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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Do Our Christian Members Say About Gays

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You spectacularly missed my point. I was not advocating homosexuality; I was pointing out how the other poster was wrong.

 

I understand that.

 

I believe there are several solutions to the population problem.

And while homos may reduce the population in this world, they may increase the population of those finding it difficult to get into heaven. 

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Our Alberta Premier just resigned and skipped town after being forced to pay back the $45,000. she spent going to Nelson Mandela's funeral.

This is the point of view of the Apostle Paul:   Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 

Even if a country could be described as a full-fletched Islamic state, there are several points to consider in case of any punishment.   Firstly, Imam Ali has said "don't rush through with punishments

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I understand that.

I believe there are several solutions to the population problem.

And while homos may reduce the population in this world, they may increase the population of those finding it difficult to get into heaven.

Iran used to have a policy called "one is good and two is plenty" to encourage smaller families. They provided contraception and sterilization free of charge (well, at the governments expense, obviously) and it worked spectacularly well. Unfortunately, when Khamene'i took over, he reversed the policy and encouraged Iranians to have as many children as possible.

Edit: the policy was during the time of Khomeini. Felt like I needed to clarify that before someone came in here calling me a Shah-sympathizer and IRI-hater.

Edited by Agora
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Iran used to have a policy called "one is good and two is plenty" to encourage smaller families. 

 

That was too little. I think they should follow the rule

 

"Two is enough and three is welcome but two is better".

 

That should keep the numbers in check.

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That was too little. I think they should follow the rule

"Two is enough and three is welcome but two is better".

That should keep the numbers in check.

There actually wasn't a rule. There were absolutely no limits and those that wants more children were free to do so. They just encouraged 1-2 and offered free contraceptives. But I agree, 2 is a great number. You're merely replacing yourselves. No increase.
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I guess this was aimed at me, but I do not recognise this as my picture of Paul. I just do not believe one has to agree with all of his personal opinions. Or is that what you demand from a Christian?

More a statement of surprise, and my sarcasm getting away on me. Two thirds of the NT is Paul, so it's hard to get around him. I don't have any problems with his opinion so I never thought of disagreeing. It would be hypocritical of me to condemn someone for not believing what I do, and I don't make standards for others to live up to in order to be accepted either. No worries, I'm not jumping on you.

 

Quite honestly, I could care less about gays. The two that couldn't keep their hands out of each other's pants on a Montreal escalator didn't impress me much, but

I don't g out of my way, either way.

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More a statement of surprise, and my sarcasm getting away on me. Two thirds of the NT is Paul, so it's hard to get around him. I don't have any problems with his opinion so I never thought of disagreeing. It would be hypocritical of me to condemn someone for not believing what I do, and I don't make standards for others to live up to in order to be accepted either. No worries, I'm not jumping on you.

Quite honestly, I could care less about gays. The two that couldn't keep their hands out of each other's pants on a Montreal escalator didn't impress me much, but

I don't g out of my way, either way.

The first generation of Christians had not a NT. We know they did not agree with Paul on every subject, but we have not got their story. I am certain they did not understand homosexuals either, but this tells me I do not necessarily have to ageee with Paul on everything. And we know he was not always right.
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Quite honestly, I could care less about gays. 

 

It appears from this thread that some people believe that Jesus did not say a word against homosexuality and therefore it is OK.

 

Plain common sense tells me that Jesus did not have to mention things that were commonly known.

 

Jews regarded homosexuality as a sin and therefore by default, it continues to be a sin for Christianity as well.

 

There was absolutely no need for Jesus to re-invent a wheel which was already in motion. 

Edited by baqar
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Gays are human so you need to love them. Some of them may not choose to live a gay lifestyle, and are pressured into getting married and having kids. The Catholic church condems this by saying that these people should remain celebate. Whether or not they do is their choice, but they are still your neighbors, etc. You are not allowed to slander them by calling them hurtful names (Col. 3:8). Saying or doing anything in bad character is reprehensable.

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Col 3;

 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

 

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

 

 

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.

 

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Character of the New Man

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

 

14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

 

17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

 

That's Paul again ;)

 

 

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Col 3;

 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

 

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

 

 

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.

 

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Character of the New Man

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

 

14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

 

17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

 

That's Paul again ;)

 

 

 

And so your problem with this is what?

 

Let's review what Paul is saying:

1) Hanging out with your Christian brethren is good for your souls enrichment.

2) Cut out all the evil you are doing.

3) Don't lie to anyone; everyone is equal to everyone else.

4) Don't curse anyone ever.

5) Love everyone in Christ.

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the position of the Church is absolutely clear on homosexuality, there is no confusion.

 

Note, this is the position of the Catholic Church (Orthodox agree with the Catholic position), the other pretend Protestant Churches accept Gays, have Gay Priests, and even have Gay marriages in their Churches!!

 

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)

 

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
 
CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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Salaam,

 

The Christian position on homosexual acts is well explained by amicum shreek above. It is something that goes contrary to natural law. It cannot under any circumstances be merged with traditional Christian views – the fact that some churches accept it is simply a result of liberal influence on them.

 

I usually explain this as all human beings having bad desires. For example, I sometimes have the desire to eat food that would be unhealthy, this does not mean I have to or should do this.

 

However, no offence intended, but I must say I feel at least the traditional Catholic position on this being more consistent than the one I hear usually being expressed by Muslims. Sexuality cannot be taken from it's two purposes: one is to unite man and woman in matrimony, the other is to create life. There are deviances from this practiced by heterosexual couples that are unnatural as well.

Edited by Leo Septentrionalis
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It is something that goes contrary to natural law. 

 

In Islam, it is irrelevant if something is natural or unnatural.

 

Homosexuality is a sin not because it is unnatural but because God has forbidden it.

 

May be that is why He has forbidden it. But that is beside the point.

 

Islam does not ask God why He permits something or forbids something.

 

If He permits somethng, good. It is permitted.

 

If He forbids something, also good. It is forbidden.  

 

The same goes  for everything that is inherently not wrong including diet restrictions.

 

Defrauding, lying and the like are not acceptable because they are inherently wrong.

 

If something is inherently wrong, the reason is important and God will forbid it anyway.   

 

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

 

Islam accepts that.

 

They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. 

 

Islam accepts that only if they keep their tendency to themselves. Once they 'come out', they qualify for the death sentence. 

Edited by PeaceLoving
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In Islam, it is irrelevant if something is natural or unnatural.

Homosexuality is a sin not because it is unnatural but because God has forbidden it.

May be that is why He has forbidden it. But that is beside the point.

Islam does not ask God why He permits something or forbids something.

If He permits somethng, good. It is permitted.

If He forbids something, also good. It is forbidden.

The same goes for everything that is inherently not wrong including diet restrictions.

Defrauding, lying and the like are not acceptable because they are inherently wrong.

If something is inherently wrong, the reason is important and God will forbid it anyway.

Islam accepts that.

Islam accepts that only if they keep their tendency to themselves. Once they 'come out', they qualify for the death sentence.

If you live in a country where homosexuality is not forbidden, would you feel obliged to fix the execution when the authorities refuses to do what God has decided?
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If you live in a country where homosexuality is not forbidden, would you feel obliged to fix the execution when the authorities refuses to do what God has decided?

 

Of course not. 

 

Execution of homosexuals is only permitted in a land which follows Islamic law in every respect. At the moment, there is no such land.

 

The first thing in Islamic law is the equal distribution of wealth. Islamic law does not allow the existence of wealthy people who have become super-rich while the poor and needy are suffering in pain and deprivation.

 

When Imam Ali became caliph, his aides offered to scout out a palace for him to live in.

 

He flatly refused.

 

In so-called Islamic countries, on the other hand, you have all these rich and super-rich people living like gods.

 

Such countries may say they are following Isla ic law but threy are not.

 

And PARTIAL Islamic law is meaningless.

 

As long as you have these rich people at the cost of the poor, it is PARTIAL Islamic law and you cannot execute any homosexual.

 

That is my belief, anyway.

 

You can ask other Muslims for theirs. 

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Even if a country could be described as a full-fletched Islamic state, there are several points to consider in case of any punishment.

 

Firstly, Imam Ali has said "don't rush through with punishments".

 

Secondly, in some cases, Imam Ali used to try and find excuses for the offender.

 

The attitude of most Islamic states is completely different.

 

·        they like to rush through the punishment and

 

·        they don't try to find an excuse that would mitigate the crime.

 

There is no Muslim country that ever tries to hold on to those high ideals.

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If you live in a country where homosexuality is not forbidden, would you feel obliged to fix the execution when the authorities refuses to do what God has decided?

 

There is something I forgot to say in my last post.

 

Under Islamic law, for those "coming out", death sentence, in my view, becomes a MUST.

 

The reason, I think, would be that "coming out" denotes "contempt of God's Law" and "defiance of Divine Will".

 

God is very forgiving but He does not like defiance.

 

Also, such a thing would encourage others to do the same. 

 

Anyway, that is just my opinion.

 

So please don't quote me.

 

I am not a jurist

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Of course not.

Execution of homosexuals is only permitted in a land which follows Islamic law in every respect. At the moment, there is no such land.

The first thing in Islamic law is the equal distribution of wealth. Islamic law does not allow the existence of wealthy people who have become super-rich while the poor and needy are suffering in pain and deprivation.

When Imam Ali became caliph, his aides offered to scout out a palace for him to live in.

He flatly refused.

In so-called Islamic countries, on the other hand, you have all these rich and super-rich people living like gods.

Such countries may say they are following Isla ic law but threy are not.

And PARTIAL Islamic law is meaningless.

As long as you have these rich people at the cost of the poor, it is PARTIAL Islamic law and you cannot execute any homosexual.

That is my belief, anyway.

You can ask other Muslims for theirs.

I can understand that a complete sharia law is nevessary in order to execute homosexuals. But were there ever a state that all Muslims agree was a Sharia state? Brunei will now give it a try. Stoning, amputations and other horrord that belong to the ignorant past. Islam has existed 1.400 years. Muslims even believe Islam existed from Adam and Eve. 6.000 years ago according to the Bible, and 100.000 years according to science, which Muslims have no problem with since the Quran gives no age and the Bible is corrupted. You today waiting for Muslims to agree on creating the first true Islamic state ever. Is there nothing inside your head telling you it may be an illusion.?????
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And so your problem with this is what?

 

Let's review what Paul is saying:

1) Hanging out with your Christian brethren is good for your souls enrichment.

2) Cut out all the evil you are doing.

3) Don't lie to anyone; everyone is equal to everyone else.

4) Don't curse anyone ever.

5) Love everyone in Christ.

Not sure I understand why you think I have a problem with this. I really don't need a review, I know it well and follow it as well as the rest of Paul's ministry. Of course Paul wasn't Catholic.

 

Don't you think verses 12/13 are more relevant to your post?

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 Is there nothing inside your head telling you it may be an illusion.?????

 

It may well be.

 

But "pick and choose" is clearly a form of cheating.

 

Wealth is a major part of the directions for living that are derived from Islamic philosophy.

 

If you are wealthy, then in most cases, though not all, you have become rich at the cost of others. 

 

Or you have acquired wealth from your father or grand-father and they had become rich at the cost of others.  

 

Even if your wealth is acquired by 100% honest means,  you are still not allowed to hang onto it if there is ONE single man, woman or child living in squalor or want. 

 

And that includes non-Muslims.

 

Imam Ali had treated non-Muslims so well that when he died, Jewish and Christian women and children of Kufa mourned his death as one does one's own father.  

 

In general terms, Islam abhors wealth and even more, the trappings of wealth.

 

The government must see to it that government employees are living no better than the poorest man in the country.

 

In a truly Islamic state, the President and Prime Minister are not allowed to live in mansions, fly their special aeroplanes or be chauffeured in luxury cars.  

Edited by PeaceLoving
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Before Brunei gives it a try, the king will have to move to a small apartment and drive his own car without use of a chauffeur.

 

Driving your own car instead of being driven around will not be enough.  A truly Muslim king would take the bus or use a bicycle. For short distances, walking will be the right thing to do. And there will be no state banquets or visiting other world leaders and staying in $3,000 a night hotel suites with the costliest 21st century fittings. They could talk to all world leaders on Skype or in the olden days, by courier.

 

Imam Ali's rebuke to his governor at Kufa, Uthman bin Hunaif for rubbing shoulders with the rich and the famous is very clear how simply a governor should live.

 

 

The Imam was himself always seen in clothes that even the poorest would find fit to discard and eating food that was difficult to swallow.  At one point he was seen mending his old shoes. His cousin remarked that the shoes had outlived their normal span, there was nothing left in them any more but he couldn't care less. He had to set the model for succeeding generations of Muslims, who of course, ignored him and began to nurture the taste for luxury and pleasure.

 

When he became caliph, he disappointed his aides who looked around and found a suitable palace for him to move into. He turned down their request and continued to live in his shack.  It is reported the palace was painted white.

 

If we take Imam Ali's life as a model for Islam, none of those stately shenanigans that world leaders, including Muslim leaders, love to indulge in, are permitted!

 

Note: In paragraph IV, I said "suitable palace" not "suitable place". 

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when my father returned back from overseas after a long trip, I met him at Sydney Airport and kissed him on the hand and face and hugged him and then these Australians looked at me thinking I was with my Gay partner or something...........looooooooool.

 

very hard to find out who is gay in the middle east. Men congregate with each other all the time, kiss each other on the cheeks, even grab each others elbows/hands lol. 

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Australians looked at me thinking I was with my Gay partner or something.

 

Until some time back, I was very fond of little children. Just loved them.

 

Now after all the talk on paedophiles in the last few years,  I have stopped paying any attention to children, just in case the parents became worried what my intentions were. 

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Until some time back, I was very fond of little children. Just loved them.

 

 

Now after all the talk on paedophiles in the last few years,  I have stopped paying any attention to children, just in case the parents became worried what my intentions were. 

 

 

I was shopping once with my youngest son in the stroller.

He is a very cute gorgeous boy, hazel green eyes and sandy blonde hair.

 

an old man stopped and looked at my son and said what a beautiful boy and tried to pat his head.

I pushed the stroller kept going and just said 'thanks' on my way.

 

this day and age can't trust anyone lol.

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If we take Imam Ali's life as a model for Islam, none of those stately shenanigans that world leaders, including Muslim leaders, love to indulge in, are permitted!

 

Some more anecdotes from the life of Imam Ali:-

 

1. Imam Ali had an older brother Aqeel. Aqeel was much older than Imam Ali. Aqeel had several children and had fallen on hard times. During the time that Imam Ali was at the helm, Aqeel approached Imam Ali for some help from the Treasury.

 

Aqeel invited Imam Ali to a small meal. Imam Ali asked his brother how he could meet the expense of the dinner if he was so poor. Aqeel replied that he had been putting away small coins for some time so that he could have his brother over for a meal. Imam Ali replied that if Aqeel could save money, it was obvious that his pension from the Treasury was more than his needs.

 

Aqeel asked the Imam for some help from the Treasury. Imam Ali stood up and asked Aqeel to come with him. He then took Aqeel to the market place and asked him to get into any shop and take what he wanted. Aqeel was naturally surprised and said "do you want me to steal".

 

The Imam replied "Well, when you asked me for help from the Treasury, were you also not asking me to steal?

 

Aqeel realized his brother's high ideals and called off his request.

 

2.  The battle of Siffeen was raging and Imam Ali was himself going into sallies in attack on the enemy. In one break when he returned to camp, someone came up to him with a bowl of cold refreshments.

 

The Imam told him "Do you not see all those injured people out there. Do you expect me to comfort myself when all those people are in such pain and discomfort. Take the drinks to them.

 

 The man replied "But sir, they are our enemies.

 

The noble Imam turned to him and said "Enemies they may be but they are human beings first. Take those refreshments to them".

 

3. Once Imam Ali was passing through town with some aides and he saw a beggar asking for money. The Imam turned to his aides in surprise. "Why should this man be begging? Is there not enough in the Treasury to provide for him"?

 

"But sir, this man is a Christian", one of his aides said.

 

The Imam turned to his aide "When this man was young, you made him work and now you find an excuse to turn him away. Go and provide for his needs immediately from the Treasury".

 

4. Imam Ali was leading the dawn prayer when the assassin's sword struck.

 

While he lay writhing in pain and bleeding, his aides caught the assassin, tied him in rope and brought him to the Imam. The Imam noted that the rope was cutting into the man's skin and asked his men to loosen the rope.

 

Then he asked his assassin "Was I a bad Imam to you"? The man was dumb-founded.

 

Someone then brought the Imam a cool drink.

 

He immediately ordered that a similar bowl should be brought immediately for his killer.

 

5. One day he was going out of town and met a Jew who wanted to strike a conversation. The Imam talked with him answering his questions until it was time for them to break up. At that junction, the two had to take different routes.  

 

But instead of parting company from the man, the Imam accompanied the Jew for a while. The man noted that he was on a different road. He was not on the road that he should have been to get to his destination.

 

The Imam replied that he knew that. He just wanted to say good-bye respectfully and so decided to accompany the man for a distance before returning to the junction to resume his own journey.

 

6. Professor Reynold reports that when the Imam was assassinated, the Jewish and Christian women and children mourned him as one does for one's own father.

 

7. As the Lebanese-American Christian writer Khalil Gibran, says,

 

"He was like a prophet sent to a nation other than his own, in an era to which he did not belong."

Edited by IloveImamHussain
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... I bought straps in a dollar store to wrap around my luggage to make it easier to spot in an airport. Someone approved of my "rainbow bands" statement on my luggage and those straps never went on my luggage again.

 

I'm sorry to break it to you, but it may be too late; you could very well have turned your luggage gay.

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Do you not realise that in the OT we find laws that we Christians consider being cancelled? Or are they in the Islam/Christianity-mixed church still valid?

 

Not all Christians believe that...

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This is the point of view of the Apostle Paul:

 

Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error" (NASB).

 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" (NASB). 

 

In the Old Testament, it is clear that homosexual sex is an abomination in God's eyes. Leviticus 18:22 states: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" (NASB).

 

Don't let liberal "Christians" tell you otherwise. Homosexual activity is clearly forbidden in Scripture.

Edited by ChristianVisitor
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