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Thaqalyn

The Sunnah Of Cursing Imam Ali From The Pulpits

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم 


 

Now, it is well known among us that Imam Ali (as) was cursed from the pulpits during the Umawi period (period of Bani Umayyah), but has become something that our Sunni brothers staunchly deny. Let us look at the authentic narrations to see where the truth is.

 

In 'Silsilat al Ahadith al Sahiha' volume 7, page 996, hadith number 3332, let us see what we read,

 

Abi Abdillah narrates, 'Um Salama said to me, "Is the Prophet being cursed from the pulpits?!", I said "Subhan Allah, what makes you say that the Prophet is being cursed from the pulpits?", and she said to me "Is Ali ibn Abi Talib and the ones who love him [his Shia] not being cursed from the pulpits? The Prophet himself loved him." (Graded Sahih by Allamah al Albani).

 

As we can see, Um Salamah, mother of the believers, testifies in a sahih hadith that Amir al Mu'mineen (as) was being cursed from the pulpits.

 

Also, in 'Musnad Ahmed ibn Hanbal' volume 3, page 185, we find the narration,

 

Abdillah al Mazini narrates, "When Muawiyah left Kufa, he employed Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, who hired speakers to curse Ali"

 

(Graded hasan by Sho'aib al Arna'ut)

 

Here, we not only have found that Imam Ali (as) was being cursed, but people were actually being employed to curse him, which correlates with the fact that Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan al hired people to fabricate ahadith, which have ended up in the books of our brothers.

 

Additionally, in 'Fadha'il al Sahaba' by Ahmed ibn Hanbal, we read the narration,

 

Abdul Rahman ibn Akhnas narrates, 'Al Mughirah ibn Shu'bah gave a sermon, and then cursed Ali ibn Abi Talib'

 

(The investigator grades the narration Sahih)

 

This narration also shows us that is was becoming a Sunnah to curse Amir al Mu'mineen (as) from the pulpits, but it's not true apparently.

 

In 'Masa'il Imam Ahmed', volume 3 page 176, the narration is found, 

 

Umair ibn Ishaq narrates, "Marwan was our Amir for six years, and would curse Ali ibn Abi Talib every friday, later on he removed, then we had Sa'eed ibn  al Aas was hired for two years and the cursing stopped, then Marwan was later brought back, and Marwan continued the tradition"

 

(The investigator grades the narration Sahih)

 

Here, we see a case where Marwan was cursing Imam Ali (as) for years, every friday, and even when he was brought back he continued to curse.

 

Though there is more, let's just stop there and see the opinions of their grand scholars, 

 

In al Bidayah wa al Nihaya by Ibn Katheer, volume 8 page 184, Ibn Katheer (who wrote the famous 'Tafsir ibn Kathir') says about this,

 

When Marwan was governor of Muawiyah in the city, he would curse Ali every Jum'ah from the pulpits.

 

Here, we see the writer of the most famous Sunni Tafsir admits that the people Muawiyah hired would curse Imam Ali (as)

 

Al Qurtubi, another famous scholar of Ahlul Sunnah, says in his book 'al Mufhim lima Ushkila min talkhees kitab Muslim', volume 1, page 232, he says,

 

And as for Marwan, and the rest of Bani Ummayah, they would give sermons cursing Ali ibn Abi Talib, and people would here it, so they prayed with them but would leave during the sermon, and when Marwan saw this he and the rest of Bani Umayyah started to give sermons before the prayers, to force people to here this.

 

Is commentary needed here? The issue is clear- they hated Amir al Mu'mineen (as) so much they changed the timings so people could here the cursing of him.

 

Are we done yet? No, In fact, the writer of the greatest Sharh of Sahih Bukhari, that is Fathul Bari also has this opinion. Ibn Hajar al Asqalani says, on volume 8 page 71

 

And after what happened with Ali, a group of people fought him, and then they got fiercer and began cursing him and sending la'nah on him from the pulpits as a sunnah.

 

Didn't Ali (as) love Abu Bakr and Umar wholeheartedly? Weren't Jamal  and Siffeen just a political dispute? What brought about the hate for Imam Ali (as) ? I thought this rosy picture that was painted is real? Even the scholars of the sunnah admit it, Imam Ali (as) was cursed from the pulpits of Bani Umayyah, and it is an issue reported by so many sahih chains it cannot be denied, and I would like to ask a question to our brothers: Why did they hate Ali ibn Abi Talib (as)? Anyway, insha Allah it increases Imam Ali's (as) reward, 

 

In the next thread we'll look at what Bani Umayyah would do to children with the name of 'Ali', 'Hassan', or 'Hussain'

(wasalam)

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Stay on topic please brothers. I've been in too many threads where the topic changes completely due to one reason or another and I must admit I have done it myself, and it taks you away from the discussion. 

 

My question to Ahlul Sunnah is simple: Why did Bani Umayyah have such an intense hate for Imam Ali (as) ? 

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Why are you so obsessed with Yasser al-Habib? You never stop talking about him. Is he all you think about all day everyday?

 

Some of us can't stand it when enemies of the ahlulbayt a.s ruin the Madhab.

 

 

Brother  Thaqalayn, great post!

 

What do sunni's say on their website about this? Like how do they defend the Bani Umayyah because they literally have to.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 

So would you argue that Yasser Habib follows the Sunna of Moaviya. Certainly seems like it to me

 

Some of us can't stand it when enemies of the ahlulbayt a.s ruin the Madhab.

 

Though I don't support Yasir Al-Habib or think he follows a correct approach, to say it's the Sunnah of only Mu'awiyya is wrong. Don't forget the Hasan Hadith from Al-Kafi where at the death of Uthman, and transferal of the seat of Khilafa (only the seat because he held the Khilafa all along) to Amir Al-Mu'minin (as), he gets in the Mimbar of Rasul Allah and compared Uthman to the oppressors of the bygone eras, such as Fir'awn and Haman, and declared Allah destroyed them and Allah killed him.

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، ويعقوب السراج، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) أن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) لما بويع بعد مقتل عثمان صعد المنبر فقال: الحمد لله الذي علا فاستعلى ودنا فتعالى وارتفع فوق كل منظر وأشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وحده لا شريك له وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله خاتم النبيين وحجة الله على العالمين مصدقا للرسل الأولين وكان بالمؤمنين رؤوفا رحيما فصلى الله وملائكته عليه وعلى آله. أما بعد أيها الناس فإن البغي يقود أصحابه إلى النار وإن أول من بغى على الله جل ذكره عناق بنت آدم وأول قتيل قتله الله عناق وكان مجلسها جريبا [من الأرض] في جريب وكان لها عشرون إصبعا في كل إصبع ظفران مثل المنجلين فسلط الله عز وجل عليها أسدا كالفيل وذئبا كالبعير ونسرا مثل البغل فقتلوها وقد قتل الله الجبابرة على أفضل أحوالهم وآمن ما كانوا وأمات هامان وأهلك فرعون وقد قتل عثمان ، ألا وإن بليتكم قد عادت كهيئتها يوم بعث الله نبيه (صلى الله عليه وآله) والذي بعثه بالحق لتبلبلن بلبلة ولتغربلن غربلة ولتساطن سوطة القدر حتى يعود أسفلكم أعلاكم وأعلاكم أسفلكم وليسبقن سابقون كانوا قصروا وليقصرن سابقون كانوا سبقوا والله ما كتمت وشمة ولا كذبت كذبه ولقد نبئت بهذا المقام وهذا اليوم ألا وإن الخطايا خيل شمس حمل عليها أهلها وخلعت لجمها فتقحمت بهم في النار، ألا وإن التقوى مطايا ذلل حمل عليها أهلها وأعطوا . أزمتها فأوردتهم الجنة وفتحت لهم أبوابها ووجدوا ريحها وطيبها وقيل لهم: " ادخلوها بسلام آمنين "، ألا وقد سبقني إلى هذا الامر من لم أشركه فيه ومن لم أهبه له ومن ليست له منه نوبة إلا بنبي يبعث، ألا ولا نبي بعد محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، أشرف منه على شفا جرف هار فانهار به في نار جهنم. حق وباطل ولكل أهل، فلئن أمر الباطل لقديما فعل ولئن قل الحق فلربما ولعل ولقلما أدبر شئ فأقبل ولئن رد عليكم أمركم أنكم سعداء وما علي إلا الجهد وإني لأخشى أن تكونوا على فترة ملتم عني ميلة كنتم فيها عندي غير محمودي الرأي ولو أشاء لقلت: عفا الله عما سلف، سبق فيه الرجلان وقام الثالث كالغراب همه بطنه، ويله لو قص جناحاه وقطع رأسه كان خيرا له، شغل عن الجنة والنار أمامه، ثلاثة واثنان خمسة ليس لهم سادس: ملك يطير بجناحيه ونبي أخذ الله بضبعيه وساع مجتهد وطالب يرجوا ومقصر في النار، اليمين والشمال مضلة والطريق الوسطى هي الجادة عليها يأتي الكتاب وآثار النبوة، هلك من ادعى وخاب من افترى إن الله أدب هذه الأمة بالسيف والسوط وليس لاحد عند الامام فيهما هوادة فاستتروا في بيوتكم وأصلحوا ذات بينكم والتوبة من ورائكم، من أبدى صفحته للحق هلك

 

Kitab Al-Kafi volume 8 page 67

 

Allama Majlisi declares it Hasan (good) in Mir'at Al-Uqul volume 25 page 151

 

Note: Allama Majlisi says that Haman is actually referring to Umar, and Fir'awn to Abu Bakr (page 152 volume 25).

 

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying what Yasir is doing is correct, nor am I saying I believe in that method, however, I am saying that saying that what he is doing is the Sunnah of Mu'awiyya is incorrect because it is evident that Imam Ali also went on the Mimbar and condemned the oppressors when he was able to. In case someone quotes a narration where Imam Ali seeks refuge from the accusation of killing Uthman, this narration is not saying that, it's saying Imam Ali is glorifying Allah for taking him down.

 

And I apologize to Br. Thaqalayn for posting something irrelevant to the topic, and will not continue.

 

And God knows best.

 

والسلام

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^

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

I was aware our Imams a.s spoke out against opressors when it was right, for instance the sermon in Najul Balagah where he speaks about the first two.

 

Yassier also doesn't simply talk about opression, he uses gross sexual anecdotes, accuses people of homosexuality, and so on.

 

Brother Thaqlayn, did Muawiyah/bani ummayah order the cursing of Imam Ali a.s , or did they also order the invention of false things acribed to Ali a.s?

 

If it was both, then Yassir is indeed following the Sunnah of Muawiyah

Edited by Logical Islamic

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Yassier also doesn't simply talk about opression, he uses gross sexual anecdotes, accuses people of homosexuality, and so on.

 

 

I'm sure almost everyone disagrees with him in that regard

 

 

 

Brother Thaqlayn, did Muawiyah/bani ummayah order the cursing of Imam Ali a.s , or did they also order the invention of false things acribed to Ali a.s?

 

 

Yes, but that has no relation to Yasir Habib. Since brother Ibn al Ja'abi took a narration graded trustworthy by Majlisi from al Kafi, I don't think Amir al Mu'mineen insulted with foul language but he most definitely spoke about harsh realities and did la'nah- therefore that isn't from Muawiyah, but as for insulting with filthy language... that definitely isn't from Imam Ali (as) but I'm not sure if it was from Muawiyah as I haven't seen such narrations- I think it is just something that Yasir Habib instigated himself but is most definitely wrong no matter where it came from.

 

wa Allahu A'lam

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Condemning people and highlighting where they went wrong is very different from the vile and disgusting things spewing from Yassir Habibs mouth. Fabrications are MOaviyas Sunnah.


I'm sure almost everyone disagrees with him in that regard

 

 

 I find your comments about 'disagreement' a bit mealy mouthed. Since when have the followers of the Ahlul Bait become so compromising between truth and falsehood

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Please brother, stay focused on the topic- if you want to start another thread about Yasir Habib go ahead but here we're talking about Bani Umayyah's hatred for Imam Ali (as)

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Please brother, stay focused on the topic- if you want to start another thread about Yasir Habib go ahead but here we're talking about Bani Umayyah's hatred for Imam Ali (as)

 

The point I am making is in order for anyone to sit in judgement of Bani Ummayah first one must disassociate oneself from the Sunnah of Moaviya. Do it in a clear unequivocal manner and condemn this cancer. Cut this cancer from your body and then ask the question. As long as you give shelter to followers of Moaviyas Sunna you have no right to pose the question      

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So would you argue that Yasser Habib follows the Sunna of Moaviya. Certainly seems like it to me

 

JazakAllah khair.....may Allah [swt] reward you for saying this though you got to it before I could. 

 

When you confront some Shia brothers as to why they curse the Sahaba [ra], they say, "well Muawiyah used to curse Imam Ali".  I tell them, "assuming what you are saying is 100% true, are you following Imam Ali [ra] or Muawiyah [ra]?"

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JazakAllah khair.....may Allah [swt] reward you for saying this though you got to it before I could. 

 

When you confront some Shia brothers as to why they curse the Sahaba [ra], they say, "well Muawiyah used to curse Imam Ali".  I tell them, "assuming what you are saying is 100% true, are you following Imam Ali [ra] or Muawiyah [ra]?"

We have hadiths of Ahlulbayt cursing their enemies.

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We have hadiths of Ahlulbayt cursing their enemies.

 

You should not confuse how the Ahlul Bait cursed with how Moaviya cursed and use this to justify the vile hatred spewing forth from Yasser Habib's sewer like mind .

 

If and when the Ahlul  Bait cursed it was based on truth and honour. Can you see truth and honour in Moaviya's and Yasser Habibs rantings.

 

We arent school boys any more where we giggle at school boy vileness .

 

If a man struggles to turn his back on lies and vileness   because he hates the person being lied upon then that man cannot be a lover of the Ahlul Bait.

 

Ahlul Bait is with the truth and truth is with the Ahlul Bait. If you turn a blind eye to lie you are already seperate from the Ahlul Bait  

Edited by A true Sunni

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It is the Sunnah of Ahlulbayt to curse their enemies.

Anyway, on the topic, how long was the cursing of Banu Ummayah?

 

All of them did it except Umar ibn abd il Azīz, then Banu Abbãs carried it on with a couple of exceptions. A couple of hundred of years, basically.

 

 

When you confront some Shia brothers as to why they curse the Sahaba [ra], they say, "well Muawiyah used to curse Imam Ali".  I tell them, "assuming what you are saying is 100% true, are you following Imam Ali [ra] or Muawiyah [ra]?"

 

Don't stray from the topic.. can you tell me why your beloved ancestors cursed Imam Ali (as) from the pulpits? What's the justification for that? You see, when you say, I love Marwan, Muwaiyah and so forth you cannot love Ali ibn Abi Talib (as).

 

 

The point I am making is in order for anyone to sit in judgement of Bani Ummayah first one must disassociate oneself from the Sunnah of Moaviya. Do it in a clear unequivocal manner and condemn this cancer. Cut this cancer from your body and then ask the question. As long as you give shelter to followers of Moaviyas Sunna you have no right to pose the question      

 

Is there something wrong with you? I hate the man, I think he is outrageous, I think his insulting is completely wrong, but start another thread about him if you want as it isn't the topic. I think that, if anything, you have the *cancer* because you can't stop talking about him.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Is there something wrong with you? I hate the man, I think he is outrageous, I think his insulting is completely wrong, but start another thread about him if you want as it isn't the topic. I think that, if anything, you have the *cancer* because you can't stop talking about him.

Thank you that is all you had to say about him. Why is you found it so difficult to condemn him till confronted. Once you have the answer to your initial mild 'disagreement' with YH then maybe you will undestand that love of Ahlul Bait and neutraility with YH cannot exist in the same heart.

To say someone has the cancer for wanting to confront the enemies of the Ahlul Bait is shocking. Still now that you have got of the fence I will leave you to it

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

 
In 'Silsilat al Ahadith al Sahiha' volume 7, page 996, hadith number 3332, let us see what we read,
 
Abi Abdillah narrates, 'Um Salama said to me, "Is the Prophet being cursed from the pulpits?!", I said "Subhan Allah, what makes you say that the Prophet is being cursed from the pulpits?", and she said to me "Is Ali ibn Abi Talib and the ones who love him [his Shia] not being cursed from the pulpits? The Prophet himself loved him." (Graded Sahih by Allamah al Albani).
 
 
In 'Masa'il Imam Ahmed', volume 3 page 176, the narration is found, 
 
Umair ibn Ishaq narrates, "Marwan was our Amir for six years, and would curse Ali ibn Abi Talib every friday, later on he removed, then we had Sa'eed ibn  al Aas was hired for two years and the cursing stopped, then Marwan was later brought back, and Marwan continued the tradition"

 

 

 

Don't stray from the topic.. can you tell me why your beloved ancestors cursed Imam Ali (as) from the pulpits? What's the justification for that? You see, when you say, I love Marwan, Muwaiyah and so forth you cannot love Ali ibn Abi Talib (as).

 

 

There was a brother who gave a lecture on the same podium as Sheikh Ahmed Deedat [rah].  Gary Miller, born Christian but converted to Islam, said that when a Christian encounters someone who knows more about his Bible and refutes his "proof", he does not refrain from using the same "proof" against someone else the very next day.  In other words, although something has been made clear to him, he still holds on to it.  Similarly, we see you doing the same with "scholars" like Al-Albani (who had no ijaza nor had any formal training in Islamic sciences).  Yet you choose to use his grading in favor of your arguments and somehow make him more relevant to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah while you conveniently downplay a Shia scholar like Hurr Al-Amili as though he had zero contributions to Shia Islam.

 

Altabari reported:

When Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan put al-Mughairah Ibn Shubah in charge of Kufah in Jumada 41 (September 2- October 30, 661), he summoned him. After praising and glorifying God, he said:

"Now then, indeed a forbearing person has been admonished in the past... The wise might do what you want without instruction. Although I have wanted to advise you about many things, I left them alone, trusting in your discernment of what pleases me, what helps my regime and what sets my subjects [raiyyah] on the right path. I would continue to advise you about a quality of yours- do not refrain from abusing Ali and criticizing him, not from asking God's mercy upon Uthman and His forgiveness for him. Continue to shame the companions of Ali, keep at a distance, and don't listen to them. Praise the faction of Uthman, bring them near, and listen to them."

Sunni reference: History of Tabari, English version, events of year 51 AH, Execution of Hujr Ibn Adi, v18, pp 122-123; also Tarikh Kamil Volume 3 page 234.

 

The Sanad of this is:  Hisham bin Muhammad - Abu Mikhnaf - Mujallid bin Said and Fudayl and Al Husayn Bin Uqbah

As far as Abu Mikhnaf is concerned, according to the scholars of Jarh wa T'adeel, he is not relaible.  Dhahabi said about him, " Abu Mikhnaf, a worthless reporter, not relied upon, Abu Hatim and others abandoned him."

Abu Hatim also said about Abu Mikhnaf, "Abdur Rahman said: 'I heared Yahya Bin Ma'in say, 'Abu Mikhnaf is not trustworthy'. Abdur Rahman also said, 'I heard my father say, "Abu Mikhnaf's narrations are abandoned" ( Kittab Al-Jarh Wa T'adeel V.7 p. 182)

 

Finally, Marwan was not even a Sahabi.  He was 8 years old but never saw the Prophet [saw].  Even Imam Bukhari [rah] attests to this and that is the opinion of the majority of scholars.  The definition of a Sahaba is one who saw the Prophet [saw], accepted Islam and died a Muslim.

In Tabaqat ibn Sa'd, Marwan is included in Volume 5, the book regarding the TABIEEN in Medina.

 

PS - the 'iman of Muawiyah [ra] has been confirmed by the Prophet [saw], Imam Ali [ra] and Imam Hassan [ra].  Why, then, do you choose to hate him?  He should not have been hasty - as is the opinion of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah - in the matter of the murder of Uthman [ra] but even our parents argue and fight.  Do you also pick sides...........love one and disown the other?

 

On this very website, we have people that praise Hassan Allahyari, Yasir al-Habib and Ayatollah Khamenei.  We know the former (two) curse the latter.  Yet they choose to listen to, and take from, the "knowledge" (though I doubt the former two have any) shared by all three.

Edited by muslim720

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There was a brother who gave a lecture on the same podium as Sheikh Ahmed Deedat [rah].  Gary Miller, born Christian but converted to Islam, said that when a Christian encounters someone who knows more about his Bible and refutes his "proof", he does not refrain from using the same "proof" against someone else the very next day.  In other words, although something has been made clear to him, he still holds on to it.  Similarly, we see you doing the same with "scholars" like Al-Albani (who had no ijaza nor had any formal training in Islamic sciences).  Yet you choose to use his grading in favor of your arguments and somehow make him more relevant to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah while you conveniently downplay a Shia scholar like Hurr Al-Amili as though he had zero contributions to Shia Islam.

 

 

Means nothing- you are the first I have come across to attack Albani- all of your salafi pals love him, and which sunnis attacked him?Give me one reference to someone qualified saying he's unqualified- not a blogger sat in his house.

 

 

Altabari reported:

When Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan put al-Mughairah Ibn Shubah in charge of Kufah in Jumada 41 (September 2- October 30, 661), he summoned him. After praising and glorifying God, he said:

"Now then, indeed a forbearing person has been admonished in the past... The wise might do what you want without instruction. Although I have wanted to advise you about many things, I left them alone, trusting in your discernment of what pleases me, what helps my regime and what sets my subjects [raiyyah] on the right path. I would continue to advise you about a quality of yours- do not refrain from abusing Ali and criticizing him, not from asking God's mercy upon Uthman and His forgiveness for him. Continue to shame the companions of Ali, keep at a distance, and don't listen to them. Praise the faction of Uthman, bring them near, and listen to them."

Sunni reference: History of Tabari, English version, events of year 51 AH, Execution of Hujr Ibn Adi, v18, pp 122-123; also Tarikh Kamil Volume 3 page 234.

 

The Sanad of this is:  Hisham bin Muhammad - Abu Mikhnaf - Mujallid bin Said and Fudayl and Al Husayn Bin Uqbah

As far as Abu Mikhnaf is concerned, according to the scholars of Jarh wa T'adeel, he is not relaible.  Dhahabi said about him, " Abu Mikhnaf, a worthless reporter, not relied upon, Abu Hatim and others abandoned him."

 

lol funny how you say a hadith is weak when I never even used it.

 

 

 

Finally, Marwan was not even a Sahabi.  He was 8 years old but never saw the Prophet [saw].  Even Imam Bukhari [rah] attests to this and that is the opinion of the majority of scholars.  The definition of a Sahaba is one who saw the Prophet [saw], accepted Islam and died a Muslim.

In Tabaqat ibn Sa'd, Marwan is included in Volume 5, the book regarding the TABIEEN in Medina.

 

 

lol I never said he was. I am talking about Bani Umayyah

 

 

 

PS - the 'iman of Muawiyah [ra] has been confirmed by the Prophet [saw], Imam Ali [ra] and Imam Hassan [ra].  Why, then, do you choose to hate him?  He should not have been hasty - as is the opinion of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah - in the matter of the murder of Uthman [ra] but even our parents argue and fight.  Do you also pick sides...........love one and disown the other?

 

 

Where? Don't make claims from nothing. The only thing that is found in the Sahihain is Muawiyah ordering people to curse Imam Ali (as) which is found in Sahih Muslim. We chose to 'hate' him because:

 

-He killed thousands of Innocent Muslims supporting Imam Ali in Siffeen

-Cursed Imam Ali (as) and insha Allah I will make a thread to prove that and do refer to sahih Muslim

-Bribed Imam al Hassan's (as) wife to kill him

 

 

 

On this very website, we have people that praise Hassan Allahyari, Yasir al-Habib and Ayatollah Khamenei.  We know the former (two) curse the latter.  Yet they choose to listen to, and take from, the "knowledge" (though I doubt the former two have any) shared by all three.

 

The majority of us hate the first two. Now let me ask you, Uthman Khamis declares takfir on Sunnis who aren't wahabis and Shias left right and centre. Why do you take 'knowledge' from him.

 

 

 

Finally, what do you say about three of your grandest scholars admitting Imam Ali (as) was cursed from the pulpits, you obviously don't know them so let me tell you who they are:

 

Ibn Kathir: wrote the most famous sunni tafsir of the Quran ever

Ibn Hajar: wrote the most famous commentary of Bukhari ever.

al Qurtubi: wrote various famed works.

 

Answer that one directly.

 

 

Lastly, you were not able to refute any the ahadith I have brought. Not the random weak ones that the writers of your wahabi websites purposely use to cover up the authentic ones.

 

 

I will read your answer carefully to ensure you have answered to everything I have said and point out that you have purposefully avoided some of it just as you always do.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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lol funny how you say a hadith is weak when I never even used it.

 

 

Abdul Rahman ibn Akhnas narrates, 'Al Mughirah ibn Shu'bah gave a sermon, and then cursed Ali ibn Abi Talib'

 

 

2.  lol I never said he was. I am talking about Bani Umayyah

 

 

3.  Where? Don't make claims from nothing.

 

 

1.  You did not use the exact hadith but you alluded to an incident said to have been rooted in the hadith I shared.

 

2.  Banu Umayyah is a thing of your fancy.  You can malign Banu Umayyah however you please but be careful as to where you draw the line.

 

3.  Did the Prophet [saw] not declare Imam Hassan [ra] as the one who would make peace between two groups of believers?  Did Imam Hassan [ra] not make peace with Muawiyah [ra]?  Please, just deny this point and I will never bother you again!

 

 

Rest of your post is the groaning of a person whose ego has been hurt beyond repair.  Sorry, I am not good at consoling others.

Finally, what do you say about three of your grandest scholars admitting Imam Ali (as) was cursed from the pulpits, you obviously don't know them so let me tell you who they are:

 

Ibn Kathir: wrote the most famous sunni tafsir of the Quran ever

 

 

Ibn Kathir (al-Badaya wa al-Nahaya) in his book:

"When Marwan was a governor of Muawiyyah in Madina, he used to curse Hadhrat Ali one each Friday from the minbar.  And Hadhrat Hassan bin Ali said to him: 'Allah then cursed your father by the tongue of His messenger when you were in his 'Sulub' (loin) and has said that curse of Allah be upon Hakam and his progeny.' "  (Albadaya wa Alnahaya, Ibn Kathir, vol. 8, page 259)

 

From what I have seen, that is what is brought forth from the works of Ibn Kathir [rah] and we can clearly see that it is talking about Marwan cursing Imam Ali [ra].  I think I have already clarified our position on Marwan for you.

 

Read what Muawiyah [ra] said in the same work:

"Ali is better and more virtuous than me and I differ from him only in the

matter of qisaas of Uthmaan (Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh) and if he takes the

qisaas of the blood of uthmaan I will be the first of the people of syria to

make bayah to him"

[al-Bidaya wan Nihaayah page 129,259 vol 7]

Edited by muslim720

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I like how you cut out 90% of what I wrote, but anyway,

 

3.  Did the Prophet [saw] not declare Imam Hassan [ra] as the one who would make peace between two groups of believers?  Did Imam Hassan [ra] not make peace with Muawiyah [ra]?  Please, just deny this point and I will never bother you again!

 

 

That is praising Imam al Hassan (as) , not the fool on the other side. Tell me, when the Prophet (pbuh) made peace with those polytheists at Hudaybiyyah were both sides good people?

 

Secondly, read Tirmidhi and you'll find that the Prophet (pbuh) said that Muawiyah was obsessed with the Dunya and thats the only narration you'll find from the Prophet (pbuh) about Muawiyah.

 

Lastly, why have you taken the stance of the wahabis? A Sunni speaker that I have a lot of respect for, and is hugely popular, is Adnan Ibrahim who admitted that Muawiyah, Yazid and their sons were all nawasib.

 

 

 

 

2.  Banu Umayyah is a thing of your fancy.  You can malign Banu Umayyah however you please but be careful as to where you draw the line.

 

 

Bani Umayyah is the source of Hanbalism, so it is extremely important. And be careful to draw the line? haha just reconsider yourself for a second, the Prophet (pbuh) , in Bukhari, said Infidels will kill Ammar ibn Yasir (ra) . Guess who killed Ammar? Muawiyah. So the Prophet (pbuh) indirectly said he is an infidel.

 

 

Read what Muawiyah [ra] said in the same work:

"Ali is better and more virtuous than me and I differ from him only in the
matter of qisaas of Uthmaan (Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh) and if he takes the
qisaas of the blood of uthmaan I will be the first of the people of syria to
make bayah to him"
[al-Bidaya wan Nihaayah page 129,259 vol 7]

 

 

Makes no difference because Muawiyah was a liar

 

1.  You did not use the exact hadith but you alluded to an incident said to have been rooted in the hadith I shared.

 

 

Pathetic- you cannot say, 'Oh, one hadith is weak and that means the rest are weak', whereas in reality 90% of the narrations on this issue are authentic.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Now people, please pay attention to the huge arguments that he couldn't counter and lied to cover it up:

 

-All of the narrations I gave are sahih and he didn't answer to one of them.

 

-Huge scholars, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar and al Qurtubi admitted it.

 

-No one qualified ever said Albani was unqualified.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

And guess what mr Muslim720? In the next thread, I will show something even more horrendous authenticated by you beloved Dhahabi who you love to quote and I'm sure you'll agree he is completely 'qualified'.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Read what Muawiyah [ra] said in the same work:

 

 

Salmunalaykum,

 

This may be something you would like to read brother, it brings another dimension to this discussion.

 

The Holy Prophet also told him that

"Ammar be cheerful, the aggressor party shall kill you."

Sunni references:

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p383

- Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, Traditions #6968& #6970

 

 

"In the Battle of Sifin, when the head of Ammar Yasir (ra) was cut off and taken to Muawiyya, two people were arguing over it, each one claimed that he had killed Ammar."

Sunni references:

- Musnad Ahmad (Pub. in Dar al-Maarif, Egypt 1952), Tradition #6538, #6929

- Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa’d, v3, p253

 

 

 

It's just extremely strange why , after Aisha wrongly tried to raise an army, Muwiyah decides to as well. I mean where were these individuals where Uthman was in a siege? It was Ali a.s risking his sons to protect Uthman.

 

But suddenly Aisha raises an army and repents after. And then Muawiyah raises an army. Isn't there a hadith that states you must obey a ruler even if he is corrupt? Why did Muwiyah not leave it to the Caliph Ali if his intentions were at all just?

 

Furthermore, not only does Muawiyah cause problems with Ali a.s, he causes problems with his Son Hassan a.s

 

He appoints his son Yazid who causes the slaughter of Hussain a.s in kerbala.

 

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: If one while praying between the Rukn and Maqam (near Ka’bah) and fasting, dies but with the hate of the family of Muhammad, he will enter the Fire. And he who abuses my Ahlul-Bayt is verily an apostate and is driven out of Islam. And he who inflicts pain on my progeny upon him is the curse of Allah. And he who hurts me by hurting my progeny has verily hurt/angered Allah.

Certainly Allah has made Paradise forbidden to he who does injustice to my Ahlul-Bayt, or kills them, or assists against them, or abuses them.

Sunni reference: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, p357 who said this tradition is authentic.

 

 

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami al-Makki was a Sunni Muslim Shafi`i scholar, born in 909 AH. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami was a student of Zakariyya al-Ansari. He represents the foremost resource for legal opinion in the entire late Shafi`i school

Edited by Logical Islamic

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Stay on topic please brothers. I've been in too many threads where the topic changes completely due to one reason or another and I must admit I have done it myself, and it taks you away from the discussion. 

 

My question to Ahlul Sunnah is simple: Why did Bani Umayyah have such an intense hate for Imam Ali (as) ? 

 

Banu Ummayah always had hatred for banu hashmi. 

 

Ali ( RA ) killed a lot of them in the battles he fought and thus the hatred increased. 

 

When Hussain ( as ) head was brought to Yazeed , he said he has extracted the revenge of the Day of Badr.  This clearly shows , what kind of talks was going on his house.  

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