Woman Sentenced For Apostasy And Adultery

[Maryaam]

I did not think she would be sentenced for apostasy as she was not committing a treasonous act nor proselytizing – she only came to the attention of the authorities as a relative reported her. She is also being charged and sentenced for adultery for being married to her Christian husband through a Christian contract. Is this a valid interpretation of Sharia or is it a misunderstanding and misapplication of the laws?

 

 

Sudan: Pregnant Woman to be Hanged for Converting from Islam to Christianity

 

A heavily pregnant woman has been sentenced to death by hanging by a Sudanese court for converting from Islam to Christianity.

 

Meriam Yehya Ibrahim Ishag was also sentenced to 100 lashes after being convicted of adultery, since her marriage to a Christian man was deemed invalid under Islamic law.

 

The renunciation of Islam in favour of another religious belief, formally known as apostasy, is illegal in Sudan where a majority Muslim population is governed by Islamic law.

 

"We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam. I sentence you to be hanged to death," the judge told Meriam, according to AFP.

 

The defendant replied: "I am a Christian and I never committed apostasy."

 

The sentence is not going to be carried out until two years after the defendant has given birth to her child.

 

Amnesty International condemned the sentencing, saying that Meriam is currently heavily pregnant and should be released immediately.

 

"Amnesty International believes that Meriam is a prisoner of conscience, convicted solely because of her religious beliefs and identity, and must be released immediately and unconditionally," said Manar Idriss, Amnesty's Sudan researcher.  Amnesty added that Meriam was raised an Orthodox Christian by her mother because her Muslim father was absent during her childhood.

 

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sudan-pregnant-woman-be-hanged-converting-islam-christianity-1448688 

 

[Nima]

It is according to shariah yes, if she is a born muslim. Both sunni and shia figh. 

 

 

 

The "only" problem I see  is that she claims  she never   converted to Christianity:

 

The defendant replied: "I am a Christian and I never committed apostasy.

 

Amnesty added that Meriam was raised an Orthodox Christian by her mother because her Muslim father was absent during her childhood.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nima

[Ethics]

There are so many conditions at play. New's sources and governments are all fishy. Only Allah knows what is the truth. They cannot pass such a judgement. That is why I believe only the Imam Mahdi A.S has the right to pass such judgements and not any government. Who knows maybe she never was a truly a Muslim and had doubts all her life. She NEVER openly rejected Islam, as far as I can tell. This is why Sunni islamic laws are beyond absurd. According to Shia Islam, so many conditions come at play. Its not a simple ruling.

 

Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidād.

 

It must be emphasized that the irtidād that we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with full realization of what one's statements or actions imply. If a Muslim has a genuine doubt on an Islamic matter, that process of doubting does not automatically classify him as a murtad.

 

As long as he is still in state of doubt, the punishment of irtidād is suspended.6 A murtad must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means--casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God.

 

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

 

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allāh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.7

 

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/apostacy-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

Edited May 15, 2014 by PureEthics

[Ali-F]

What I remember is that you will not be punished, for apostasy, if you don't create fitnah´. 

[kim.tinkerbell]

How can they hang a pregent woman. It seems like she hasnt done adultery or apostasy. From what she's saying she's christain. Even if she left islam she shouldnt be hanged for it,their are others out their that have left it and walked away freely.

[Abbas.]

Amnesty added that Meriam was raised an Orthodox Christian by her mother because her Muslim father was absent during her childhood.

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sudan-pregnant-woman-be-hanged-converting-islam-christianity-1448688 

 

This bit is important. And if true, the judge's interpretation of Islamic law should be questioned. But I highly doubt that the judge even considered this information. Instead, this is how they must have translated the events: A girl, whose father is a muslim, and therefore she is a born muslim, has converted to christianity and must either revert back to Islam or face the penalty. It is unfortunate and should be condemned.

How can they hang a pregent woman.

 

"The sentence is not going to be carried out until two years after the defendant has given birth to her child".

[Logical Islamic]

So let the woman give birth and then orphan her, because she doesn't believe islam is the right religion?

 

is 3 days enough to 'repent' and truly research Islam with an open mind and under no pressure?

 

Total joke.

 

The punishment for apostasy when someone is not actively rebelling is an utter joke. I pray for forgiveness but i have a right to give my view.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Logical Islamic

[kim.tinkerbell]

 

"The sentence is not going to be carried out until two years after the defendant has given birth to her child".

They shouldnt sentance her either way.

What happens to a muslim woman that cant find a muslim man and he worint convert,but they marry.. Will she still be accused of commiting adultery?... If she leaves islam shes commiting a sin and can be killed for it... What does she do in that case? Their seems to be no way out.

[Bilal33]

But why is there a difference in treatment for born Muslims and converts?

[iCambrian]

Apostate or not, people shouldnt be given the death penalty.  This is like some sort of defense mechanism someone setup back in the dark ages like hanging witches.

 

In this day in age, people ought to have freedom of religion. We all know this.  Even apostates ought to have the right to apostate and move on with their lives.

 

The actions these people take are a clear sign of the harsh times that Sudan is currently going through.  Sudan is a very rough country to live in.  A lot of ignorance and violence. They take advantage of man made interpretations of Islam and use it for their own alleged benefit.  In doing so they simply give Islam a bad name.

[Nima]

Ruling of the female apostate

 

[ 34879 ] 1 ـ محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن علي بن محبوب ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) في المرتدة عن الإسلام قال : لا تقتل وتستخدم خدمة شديدة وتمنع الطعام والشراب إلا ما يمسك نفسها ، وتلبس خشن الثياب ، وتضرب على الصلوات .

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبي مثله ، إلا أنه قال : أخشن الثياب .

 

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. `Ali b. Mahbub from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hammad from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding the female apostate from Islam.  He said: She is not killed, rather she is forced to serve a harsh serving, prohibited (from) food and drink save what will keep her alive, she wears coarse clothing, and is stricken upon the prayer.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Hammad from al-Halabi, except that he said: the coarsest of clothing. 

 

[ 34880 ] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن محمد بن الحسين ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) ، قال : إذا ارتدت المرأة عن الإسلام ، لم تقتل ولكن تحبس أبدا .

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم مثله .

 

2 – And from him from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from Ja`far from his father from `Ali عليهم السلام.  He said: When the woman apostates from Islam, she is not killed, rather she is imprisoned forever.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim likewise.

 

[ 34881 ] 3 ـ وبإسناده عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن حماد عن حريز ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يخلد في السجن إلا ثلاثة : الذي يمسك على الموت ، والمرأة ترتد عن الإسلام ، والسارق بعد قطع اليد والرجل .

 

3 – And by his isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Hammad from Hariz from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: None remain (forever) in prison except for three: the one who is held upon death (i.e. until he is executed), the woman who apostates from Islam, and the thief after the cutting of the hand and foot.

 

[ 34882 ] 4 ـ وعنه ، عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن عباد بن صهيب ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : المرتد يستتاب فان تاب وإلا قتل ، والمرأة تستتاب فان تابت وإلا حبست في السجن ، واضربها .

 

4 – And from him from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from `Abbad b. Suhayb from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: The (male) apostate’s repentance is sought, and unless he repents he is killed.  And the woman’s repentance is sought, and unless she repents she is imprisoned in jail and struck.

 

[ 34883 ] 5 ـ وعنه ، عن النضر بن سويد ، عن عاصم بن حميد ، عن محمّد بن قيس ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : قضى أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ، في وليدة كانت نصرانية فأسلمت وولدت لسيدها ، ثم إن سيدها مات ( وأوصى بها ) عتاقة السرية على عهد عمر فنكحت نصرانيا ديرانيا وتنصرت فولدت منه ولدين وحبلت بالثالث ، فقضى فيها أن يعرض عليها الإسلام ، فعرض عليها الاسلام فأبت ، فقال : ما ولدت من ولد نصرانيا ، فهم عبيد لأخيهم الذي ولدت لسيدها الأول ، وأنا أحبسها حتى تضع ولدها ، فاذا ولدت قتلتها .

 

5 – And from him from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Qays from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام ruled regarding a slave girl who had been a Christian, and who had accepted Islam and given birth for her master.  Then her master died, and he bequeathed to her the emancipation of the captive woman (?) upon the time of `Umar.  So she married a Dayrani Christian and she became Christian, and two children were born of her and she became pregnant with a third.  So he ruled that Islam be presented to her.  So Islam was presented to her and she refused.  So he said: What she has given birth to of Christian children, then they are the slaves of their brothers who she gave birth to for her first master, and I shall imprison her until she gives birth to her child.  So when she had given birth, he killed her.

 

[ 34884 ] 6 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن محبوب عن غير واحد من أصحابنا ، عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبدالله ( عليهما السلام ) في المرتد يستتاب فإن تاب وإلا قتل ، والمرأة إذا ارتدت عن الإسلام استتيبت ، فان تابت فرجعت وإلا خلدت في السجن وضيق عليها في حبسها .

 

6 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Mahbub from more than one of our companions from Abu Ja`far or Abu `Abdillah عليهما السلام regarding that the apostate’s repentance is sought, and unless he repents he is killed, while when the woman apostates from Islam her repentance is sought, and unless she repents and returns, she stays in jail and it is made difficult upon her in her imprisonment.http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/apostasy/chapter-4

[iCambrian]

 

Ruling of the female apostate

 

[ 34879 ] 1 ـ محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن علي بن محبوب ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) في المرتدة عن الإسلام قال : لا تقتل وتستخدم خدمة شديدة وتمنع الطعام والشراب إلا ما يمسك نفسها ، وتلبس خشن الثياب ، وتضرب على الصلوات .

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبي مثله ، إلا أنه قال : أخشن الثياب .

 

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. `Ali b. Mahbub from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hammad from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding the female apostate from Islam.  He said: She is not killed, rather she is forced to serve a harsh serving, prohibited (from) food and drink save what will keep her alive, she wears coarse clothing, and is stricken upon the prayer.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Hammad from al-Halabi, except that he said: the coarsest of clothing. 

 

[ 34880 ] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن محمد بن الحسين ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) ، قال : إذا ارتدت المرأة عن الإسلام ، لم تقتل ولكن تحبس أبدا .

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم مثله .

 

2 – And from him from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from Ja`far from his father from `Ali عليهم السلام.  He said: When the woman apostates from Islam, she is not killed, rather she is imprisoned forever.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim likewise.

 

[ 34881 ] 3 ـ وبإسناده عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن حماد عن حريز ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يخلد في السجن إلا ثلاثة : الذي يمسك على الموت ، والمرأة ترتد عن الإسلام ، والسارق بعد قطع اليد والرجل .

 

3 – And by his isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Hammad from Hariz from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: None remain (forever) in prison except for three: the one who is held upon death (i.e. until he is executed), the woman who apostates from Islam, and the thief after the cutting of the hand and foot.

 

[ 34882 ] 4 ـ وعنه ، عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن عباد بن صهيب ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : المرتد يستتاب فان تاب وإلا قتل ، والمرأة تستتاب فان تابت وإلا حبست في السجن ، واضربها .

 

4 – And from him from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from `Abbad b. Suhayb from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: The (male) apostate’s repentance is sought, and unless he repents he is killed.  And the woman’s repentance is sought, and unless she repents she is imprisoned in jail and struck.

 

[ 34883 ] 5 ـ وعنه ، عن النضر بن سويد ، عن عاصم بن حميد ، عن محمّد بن قيس ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : قضى أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ، في وليدة كانت نصرانية فأسلمت وولدت لسيدها ، ثم إن سيدها مات ( وأوصى بها ) عتاقة السرية على عهد عمر فنكحت نصرانيا ديرانيا وتنصرت فولدت منه ولدين وحبلت بالثالث ، فقضى فيها أن يعرض عليها الإسلام ، فعرض عليها الاسلام فأبت ، فقال : ما ولدت من ولد نصرانيا ، فهم عبيد لأخيهم الذي ولدت لسيدها الأول ، وأنا أحبسها حتى تضع ولدها ، فاذا ولدت قتلتها .

 

5 – And from him from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Qays from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام ruled regarding a slave girl who had been a Christian, and who had accepted Islam and given birth for her master.  Then her master died, and he bequeathed to her the emancipation of the captive woman (?) upon the time of `Umar.  So she married a Dayrani Christian and she became Christian, and two children were born of her and she became pregnant with a third.  So he ruled that Islam be presented to her.  So Islam was presented to her and she refused.  So he said: What she has given birth to of Christian children, then they are the slaves of their brothers who she gave birth to for her first master, and I shall imprison her until she gives birth to her child.  So when she had given birth, he killed her.

 

[ 34884 ] 6 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن محبوب عن غير واحد من أصحابنا ، عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبدالله ( عليهما السلام ) في المرتد يستتاب فإن تاب وإلا قتل ، والمرأة إذا ارتدت عن الإسلام استتيبت ، فان تابت فرجعت وإلا خلدت في السجن وضيق عليها في حبسها .

 

6 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Mahbub from more than one of our companions from Abu Ja`far or Abu `Abdillah عليهما السلام regarding that the apostate’s repentance is sought, and unless he repents he is killed, while when the woman apostates from Islam her repentance is sought, and unless she repents and returns, she stays in jail and it is made difficult upon her in her imprisonment.http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/apostasy/chapter-4

 

 

Just out of curiousity, is this to say that people believe that female apostates should be imprisoned and that men shall be killed?

 

Does anyone actually believe that someone should be punished for leaving Islam?

 

Unless there are specific details as to how an apostate is defined that makes them out to be immoral people, these sound like horrible hadith.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Just out of curiousity, is this to say that people believe that female apostates should be imprisoned and that men shall be killed?

 

Does anyone actually believe that someone should be punished for leaving Islam?

 

Unless there are specific details as to how an apostate is defined that makes them out to be immoral people, these sound like horrible hadith.

 

Its always great for us to have an opinion but at the end of the day it is God who runs the universe not us. We don't decide what is Law and what is not. He does and you submit to it. That is called Islam. 

[iCambrian]

We may need an expert to come in and to explain.  It sounds to me like you just said, that you believe...that God said, that if a woman leaves Islam, she gets life in prison, and if a male leaves Islam, they are to be killed.

 

I cant imagine God perscribing this, unless there are some kind of un forseen details.

 

For example...what if, lets say we have a good buddy Hassan.  Hassan who is muslim for 40 years decides that he wants to be a christian.  Does anyone really believe that Hassan should be killed?

 

I dont think so.  There has to be more details that arent being given for these hadith.

 

Unless youre living in Sudan I suppose.

Edited May 16, 2014 by iCambrian

[Ali Musaaa :)]

We may need an expert to come in and to explain.  It sounds to me like you just said, that you believe...that God said, that if a woman leaves Islam, she gets life in prison, and if a male leaves Islam, they are to be killed.

 

I cant imagine God perscribing this, unless there are some kind of un forseen details.

 

For example...what if, lets say we have a good buddy Hassan.  Hassan who is muslim for 40 years decides that he wants to be a christian.  Does anyone really believe that Hassan should be killed?

 

I dont think so.  There has to be more details that arent being given for these hadith.

 

Unless youre living in Sudan I suppose.

 

 

The issue isn't as simple as you think it is. Its not black and white. It also depends on whether they go and spread their Fasad to others which results in other Muslims deviating and risking their Hereafter. I think most people who have an issue with this are the ones who fail to take into consideration that the next life, the Hereafter is eternal. 

 

As for Hassan, I'd probably give him a good whack over the head and tell him to snap out of it. ;)

[-Enlightened]

did we forget that sudan follows salafi islam?

 

in Iran (shia), no one would be given death penalty if they changed religions. I'm sure of that. There are plenty of christian and jewish places in Iran 

 

(by the way, if you are jewish, or christian or muslim, you are still considered Monotheist and you still worship the same Allah)

 

again, i will never understand why they killed that lady. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by -Enlightened

[Jahangiram]

We may need an expert to come in and to explain.  It sounds to me like you just said, that you believe...that God said, that if a woman leaves Islam, she gets life in prison, and if a male leaves Islam, they are to be killed.

 

I cant imagine God perscribing this, unless there are some kind of un forseen details.

 

For example...what if, lets say we have a good buddy Hassan.  Hassan who is muslim for 40 years decides that he wants to be a christian.  Does anyone really believe that Hassan should be killed?

 

I dont think so.  There has to be more details that arent being given for these hadith.

 

Unless youre living in Sudan I suppose.

The difference in ruling for men and women is also found amongst hanafi sunnis, the reason given was that men are combatants who have potential to cause physical harm with rebellion:

 

وعن ابن عباس – رضي الله عنهما – أنه قال : «لا تقتل المرتدة» ، ولأن كفر المرأة لا يساوي كفر الرجل في كونه داعياً مفضياً إلى الخراب فلا يساويه في استحقاق القتل لما عرف

"It is narrated from Ibn Abbas that he said, “The female apostate is not killed.” This is because the unbelief of the woman is not equal to the unbelief of the man — which leads to (physical) devastation. So, she is not equal in the liability to be killed, as is known." - Abu Laith Al-Samarqandi (d. 983 AD)

 

فكذا يجب في القتل بالردة أن يكون لدفع شر حرابه لا جزاء على فعل الكفر ؛ لأن جزاءه أعظم من ذلك عند الله تعالى ، فيختص بمن يتأتى منه الحراب وهو الرجل ، ولهذا { نهى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عن قتل النساء } ، وعلله بأنها لم تكن تقاتل

 "It is necessary to kill for apostasy to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of disbelief. Because the greatest punishment for that is with Allah. This (the punishment of killing) is for those who come with war, and that is the man. This is because the Prophet prohibited killing women, and the reason is because they do not fight" - Al-Siwasi (d. 1456 AD)

 

It was generally the public side of apostasy that was clamped down on, if it was private then people would be left with their freedom of conscience.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

again, i will never understand why they killed that lady. 

 

They didn't kill her, nor do they have a valid excuse to do so under the Sharia if she indeed is and always was a Christian. 

[Lordofgemini]

the law being applied above is wrong....

Edited May 16, 2014 by Lordofgemini

[notme]

As I understand it, the woman was raised Christian, always practiced Christianity. Her father, who abandoned her as a young child, is "Muslim" and under their state law the child is supposed to follow the religion of the father.

If this is the case, the court is dead wrong. How could she be raised in her father's religion if he was never around? Her Christian mother did the best she knew.

[insearchoflight]

For those who feel laws are harsh, remember Quran says there is no force on religion. But once you accept there is no turning back. Turning back is challenging religion of Allah and insulting by giving it up and hence punishment is death. Islam does not want religion to become a joke or light matter. One isn't pressurised to join by sword as many think. Even after apostasy there is clause for return in first case. Second apostasy is sure death.

Allah knows his laws and his creation both.

[IQRA07]

No there is no compulsion in religion according to Qur'an. The punishment for apostasy should have nothing to do with faith but rather with treason against the Islamic state. There is a difference. Otherwise we are.just.forcing people to remain Muslim.

Punishment of those born into Islam for leaving it makes no sense. They did not make a choice.

[Marbles]

Islam is what you make it out to be. Islamic law is how you interpret it. With that in mind, this so called ruling is a travesty of not only humanity but of the Islamic law of apostasy as well.

 

Unless there is public renunciation of faith by a Muslim followed by the vilification of Islam, the death penalty is out of question. And even when death is merited in the law, it is to be done before a court of law by a qualified qadi (judge) appointed by the Islamic government*

 

*To meet the condition of having an Islamic government to carry out this punishment, in Shia doctrine, it has to be an infallible Imam at the helm of the affairs. Which makes the whole debate redundant since there is no Imam, punishment of apostasy cannot be carried out by any court under any circumstances.

 

This whole thing of putting renegades to death is one big farce. The religion of peace.... :rolleyes:

Edited May 16, 2014 by Marbles

[sayedzeeshan]

If she was raised Christian then the question of apostasy doesn't even arise. 

 

As for the opinion of Shia scholars it is pretty much divided. Here is the opinion of Ayatollah Yusef Saanei from a post on shiachat: 

 

- In my view, rules regarding apostasy do not apply to those ignorant people who have not committed offenses such as sacrilege and profaning the Holy Koran and the Prophet  (pbuh); and those who lack proof concerning their living affairs and issues do not deserve worldly and other-worldly rewards and punishments since it is rationally, religiously and axiomatically unacceptable to punish an offender without having first forbidden them from committing that offense. From a rationalistic point of view, it is not permissible and acceptable to punish people for offenses they commit if they are not provided with a legal proof so as to prevent them from committing those offenses beforehand; nor will it be permissible to punish offenders if, religiously speaking, they have not received the proofs and messages of God from His messengers in advance. However, if a person belligerently denies Islam and profanes those things and people that Muslims hold sacred, such as the Holy Koran and the Holy Prophet  (pbuh), they will deserve heavy punishments and it will be quite fair to punish such a person. It should be said that issuing decrees on apostasy and the fitting punishments is at the discretion of a court of law and it is done based on the related rules and regulations, and it is not in the hands of any given individual.

[iCambrian]

I really do not think there is any true justification in killing others over religion.  Unless we are talking about self defense during the crusades or something.

 

If someone apostates, its not something they are to be killed over.  As someone said before, in a sense that would be like forcing them to be muslim which doesnt really make any sense.

 

Even if someone were to slander Islam, it shouldnt mandate life in prison or a death penalty.  As we all know, people will have their opinions.  People will express their opinions too.

 

To say that such a person deserves death is kind of rediculous.

 

I like marbles response in that, such a ruling could only be carried out by a truly Islamic government, which would require the return of the Mahdi. Only a truly divine being could ever properly judge such a situation.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

^.. Firstly, I think you mean divinely appointed*(?). There is only One Divine being and that is God. 

 

Secondly, I'm glad we all agree that there isn't a disagreement regarding the women herself. It seems she never converted from Islam in the first place.

 

Whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, the ruling is agreed upon by all Schools of Law (Sunni & Shi`i). No one came up with this by themselves. It is a ruling given to us by God Himself. These things are not for you or I to decide. But its important to properly understand the issue itself.

 

In regards to the issue involving the women, this is, once again, a prime example of corrupt people in power using Islam to do evil things. I pray the women is cleared and those responsible are humiliated by Allah on the Day of Account. 

 

I suggest you read over Jahangiram's post. After that, I recommend the following by Mohamed Ghilan: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/islam-saudi-apostasy-201458142128717473.html

 

 

Ws.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Ali Musaaa :)

[Maryaam]

If she was raised Christian then the question of apostasy doesn't even arise. 

 

 

 

I don't think it is that clear cut, but being a Muslim from birth means you are Muslim - with no regards as to how you were raised?  Her father was Muslim - so she was born Muslim - even though she was raised as a Christian (after age 6, it looks like).  So she is technically a Muslim? But her "converting" to Christianity was before she was baligh - so, technically, she was not responsible for her actions so could not be held accountable for apostasy.   

[King]

lol so let me get this straight, you heartless souls are arguing about whether she was raised a muslim or not, so you would all condone such treatment were she raised a muslim?

[lover]

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/apostasy/chapter-4

 

 

Why is it that you refer to bayynat on "Shirk"-issues but refer to tashayyu-site on hard issues(picking what you like and leaving what you dislike).

I help you a little, here is what bayynat says on apostasy:

 

Apostasy

Apostasy is the negative position a Muslim takes towards Islam. He no longer maintains his belief without any proof, and he denies Islam's basic doctrinal principles of believing in the only God, the Messenger (p.), The Message and the Day of Judgment. Facing the apostate would involve asking him to explain the basis that made him denounce his belief, and engaging in an objective and free discussion about them with a group of religious scholars, with the aim of convincing him that he had made a mistake. If he refuses to take part in the dialogue, or if he does not agree to re-embrace Islam despite all the arguments and proofs he is faced with, it would suggest that his position is one of a complicated stubbornness, and not of someone with an open minded intellectual mentality. This attitude could have an effect on the general order of the society that Islam represents the existentialist basis of its safety and stability. Thus, such a position will be similar to grand treason to the motherland. One important remark in this respect: If they cannot convince him with the arguments they make or the proofs they offer, then they have no proof that he should be treated as an apostate.

 

Similarly, if he does not proclaim his apostasy, and continues to abide by the general order, socially and legally, then he would not be punished for changing the religion.

As for Allah's saying: “Let there be no compulsion in religion” (02:256) and “Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?” (10:99) they are referring to the fact that belief or faith is a cultural and rational issue that nobody can force others to accept especially if all the arguments have been made clear. Therefore, it is a subjective internal issue while. Thus, Allah's saying: “The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, For not yet has Faith entered your hearts” (49:14) suggests to us that embracing Islam is not only a matter of the heart and faith, but it is a commitment to belonging to the society and to the practice of Islamic law in the Muslim country the Muslim lives in. It is just like if somebody is living in a country and  he does not adopt its cultural concepts. This person has to abide by the laws that apply on both the citizens and foreign residents. An apostate thus violates this general order which is not acceptable in Islamic legislation.

http://english.bayynat.org/Issues/Religious_Jihad.htm

[Hazyn]

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

lol so let me get this straight, you heartless souls are arguing about whether she was raised a muslim or not, so you would all condone such treatment were she raised a muslim?

 

As far as I know, hudud is not to be implemented when the Imam (ajtf) is absent. Based on this... No, it would not be correct even if she was raised a Muslim.

 

Had the Imam (ajtf) been present though, then yes, us 'heartless souls' would condone and support such treatment if she had publicly declared apostasy (i.e. making her own death wish public). There are reasons that the law exists. One being to prevent the birth of a new generation of Kuffar which will continue and create many more Kuffar. One should keep it to themselves if they do wish to apostate and no punishment would be upon them until they stand before Allah.

 

(wasalam)

Edited May 16, 2014 by Hazyn

[Ethics]

Why is it that you refer to bayynat on "Shirk"-issues but refer to tashayyu-site on hard issues(picking what you like and leaving what you dislike).

I help you a little, here is what bayynat says on apostasy:

 

Apostasy

Apostasy is the negative position a Muslim takes towards Islam. He no longer maintains his belief without any proof, and he denies Islam's basic doctrinal principles of believing in the only God, the Messenger (p.), The Message and the Day of Judgment. Facing the apostate would involve asking him to explain the basis that made him denounce his belief, and engaging in an objective and free discussion about them with a group of religious scholars, with the aim of convincing him that he had made a mistake. If he refuses to take part in the dialogue, or if he does not agree to re-embrace Islam despite all the arguments and proofs he is faced with, it would suggest that his position is one of a complicated stubbornness, and not of someone with an open minded intellectual mentality. This attitude could have an effect on the general order of the society that Islam represents the existentialist basis of its safety and stability. Thus, such a position will be similar to grand treason to the motherland. One important remark in this respect: If they cannot convince him with the arguments they make or the proofs they offer, then they have no proof that he should be treated as an apostate.

 

Similarly, if he does not proclaim his apostasy, and continues to abide by the general order, socially and legally, then he would not be punished for changing the religion.

As for Allah's saying: “Let there be no compulsion in religion” (02:256) and “Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?” (10:99) they are referring to the fact that belief or faith is a cultural and rational issue that nobody can force others to accept especially if all the arguments have been made clear. Therefore, it is a subjective internal issue while. Thus, Allah's saying: “The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, For not yet has Faith entered your hearts” (49:14) suggests to us that embracing Islam is not only a matter of the heart and faith, but it is a commitment to belonging to the society and to the practice of Islamic law in the Muslim country the Muslim lives in. It is just like if somebody is living in a country and  he does not adopt its cultural concepts. This person has to abide by the laws that apply on both the citizens and foreign residents. An apostate thus violates this general order which is not acceptable in Islamic legislation.

http://english.bayynat.org/Issues/Religious_Jihad.htm

 

Tashayyu is a Waqifi not a shia 12 imami site. Just to also let you know. ^_^

Edited May 16, 2014 by PureEthics

[iCambrian]

lol so let me get this straight, you heartless souls are arguing about whether she was raised a muslim or not, so you would all condone such treatment were she raised a muslim?

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed this. Thank you

[Hazyn]

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

It's still quite funny/sad to me that most people on here that are accusing others of being heartless for supporting the actual concept of punishment for apostasy, though they may not be supporting it in this particular instance, are probably going to be the ones that rebel against the Imam (ajtf) of our time.

 

Here is an example of what I mean:

 

 

You reject the law qua the law, and not because it may be unjust to apply it without the presence of a ma'soom. Sure you might say that you would support it if the Imam (ajtf) implemented it himself, but when the time comes, your true values will kick in and you might challenge the actions of the Imam (ajtf). The people that liked that post should likewise reconsider their position with respect to the Islamic stance on apostasy. When the Imam (ajtf) comes, the ahadith state (if I am not incorrect) that there will be massive amounts of bloodshed and that he will implement the hudud as it was meant to be implemented. You will probably be calling him a 'heartless soul' as well when this comes to pass.

 

The belief system of certain members on here currently seems incompatible with Islam and a lot more compatible with 'modern' moral values... = love everyone, gays should be loved and given their rights, etc... Although of course some will deny this and try to justify their position and somehow try to fit Islam into the shoes of their 'liberal'-minded beliefs... Marbles?

 

Just a friendly warning to reevaluate your position before it is too late and you are alligning with the corrupt against Imam Mehdi (ajtf) as a result of dellusional skewed beliefs, thinking they are Islamic. It seems the modern psuedo-Christian concept of blanket-love is taking a hold even within our communities.

 

If this does not apply to you, please don't take it personally and just go on with your lives. This was meant for whomsoever may find that they fit the above description, because it disturbs me to see so many of our own Shia going down that path.

 

(wasalam)

Edited May 16, 2014 by Hazyn

[CaLiFoRniA]

Interesting thing though is that the people here who condone the punishment for apostasy are living in countries that do not implement it.

[Marbles]

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

It's still quite funny/sad to me that most people on here that are accusing others of being heartless for supporting the actual concept of punishment for apostasy, though they may not be supporting it in this particular instance, are probably going to be the ones that rebel against the Imam (ajtf) of our time.

 

Here is an example of what I mean:

 

 

You reject the law qua the law, and not because it may be unjust to apply it without the presence of a ma'soom. Sure you might say that you would support it if the Imam (ajtf) implemented it himself, but when the time comes, your true values will kick in and you might challenge the actions of the Imam (ajtf). The people that liked that post should likewise reconsider their position with respect to the Islamic stance on apostasy. When the Imam (ajtf) comes, the ahadith state (if I am not incorrect) that there will be massive amounts of bloodshed and that he will implement the hudud as it was meant to be implemented. You will probably be calling him a 'heartless soul' as well when this comes to pass.

 

The belief system of certain members on here currently seems incompatible with Islam and a lot more compatible with 'modern' moral values... = love everyone, gays should be loved and given their rights, etc... Although of course some will deny this and try to justify their position and somehow try to fit Islam into the shoes of their 'liberal'-minded beliefs... Marbles?

 

 It seems the modern psuedo-Christian concept of blanket-love is taking a hold even within our communities.

 

If this does not apply to you, please don't take it personally and just go on with your lives. This was meant for whomsoever may find that they fit the above description, because it disturbs me to see so many of our own Shia going down that path.

 

(wasalam)

 

One word, you might be confusing the foretold wars and bloodshed in the reign of the last Imam with the terror unleashed by the likes of Talibanic 'Islamic' governments and with sorts of clownish judges doling out life sentence under a corrupt system such as in Sudan.

 

What would the Imam do if a woman in her hatred threw garbage on him and called him names? Will he or one of his out-of-control followers gun her down for insulting the Imam? The likes of you probably would. But the Imam of all the Prophets, the last of the Prophets, forgave one such woman when she threw a heap of stinking garbage on his head one day.

 

And which Imam, out of power, ordered the killing of apostates and blasphemers? And if he didn't, how can their Shia followers, let alone Sunnis, go on killing them in this day and age? This is why this whole debate of whether or not apostates as renegades should be killed is farcical.

 

The Religion of Peace™ has to prove it's religion of peace, or stop calling itself as such. But with followers like these...:

 

Just a friendly warning to reevaluate your position before it is too late and you are alligning with the corrupt against Imam Mehdi (ajtf) as a result of dellusional skewed beliefs, thinking they are Islamic.

 

Advice reversed in exact words :)