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In the Name of God بسم الله

Religious Rapists

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  • Veteran Member

I don't have much interaction with Iraqis or Lebs but even though some of them might curse or make a sarcastic remark, they -religious ones- often refrain from linking such acts with religion itself. The good spirited reactions from youth and elders is to dissociate between these acts and the religion. My interactions might be limited and thus i am maybe being too optimistic, but a recent hijacking of religion by a political party ensued a reaction from various members of Muslim society and i've seen people leaning toward this optimistic attitude of dissociation. Those who like to link it to religion are usually the liberals and the atheist arabs.

Religion doesn't matter to them anyway. Moreover, with internet one can see the crime in all societies so linking it to religion alone is fake. People really started to grow up from the spoon feeding of the anti religion propaganda.

Its mostly linked to historical experiences that shape perceptions. There once were those house negros in Iraq who worshipped communism and would constantly debate the religious, but even they reverted once they began reading Shahid Sadr's books about economics and philosophy.

 

Just look at the tragedy here, one youthful person here is now convinced there is a certain 'interpretation' out there that says zina with a good girl studying the Quran is ok. The elite of Pakistan and their rhetoric have produced this lost and confused generation. And then theres that hysterical woman saying the religious do the worst acts, these mindsets will never be cleaned unfortunately. It does seem to be the case that theyre more prevalent in the subcontinent than other parts of the muslim world.

 

They may just be a loud minority though.

Edited by Jahangiram
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I was not talking about that particular incident. And I never said they want to justify homosexuality. The point was that they, despite calling themselves men of faith, as defenders and upholders of faith and moral values(and despite being acknowledged by society as such), failed to live up to those standards they were asking us to follow. That's hypocrisy. They did not interpret the act to be right, they went ahead with it hoping nobody would notice.

They use their position as defenders of faith and their claim to be upholders of morality to exert influence in ways that have been detrimental to this society. They are able to get away with these acts exactly because of their authority.

You say the only way to deal with it is to implement true Islamic law, and you recognise that it is not possible in Sunni majority countries.The reason for this, I believe, is that the laws they claim to be Islamic are in reality a mutation of it, and that they will not bring about justice, but simply provide the executioners of this law an opportunity to use it to their own benefit.

That is the argument. That they are already using laws they claim to be Islamic to their own benefit.

Again, please note that we're proud Shia Muslims too. The insinuation that we're some atheists out on an agenda is hurtful. But also, being a Shia doesn't mean I am going to shut up if someone diverts my Hussainiya's(imambargah) funds for his personal benefit, just because that person happens to have a degree in religion.

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I am curious to know the general message that you want to send through this topic with such title in a multinational platform with many of its members being young and in the process of researching religion. Some are in the process of considering to be religious or not. Others in the process to be muslim or not. Some in the process to be theists or not.

 

For most Muslims - not only shia- in the east, the message of these scandals is "a scandal". Muslims in east know that corruption can happen everywhere they also know that anyone can claim to be religious. To become or not to become religious has nothing to do with these scandals.

 

For Muslims in the west though, the image might not be that clear and the link between these stories and the similar stories regarding the scandals of the church is not favorable. The current propaganda is to make religious environments an environments of sins while non religious environments an environments of virtues.

 

So I am curious to know what's the great message that you want to send to those in the west by posting these scandals then relating them to religion not to fake religious appearances ? What is your responsible message to the youth, teens and those lost souls who did not decide yet to join the religion?

 

I wouldn't have said much after Brained's post, which took care of your loaded question very well, but I believe you asked this in the first place because people in the West aren't fully aware of the import of the perversion of Islam in some Muslim countries, notably in Pakistan. In the West Islam defends itself from attacks by the outsiders; in this country and in others Islam is having to defend itself against its own perversion.

 

I started this thread by saying that people should not be fooled by appearances. I am sure it is obvious to you as it is to me, but what to do with these masses I interact on a daily basis who fall into the feet and latch on to every word of anyone who has memorised the Quran and appears in a scholarly garb? I risk repetition but seeing how easily you people misunderstand where I'm coming from, I am going to explain things to you like someone explains to a foreigner who has just come from a remote Icelandic village. So bear with me and go through a journey of the perversion of Islam.

 

Tribalism, jirgas, panchaiyats and their horrors against poor people: It is funny how so called liberals are berated endlessly by self-declared religious people, but they don't know, or perhaps don't want to know, that whenever a woman is gang-raped by the order of a jirga, or forced to marry the enemy to settle feuds, or when these honour killings take place, the only groups of people which are there on the ground to provide moral, financial and legal support comprise the same hated 'liberals' and human rights activists. I have not seen a single case - a single case - where some self-declared mazhabi jamaat (religions organisation) has stepped in to offer similar support to the victims. If there are any examples, I'd be happy to know. These religious organisations are good when there is a natural disaster, but when it comes to tribal atrocities, they are nowhere to be found.

 

Let alone help them, on the contrary, these tribal atrocities sustain themselves precisely because they can find excuses drawn from religion. When a girl as young as 10/11/12 is married off for money by her illiterate parents, scholars are there to endorse this action, not realising that it's not been a marriage bit a business deal, because often the grooms are old men. But it's all okay to them since apparently no Islamic law has been broken.

 

When an honour killing takes place, in which women are found/doubted to be in an illicit relationship, the local religious leaders are there to declare her a w'hore, and wash over the crime of vigilante killing as an unfortunate but unavoidable thing, thus practically justifying the murder.

 

A few months ago a case of a rape of a child girl in Lahore was reported widely in media. The head of the largest religio-political party in an interview said that parents had better kept quiet and not reported it to the police. He said the honour of the girl and the family cannot be returned once lost, so what would apprehending the perpetrator have achieved? Yes that's what he said. That the rapist should be punished was irrelevant to him. Why should they make themselves a spectacle to the world? (Obviously his reasoning was that since the girl couldn't produce for live witnesses, and therefore couldn't prove the rape, there was no point in reporting it). I kid you not. And this is a guy who was once a university professor, fluent in English, and not some ordinary semi-literate parrot mullah.

 

Read the report of the latest deliberations of the Council of Islamic Ideology, a state organ, that gave the fatwa that modern ways of determining rape like DNA may be considered but this evidence still cannot replace the four witnesses lol. They said the rapist cannot be punished to the full extent of the Islamic law even if the rape is proved with DNA evidence. Right...

 

During the last couple of decades a large number of kids, including girls, have been enrolled in state schools by their parents. Illiterate villagers and tribal parents were happy to send their girls so they could at least learn to read and write. It happened in my village too where fathers in my family's employ would tell us with some pride that their kids are now going to school! "At least they will read newspapers and be able to do riyazi (mathematics)". However, the more religious the father the more unlikely his daughter to enroll in school.

 

Now what do those zombie mullahs do? They first tell parents that girls should stay at home and only taught Quran and their brethren, Pak's version of Boko Haramis, go even further and bomb the school into nonexistence. Islam has just been implement. Mabrook!

 

That despite the fact that state schools from primary to high are always gender exclusive and 90% girls are taught by women teachers. No attacks in my village though. It's a peaceful place and far away from the area of influence of zombie jihadists (someone's freedom fighters).

 

I can go and on and on and on...but I will wrap up by saying what I often say that the populist expression of Islam in this country is poison that's killing the soul of our society - from politics to war, from law to culture, it destroys everything that comes in its way. Their calls to implement shariah is a call to implement fascistic barbarism whose only aim is to bring us back to....well...Taliban ages.

 

The quicker people see through the smokescreen the better. But what do to, there are many ill-educated and illiterates who are taken in by the empty rhetoric that they hear coming from the mouths of ideologically driven nutjobs of Wahhabism. To those people whatever a scholar says is Islam, for, isn't he a scholar and knows Islam better than a clean-shaved 'liberal' like me, or the one who wa speaking against the 'scholars' on TV? Of course?

 

To them nothing matters save chopping off of heads and stoning of sinners and killing of minorities. That's how they want their Islam to be implemented and not by being genuinely pious, by working towards ending corruption and creating an equitable society; by preaching and being an example for the others to follow. If they did any of that, I'd be the first to join them. But I can't, because their Islam is implemented in this day and age through the barrel of the gun and the jacket of the suicide bomber. I can't lend an iota of credence to this perverted Islam, especially as a Shia, who am as sure as hell that if they come to power, I will at best be considered a second class citizen with severe restrictions imposed on my freedom of religion and expression, and at worst I will be declared a non-Muslim minority like the Ahmadis, and treated with the same hate and disgust as Ahmadis are in this country.

 

Lastly, I use irony in abundance in my writings and I trust that people are intelligent enough to understand it. Yet if you think I am taking a dig at religion or genuinely pious people then I'm sorry, this was never my intention. As for the title of the thread, it is fortuitous that you mentioned Catholic sex scandal because in Deobandi/Wahhabi centres and tableegh gatherings sexual exploitation of young boys is rampant. It's hushed up and no one talks about it.There a few reports here and there in the media but they are like a drop in the pond. You know about these things only through informed loop of sources. Some queer patterns run through the minds of the people preaching hardcore chastity in a very aggressive, harsh manner, damning people to hell day and night with their fire and brimstone speeches, yet as soon as they turn around their male members are pointing towards young behinds. Something is amiss.

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  • Veteran Member

Apparently, the link between these "pseudo-religious" people and mutated interpretations of religion is lost on many. Whereas many people in the West easily dismiss these mullahs as shams and charlatans, the mainstream majority in our godforsaken countries judge these people to be the real representatives of the ideals of Islam. 

 

There is this whole cycle embedded in our societies where skewed interpretations of faith lead to tainted "scholars" who further rearrange faith according to their whims and needs, and in the process manufacture even worse creatures masquerading as people of faith. Calling them out does not mean criticizing Islam, as many take it here. Nobody is casting aspersions on sincere men of faith. But the fact that real pious people are few and far in between is obviously lost on many. Saying that aloud has nothing to do with being a liberal elitist or whatever.

 

The jirgas, that tribal culture, and those faith-healers/quacks are not simply a proof of failure of Islam as people think is being implied, but a failure in correctly interpreting faith. These institutions sustain themselves, in part, using their skewed interpretation of Islam. Ideas that challenge these structures are at once deemed unIslamic, as doings of the kuffar. "Girls education? that's a Western invention brother. Islam doesn't allow this." That's not just some old-tribal fart speaking, this is their attempt to save Islam, their version of Islam. Ditto with blasphemy laws. It is their attempt to save their Islam.

 

How and why they believe in such tainted interpretations of Islam is beyond us. But the fact is they do. It may not be clear to those in the West, but it is perfectly clear to us.

 

You do realise the talib dogs are mainly campaigning against western education, right? That's why one of their senior members sent Malala a letter telling her to follow pashtunwali and attend a girl's madrasa. I don't know what retard in this galaxy would make such a quirky claim that 'girls education is a western invention' lol, it almost sounds like it came right out of a comic strip.

 

 

They do point out those crimes. And when they do it, they are branded as agents of the West, as kaafirs, and have fatwas labelling them as waajibul qatal. 

 

 

There was no point of this thread, until Shias came along to defend these rabid dogs.

 

You're slightly confused, i'm talking about people who commit excesses and crimes in the name of profit and tribalism. Nothing would please a mullah more if such people were pointed out. No ones defending these disgusting perverts, people are complaining about the fact that they're being conflated with us average folk who strive to be religious.

 

 

Read the report of the latest deliberations of the Council of Islamic Ideology, a state organ, that gave the fatwa that modern ways of determining rape like DNA may be considered but this evidence still cannot replace the four witnesses lol. They said the rapist cannot be punished to the full extent of the Islamic law even if the rape is proved with DNA evidence. Right...

 

Ah there seems to be a misunderstanding here lol. By full extent of the law they mean the hadd. If theres circumstantial evidence of rape like DNA a tazir punishment is prescribed for the rapist (usually a prison sentence) but not the hadd punishment of death. This is something our ulema have written about as well, which is why im defending it here.

 

There's also the hadd for corruption on earth (two witnesses) if the girl was threatened with a weapon or abducted from home. The rape laws are quite nuanced, but many naively summarise it as four witnesses always.

Edited by Jahangiram
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  • Veteran Member

You do realise the talib dogs are mainly campaigning against western education, right? That's why one of their senior members sent Malala a letter telling her to follow pashtunwali and attend a girl's madrasa. I don't know what retard in this galaxy would make such a quirky claim that 'girls education is a western invention' lol, it almost sounds like it came right out of a comic strip.

 

 

 

Again. The reason he was able to say that ( He said "Islamic and pushtoon character") is because he justifies these archaic societal structures using a skewed version of Islam.

 

How about the claim "Killing Ahmadis will give you heaven." That's sounds bizarre doesn't it now? But several mosques from Karachi to Lahore, in these urban areas (devoid of those primal institutions you're blaming) have said this out aloud. Aamir Liaquat said something to this tune on Pakistan's most popular TV channel a few years back. The response, well, a few innocent got slaughtered. Bring us one religious organisation that condemned their killing. Or don't blame us when people conclude that these guardians of morality are not actually concerned about this society.

 

 

You're slightly confused, i'm talking about people who commit excesses and crimes in the name of profit and tribalism. Nothing would please a mullah more if such people were pointed out. No ones defending these disgusting perverts, people are complaining about the fact that they're being conflated with us average folk who strive to be religious.

 

 

By and large these excesses are committed in the name of religion. That's a fact. Have a look at the incidents involving Pakistan's blasphemy laws. 

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Again. The reason he was able to say that ( He said "Islamic and pushtoon character") is because he justifies these archaic societal structures using a skewed version of Islam.

 

How about the claim "Killing Ahmadis will give you heaven." That's sounds bizarre doesn't it now? But several mosques from Karachi to Lahore, in these urban areas (devoid of those primal institutions you're blaming) have said this out aloud. Aamir Liaquat said something to this tune on Pakistan's most popular TV channel a few years back. The response, well, a few innocent got slaughtered. Bring us one religious organisation that condemned their killing. Or don't blame us when people conclude that these guardians of morality are not actually concerned about this society.

 

Yes this cowboy attitude is problematic, deobandis are a problem in Pakistan. But that's not the focus of this thread, me and ibnsohan are frustrated that the label 'religious' is given to these desi pervs , thereby making devout muslims guilty by association.

 

 

By and large these excesses are committed in the name of religion. That's a fact. Have a look at the incidents involving Pakistan's blasphemy laws. 

 

Im talking about the crimes specific to the tribalists and crony capitalists. Its just a fact the liberal media in Pakistan are much less enthusiastic about reporting the excesses of pashtunwali and crooked banksters; but when a mullah says something slightly controversial it elicits a national debate. All criminal acts and provocations should be a major concern.  The fine line between following pashtunwali and shariah is often blurred in the pathan community, so to jump quickly and claim a criminal act of a tribal elder was done 'in the name of religion' is naïve. A prime example is the honour killings, as you know shariah says four male witnesses is the condition for proving adultery for both male and female. But according to Pashtunwali mere hearsay (peghor) is enough to justify murdering the poor woman, since the tribe's honour has been tarnished. Olivier Roy delves into these subtleties in his book "Islam and Resistance in Afghanistan".

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I wouldn't have said much after Brained's post, which took care of your loaded question very well, but I believe you asked this in the first place because people in the West aren't fully aware of the import of the perversion of Islam in some Muslim countries, notably in Pakistan. In the West Islam defends itself from attacks by the outsiders; in this country and in others Islam is having to defend itself against its own perversion.

 

I started this thread by saying that people should not be fooled by appearances. I am sure it is obvious to you as it is to me, but what to do with these masses I interact on a daily basis who fall into the feet and latch on to every word of anyone who has memorised the Quran and appears in a scholarly garb? I risk repetition but seeing how easily you people misunderstand where I'm coming from, I am going to explain things to you like someone explains to a foreigner who has just come from a remote Icelandic village. So bear with me and go through a journey of the perversion of Islam.

 

Tribalism, jirgas, panchaiyats and their horrors against poor people: It is funny how so called liberals are berated endlessly by self-declared religious people, but they don't know, or perhaps don't want to know, that whenever a woman is gang-raped by the order of a jirga, or forced to marry the enemy to settle feuds, or when these honour killings take place, the only groups of people which are there on the ground to provide moral, financial and legal support comprise the same hated 'liberals' and human rights activists. I have not seen a single case - a single case - where some self-declared mazhabi jamaat (religions organisation) has stepped in to offer similar support to the victims. If there are any examples, I'd be happy to know. These religious organisations are good when there is a natural disaster, but when it comes to tribal atrocities, they are nowhere to be found.

 

Let alone help them, on the contrary, these tribal atrocities sustain themselves precisely because they can find excuses drawn from religion. When a girl as young as 10/11/12 is married off for money by her illiterate parents, scholars are there to endorse this action, not realising that it's not been a marriage bit a business deal, because often the grooms are old men. But it's all okay to them since apparently no Islamic law has been broken.

 

When an honour killing takes place, in which women are found/doubted to be in an illicit relationship, the local religious leaders are there to declare her a w'hore, and wash over the crime of vigilante killing as an unfortunate but unavoidable thing, thus practically justifying the murder.

 

A few months ago a case of a rape of a child girl in Lahore was reported widely in media. The head of the largest religio-political party in an interview said that parents had better kept quiet and not reported it to the police. He said the honour of the girl and the family cannot be returned once lost, so what would apprehending the perpetrator have achieved? Yes that's what he said. That the rapist should be punished was irrelevant to him. Why should they make themselves a spectacle to the world? (Obviously his reasoning was that since the girl couldn't produce for live witnesses, and therefore couldn't prove the rape, there was no point in reporting it). I kid you not. And this is a guy who was once a university professor, fluent in English, and not some ordinary semi-literate parrot mullah.

 

Read the report of the latest deliberations of the Council of Islamic Ideology, a state organ, that gave the fatwa that modern ways of determining rape like DNA may be considered but this evidence still cannot replace the four witnesses lol. They said the rapist cannot be punished to the full extent of the Islamic law even if the rape is proved with DNA evidence. Right...

 

During the last couple of decades a large number of kids, including girls, have been enrolled in state schools by their parents. Illiterate villagers and tribal parents were happy to send their girls so they could at least learn to read and write. It happened in my village too where fathers in my family's employ would tell us with some pride that their kids are now going to school! "At least they will read newspapers and be able to do riyazi (mathematics)". However, the more religious the father the more unlikely his daughter to enroll in school.

 

Now what do those zombie mullahs do? They first tell parents that girls should stay at home and only taught Quran and their brethren, Pak's version of Boko Haramis, go even further and bomb the school into nonexistence. Islam has just been implement. Mabrook!

 

That despite the fact that state schools from primary to high are always gender exclusive and 90% girls are taught by women teachers. No attacks in my village though. It's a peaceful place and far away from the area of influence of zombie jihadists (someone's freedom fighters).

 

I can go and on and on and on...but I will wrap up by saying what I often say that the populist expression of Islam in this country is poison that's killing the soul of our society - from politics to war, from law to culture, it destroys everything that comes in its way. Their calls to implement shariah is a call to implement fascistic barbarism whose only aim is to bring us back to....well...Taliban ages.

 

The quicker people see through the smokescreen the better. But what do to, there are many ill-educated and illiterates who are taken in by the empty rhetoric that they hear coming from the mouths of ideologically driven nutjobs of Wahhabism. To those people whatever a scholar says is Islam, for, isn't he a scholar and knows Islam better than a clean-shaved 'liberal' like me, or the one who wa speaking against the 'scholars' on TV? Of course?

 

To them nothing matters save chopping off of heads and stoning of sinners and killing of minorities. That's how they want their Islam to be implemented and not by being genuinely pious, by working towards ending corruption and creating an equitable society; by preaching and being an example for the others to follow. If they did any of that, I'd be the first to join them. But I can't, because their Islam is implemented in this day and age through the barrel of the gun and the jacket of the suicide bomber. I can't lend an iota of credence to this perverted Islam, especially as a Shia, who am as sure as hell that if they come to power, I will at best be considered a second class citizen with severe restrictions imposed on my freedom of religion and expression, and at worst I will be declared a non-Muslim minority like the Ahmadis, and treated with the same hate and disgust as Ahmadis are in this country.

 

Lastly, I use irony in abundance in my writings and I trust that people are intelligent enough to understand it. Yet if you think I am taking a dig at religion or genuinely pious people then I'm sorry, this was never my intention. As for the title of the thread, it is fortuitous that you mentioned Catholic sex scandal because in Deobandi/Wahhabi centres and tableegh gatherings sexual exploitation of young boys is rampant. It's hushed up and no one talks about it.There a few reports here and there in the media but they are like a drop in the pond. You know about these things only through informed loop of sources. Some queer patterns run through the minds of the people preaching hardcore chastity in a very aggressive, harsh manner, damning people to hell day and night with their fire and brimstone speeches, yet as soon as they turn around their male members are pointing towards young behinds. Something is amiss.

Yes. A pakistani issue, cultural issue. Most of what you said are peculiar to Pakistan and are carried by both religious and non religious people in heavily wahabi country. The context of this issue should be presented to all of us foreigners from remote icelandic village.

I don't think that religion is what is causing this problem but the lack of it. There is lack of alternatives to the current religiosity style. Wahabism through its petro-dollar alliance  filled the vacuum by building mosques and supporting madrasah in many countries. Some of the weirdest fatwas of our century are all coming from the same school and the barbaric behaviors are almost always belonging to it as well even in Western countries (there are number of jihadists with strange beliefs who had graduated from wahabi school).

Also, religion is being used as a cover by almost everyone. Even those who don't believe in a particular religion, they'll create their own set of morals then judge people according to them hypocritically.

Your approach to the problem is wrong. People who are seeking religious education will not accept the liberals sincere concerns over the crimes by Mullahs. I doubt liberals will speak against late marriages, indecent movies and other issues that the average muslim face daily while struggling to keep his religion. A religious person will seek an alternative from another religious school not from a liberal treatment of the issue. Let me try to explain to you through this example from the net :

 

 

More troubling, said Nayyar, is the very radical and militant view of Islam that was inked into the country's national public school curriculum, and into the hearts and minds of students.

"There were lessons in textbooks which actually told students, and still continue to do in the latest books, that jihad is enjoined upon all Muslims and getting ready for jihad, not just by fighting yourself, but also if you can't fight supporting it by providing it money and help and so on and so forth, is supposed to be duty of each and every Muslim," he said. "No wonder that jihad has now become so deep-rooted in Pakistani society."

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-08-21/madrassa-myth-pakistan-public-schools-may-be-problem

The law of Jihad that Dr. Nayyar is questioning is accepted by all schools of thoughts in all Muslim countries. When a religious student who knows better than dr Nayyar in religion reads his comment, he won't be moved by his words because obviously they are words of a jahil or someone who is not saying the full truth. If there is a problem within pakistan that is religious in nature but exclusively appears in Pakistan , then other elements should be investigated and presented as well.

 

My question was not loaded. If this was a Pakistani only forum or this article was written in urdu, i wouldn't have commented because i understand the frustration behind it, but it is written in multinational forum and is poorly presented to them as a case of religiosity when in fact it is a case of rape culture.

Religion is weaker than culture. Seyed- seyed marriage and self flagellation are cultural practices but religious voices are weaker than to reach the masses. Has any liberal tried to address the issue from cultural point of view?

 

If this topic was started by a non Muslim on this forum, I am pretty sure that the poster would have received the worst of treatment.

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Yes. A pakistani issue, cultural issue. Most of what you said are peculiar to Pakistan and are carried by both religious and non religious people in heavily wahabi country. The context of this issue should be presented to all of us foreigners from remote icelandic village.

I don't think that religion is what is causing this problem but the lack of it. There is lack of alternatives to the current religiosity style. Wahabism through its petro-dollar alliance  filled the vacuum by building mosques and supporting madrasah in many countries. Some of the weirdest fatwas of our century are all coming from the same school and the barbaric behaviors are almost always belonging to it as well even in Western countries (there are number of jihadists with strange beliefs who had graduated from wahabi school).

Also, religion is being used as a cover by almost everyone. Even those who don't believe in a particular religion, they'll create their own set of morals then judge people according to them hypocritically.

Your approach to the problem is wrong. People who are seeking religious education will not accept the liberals sincere concerns over the crimes by Mullahs. I doubt liberals will speak against late marriages, indecent movies and other issues that the average muslim face daily while struggling to keep his religion. A religious person will seek an alternative from another religious school not from a liberal treatment of the issue. Let me try to explain to you through this example from the net :

 

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-08-21/madrassa-myth-pakistan-public-schools-may-be-problem

The law of Jihad that Dr. Nayyar is questioning is accepted by all schools of thoughts in all Muslim countries. When a religious student who knows better than dr Nayyar in religion reads his comment, he won't be moved by his words because obviously they are words of a jahil or someone who is not saying the full truth. If there is a problem within pakistan that is religious in nature but exclusively appears in Pakistan , then other elements should be investigated and presented as well.

 

My question was not loaded. If this was a Pakistani only forum or this article was written in urdu, i wouldn't have commented because i understand the frustration behind it, but it is written in multinational forum and is poorly presented to them as a case of religiosity when in fact it is a case of rape culture.

Religion is weaker than culture. Seyed- seyed marriage and self flagellation are cultural practices but religious voices are weaker than to reach the masses. Has any liberal tried to address the issue from cultural point of view?

 

If this topic was started by a non Muslim on this forum, I am pretty sure that the poster would have received the worst of treatment.

 

 

First of all, whenever I have criticised something or someone I have done it with reference to the place and the culture where it happened. For example, read the very first line of this thread. I said 'Islam in Pakistan' not just 'Islam'.

 

That said, it is too easy to write these things off as problems peculiar to Pakistan. The populist Islamic discourse in Pakistan is part of the larger discourse prevailing in most of the Muslim world, the mad desire to implement 'shariah' is one of them, which, whenever its corrupt proponents have managed to impose it, has unleashed a reign of misery and injustice on ordinary people, minorities and women - Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, lately a year of Morsi in Egypt, and their attempts to impose themselves in Syria, Lebanon, Nigeria, Sudan, Central Asian states - it's everywhere. Now they want to legalise child marriage in Iraq too.

 

The problems like honour killing, the culture of settling scores by raping your opponent's women, the restrictions on women's mobility, education and work, and the oppression of women in general are not exclusive to Pakistan but shared by all tribal societies from Arabia to Africa. The populist religious discourse of the mullah and of the religious conservatives has failed to address these issues precisely because the social status of women in a tribal society is married so closely to the social status of women they want in their ideal Islamic society. And this discourse washes over the crimes as an act of impiety nothing more. This is why you don't see religious organisations coming out into the streets to protest against honour killings and rapes. There is no debate on the hackneyed mindsets and religiously derived apologetics that enable these atrocities.

 

A hundred or so years ago when girls were first taking up modern education, they were declared of lose character, promiscuous women, Westernised harlots who had destroyed the sanctity of hijab and Islamic family values by opting to leave the four walls of the house. If we read history we find that these charges were made invariably by religious men in positions of influence. The religious-conservative worldview has always been the last to accept irreversible changes. Now, their contemporary mutations have resorted to bombing schools. They aren't against Western education; they are against any education that is not Quran, hadith and rules of hayd and nafaas. In Muslim countries the education that's dubbed Western teaches subjects like physics, maths, biology, social studies, study of national language, and in some cases English or French. This education is called 'Western' and a justified target of their perverted jihadsit terrorism.

 

Now, like the issue of jihad you mentioned, when the corruption of an ideology is so prevalent, people are too confused to find out its original, pure, proper meanings, or find out what the Shias think of it; they judge things by how they look and by their implications. Today 95% of the time jihad is a byword for terrorism,  intolerance of others, and oppression of the people, which is again part of the same perversion of Islam which has become so common.

 

The first experiments in jihadism and extremism were conducted in Pakistan as well as in Afghanistan, and what's been happening here for the last 30 or 40 years has now spread across the Muslim Ummah, thanks to Islamist ideology of the Sunni-Wahhabi world, its enablers and its apologists.

Edited by Marbles
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This is my last post in this discussion. You don't seem to understand that your language through your posts in this topic is a bit offensive to your targeted audience (shia members who are now guilty by association as ja..etc put it), nor you are trying to appreciate what we are trying to say which is that your approach to the problem is counter productive. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_China

is the above case an example of Islamic barbaric communities as well propagated by zombi mullahs?

 

In Muslim countries the education that's dubbed Western teaches subjects like physics, maths, biology, social studies, study of national language, and in some cases English or French. This education is called 'Western' and a justified target of their perverted jihadsit terrorism.

 

The Arab world + Iran are not included in this false generalization. This is something I am 100% sure about. It was a problem a century ago because the schools were opened by the colonists. The traditional islamic school were still running back then and this link between job and education was not there yet. Add to that that the schools were far away from the home with no cars or buses or safe means to transport them daily without adding burden upon the  family. They feared the mixed schools, they feared giving up their children -upbringing- to people who differ with them on moral issues like the relations between genders, religion, darwinism, sex education in early classes, fake history, fake psychology, encouraging dancing and singing, discouraging hijab etc. Education environment meant much to parents, it was more important than a useless study of physics for a farmer daughter who will most likely marry in few years and settle home raising up her children. These are the society concerns and they should be tackled down respectfully instead of lumping us all -mozlems- and blaming our islamic identity the faults of incompatibility between native societies and the colonists imported morals.

 

 

Now, like the issue of jihad you mentioned, when the corruption of an ideology is so prevalent, people are too confused to find out its original, pure, proper meanings, or find out what the Shias think of it; they judge things by how they look and by their implications. Today 95% of the time jihad is a byword for terrorism,  intolerance of others, and oppression of the people, which is again part of the same perversion of Islam which has become so common.

 

And how is a title like yours is helping in enlightening the confused to tell the difference ? This is the whole point of my original question.

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And how is a title like yours is helping in enlightening the confused to tell the difference ? This is the whole point of my original question.

 

I thought I had addressed that? It's a symbolic title, written by making use of irony, to make a point in sarcasm. Anyway, I have explained myself at length. But I am sorry if it was offensive, although it shouldn't be, unless a reader belongs to the zombie subset of Wahhabism.

 

The Arab world + Iran are not included in this false generalization. This is something I am 100% sure about. It was a problem a century ago because the schools were opened by the colonists. The traditional islamic school were still running back then and this link between job and education was not there yet. Add to that that the schools were far away from the home with no cars or buses or safe means to transport them daily without adding burden upon the  family. They feared the mixed schools, they feared giving up their children -upbringing- to people who differ with them on moral issues like the relations between genders, religion, darwinism, sex education in early classes, fake history, fake psychology, encouraging dancing and singing, discouraging hijab etc. Education environment meant much to parents, it was more important than a useless study of physics for a farmer daughter who will most likely marry in few years and settle home raising up her children. These are the society concerns and they should be tackled down respectfully instead of lumping us all -mozlems- and blaming our islamic identity the faults of incompatibility between native societies and the colonists imported morals.

 

Perhaps you read in haste, or misunderstood, but in the part of my post you quoted to respond, I was not generalising to include Arabia plus Iran; I was only talking about contemporary extremists' definition which still treats the study of sciences and languages as "Western", and therefore haram, wherever they might be. Today it is Boko Haramis in Nigeria and Taliban in Af-Pak, tomorrow if their brethren succeed anywhere in the Arab world you'll have the same thing to deal with.

 

As for historic resistance to Western education introduced by the colonialists, yes you're right in saying there were a lot of concerns like those you mentioned, and they had to be addressed respectfully and through fruitful dialogue, but this failed in the most part. The tardy response to modern education and rigid attitudes of the Muslims led them to be left behind in educational race when other peoples were taking up the opportunity. Things might not have been the same in colonial Arabia or Iran but what I said is definitely true for the Muslims of historic India. Those great Muslim leaders, like Syed Ahmad Khan, and even some religious scholars, who did call on Muslims to take modern education and even started their own schools with modern subjects were branded Western toadies out to destroy Islam and rewarded with fataawa of takfir for their efforts, as is the wont of Muslims to date.

 

Anyway, the main thrust of my argument was that there's an unholy marriage (or let's call it sinful cohabitation) between the social values (and atrocities) of tribalism and that of conservative-religious Islamic utopia, hawked every day and every night by the expounders of khilafah and shariah, a rhetoric that fools so many people so easily, including some Shias. This is where I had made the generalisation to include Arabs and the rest of the Muslim world because wherever there is tribalism, the backward looking conservatism of the religious is indirectly helping to sustain it.

Edited by Marbles
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