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Thaqalyn

Bukhari Refused To Narrate From Ja'far Al Sadiq

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Before I go into this, I would just like to clarify who Ja'far ibn Muhammad al Sadiq (as) is from a non Shia perspective:

 

He was a master of fiqh and the Islamic and non Islamic sciences, and taught Abu Hanifah and Malik ibn Anas, also teaching the great scientist known as Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan). No doubt then that he was he most knowledgeable man of the time.

 

But because he taught the two greatest scholars of the Ahlul Sunnah, who are Abu Hanifah and Malik ibn Anas, we often get claims that he was a Sunni. Although it is a foolish claim anyway, (considering most of our fiqh comes through Ja'far al Sadiq (as) and therefore we are also known as the Ja'fari school of thought) , here I will make it clear that Bukhari himself didn't think so. I will also make it clear that Bukhari had an animosity towards our Imam (as) .

 

We have collected thousands of ahadīth from him. Let us see why this isn't the same for the books of Ahlul Sunnah.

 

Let us look at what the al Dhahabi, who is generally considered to be of the highest level hadith scholars along with al Albãni and Sho'aib al Arna'ut and others of that status, says about Ja'far ibn Muhammad (as) . In his book, Mīzãn al i'tidãl , he says in volume 1, page 379, 

 

"Ja'far ibn Muhammad ibn Alī ibn al Hussain al Hashimī, was one of the great scholars of the time. He was of the of the most trustworthy, truthful, and of a great status, but Bukhari did not narrate from him"

 

Also, in the book, al Thiqãt, by ibn Hibbãn, let us see what is said about Ja'far ibn Muhammad (as), volume 2 page 251,

 

"Ja'far ibn Muhammad ibn Ali ibn al Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib was of the masters of Ahlul Bayt, in knowledge, in the sciences and had grand merits"

 

Still, Bukhari refused to narrate from him.

 

Interesting, so we have a man that, according to the Ahlul Sunnah, was a great Sunni scholar and teacher but Bukhari refused to narrate from him. I thought he was a great Sunni of high status- he was the teacher of the great Abu Hanifah and Malik ibn Anas- what's the issue? Clearly, Bukhari refused to narrate from this Imam of Ahlul Bayt and no narrations of his are in Sahih al Bukhari.

 

Let us see what Ibn Taymīyyah has to say about this. In Minhaj al Sunnah, volume 4, page 383

 

"al Bukharī doubted the ahadith of Ja'far ibn Muhammad, deeming them unreliable"

 

I thought Ja'far ibn Muhammad was the great Sunni teacher of Malik and Abu Hanifah, the most knowledgeable of the time? And al Dhahabi said he was of the most truthful, trustworthy, and of a grand status- what is the issue? I thought Bukhari was supposedly fair. Isn't Bukhari someone who loved Ahlul Bayt? No, clearly he is another nasibī in the clockwork.

 

As soon as ahadith supporting the Shia begin to come through from a man of such knowledge, then you completely block the man's narrations from getting into your books. No matter how truthful or knowledgable, if you are the Imam of the Shia, then you are automatically untrustworthy according to al Bukhari.

 

 

 

Yet, we get helpless claims telling us that these men had no animosity towards Ahlul Bayt, and even more helpless than that, we get claims that Ja'far ibn Muhammad al Sadiq (as) was from Ahlul sunnah.

Edited by Haji 2003
spelling mistake

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This is a clear-cut example of why it was key for Muhammed pbuh to say 'The Quran, and my ahlulbayt' a.s

 

How could anyone deem Imam Jaffer Sadiq as not reliable a.s , he was the grandson of Imam Zainal abideen a.s the grandson of Ali a.s the cousin of Muhammed pbuh!

A scholar and wide-spread known teacher - the greatest of his time.

 

How can our brothers, with all due respect say they love the ahlulbayt a.s when they do not quote hadiths from many of the ahlulbayt a.s (despite their obvious high status), and are not alligned against his enemies but are 'neutral'.

 

If muhammed pbuh was attacked, would you call both sides 'good' and the one attacking Muhammed as 'just doing ijtihad'?

Edited by Logical Islamic

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This is a horrible argument, do you have any proof that Bukhari weakened Imam al-Sadiq (as) himself? If you spend a day studying Ilm al-Rijal, you'll notice a lot of narrations from certain narrators are rejected not because of the narrators themselves, but rather from external issues like people around them fabricating in their name. Take al-Mu'alla b. Khunays (rh), Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju'fi (rh), and others from the companions of al-Sadiq (as). 


As for al-Sadiq (as), look at it from a perspective that doesn't acknowledge Taqiyyah. His companions were liars who used to openly insult the Shaykhain (Abu Bakr and Omar) in Kufa, they all used to pray at different times, and even the Imam (as) himself used to give different answers for the same question. 

If you were a Sunni, would you take someone's hadith in this case just to be more politically correct? 

Edited by Al-Afasy

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This is a horrible argument, do you have any proof that Bukhari weakened Imam al-Sadiq (as) himself? If you spend a day studying Ilm al-Rijal, you'll notice a lot of narrations from certain narrators are rejected not because of the narrators themselves, but rather from external issues like people around them fabricating in their name. Take al-Mu'alla b. Khunays ÑÍãå Çááøå, Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju'fi ÑÍãå Çááøå, and others from the companions of al-Sadiq (as). 

As for al-Sadiq (as), look at it from a perspective that doesn't acknowledge Taqiyyah. His companions were liars who used to openly insult the Shaykhain (Abu Bakr and Omar) in Kufa, they all used to pray at different times, and even the Imam (as) himself used to give different answers for the same question. 

If you were a Sunni, would you take someone's hadith in this case just to be more politically correct?

In Minhaj al Sunnah, volume 4, page 383

"al Bukharī doubted the ahadith of Ja'far ibn Muhammad, deeming them unreliable"

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In Minhaj al Sunnah, volume 4, page 383

"al Bukharī doubted the ahadith of Ja'far ibn Muhammad, deeming them unreliable"

From their standards, this means that those ahadith which are attributed to Imam Al-sadiq(as) are deemed weak not due to the Imam's personality and traits, but rather due to the narrators or his companions that are narrating from him who are weakened.

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From their standards, this means that those ahadith which are attributed to Imam Al-sadiq(as) are deemed weak not due to the Imam's personality and traits, but rather due to the narrators or his companions that are narrating from him who are weakened.

 

Every single one of his students, the many many hundreds - maybe thousands- who visited him and associated with him were weakened? I think it's an indirect big attack on the teacher imho.

 

Our brothers in the ahle Sunnah take the bulk of their narrations from Abu Hurairah, Aisha, Anas, etc

 

We take it from the ahlulbayt a.s

Edited by Logical Islamic

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Every single one of his students, the many many hundreds - maybe thousands- who visited him and associated with him were weakened? I think it's an indirect big attack on the teacher imho.

Our brothers in the ahle Sunnah take the bulk of their narrations from Abu Hurairah, Aisha, Anas, etc

We take it from the ahlulbayt a.s

Majority of his students if not all, including Abu Hanifa were not famous Muhaditheen and even our rijal scholars didn't recognize them as a source of narrating Ahadith from. Some of his students spent no more than a year with the Imam, while others didn't even get to personally know him.

There is a difference between being a close companion of the Imam(as) and merely being his student. Our issue with the mukhifeen is them weakening his close companions, and not much so on not narrating from his students.

Edited by Al-Najashi

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Majority of his students if not all, including Abu Hanifa were not famous Muhaditheen and even our rijal scholars didn't recognize them as a source of narrating Ahadith from. Some of his students spent no more than a year with the Imam, while others didn't even get to personally know him.

There is a difference between being a close companion of the Imam(as) and merely being his student. Our issue with the mukhifeen is them weakening his close companions, and not much so on not narrating from his students.

 

You know, i actually agree with you now. What you said does on the surface make sense. Why did he not narrate from the close companions?

 

Also, if we go back, say 100 different people from many many chains narrated that Jaffer As Sadiq a.s said this thing - they were present when he said it. Surely it holds some weight?

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I apologize lol, the 'fish' is 'fiqh' haha. Can't edit it at this point.


This is a horrible argument, do you have any proof that Bukhari weakened Imam al-Sadiq (as) himself?

Did you read the whole thing you ignorant little chid?

 

In Minhaj al Sunnah, volume 4, page 383

 

"al Bukharī doubted the ahadith of Ja'far ibn Muhammad, deeming them unreliable"


From their standards, this means that those ahadith which are attributed to Imam Al-sadiq(as) are deemed weak not due to the Imam's personality and traits, but rather due to the narrators or his companions that are narrating from him who are weakened.

No these are the personal traits of the people in these rijal books- Ja'far ibn Muhammad (as) himself was deemed weak.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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I apologize lol, the 'fish' is 'fiqh' haha. Can't edit it at this point.

Did you read the whole thing you ignorant little chid?

In Minhaj al Sunnah, volume 4, page 383

"al Bukharī doubted the ahadith of Ja'far ibn Muhammad, deeming them unreliable"

No these are the personal traits of the people in these rijal books- Ja'far ibn Muhammad (as) himself was deemed weak.

In rijal, when a narrator is weakened, a reason is given for his weakening, that is; if he was a liar, forgetful, rafidhi ect. In regards to Ibn Taymiyahs commentary, that is not the case and hence we cannot blatantly claim that Bukhari directly weakened the Imam when there is little to no evidence to show that

Most of our scholars criticize the mukhalifeen for indirectly attacking the Imam by weakening his close companions like Ibn Yazid, Zararah and others who lived in Kufa, and not so much as directly weakening him as you're trying to state by misquoting Ibn Taymiyah.

Edited by Al-Najashi

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Most of our scholars criticize the mukhalifeen for indirectly attacking the Imam by weakening his close companions like Ibn Yazid, Zararah and others who lived in Kufa, and not so much as directly weakening him as you're trying to state by misquoting Ibn Taymiyah.

 

The issue is not 'some' of his companions. This is an attack on Ja'far al Sadiq (as) - he had thousands of students. In rijãl, the few that the person in question narrates to may be questionable, but Ja'far al Sadiq (as) had thousands of students, so that is not an option. The only option is that Imam al Sadiq (as) is the one whom is deemed unreliable.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Let us think about it. If i say X man's students are all weak, his close associates and the masses who learned from him, what is the common denominator? Person X.

So basically it's an indirect attack on Imam Jaffer Sadiq by weakening all/most of his close companions, associates, etc

 

Basically an indirect attack is still an attack.

 

Imagine is someone rejected every narrator who narrated anything by Muhammed pbuh ? They may say everyone who narrated from him is weak, but we all know it'd be  an attack on Muhammed pbuh.

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(salam)

The narrations of Imam Jafar [rah] are present in Sahih Muslim and other Hadith books. 

 

Infact, the narrations of Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir [rah] in Sahih Muslim are more than the narrations of Abubabkr as-Siddiq (ra). 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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(salam)

The narrations of Imam Jafar [rah] are present in Sahih Muslim and other Hadith books. 

 

Infact, the narrations of Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir [rah] in Sahih Muslim are more than the narrations of Abubabkr as-Siddiq (ra). 

 

Walaykum salam,

We are talking about Sahih Bukhari here brother. and not Sahih muslim.

We are also examining why Imam Bukhari considered every single person associated with Imam Jaffer as sadiq -including his closest companions- as weak.

Edited by Logical Islamic

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(salam)

The narrations of Imam Jafar [rah] are present in Sahih Muslim and other Hadith books. 

 

Infact, the narrations of Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir [rah] in Sahih Muslim are more than the narrations of Abubabkr as-Siddiq (ra). 

 

Wa Alaykum Salam

 

Could you provided an example Sahih Muslim from either from Imam al Baqir (as) or Imam al Sadiq (as) ?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Did you read the whole thing you ignorant little chid?

 

(salam)

 

This speaks volumes. Please have some manners and humility, akhī. 

 

The issue is not 'some' of his companions. This is an attack on Ja'far al Sadiq (as) - he had thousands of students. In rijãl, the few that the person in question narrates to may be questionable, but Ja'far al Sadiq (as) had thousands of students, so that is not an option. The only option is that Imam al Sadiq (as) is the one whom is deemed unreliable.

 

It seems you do not know what you are talking about. Please read over what al-Afasy said, again. 

 

(wasalam)

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Wa Alaykum Salam

 

Could you provided an example Sahih Muslim from either from Imam al Baqir (as) or Imam al Sadiq (as) ?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

(salam)

 

Here is one example. 

 

The famous narration in Sahih Muslim:

 

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَإِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، جَمِيعًا عَنْ حَاتِمٍ، - قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ حَدَّثَنَا حَاتِمُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ الْمَدَنِيُّ، - عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ

 

Ja'far b Muhammad reported on the authority of his father: We went to Jabir bin Abdullah...

 

Read the full narration here:

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The prominence of the two is completely different. 

 

In fact, Ibn Kathir said the best, 'golden' chain is Ja'far ibn Muhammad from Muhmmad ibn Ali from Ali ibn al Hussain from Hussain ibn Ali from Ali ibn Abi Talib.

 

Therefore, we can see that Bukhari has avoided what Ibn Kathir describes as the 'golden chain'- al Shafi'i is therefore nowhere near that level of reliability.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Bukhari didn't narrate from Imam al-Shafi'i either, does it mean he hates al-Shafi'i too? 

 

hahaha!

 

Just to lighten the mood, I wonder if our brothers have seen that skit (by Dave Chappelle) called the "Haters Ball" (or something to that effect)?

 

If we ever had a Muslims "Haters Ball", our Shia brothers would win gold, silver and bronze medals every time :P

SubhanAllah, some of us are offended when "closest companions" of Imam as-Sadiq [ra] are deemed as weak.  They ask, "how can the closest companion of Imam [ra] be deemed as weak"?  Well, how dare you mock the closest companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw]

 

If our Shia brothers showed the same zeal toward the Companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw] (that they display for those with Imam Hussain [ra] or other Imams [ra]), then we would not have had a problem to begin with.

Edited by muslim720

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hahaha!

 

Just to lighten the mood, I wonder if our brothers have seen that skit (by Dave Chappelle) called the "Haters Ball" (or something to that effect)?

 

If we ever had a Muslims "Haters Ball", our Shia brothers would win gold, silver and bronze medals every time :P

SubhanAllah, some of us are offended when "closest companions" of Imam as-Sadiq [ra] are deemed as weak.  They ask, "how can the closest companion of Imam [ra] be deemed as weak"?  Well, how dare you mock the closest companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw]

 

If our Shia brothers showed the same zeal toward the Companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw] (that they display for those with Imam Hussain [ra] or other Imams [ra]), then we would not have had a problem to begin with.

 

 

What else can u expect from those who belong to such a complicated faith....?

 

I was once shocked to see the replies on a thread which which was about the fatwa of their great scholar Khamenei "Cursing the sacred personalities of Sunnis is haram" & the replies were   ''Did he issue this fatwa practicing taqqiyya??" La haulla wala quwwata!

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What else can u expect from those who belong to such a complicated faith....?

 

I was once shocked to see the replies on a thread which which was about the fatwa of their great scholar Khamenei "Cursing the sacred personalities of Sunnis is haram" & the replies were   ''Did he issue this fatwa practicing taqqiyya??" La haulla wala quwwata!

 

I have a lot of respect for Ayatollah Khomeini and Khamenei, irrespective of what people say.  I do not know what it is about me but I admire people of knowledge.  As for the time any learned man errs, I do not hold it against him since man is not infallible.  One of my teachers (he teaches me IT) is Shia from Iran and follower of Ayatollah Khomeini.  He tells me that the imam had no other motive but to bridge gap between Muslims.

Edited by muslim720

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Well, how dare you mock the closest companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw]

 

Because according to you some of these 'close' companions were Muãwiyah ibn Abī Sufyãn and Amr ibn il Ãs. 

 

Start reading and you'll realize that someone doesn't deserve the 'ra' label just because he met the Prophet (pbuh) .

 

The Prophet (pbuh) did have some magnificent companions though like Abu Dhar al Ghafãri (ra) , Ammãr ibn Yãsir (ra) , Miqdãd (ra) and Salmãn al Muhammadī (ra) among others.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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hahaha!

 

Just to lighten the mood, I wonder if our brothers have seen that skit (by Dave Chappelle) called the "Haters Ball" (or something to that effect)?

 

If we ever had a Muslims "Haters Ball", our Shia brothers would win gold, silver and bronze medals every time :P

SubhanAllah, some of us are offended when "closest companions" of Imam as-Sadiq [ra] are deemed as weak.  They ask, "how can the closest companion of Imam [ra] be deemed as weak"?  Well, how dare you mock the closest companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw]

 

If our Shia brothers showed the same zeal toward the Companions [ra] of the Prophet [saw] (that they display for those with Imam Hussain [ra] or other Imams [ra]), then we would not have had a problem to begin with.

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

It is forbidden to mock the companions of Muhammed peace be upon him. However in our school of thought we do not beleive all companions are pious and just, our view on the companions is identical to the view conveyed in the Holy Quran - no more, and no less.

 

1. We love those who were piou during the prophet pbuh's life, and died this way.

2. The pious before and after the death of Muhammed peace and blessings be upon him.

 

There are many companions we revere, some of them were among his closest.

 

However, as you see, in terms of hadith we choose to place a priority on the ahlulbayt a.s  to preserve the true Sunnah- Ali a.s, Hassan a.s , Hussein a.s Zain Al abideen a.s, Muhammed Baqit a.s Jaffer as Sadiq a.s ("the Golden chain").(all the way to Imam Mahdi a.s)

 

So while in the sunni school, you will find a very large and sizeable number of hadiths narrated by Aisha(wife of prophet pbuh), Abu Hurairah, that is not the case in our school.

 

We do not class Abuhurairah as reliable for a number of reasons, and it isn't because we 'love to hate':

 

1. Was only with Muhammed pbuh for 3 years

2. Narrates very strange hadith, such as Allah swt having body parts(literal), stories of Musa pbuh etc

3. Political allegiances.

 

I am not going to say we reject our-right everything , but we do put a big question mark over him, and these are not the only three reasons.

 

Furthermore, Imam Bukhari rejected pretty much everyone associated with Imam JAFFER as Sadiq.

 

We love many companions of Muhammed pbuh: Ibn Abbas (r.a) Miqdad(r.a), Abudhar (r.a) Salman-al farsi (r.a), ammar bin yassir (r.a)matyr's of Badr(r.a), among many many others.

 

It is strange why he chose to reject pretty much everyone narrating hadiths from Imam JAFFER Sadiq, considering his prominence , his knowledge, the fact he was part of maybe the strongest golden chain.

 

Won't speculate why, but it's worth reading his view on shia's.

 

You see, our view on companions is a straight-forward logical one. When one companion gets another to be murdered, we do not say (r.a) to both of them.

 

I.E Muawiyah and the murder of Ammar bin Yassir (r.a)

Edited by Logical Islamic

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1.  Start reading and you'll realize that someone doesn't deserve the 'ra' label just because he met the Prophet (pbuh) .

 

2.  The Prophet (pbuh) did have some magnificent companions though like Abu Dhar al Ghafãri (ra) , Ammãr ibn Yãsir (ra) , Miqdãd (ra) and Salmãn al Muhammadī (ra) among others.

 

 

1.  Will it be a cliche if I say, "this speaks volumes"?!  Clearly shows that all your "research" is what you have read on fitnah-causing websites.  That should be framed somewhere.  And you have the gall to talk about going back to the basics?

 

2.  Exactly my point!  That is a significant number of Companions [ra] that you can list.

 

Just a side-note.  Since you like to pass Al-Kafi off as a non-sahih volume, I would like to know your opinion on this.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AKitab_al-Kafi

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

 

However, as you see, in terms of hadith we choose to place a priority on the ahlulbayt a.s  to preserve the true Sunnah- Ali a.s, Hassan a.s , Hussein a.s Zain Al abideen a.s, Muhammed Baqit a.s Jaffer as Sadiq a.s ("the Golden chain").(all the way to Imam Mahdi a.s)

 

 

We do not class Abuhurairah as reliable for a number of reasons, and it isn't because we 'love to hate':

 

1. Was only with Muhammed pbuh for 3 years

 

 

 

 

2.  Furthermore, Imam Bukhari rejected pretty much everyone associated with Imam JAFFER as Sadiq.

 

 

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

 

Between Abu Hurairah [ra] and Imam Jafar as-Sadiq [ra], who do you think spent more time with Rasulullah [saw]?  Based on your own condition, the former gains the upper hand.  Again, solely based on your condition.

 

Pretty much everyone associated with Imam Jafar as-Sadiq [ra]?  Please verify these numbers with someone you know who knows Al-Kafi.  And I would like to add that I am quoting from youpuncturedtheark since it is refuting an allegation, not putting forth an attack.  I do not condone the website I am quoting from in its entirety.

 

Al-Kafi has more narrations than Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim combined.  The number of narrations found in Al-Kafi, by Imam Ali [ra], is 66.  In the Sahihain, it is 72.  In the 8 books of hadith of Sunnis, that number goes up to 1583.  

 

There are 0 narrations by Fatima [ra] in Al-Kafi.  In Sahih Bukhari, there is 1 narration by her [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon her and her progeny].  Do you know how many (possible) numbers there are between 0 and 1 (since you are logical)?

 

Furthermore, there is only 1 narration by Imam Hassan [ra] and 1 by Imam Hussain [ra] in all of Al-Kafi.  Sahih Bukhari contains 4 narrations from Imam Hussain [ra].

 

Imam Zayn al-Abedeen [ra] has more narrations than Uthman [ra] in Sahih Bukhari.  In Sahih Muslim, he [ra] has more narrations than Abu Bakr [ra].  Again, in Abu Dawud, there are more narrations from the Imam [ra] than there are from Abu Bakr as-Sideeq [ra].

 

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir has more narrations than Abu Bakr as-Sideeq [ra] in each of these volumes: Sahih Muslim, Sunan al-Nisai, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Sunan ibn-Majah.

 

In the main 9 books of Sunni hadiths, there are 2032 narrations by Imam Jafar as-Sadiq [ra].

 

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/narrations-from-ahl-albayt-present-in-books-the-main-books-of-ahlesunnah/

Edited by muslim720

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You are the sort of person that has the logic to say I love Muawiyah and I also love Ammar Ibn Yasir even if Muawiyah killed Ammar.

lol

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You are the sort of person that has the logic to say I love Muawiyah and I also love Ammar Ibn Yasir even if Muawiyah killed Ammar.

lol

 

If it makes you happy, fine, I am that sort of person.  Only do not bring another lie when your first one has been exposed and refuted.

 

And you always say that Al-Kafi is not sahih.  Here is where you contradict your own madhhab.

 

 

 

In the introduction of al-Kāfī, Al kulayni(the author) explicitly said:

وقلت إنك تحب أن يكون عندك كتاب كاف يجمع فيه من جميع فنون علم الدين ما يكتفي به المتعلم ويرجع إليه المسترشد ويأخذ منه من يريد علم الدين والعمل به بالآثار الصحيحة عن الصادقين عليهم السلام والسنن القائمة التي عليها العمل وبها يؤدي فرض الله عز وجل وسنة نبيه صلى الله عليه وآله وقلت لو كان ذلك رجوت أن يكون ذلك سببا يتدارك الله تعالى بمعونته وتوفيقه إخواننا وأهل ملتنا ويقبل بهم إلى مراشدهم

“Verily, you solemnly wished that you possess a book which is sufficient, brings together the entire Islamic sciences of the knowledge of religion within it, wholly satisfies the needs of the student, acts as a reference for the seekers of guidance, and would be used by those who want to attain the knowledge of religion and practice upon it by deriving correct [şaĥīĥ] narrations of the truthful ones (as) and the upright and acted upon traditions from it—through which the compulsory duties of Allāh, the Powerful and Exalted, and the tradition of His Prophet (saws) can be fulfilled. And you said: ‘If that happens, I can hope that (the book) would be a means through which Allāh will rectify our brothers and people of our religious community through his support and grace, and take them closer to their salvation.’”[al-Kāfī, of Abū Ja`far al-Kulaynī (d. 329), volume 1, page 8 [Tehran] ]

 

 

 

Furthermore, Āyat Allāh Abū Ţālib al-Tajlīl al-Tabrīzī, author of the famous booklet translated as ‘Spurious Arguments about the Shia,’ confirms this declaration of al-Kulaynī in the introduction to his book known as Mu`jam al-Maĥāsin wa al-Masāwī.

 

He writes about al-Kulaynī and his al-Kāfī:

 

وقد صرح في مقدمته بصحة أحاديثه حيث قال وقلت تحب أن يكون عندك كتاب يأخذ منه من يريد علم الدين والعمل به بالآثار الصحيحة عن الصادقين عليهم السلام . . . . إلى أن قال وقد يسر الله وله الحمد تأليف ما سألت وأرجو أن يكون بحيث توخيت

 

“He has declared the authenticity of its narrations in his introduction, when he said: ‘Verily, you solemnly wished that you possess a book would be used by those who want to attain the knowledge of religion and practice upon it by deriving correct [şaĥīĥ] narrations of the truthful ones (as)…’ to: ‘Allāh, all praise to him, has facilitated the compilation of what you requested. I hope that (this book) will be in accordance with the wishes you had in mind.’” Mu`jam al-Maĥāsin wa al-Masāmī, of Abū Ţālib al-Tabrīzī, page 17 [Qum]

This declaration of al-Kulaynī was so influential in history that it even led a group of Ithnā’ `Asharī Shī`ī scholars to use it as an argument for their belief in the immaculacy of the contents of al-Kāfī. Among them is al-Ĥurr al-`Āmilī (d. 1104), a major Shī`ī scholar of that group and an expert in the field of narrations, who staunchly believed in the correctness of all the narrations in al-Kāfī.

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fool you missed out the bit purposely where he says, 'if it contradicts the Quran, reject the narration'- or you just copied and pasted. 

 

Plus, you bring random copy and pastes of scholars who come absolutely nowhere near Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi [ra] and Shahid al Thani [ra] who said about 60% of the narrations are dha'eef (weak) . In your terms, it's like trying to compare al Bukhari and some other random scholar who isn't well known.

 

 

Nice try.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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1.  fool you missed out the bit purposely where he says, 'if it contradicts the Quran, reject the narration'- or you just copied and pasted. 

 

2.  In your terms, it's like trying to compare al Bukhari and some other random scholar who isn't well known.

 

 

 

 

1.  Wow!  Moving past your manners and occasional tantrum, it is funny to see the pot calling the kettle black.

 

2.  Do you not do that all the time?  

 

And I would like to hear you discredit al-Hurr al-Amili's contribution to Shia hadiths.  Clearly, you did not read this bit, "Among them is al-Ĥurr al-`Āmilī (d. 1104), a major Shī`ī scholar of that group and an expert in the field of narrations, who staunchly believed in the correctness of all the narrations in al-Kāfī."

Check this out.  If the narrations are narrated by infallible Imams [ra], then how come they are not sahih?  And even if we get past this point (and somehow explain it though it will fail), how come the 12th Imam does not rectify them and hand you an error-free, sahih collection of hadith?  After all, his job is to guide Muslims, right?

Edited by muslim720

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I see how you tried to cover up me saying that Sheikh al Kulayni himself said if anything in his book contradicts the Quran it is to be rejected by saying

 

 funny to see the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Great answer.

 

 

Check this out.  If the narrations are narrated by infallible Imams [ra], then how come they are not sahih?  And even if we get past this point (and somehow explain it though it will fail), how come the 12th Imam does not rectify them and hand you an error-free, sahih collection of hadith?  After all, his job is to guide Muslims, right?

 

Yes, the Imams are infallible, but the rest of the chain of narrators isn't and often has liars in it, just like Sunni books. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't lie, so does that mean that every narration that comes through was from him? Helpless attempt my friend, that is why Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi [ra] and Shahid al Thani [ra] who said about 60% of the narrations are dha'eef (weak) when they analysed the chains.

 

Hur al Amili was great, but he wasn't like Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi or Shahid al Thani

 

 

Nice try, again.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Fine, whatever you say.  But why does the 12th Imam not guide you toward narrations that are all sound and sahih?  If he is around - and an infallible guide - then it belittles him to say, "we have volumes worth of narrations but majority of them are weak."

 

Read this:

 


Al-Shahid al-Awwal (d.1385 CE) and al-Muḥaqqiq al-Karakī (d.1533 CE) have said, “No book has served the Shīʿah as it has.”  The father of ʿAllāmah al-Majlisī said, “Nothing like it has been written for Islām.”

 

 

I mean, even the name Al-Kafi (sufficient) is sufficient proof to prove my point.  

 

But having given you a dose of your own medicine, let me say one thing.  This belief is universal - among Shias and Sunnis - that a narration should be rejected if it contradicts the Qur'an.  However, you and I have to study them before we pass our judgments on them.

 

May Allah [swt] preserve brother Nouman Ali Khan who stays away from the science of hadith because he admits that he is not qualified.  Then how qualified are you?  How qualified am I?  From one of his lectures, I will bring forth two examples.

 

To prove how risky this "hadith business" can be for amateurs (like you and me), Nouman pointed to two hadiths.  I will sum it up for you.  In one hadith, we find Rasulullah [saw] asking a woman to pray in the inner most chamber/room of her home.  Using this hadith, some men try to turn women away from masaajid.  In another hadith, the Prophet [saw] says that one should get an even haircut.  People cite this hadith to declare a faux-hawk haircut (for example) as haraam.

 

Without even getting into the chain, et cetera, let us find out what the context of these narrations.

 

In the first case, the husband of the lady was obsessed with her.  He used to lead her in prayer until one day she started praying on her own.  Seeing this, her husband started to distract her, even poke her, while she would be praying.  To escape all this, she started to go to the mosque to pray there.  The Prophet [saw], sensing that their marriage could be at jeopardy, recommended for her to pray in the inner most chamber of her house (somewhere where her husband could not bother her).

 

In the second case, the Prophet [saw] saw a handsome little boy with a weird haircut.  When he [saw] inquired about his hair, the boy's parents said that they, purposefully, cut his hair unevenly so that he appears ugly and no one casts an evil eye on him.  Hearing this, the Prophet [saw] recommended that one should get a proper and even haircut.

 

Instead of issuing challenges, internalize the little bit that you have learned so that you are able to practice it almost perfectly.

Edited by muslim720

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