What Do Our Christian Members Say About Gays

[Ali-F]

Peace.

 

 

I have a question to our christian friends. It is: What do you say about gays? Do you support it? If no, why? And vice versa.

 

Thx :)

[Makina]

Salam!

 

I used to be Christian and my Parents and family still are. Noone living a religious life may it be Christian or Islamic can truely support Homosexuality. Allah swt created each Species  in two halfs Male and Female  to become one whole beeing and have Children. 

 

ws Salima

[andres]

The more we understand that whatever sexuality we posess is something we were born with, the more will homosexuals be accepted as citizens on the same terms as hetero sexuals.

[Sumerian]

^^^ Are you serious?

[andres]

I am Cristian and I am serious. It is clearly so that Paul, like orher Jews 2.000 years condemned this so if you trust Paul and believe that every opinion he has is valid eternaly, of course you do not agree with me. So in Sweden today, Christians (and Muslims) differ on this issue.

[Fatima Hussain]

Salam!

 

I used to be Christian and my Parents and family still are. Noone living a religious life may it be Christian or Islamic can truely support Homosexuality. Allah swt created each Species  in two halfs Male and Female  to become one whole beeing and have Children. 

 

ws Salima

 

Playing devil's advocate here, but if the point of male and female is just to have children, what about infertile couples or older couples?  Should they refrain from having sex?  That line of thinking does not seem logical, so the reason for the prohibition in engaging in homosexual acts could be something else.

[Thaqalyn]

I am Cristian and I am serious. It is clearly so that Paul, like orher Jews 2.000 years condemned this so if you trust Paul and believe that every opinion he has is valid eternaly, of course you do not agree with me. So in Sweden today, Christians (and Muslims) differ on this issue.

 

You've read your Bible right?

 

'God' said: 'Do not lie with a man as you would with a woman. That is detestable' Leviticus 18:22. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states that, “homosexual offenders,” will not enter the kingdom of God. God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis chapter 19 for committing homosexual atrocities.

 

Even a book corrupted as the Bible shows that Allah/God views homosexuality as an abominable act, so do be careful when you say things just to fit in with society.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Thaqalyn

[Son of Placid]

You've read your Bible right?

 

'God' said: 'Do not lie with a man as you would with a woman. That is detestable' Leviticus 18:22. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states that, “homosexual offenders,” will not enter the kingdom of God. God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis chapter 19 for committing homosexual atrocities.

 

Even a book corrupted as the Bible shows that Allah/God views homosexuality as an abominable act, so do be careful when you say things just to fit in with society.

If this bible you speak of is so corrupted, how do you know this is not one of the corruptions?

[Lordofgemini]

Maybe because it doesn't contradict with Gods Msg.

[andres]

You've read your Bible right?

As I said just before I do not agree with what Paul wrote about homosexuality to the Corintians 2.000 years ago. God never wrote letters. He gave us an intellect and a conscience. Jesus told us to love our neighbour as ourselves. This tell me I shall not condemn homosexuals. God created them too.

[Son of Placid]

Long story and years ago now, I had a drunken man standing in my garage with the big door open, (making it an amphitheatre for the neighbours) announce he was married to a man and knew there must be something wrong with that. Far as I was concerned there was...That is not how I like to wake up my neighbours.

 

Wonder if he ever figured it out or just stayed in denial. Either way it weirded me out.  I've had to encounter the same "couple" on other occasions and, (in short) things were normal.

I don't understand it and have no intentions of warming up to it nor promoting it. I bought straps in a dollar store to wrap around my luggage to make it easier to spot in an airport. Someone approved of my "rainbow bands" statement on my luggage and those straps never went on my luggage again.

That does not make me homophobic, nor intolerant.

 

The new social agenda, (Facebook, etc) is enforcing a Love/peace/tolerance movement.  Sounds nice on the surface, but anyone found outside the ever evolving standards is labelled, rejected, hated, etc. Oh yeah it's a lovely movement in the direction of hell.

 

Homosexuality is just one on a list of things Paul said will not be in heaven. I tend to avoid the full list.

 

That doesn't contradict with "God's Msg" either ;)

[andres]

Homosexuality is just one on a list of things Paul said will not be in heaven. I tend to avoid the full list.

There are many types of sexuality, but I can not imagine any of them be needed in heaven.

[baqar]

Homosexuality is just one on a list of things Paul said will not be in heaven.

 

Homosexuality is definitely a hugely major sin in Islam.  My understanding is that it also is in Judaism. And I seriously doubt if it would not be in Christianity.

 

Just because Pope Francis is soft on gays -"Who am I to judge",  does not mean that he sees homosexualityas a "no event" not worthy of bothering about.

 

While I am obviously no expert on Christianity, I seriously believe it is a major major sin in Christianity too.

The more we understand that whatever sexuality we posess is something we were born with, the more will homosexuals be accepted as citizens on the same terms as hetero sexuals.

 

Acceptance by man is not the same as acceptance by God.

[Ali-F]

If this bible you speak of is so corrupted, how do you know this is not one of the corruptions?

 

He does not believe in the Bible, but he gives proofs from your book, which you see as correct. This is a normal argument.

[andres]

Acceptance by man is not the same as acceptance by God.

True. What the meaning of creating homosexuals is I do not undetstand, but it is my conviction that God is a God of love, and of course people of the same gender also can love each other.

[Son of Placid]

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Doesn't matter how major, or justified minor the world considers it, it's on the list.

He does not believe in the Bible, but he gives proofs from your book, which you see as correct. This is a normal argument.

Not only am I very aware of this, but am guilty of using it myself.

 

I'm always curious as to how corrupt people consider the Bible to be and if they have any better proofs yet.

[andres]

Doesn't matter how major, or justified minor the world considers it, it's on the list.

I know, but it is Pauls list, and as you maybe know, he was but a man and not always right.

[Ali-F]

 

Not only am I very aware of this, but am guilty of using it myself.

 

I'm always curious as to how corrupt people consider the Bible to be and if they have any better proofs yet.

 

Who are these corrupt people? I would like to hear who they're.

[baqar]

Even a book corrupted as the Bible shows that Allah/God views homosexuality as an abominable act, so do be careful when you say things just to fit in with society.

 

I think it is extremely rude to keep referring to the Bible as corrupt. How would you feel if you were a Christian?

 

Besides, a claim must be supported by scholarship. Most of those who make that charge base their charge on hearsay and patchy information.

 

In any case, Islam also has its share of corrupted scriptures, as is well-known about some of our Hadeeth books.

 

If we want polite discussion in the form of inter-faith dialog, we need to speak to people with respect and consideration for the feelings of others.

Isam expects us to treat all human beings in a manner that is commensurate with its high ideals of humanity.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(BISMILLAH)

 

(Salam)

 

 

As I said just before I do not agree with what Paul wrote about homosexuality to the Corintians 2.000 years ago. God never wrote letters. He gave us an intellect and a conscience. Jesus told us to love our neighbour as ourselves. This tell me I shall not condemn homosexuals. God created them too.

 

While I'd argue over some of the proofs presented by fellow Muslims here - mostly, on the soundness of the argument and not necessarily their stance on the issue - your argument is also quite shaky. Love my neighbour as I love myself? What about Hitler's neighbour? You may say Hitler had a choice in what he did. Fine, what about those who, at least if you believe what they say, argue that they have a pathological need to kill, the psychopaths and the pedophiles and what not? If our sexual preferences really aren't our own choice, why is there such a tumult in society over Christian priests and their...unspeakable acts? Surely, they were born with the desire. Oh, and what of the fact that one of them is someone's neighbour? Did God not create these people?

[placid]

Those who say the Bible is corrupted have not given any examples of what these corruptions are, --- but have only heard it from others.
If you were a lawyer, would you go to court if you had not first read the Books of Law? --- God has not changed, nor have His laws on morality. --- People can repent of their sin, and live righteously before God, but those who choose a life of sin are unrighteous.

In the ‘laws to live by’ that were given to Moses it condemns homosexuality, as has been mentioned before, --- Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because there were no righteous people there except Lot’s family. Genesis 18:
23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it?
26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
--- Abraham kept asking if a lesser amount were there until this verse:
32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”

In Sodom Lot and his wife had two daughters at home with them and it says in 19:
12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place!
13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”

--- If the other sons-in-law and daughters were believers, but did not heed the warning, that was their choice. --- Even Lot’s wife perished.
--- (Somebody said some years ago that ‘AIDS’ may have already started in the two cities and could have become the destruction of the people, so God removed the blight with the unrighteous.)
--- Somebody always asks, “What about the innocent children?” --- Basically there are no children from homosexual relationships, but if there were some, God takes care of children who die an untimely death. --- God is just and merciful.

The conclusion is that there were no righteous there among the homosexuals and God’s Laws have not changed concerning morality.
People are born male and female and as was determined years ago, “Homosexuality is a ‘learned’ experience.”

 

--- However, in the new morality it is promoted and taught so it is becoming the ‘new norm’ for the unrighteous.
And people can easily find out which camp they are in. --- Either they believe God’s word, that homosexuality is a sin, --- or they are part of the sinful society that accepts it and promotes it.

[Son of Placid]

Who are these corrupt people? I would like to hear who they're.

Let me rephrase

 

I'm always curious as to how corrupt the Bible is considered to be by people who have no clue.

[placid]

To continue in the NT with what it says about homosexuality:

There was a Christian Church in Rome and even some members of Caesar’s household were said to be Christians, there were perhaps many that travelled from Jerusalem to Rome or from Churches in Asia Minor to the Church in Rome.
The Church may have been started by Jews from Rome who were in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-12

Peter and Mark had gone to Rome in the 50’s and were ministering there.
The Romans were very ungodly, and as dictators they worshiped their leaders as gods, and indulged in all kinds of sensual pleasure and idolatry, so it was a city that needed the teaching of righteousness. --- Rome dominated the world at that time so they were all kinds of lawlessness and injustices to address.
Paul wrote a letter to the Christians in Rome to encourage them, and Paul was later sent as a prisoner to Rome to appear before Caesar, but was only kept under ‘house arrest.’ --- He and Luke joined Peter and Mark in the work there among the other believers. --- It was not a safe place to be, as the Christians were persecuted there as well as in Jerusalem.

So this letter addresses the domination of sin in the lives of those who glorify men and idols rather than God. This is what it says in Romans 1:
12 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature (man) rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Those who continue in sin become progressively more involved, and God gives them up to their own devices. --- But after the mention of, --- burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful,’ --- it says, ‘God gave them over to a debased mind.’

--- The earth was also full of wickedness in the days of Noah before God destroyed them in the flood. It says in Genesis 6:
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
--- (And the world is progressing again towards this rejection of God, in favor of greed and sensual pleasure, is it not?)

 

Placid

[andres]

(BISMILLAH)

(Salam)

ove my neighbour as I love myself? What about Hitler's neighbour? You may say Hitler had a choice in what he did. Fine, what about those who, at least if you believe what they say, argue that they have a pathological need to kill, the psychopaths and the pedophiles and what not? If our sexual preferences really aren't our own choice, why is there such a tumult in society over Christian priests and their...unspeakable acts? Surely, they were born with the desire. Oh, and what of the fact that one of them is someone's neighbour? Did God not create these people?

Love thy neighbour also means treat him with care. If you kill, rape or robb him this is not to treat him with care.

[andres]

--- God has not changed, nor have His laws on morality. ---

Do you not realise that in the OT we find laws that we Christians consider being cancelled? Or are they in the Islam/Christianity-mixed church still valid?

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

Love thy neighbour also means treat him with care. If you kill, rape or robb him this is not to treat him with care.

 

So, your whole argument is based precisely on the fact that you should love everyone, unless he is a murderer or rapist or robber. Why? 'Cause those are bad things. Huh. Homosexuality is bad, quite clearly, according to the Bible but, there, you choose to ignore your own law. Contradictory, wouldn't you say?

 

Now, according to you, sexual preference is what we were born with. If I were to take a strictly textual approach, Paul is one of the major authorities in Christianity and, so, if you want to make an exception in this regard, first, you'd have to bring solid proof that this is something you can make an exception about. Even if I was a Christian, I'd have to ask you that. You can't just depart from your canonical texts witout a very, very good reason. Since you've said you don't believe Paul in this regard, may I ask why? Second, doesn't that put everything Paul has said into question? Surely, if you choose to disregard his opinion on this matter, at the very least, you have to accept that everything in the Bible - or, at least, the chapters authored by Paul - is not immaculate and, thus, can be questioned. (Personally, in the overall scheme of things, I like this much, much more than just changing your opinion on homosexuality. It allows me, as a Muslim, to question fundamental beliefs of Christianity).

 

Taking a less textual approach, since you argue sexual preference to be something that you can't chose, then, surely pedophiles are also good people; they were just born with a "disease", no? As such, if you find one, what do you do? Well, you try and send him to therapy, to allow him to change into something that is considered more "normal", no? Why can't the same be done for homosexuals? Now, one may argue that a pedophile would technically still be worse than a homosexual (oh, but wait, how do you know being a pedophile is a bad thing, if not from your religion? Why the cherry picking, then?) because the other partner is too young to consent. OK, but you don't really believe that as soon as a person hits 18, some magical transformation happens and they are able to make all the big decisions and before that, they are tiny fools, still wrapped in nappies? So, what if a 16 year old, who is able enough to make those choices, chooses to have relations with what you'd consider a pedophile? Why do you insist on calling that statutory rape? (This, by the way, could lead to an interesting discussion on the problems many non-Muslims have with the Prophet's marriage to Aisha.) I could make relatively informed and logical decisions since I was 13-14. Sure, I lacked experience and see things very differently now as compared to then but, as far as intellectual capacity alone is concerned, I don't think there's been too much of a difference. You could say that experience is also an essential but I'll see things differently in 20 years time as opposed to the way I see them now and, going by that logic, you're never old enough. So, why're "pedophiles" and statutory rapists bad when they have relations with the consent of the other party but a homosexual good when both have desires that are not their choice and both have consent from the other party.

 

Oh, but we haven't even got to the best part: the psychopaths! Now, they kill!

 

 

So much worse than either of those mentioned above. And, really, what's so bad about killing - well, apart from the fact that it is forbidden by God but since you don't seem to care much about that, meh...I mean, wild animals kill other species all the time. I mean, Jesus also did eat meat so he didn't find a problem with killing goats and sheep, did he? But, you might say, we are intellectually superior creatures and, at the least, shouldn't kill other humans, who are our equals. Well, if you know, there are many animals who have fights and contests to get the best mate and, often, one dies. Maybe you propose locking the goats up when they are trying to woo goate fatale (hey, I just created a new word! Yaaaay!) by going head to head? What's so different between the goat killing the other goat so it gets the best mate - which is essentially just him fulfilling a desire, the need for sexual relations - and the psychopath killing another human, trying to fulfill another desire, albeit, just one that is more directly related to the result (killing)? Why do you throw one into a mental institution and therapy, trying to correct him when you call it the other's nature? The only difference is God commanded you not to kill another human but you don't care about that! Now, one argument I'll get is, oh, but imagine you being the victim of the psychopath. You wouldn't want that, would you? So, you shouldn't allow it to happen to another. I am sure you can guess my reply. :dry:  If you can't, well, a lot of those who support LBGT movements are, often, also committed to other movements, like the green revolution and animal rights. I mean, I've seen some really extreme stuff being campaigned for. You would probably never eat meat, if they got their way - oh, as a byproduct, you may have to find some way of not believing the last supper (you know, just the same way you don't believe everything Paul said) so I suggest you better get to work on that - and would be treated as a criminal for even thinking about killing cattle. Cannibalism, they would say! (Oh, since I rarely get to go off on such rants, can I, please, please, please, also add the story about how, in the Netherlands, under the name of animals rights, animals are supposed to be stunned before slaughter, which would present a problem for Halal and kosher meat but it's fine to have animal bordellos - guess consent and suffering aren't such a problem anymore.) Ah, sorry, first time I've gone on a rant for a long time, tend to get...distracted. Coming back to the point, the whole argument for the animal rights movement is the same: imagine if it were you? Well, imagine yourself being killed because Tom wanted Lisa as his girlfriend but she was already best mates with you.

 

Now, to the more simpler readers here, am I saying it's fine to kill or that we should imprison goats trying to land goate fatale? Nah, not really. My point is, the whole "they were born with it" argument is really stupid and, even if they were born with it, so were psychopaths and pedophiles. When we can send the last two to therapy and have a changed person - and, actually demand them to change - I am sure we can do the same with homosexuals. Whether or not they are born with it is quite a moot point, really, if you follow my argument to the letter. Personally, I think we are blank slates; we are not born with anything. Everything we do is learnt.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Khadim uz Zahra

[Khadim uz Zahra]

I must make a correction. It seems Jesus did not eat meat - or, at least, there is no record of such a thing - at the Last Supper but he did eat fish and, as many Christian argue, also had lamb at the Passover meal.

[andres]

Hi Khadim

A newborn child baby knows instinctively where milk is to be found. It is not something that mothers teaches us. All creatures are born with instincts. I think you will have problems to find scientists that denies this fact.

It is generally believed that our sexual orientation is formed very early in life and that genetics play a great role. If our sexuality is learned, it seeens natural it could be changed by learning. So if you are hetero, you could become homo by learning? You could also learn to become pedophile? Do you honestly think you by therapy could learn to enjoy a sexual relationship that today fills you with disgust? I don't. Actually I feel very, very certain about this.

Paul became a Christian, and he had his own personal opinions. Early christians did not agree on everything, but to say that one disagreement with Paul, means a total disagreement make no sense. Being a Christian to me does not mean accepting everything Paul says without questing my own conscience. And intellect. Moral codex change, probably out of necessity. This is very clear in the Bible, where it is obvious that the oldest parts describe a distant time with some laws that most of us find morally wrong today. But society was very different. They had not the knowledge we have today and that has had great influence on our thinking and way of life.

I believe we must consider that the Bible was written in societies very different from ours. God did not write it himself, humans from a distant time did and we must try to adapt it to our time.

[Son of Placid]

Just a guy, became a Christian, formed an opinion, decided some stuff, told everybody.

I believe there's a little more to Paul than that.

[Makina]

Playing devil's advocate here, but if the point of male and female is just to have children, what about infertile couples or older couples?  Should they refrain from having sex?  That line of thinking does not seem logical, so the reason for the prohibition in engaging in homosexual acts could be something else.

 

Salam!

 

I didn´t say that Men and Women are just there to have children! I am simply saying that Allah swt made us in Pairs to have children if possible otherwise We wouldn´t be here. If my Parents were Homosexual I nor my 6 brothers and Sisters wouldn´t be here. And Mankind would Die out quite fast. So just on the Religious Side of things Homosexuality is not meant to be. My Christian Parents say Gay is not normal  and so do I as a Muslim Woman. Wich is my answer to the Qustion.

 

ws Salima

[andres]

Just a guy, became a Christian, formed an opinion, decided some stuff, told everybody.

I believe there's a little more to Paul than that.

I guess this was aimed at me, but I do not recognise this as my picture of Paul. I just do not believe one has to agree with all of his personal opinions. Or is that what you demand from a Christian?

[andres]

Salam!

.......If my Parents were Homosexual I nor my 6 brothers and Sisters wouldn´t be here. And Mankind would Die out quite fast. So just on the Religious Side of things Homosexuality is not meant to be. My Christian Parents say Gay is not normal and so do I as a Muslim Woman. Wich is my answer to the Qustion.

ws Salima

Did you never consider that in spite of 5% of the human population throughout history being homo, we are now 6.000.000.000 humans. Is this not enough?

Being homo is not always easy and many of them dare not admit they are, but if a same gender couple live together like man and wife, this does no harm to others, and the best we can do is to accept them as they are.

[Agora]

Salam!

And Mankind would Die out quite fast.

Wa alaikum asalaam.

This is not true. Right now, the world is facing a huge overpopulation problem. We are not sustainable as it is. Add to that, children are being born left right and center in the developing world. From a purely secular humanist perspective, we could sure use a few more homos right about now.

[baqar]

From a purely secular humanist perspective, we could sure use a few more homos right about now.

 

From a purely humanist perspective, we would be better off using a few more contraceptives. There are heaps available in pharmacies and other stores. 

[Agora]

From a purely humanist perspective, we would be better off using a few more contraceptives. There are heaps available in pharmacies and other stores.

You spectacularly missed my point. I was not advocating homosexuality; I was pointing out how the other poster was wrong.

Plus, hormonal contraceptives as expensive and cause health concerns. (I work in a Pharmacy). So, ignoring Islams moral code, from a purely secular humanist standpoint, homos are better.

Obviously, an Islamic perspective says otherwise. Just pointing out the other views that are out there.