Muslims had and West didnt, but Muslims dont today.

 

etc etc etc

Most goods used in West came from Islamic world back when Islam was the most modern system in the world. Most goods used in Islamic world comes from West as it has the most modern system in the world.

 

Islam has nothing to do with modernization in terms of techs, science, x and y system or making and exporting goods...those who claim that Islam was responsible from chemistry to medicine and etc.. in the old ages are being just simplistic and are nothing but emotion talks... Islam probably did help Muslims to make some achievements, but that wasn't the main focus of Islam... in case you think Islam is responsible for everything, including researching on MERS virus in Saudi Arabi and/or winning a world-cup soccer for Turkey or Iran, you should understand that Islam's main focus is: -worshiping (calling on and teaching the proper way to the believers), -morality, and to establish -justice system (judicial laws and related issues to be implemented under Sharia).. Comparing the west with Islam is not valid... maybe to compare it with Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism.... and etc... especially on such issues would be a good and valid thing to do... Else, having nice buildings in Toronto is not the result of Christianity's teachings, and lacking such buildings in Bangladesh is not the result of (Islam) being lazy or the reason to that. We have Budhist and Christian of the East who also are way backward in modern techs than the Christian or atheist west and they are in 100s of millions and living in 1000s of cities in the east... or even in the west themselves, like South America who is way backward even than some Muslim countries...

 

And when it comes to Takfiris, we don't consider them Muslims and they do not consier us (Shias) to be Muslim... then there is no reason to acknowledge to the so called problem amongst the Muslim ummah when we don't consider them to be one of us to begin with. If a Takfiri is beheading me for being a 'Shia' and provoked by general-politics of western/Saudi oilLines then I don't see why I should admit that he is part of my problem or part of my religion's problem?!!!

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Why are you having difficulty understanding? Im speaking about collective guilt indirectly stamped on every religious guy out there (where a qari, ayatollah etc). This discourse says unless every devout muslim's protests are publicized we're all a shame. Its ridiculous. Muslims in Nigeria are protesting more strongly than ever against these boko frauds. If people are quick to label those protesting about cartoons as representative of muslim anger, why cant they do the same regarding these Nigerian muslims?

 

Its all a farce.

 

Its more accusation for you than actual proof. You also accused me of berating Ayatollah and also without being able to put forth any sort of evidence.

 

Furthermore, it aint a good debating technique to accuse people for no absolute reason by your own preconceived notions. Let people be judged by consequences of their action and not the title that they carry on infront of their names. Being an Ayatollah or a Qari or a religious person should not be used as a card blanche or set them above the rest for we all are human beings and will be judged according to our actions. I know of this Ayatollah in Kabul who married a pretty 12 or 13 year old girl and then had her brother killed for protesting this pedophile act. Then there are Ayatollahs Khomenei (ra) or Khamenei or Sistani. Being Ayatollah does not mean anything but actions of those Ayatollah.

 

Lastly, I feel guilty as a human being for such inhumane actions of Boko Haram, as a Muslim more so for they do their evil deeds under the banner of Islam, and I would have felt the most guilty if I were from the same tribe as those idiots. Its all common sense. no?

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Russia and China are different cases. First, each has a strong central government that is accepted by the majority of the people.Second, these strong central governments have an extensive and professional (and ruthless) intelligence apparatus that could 'take care of' for the most part, any types of 'thug' problems rather quickly. So the U.S. would be hesitant to go into China and Russia using the same tactics (the above, plus maybe risk starting WWIII might also deter the U.S. a little). Based on what I have read, yes, the U.S. would like to do the same thing in China and Russia (and also Iran), but they don't have the ability to do that at the present, due to factors above. 

 

Places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc are easy for Psyops. These countries have a weak and corrupt central government and intelligence services that are easy to penetrate and manipulate. They have extensive

networks of cronies that can be paid off cheaply. These are soft targets. US Psyops is definitely operating there (this is well documented). Whether they are behind specific groups like Boko Haram, I'm not sure about, but there is  circumstantial evidence that they have some relationship with them. (which I covered in my previous post). 

 

To your second question, yes, I have had extended stays in more than one Muslim country. I have never been to Pakistan though, otherwise I would have posted about being mobbed at the airport in Karachi or Lahore by enthusiastic (and some angry) members of SC. I have also never been to Iran, although I sincerely with all my heart want to go, but no opportunity to go yet. InShahAllah soon. 

 

Assuming that this 'psyops' and spending of billions of dollars are done for financial interests of the US where US spends millions to get billions and spends billions to get trillions. So its all business. And America does business everywhere.... even in China or Russia, or in poor countries like Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Ecuador or....... but we only see beheadings and stone age acts in Muslim societies. You should ask yourself why?

 

You should ask yourself why American pawns in Russia or China are called democratic activists while in Islamic countries they become beheaders and murderers? Why do American pawns dont behead in South America? Chinese or Russian or even American govts are not that strong to stop people from committing crimes but yet we see different crimes in Islamic societies (terrorism) while in non-Islamic countries they have different shapes and forms. America or whoever has not been able to produce one beheader in Iran, a country that tops the list of America's adversary in the world. Its not because Iran has a strong secret service that can see inside people's heads. But its because Iranians, like the Chinese, or the Russians are more cultured. In Afghanistan likewise. Hazaras are the poorest Afghans due to a century old govt blockade and usurpation....leading one to believe that they must be ripe for being taken advantage and unleashed into society as terrorists and beheaders. But that is not the case. To this day not even one terrorist has been produced from among them.

 

Its not poverty. Its not strong or weak govt. Its nothing but the perverted interpretation of Islam. And its time that we acknowledged this fact.

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Islam has nothing to do with modernization in terms of techs, science, x and y system or making and exporting goods...those who claim that Islam was responsible from chemistry to medicine and etc.. in the old ages are being just simplistic and are nothing but emotion talks... Islam probably did help Muslims to make some achievements, but that wasn't the main focus of Islam... in case you think Islam is responsible for everything, including researching on MERS virus in Saudi Arabi and/or winning a world-cup soccer for Turkey or Iran, you should understand that Islam's main focus is: -worshiping (calling on and teaching the proper way to the believers), -morality, and to establish -justice system (judicial laws and related issues to be implemented under Sharia).. Comparing the west with Islam is not valid... maybe to compare it with Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism.... and etc... especially on such issues would be a good and valid thing to do... Else, having nice buildings in Toronto is not the result of Christianity's teachings, and lacking such buildings in Bangladesh is not the result of (Islam) being lazy or the reason to that. We have Budhist and Christian of the East who also are way backward in modern techs than the Christian or atheist west and they are in 100s of millions and living in 1000s of cities in the east... or even in the west themselves, like South America who is way backward even than some Muslim countries...

 

We are saying the same thing but approaching the subject from two different directions. I say Islam was put forth to humanity to guide them towards good and forbid them from doing evil. You say that Islam was put forth for us to worship and establish justices.... which at the end is the same thing.

That said and going by your logic and that Islam is about establishing moral codes, justice system etc then that in itself would lead to a uniform, stable, and successful society. Yes Islam was not put forth to teach us about Physics or engineering but the proper application of Islam, as was the case in first 1000 years of it, lead to a more balanced and just society. It was these moral codes, fair justice system, and rule of law that led to achievements of the early Muslims.

My comparison of Islam and West today rests on the same logic. West has achieved what it has not from some rabbit in the hat trick but from a more balanced and more just society vis-a-vis the Islamic world. There was responsibility for the citizens and accountability for leaders. Citizens were not demonized for no reasons and leaders not deified for no reason. 

 

At the end of the day its all universal. Doing good will lead you to good places and doing bad to bad places regardless of you being a christian, a muslim, a jew, or an atheist. Within the last decade we see the level of corruption rising in some Western countries and we also see the social decline in those societies. Some of the reason for our own backwardness definitely rests with the international order that was created by the West, and hence favouring them, but most of our problems is our own doing. 

And when it comes to Takfiris, we don't consider them Muslims and they do not consier us (Shias) to be Muslim... then there is no reason to acknowledge to the so called problem amongst the Muslim ummah when we don't consider them to be one of us to begin with. If a Takfiri is beheading me for being a 'Shia' and provoked by general-politics of western/Saudi oilLines then I don't see why I should admit that he is part of my problem or part of my religion's problem?!!!

 

Its not as much about mutual acceptance as is about actions. Many people in the world dont agree with one another. Take a look at Eastern and Western Ukrainians for example. They both hate one another equally, if not more, than Shias and Sunnis. But we dont see the horrors that are committed under the banner of Islam in Ukraine. This is not to say that Islam is responsible for this because such horror is a fairly recent phenomenon. Its a sickness or a virus that has crept within Islam that is rotting it from within. If we go on to deny such things then we go on to become sicker and eventually we'd die.... as was the case with the Catholic church.

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Assuming that this 'psyops' and spending of billions of dollars are done for financial interests of the US where US spends millions to get billions and spends billions to get trillions. So its all business. And America does business everywhere.... even in China or Russia, or in poor countries like Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Ecuador or....... but we only see beheadings and stone age acts in Muslim societies. You should ask yourself why?

 

You should ask yourself why American pawns in Russia or China are called democratic activists while in Islamic countries they become beheaders and murderers? Why do American pawns dont behead in South America? Chinese or Russian or even American govts are not that strong to stop people from committing crimes but yet we see different crimes in Islamic societies (terrorism) while in non-Islamic countries they have different shapes and forms. America or whoever has not been able to produce one beheader in Iran, a country that tops the list of America's adversary in the world. Its not because Iran has a strong secret service that can see inside people's heads. But its because Iranians, like the Chinese, or the Russians are more cultured. In Afghanistan likewise. Hazaras are the poorest Afghans due to a century old govt blockade and usurpation....leading one to believe that they must be ripe for being taken advantage and unleashed into society as terrorists and beheaders. But that is not the case. To this day not even one terrorist has been produced from among them.

 

Its not poverty. Its not strong or weak govt. Its nothing but the perverted interpretation of Islam. And its time that we acknowledged this fact.

 

100% for that. The same goes for Hazaras in Pakistan. Despite being oppressed, killed and made to spread to the four corners of the country, and the world, there is no terrorism among Hazaras. They are armed in many cases and can easily pull off a reprisal attack on Wahhabi mosques and madrassahs but they don't.

 

Sunnis here in Pakistan sometimes ask confusedly as to why the Hazaras don't retaliate. But the question is: retaliate against whom? Their killers are quick and they disappear in the shadows after murdering them. The only retaliation that Hazaras can do is against ordinary Sunnis. But they don't.

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Fighting against occupation of what? Of whims and fancies?

 

Which occupation the Taliban dogs were fighting for the brief 4 years they ruled over Afghanistan? Fighting occupation by killing ordinary common man, killing Shias and others? by denying education to women? by implementing social fascism in the name of religion? By harbouring terrorists in their country (which then led to the US invasion). What sort of fight against occupation was that eh?

 

And which foreign occupation were your Islamists fighting when they converged in Syria against Assad? Which occupation they are fighting in Iraq today? When Americans withdrew from Vietnam, the resistance against them stopped. But after 50 years Americans will have withdrawn from Iraq, the beholders of the violent, absolutist, puritanical ideologies will keep butchering their own coreligionists in the name of religion. Where does it happen apart from in the House of Islam?

 

Hindu preachers aren't being massacred because they aren't massacring the common people, not calling for a return to some mythical past by killing non-Hindus and their Hindu coreligionists who disagree with them. There is no occupation there because they are not a nuisance to the world. Are you really comparing rather meek Hindu extremism, or Buddhist extremism, with the Islamist extremism in the world? How can you compare a mouse and an elephant, and an elephant which is in the room and you deny its existence?

 

Japan is practically occupied by American forces stationed there. I see no Japanese people blowing themselves up, even if they are nationalistic and don't agree with paying obeisance to the American lords. For educational purposes, check the reaction of Muslim extremists to a similar situation in Saudi Arabia - No violent ideology eh? But just reaction to occupation eh?

This is what i mean about context, if we dont get it we can easily fall for any ballyhoo war propaganda  thrown in our face. The Taliban are well known to advocate segregation of the sexes in schools, whilst they shut down many 'westernised schools'. No ones supporting these unsophisticated lunatics, but we have to know what is their authentic view and what they really do in the name of Islam (rather than some vendetta or pashtunwali code). You're living in the past, newspapers here in europe have long been publishing articles about Taliban's opposition to Al-Qaeda; simply asking for 'proof' of bin Laden's involvement in 9/11 doesnt equate to knowingly sheltering terrorists. 

 

You missed what i was hinting about hindu preachers. This is exactly how Boko Haram became militant, it was a peaceful activist movement for 7 years until government forces began massacring its followers . Read its history. 

 

Its sad to see Japan quiet about the subject, who knows maybe there will be an uprising one day. Apparently fighting for independance amounts to subscribing to a violent ideology for you lol, besharam. 

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This is what i mean about context, if we dont get it we can easily fall for any ballyhoo war propaganda  thrown in our face. The Taliban are well known to advocate segregation of the sexes in schools, whilst they shut down many 'westernised schools'. No ones supporting these unsophisticated lunatics, but we have to know what is their authentic view and what they really do in the name of Islam (rather than some vendetta or pashtunwali code). You're living in the past, newspapers here in europe have long been publishing articles about Taliban's opposition to Al-Qaeda; simply asking for 'proof' of bin Laden's involvement in 9/11 doesnt equate to knowingly sheltering terrorists. 

 

You missed what i was hinting about hindu preachers. This is exactly how Boko Haram became militant, it was a peaceful activist movement for 7 years until government forces began massacring its followers . Read its history. 

 

Its sad to see Japan quiet about the subject, who knows maybe there will be an uprising one day. Apparently fighting for independance amounts to subscribing to a violent ideology for you lol, besharam. 

 

Since you will not hold your tongue, I better leave you with your wishful fantasies and bratty denials of the dangers lurking at the door of every Muslim society. You can have the lovely life you have in the kaffir UK whose salt you eat and whose water you drink, and pontificate about how people ought to live down here, while the people who are actually living under the shadow of terror will have to formulate their own, fitting response.

 

What does it matter to you, anyway; after all, all your information comes from newspapers reports skimmed off the web; you have not have an iota of real life experience from places where things are actually happening.

 

While you find out about the 'real' viewpoints in your faux academic pose, the happy and innocent lives are continuing to be destroyed by the people you are, perhaps inadvertently, siding, all in the misplaced hope of winning a stupid argument.

 

This thread has been an eye opener. It is one thing to disassociate ourselves from the rabid Sunni/Wahhabi ideology that seeks to impose Islamofasicsm on Muslim society, and argue that we as Shias have nothing to do with it, aren't guilty about it, and shouldn't apologise for it, as some brothers here in this thread have argued. But it is quite another thing to give even a fraction of legitimacy to the demands, views and aspirations of Sunni/Wahhabi Islamist ideology, which has produced nothing but barbarism and destruction, whenever it has got a chance, everywhere in the world. As the saying goes, 'by their fruit you will recognise them...' - so yeah...

 

These are the Shias who actually live in a theoretical limbo and their whole life-knowledge is derived from a chair and a table and with a laptop on it.

 

Happy lala land.

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