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In the Name of God بسم الله

Philosophy And Wahdat Al-Wujud

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Posted

Can someone please explain to me how this concept is against tawheed, rationally. I have yet to see an argument.

Wahdat al-Wujud is because it says God never created "existence" and he is affected by existence. We say, He created "existence" and is Above All but we say He "exists" because there is no other word to use. It is just a phrase.

Wahdat al-Mawjud on the other hand is... lol. That one is saying that Allah (s.w.t) is everything...

We shouldn't prove stuff philosophically, we should prove it using hadith. Philosophy can lead a mind astray.

I reject all of this because our Imams never mentioned this. And many marjas' are.

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

Wahdat al-Wujud is because it says God never created "existence" and he is affected by existence. We say, He created "existence" and is Above All but we say He "exists" because there is no other word to use. It is just a phrase.

Wahdat al-Mawjud on the other hand is... lol. That one is saying that Allah (s.w.t) is everything...

We shouldn't prove stuff philosophically, we should prove it using hadith. Philosophy can lead a mind astray.

I reject all of this because our Imams never mentioned this. And many marjas' are.

Huh? Brother do you honestly even know what this concept is? Where are you getting this information from? Any scholarly source?

Saying Lol and then trying to make an excuse to run away from the argument isn't proving your case. Your accusations and judgments are baseless.

What do you exactly mean "imam's never said this"? Imams never said lots of things, it doesn't make those things wrong. This is irrational thinking. Also I can argue against the same thing but flipped around. I can say hadiths lead you astray. Again, nothing you are saying proves your argument.

(Wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics
  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

We say Allah (s.w.t) created existence and he is noffected by anything and is Above All.

ok so which do you believe there are two intellectual outcomes from what you said either 1: God dose not exist 2: God depends on something that he created to exist. Because what your saying is God created existence and we cannot predicate existence to him. You affirmed God exist by saying he is. So your argument is contradictory. Anyways God has said he is the living and unless you can prove otherwise life and existence are the same thing. If we say God exist and created things exist and are not from one existence then we are saying there are independent entities similar in the microcosmic sense to God. This is a major issue with equivocality of the word existence instead of univocality as with the later we add gradation and indegence possibility which says God is aboslute and all things depend on him. Edited by Rohani
  • Veteran Member
Posted

In my humble opinion, I think these topics should be deleted. There's plenty of these discussions, then we is it still discussed?

Posted

ok so which do you believe there are two intellectual outcomes from what you said either 1: God dose not exist 2: God depends on something that he created to exist. Because what your saying is God created existence and we cannot predicate existence to him. You affirmed God exist by saying he is. So your argument is contradictory. Anyways God has said he is the living and unless you can prove otherwise life and existence are the same thing. If we say God exist and created things exist and are not from one existence then we are saying there are independent entities similar in the microcosmic sense to God. This is a major issue with equivocality of the word existence instead of univocality as with the later we add gradation and indegence possibility which says God is aboslute and all things depend on him.

See... this is why we shouldn't use philosophy with Allah (s.w.t). We should talk about Prophets, Imams etc... but never cross the red line into talking about Allah (s.w.t) and His Essence. Allah (s.w.t) says He is Above Everything we describe Him. We shouldn't go that far and talk about him.

I don't want to get in Wahdat al-Wujud alot, I will leave that to people like Jebreil who is a professional philosopher. I am not accusing any scholars of everything, but from what I heard Wahdat al-MAWJUD means Allah (s.w.t) is EVERYTHING. That, I cannot...

So can anyone show me this concept of Wahdat al-MAWJUD.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

See... this is why we shouldn't use philosophy with Allah (s.w.t). We should talk about Prophets, Imams etc... but never cross the red line into talking about Allah (s.w.t) and His Essence. Allah (s.w.t) says He is Above Everything we describe Him. We shouldn't go that far and talk about him.

I don't want to get in Wahdat al-Wujud alot, I will leave that to people like Jebreil who is a professional philosopher. I am not accusing any scholars of everything, but from what I heard Wahdat al-MAWJUD means Allah (s.w.t) is EVERYTHING. That, I cannot...

So can anyone show me this concept of Wahdat al-MAWJUD.

 

salam,

I don't take wihdatul woujoud as a belief as well, true, much of what is said is not coming from Ma'spumin and thus is prone to err. But let me give you an advise that makes you benefit from reading these trendy popular exciting controversial topics that makes young people feel all knowing if they can debate them.

Try to search for the roots for these claims, the above bolded part is wrong BUT try to find where the sufis got that understanding from. Most of them are interpreting Imam Ali's words.

Another advise is : Ask to learn not to argue (these are not my words but my Imams words in case you are tempted to lol at them). Imams set manners to discussions, set standards for those entering in dual debate.

Posted

Sayed al-Khomieni -

وهذا من الأسرار التي لا يمكن إفشاء حقيقتها و التصريح بها فالعالم

خيال في خيال و وهم في وهم ليس في الدار غيره ديار“. (تعليقات على شرح فصوص الحكم ومصباح الأنس ص98)

I understand this 100% because I'm Arabic, and on rough translation it is saying -

"And this (words of Ibn Arabi) is of the secrets that cannot be disclosed nor spoken of, for the world is only an imagination and a fantasy..." and the last part of his sentence I cannot translate (as it uses metaphors), it is basically saying Allah (s.w.t) is the only one.

Isn't this what Wahdat ul-Mawjud means?

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

See... this is why we shouldn't use philosophy with Allah (s.w.t). We should talk about Prophets, Imams etc... but never cross the red line into talking about Allah (s.w.t) and His Essence. Allah (s.w.t) says He is Above Everything we describe Him. We shouldn't go that far and talk about him.

I don't want to get in Wahdat al-Wujud alot, I will leave that to people like Jebreil who is a professional philosopher. I am not accusing any scholars of everything, but from what I heard Wahdat al-MAWJUD means Allah (s.w.t) is EVERYTHING. That, I cannot...

So can anyone show me this concept of Wahdat al-MAWJUD.

First essence means two components existence and quiddity or what is it when used for created things it means the what is it or limit that defines it. When talking of God's essence what is meant is he dose not have an essence like that rather what we are taught is his essence is existence and existence has no definition so this word existence is unlimited in meaning and above all things.

What is meant by essence in hadith is different it means the limit or what is it concept like creation has which God dose not have.

Secondly mowjud means existent something having existence In wahdatul wujud we would say God is the source of existence and has existence whereas other things only have existence in a dependant sense. That being said such concepts as gradation of existence which means existence at its strong origin is perfect higher and not able to be defined that is God and he supplies existence to his creation as he is giver of rizq from himself and they become weak depending entities. This means the existence dose not belong to created things and we see this in a hadith narrator by imam Ali (as) which says we do not share or posses the power to sit but it belongs to God exclusively. That said then we should understand another theory that state's that everything created needs a cause granting existence to it then it needs that cause to supply it with existence for the totality of its being.

Edited by Rohani
Posted

First essence means two components when used for created things it means the what is it or limit that defines it. When talking of God's essence what is meant is he dose not have an essence like that rather what we are taught is his essence is existence and existence has no definition so this word existence is unlimited in meaning and above all things.

What is meant by essence in hadith is different it means the limit or what is it concept like creation has which God dose not have.

Secondly mowjud means existent something having existence In wahdatul wujud we would say God is the source of existence and has existence whereas other things only have existence in a dependant sense. That being said such concepts as gradation of existence which means existence at its strong origin is perfect higher and not able to be defined that is God and he supplies existence to his creation as he is giver of rizq from himself and they become weak depending entities. This means the existence dose not belong to created things and we see this in a hadith narrator by imam Ali (as) which says we do not share or posses the power to sit but it belongs to God exclusively. That said then we should understand another theory that state's that everything created needs a cause granting existence to it then it needs that cause to supply it with 9existence for the totality of its being.

We give a definition that He "exists" because it is the only word we can use, However, only He can describe himself. And we shouldn't think of His essencem that is HARAM. Allah (s.w.t) is cpletely independant of His creation. These philosophical arguemnts will lead man to doom, according to narrations.

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

Saying God has an essence in the sense of definable things is wrong. As that attributes limit to him. Pondering on his self is not wrong as he said he is the living. and saying he exist prove that he has existence. And yes he is completely independent from creation however creation is totally dependant on him. Those hadith have a context and if they are reliable are about a certain kind of philosophy.

We give a definition that He "exists" because it is the only word we can use, However, only He can describe himself. And we shouldn't think of His essencem that is HARAM. Allah (s.w.t) is cpletely independant of His creation. These philosophical arguemnts will lead man to doom, according to narrations.

Edited by Rohani
Posted (edited)

H 269, Ch. 10, h 6- Al kafi
Sahl has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim from Muhammad ibn Hakim who
has said the following.
"Imam abu al-Hassan Musa ibn Ja‘far (a.s.) wrote to my father, ‘Allah is far High, Glorious
and Great than that one can reach the essence of His attribute. Speak of only those of His
attributes of which He Himself has spoken and refrain from attributes other than those ones.’"


H 270, Ch. 10, h 7 - Al kafi
Sahl has narrated from al-Sindi ibn al-Rabi‘ from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hafs, brother of
Marazim from al-Mufaddal who has said the "I asked Imam abu al-Hassan (a.s.) about certain
matters of the attributes (of Allah) and the Imam said, "Do not exceed what is in the holy
Quran."


H 246, Ch. 8, h 5- Al Kafi
A group of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from some of his
people from al-Husayn ibn al-Mayyah from his father from Imam abu ‘Abdallh (a.s.) who has
said the following.
"He who thinks of how and when about Allah he has met his doomed."

 

H 244, Ch. 8, h 3 - Al Kafi
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub from
Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"O Muhammad, people rationalize everything. They even speak about Allah’s self. When you
hear such discources, say to them ‘There is no god but Allah, the One and no one is similar to
Him.’"

 

H 248, Ch. 8, h 7- Al Kafi
A group of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from
Muhammad ibn 'Abdal Hamid from al-‘Ala' ibn Razin from Muhammad ibn Muslim from
Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following.
"Beware of thinking about Allah’s self. If you would like to think about the greatness of
Allah, think about His great and wonderful creations."


We give a definition that He "exists" because it is the only word we can use, However, only He can describe himself. And we shouldn't think of His essencem that is HARAM. Allah (s.w.t) is cpletely independant of His creation. These philosophical arguemnts will lead man to doom, according to narrations.

 

Correct in my opinion. All we know is, whatever exists Allah swt is not that or like it.

 

Allah is not like matter.

 

Allah swt is not in time

 

Allah swt is not in space

 

Allah swt does not move

 

Allah swt is not made up of parts etc.

 

 

What is Allah swt? He is absolute, eternal, he begets not nor was he begotton, and there is none comparable to him. He depends on nothing and all depend on him, he existence is not dependent on his creation acknolwedging his existence

Edited by Logical Islamic
  • Advanced Member
Posted

I think wahdat al wujud is a logical consequence of monotheism. Even in the time of Haydar Amuli there was disagreements regarding this concept where some feel it's like saying 'everything is divine'.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Sayed al-Khomieni -

وهذا من الأسرار التي لا يمكن إفشاء حقيقتها و التصريح بها فالعالم

خيال في خيال و وهم في وهم ليس في الدار غيره ديار“. (تعليقات على شرح فصوص الحكم ومصباح الأنس ص98)

I understand this 100% because I'm Arabic, and on rough translation it is saying -

"And this (words of Ibn Arabi) is of the secrets that cannot be disclosed nor spoken of, for the world is only an imagination and a fantasy..." and the last part of his sentence I cannot translate (as it uses metaphors), it is basically saying Allah (s.w.t) is the only one.

Isn't this what Wahdat ul-Mawjud means?

 

If you understand Arabic, please watch these:

 

 

 

Posted

Saying God has an essence in the sense of definable things is wrong. As that attributes limit to him. Pondering on his self is not wrong as he said he is the living. and saying he exist prove that he has existence. And yes he is completely independent from creation however creation is totally dependant on him. Those hadith have a context and if they are reliable are about a certain kind of philosophy.

No brother. Allah (s.w.t) is Above All we describe Him. We say He "exists" because if we don't, it would seem like He is nothing. We do not know who He is, only He knows His essence. He said is is Alive because there is no other term humans can use to describe Him. He is above us, just like how the brother above posted narrations. We shouldn't think about him.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

No brother. Allah (s.w.t) is Above All we describe Him. We say He "exists" because if we don't, it would seem like He is nothing. We do not know who He is, only He knows His essence. He said is is Alive because there is no other term humans can use to describe Him. He is above us, just like how the brother above posted narrations. We shouldn't think about him.

so are you lying and attributing a false attribute to God or is your aql affirming that God must exist? Exist means something is. And existence has no definition all we see is its trace

the 99 attributes are one in meaning. And are his essence what is not know is how high it's perfection is.

Posted

There is hadiths describing God as the light of all light and Quran describing God as the light of the heavens and the earth. There is also that he is the outward and inward.  There is also a verse that says that to him belongs the highest mathal in the heavens and the earth. There is also hadiths that say there is no difference between Imams and God except they are his servants, and that they are from him and their return is to him.

 

But aside from all this argument of what Quran and hadiths say about tawheed, I'm curious to what opponents of this theory think of morality? Is morality totally unrelated and has no link to God's essence as well? Is there is no unity between morality and God as well? Is it a totally different thing as well? Is the same true of justice?

 

I'm curious that's all. I think I'm tired of religion and dogmas and probably won't believe in a religion anymore or at least anytime soon. But I'm curious how people relate to greatness, morality, justice and love if they see God as totally separate from these things as well.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

if you believe that wahdatul wujud is haram, then tawassul to the imams is supposed to be haram as well.

 

not saying that they have the same definition, but the OP said it in a way that wahdatul wujud seems like shirk.

 

 

Allamah tababtai says that everything is connected to Allah , meaning that everything praises Allah , because it was created by Allah. ''Everything is a manifestation of his glory''

Human beings, we are created with fitra (soul) that is automatically connected with Allah and connects deeper as we pray and recite dhikr - and that is how we become ''one'' with the divine (its an expression that means that we are truly being according to how god wants us to be).  That is wahdatul Wujud.

 

I dont see where the shirk is in all that?

Posted

There is hadiths describing God as the light of all light and Quran describing God as the light of the heavens and the earth. There is also that he is the outward and inward.  There is also a verse that says that to him belongs the highest mathal in the heavens and the earth. There is also hadiths that say there is no difference between Imams and God except they are his servants, and that they are from him and their return is to him.

 

59_23.png

 

 

Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

 

 

H 246, Ch. 8, h 5- Al Kafi

A group of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from some of his

people from al-Husayn ibn al-Mayyah from his father from Imam abu ‘Abdallh (a.s.) who has

said the following.

"He who thinks of how and when about Allah he has met his doomed."

 

H 244, Ch. 8, h 3 - Al Kafi

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub from

Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"O Muhammad, people rationalize everything. They even speak about Allah’s self. When you

hear such discources, say to them ‘There is no god but Allah, the One and no one is similar to

Him.’"

 

H 248, Ch. 8, h 7- Al Kafi

A group of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from

Muhammad ibn 'Abdal Hamid from al-‘Ala' ibn Razin from Muhammad ibn Muslim from

Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following.

"Beware of thinking about Allah’s self. If you would like to think about the greatness of

Allah, think about His great and wonderful creations."

Posted

so are you lying and attributing a false attribute to God or is your aql affirming that God must exist? Exist means something is. And existence has no definition all we see is its trace the 99 attributes are one in meaning. And are his essence what is not know is how high it's perfection is.

Like I said only He can describe Himself. I cannot, and you cannot. I say Allah (s.w.t) is Above Existence and Above All. Whatever you tell me I will say He is Above it. We shouldn't limit Him, Glory Be to Him.

if you believe that wahdatul wujud is haram, then tawassul to the imams is supposed to be haram as well.

 

not saying that they have the same definition, but the OP said it in a way that wahdatul wujud seems like shirk.

 

 

Allamah tababtai says that everything is connected to Allah , meaning that everything praises Allah , because it was created by Allah. ''Everything is a manifestation of his glory''

Human beings, we are created with fitra (soul) that is automatically connected with Allah and connects deeper as we pray and recite dhikr - and that is how we become ''one'' with the divine (its an expression that means that we are truly being according to how god wants us to be).  That is wahdatul Wujud.

 

I dont see where the shirk is in all that?

Al-Kafi H 239, Ch. 7, h 2

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa and Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Hammad ibn 'Amr al-Nusaybi who has said the following.

"I asked Imam abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) about the words of Allah, ‘Say, ‘He is Allah, One . . .’" The Imam replied, "These verses define Allah's relation to His creation. He is the One, Unique, Eternal, and Absolute. He does not have shadow so one can hold Him but it is He who holds things by their shadows. He knows the unknown and is known to every ignorant person. He is only One. He is not in His creatures and His creatures are not in Him. He does not feel nor others can feel Him (physically). Eyes cannot see Him. He is so High that is near and is so near that He is far. Although disobeyed, yet He forgives. When obeyed, He is appreciative. His earth does not contain Him, nor do His heavens bear Him. He holds all things through His power and He is Everlasting and Eternal. He does not forget or amuse Himself. He does not make any mistakes or play. There is no lapse in His will. His judgment is rewarding and His commands are effective. He does not have a child to become His heir nor is He begotten so His power would be shared. And there is no one like Him."

Al-Kafi H 217, Ch. 2, h 3

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from abu al-Maghra in a marfu‘ manner from Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following."Allah is distinct from His creatures and His creatures are different from Him and whateverthat is called a thing is a creature except Allah."

Al-Kafi H 353, Ch. 23, h 1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Ali ibn al- Ni‘man from Sayf ibn ‘Umayr from those whom he mentioned from al-Harith ibn al-Mughira al-Nasri who has said the following. "A person asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Everything will be destroyed except God. . . ." (28:88) The Imam (a.s.) asked, "What do they say about it?" I replied, "They say that everything will perish except the face of Allah." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Glory belongs to Allah. What they say is monstrous. What is meant thereby is that aspect of Allah’s relation with people through which (persons of highest degree of excellence) they establish faith in Him."

H 398, Ch. 31, h 2

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Washsha’ from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman from abu Basir from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), who has said the following. "Whoever would think that Allah orders people to commit sins he has ascribed lies to Allah and whoever would think and say good and evil are from Allah he would have ascribed lies to Allah.

A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid al-Barqi from his father from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Zurara b. A`yan. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Verily Allah is devoid of His creation and His creation is devoid of Him. And all upon which the name of “thing” befalls – apart from Allah – it is created. And Allah is the creator of everything. Blessed be the one who nothing is like unto Him. And He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing. (sahih)

  • Veteran Member
Posted

Like I said only He can describe Himself. I cannot, and you cannot. I say Allah (s.w.t) is Above Existence and Above All. Whatever you tell me I will say He is Above it. We shouldn't limit Him, Glory Be to Him.

 

There is no Existence but Allah's.

Posted (edited)

There is no Existence but Allah's.

He forgot to mention that God also should be beyond "Above". Above of above.

But what Allah causes to exist.

You are associating partners with Him because you are making His creation have a share in the same reality God is in. So the two (God and His creation) are partners of the same reality. Edited by eThErEaL
  • Veteran Member
Posted
 

But what Allah causes to exist.

 

Allah does not permit anything to exist beyond himself. Anything that appears to "exist" does not do so except through Allah's will. Therefore, nothing can claim any independent existence for itself. If it could, then there would essentially be a multitude of gods as opposed to just one. By submitting ourselves to Allah, we allow ourselves to realize the illusion of our independent reality and accept our place as merely the extension and manifestation of the single Reality, who is Allah. From this point of acceptance, we then move away from the realm of non-existence towards the Existent. This is perhaps the basic principle of Wahdat al-Wujud. The question of whether this violates the separation between Creator and created I think is answered easily if one bears in mind the principle of that which higher manifests itself in the lower, but that which is lower cannot manifest itself within the higher.

 

In this way, God manifests to varying degrees through all of that which he has created, whether it is good or bad, but that which is characteristic of the created, whether we say this characteristic is good or evil, cannot be found to dwell within the divine essence. And because everything's own apparent reality subsists off of that of a single reality, whether it chooses to acknowledge that reality or not, it cannot, again, reasonably claim any existence for itself. Rather it must claim that it only exists through the existence of another and in doing so accept that its own existence is not in fact its own.

 

Some I think have taken these ideas a bit too far and crossed a very fine line into pantheistic territory or have opposed Wahdat al-Wujud because they have interpreted it as such. I think if we had to categorize it, panentheistic (God in everything) would be more proper. From a uniquely Shi'ite perspective, I think we can say that Wahdat al-Wujud is the realization of the illusion of our independence but nonetheless the maintenance of a created or illuminated order which, for all its plurality, manifests a single underlying principle and which upon contemplation by the created of this order, allows them to experience the essence of the single underlying principle directly and to submit to its will entirely through the acceptance of the Reality that is rather than commitment to the reality that in fact isn't.

 

Some would say that the "separation" between the Creator and created is illusion, but this depends on what one means by "the separation." If one intends to say that the separation between Creator and created is an illusion in that Creator and created are in fact qualitatively and quantitatively the same, this is an erroneous conclusion.  BUT, if one means that the apparent separation of the two as being two independent realities is an illusion, this statement would be wholly correct, in my humble opinion, if one means that the Creator is the only independent and absolute reality while the creation is the subjective and wholly dependent reality.

Posted (edited)

He forgot to mention that God also should be beyond "Above". Above of above.

You are associating partners with Him because you are making His creation have a share in the same reality God is in. So the two (God and His creation) are partners of the same reality.

 

Allah swt exists as a neccesity of his own existence, we exist because he created us. His existence is not shared nor dependent on us. His power and might is what enables 'existence' to exist. Allah swt does not 'exist' in the way 'matter' exists. Allah swt is the first and the last, he was before before and after after, he can not be described or done justice by human terms. We can not ponder over his 'self', we can only rule out what he is not.

 

Allah swt's existence is neccesary.

 

Our existence is dependent on his power.

 

Two entirely different forms of existence.

 

H 244, Ch. 8, h 3 - Al Kafi

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub from

Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"O Muhammad, people rationalize everything. They even speak about Allah’s self. When you

hear such discources, say to them ‘There is no god but Allah, the One and no one is similar to

Him.’"

Edited by Logical Islamic
Posted

^^^^ Yes, He is Above whatever I (as a human) can attribute to Him. Only He can describe Himself. Thinking about Allah (s.w.t) is a red line.

You know, God describes Himself with so many qualities shared by humans.  

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

Like I said only He can describe Himself. I cannot, and you cannot. I say Allah (s.w.t) is Above Existence and Above All. Whatever you tell me I will say He is Above it. We shouldn't limit Him, Glory Be to Him.

Al-Kafi H 239, Ch. 7, h 2

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa and Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Hammad ibn 'Amr al-Nusaybi who has said the following.

"I asked Imam abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) about the words of Allah, ‘Say, ‘He is Allah, One . . .’" The Imam replied, "These verses define Allah's relation to His creation. He is the One, Unique, Eternal, and Absolute. He does not have shadow so one can hold Him but it is He who holds things by their shadows. He knows the unknown and is known to every ignorant person. He is only One. He is not in His creatures and His creatures are not in Him. He does not feel nor others can feel Him (physically). Eyes cannot see Him. He is so High that is near and is so near that He is far. Although disobeyed, yet He forgives. When obeyed, He is appreciative. His earth does not contain Him, nor do His heavens bear Him. He holds all things through His power and He is Everlasting and Eternal. He does not forget or amuse Himself. He does not make any mistakes or play. There is no lapse in His will. His judgment is rewarding and His commands are effective. He does not have a child to become His heir nor is He begotten so His power would be shared. And there is no one like Him."

Al-Kafi H 217, Ch. 2, h 3

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from abu al-Maghra in a marfu‘ manner from Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following."Allah is distinct from His creatures and His creatures are different from Him and whateverthat is called a thing is a creature except Allah."

Al-Kafi H 353, Ch. 23, h 1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Ali ibn al- Ni‘man from Sayf ibn ‘Umayr from those whom he mentioned from al-Harith ibn al-Mughira al-Nasri who has said the following. "A person asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Everything will be destroyed except God. . . ." (28:88) The Imam (a.s.) asked, "What do they say about it?" I replied, "They say that everything will perish except the face of Allah." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Glory belongs to Allah. What they say is monstrous. What is meant thereby is that aspect of Allah’s relation with people through which (persons of highest degree of excellence) they establish faith in Him."

H 398, Ch. 31, h 2

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Washsha’ from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman from abu Basir from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), who has said the following. "Whoever would think that Allah orders people to commit sins he has ascribed lies to Allah and whoever would think and say good and evil are from Allah he would have ascribed lies to Allah.

A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid al-Barqi from his father from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Zurara b. A`yan. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Verily Allah is devoid of His creation and His creation is devoid of Him. And all upon which the name of “thing” befalls – apart from Allah – it is created. And Allah is the creator of everything. Blessed be the one who nothing is like unto Him. And He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing. (sahih)

Brother I have not limited Allah. Can you tell me to you what is existence and what is its limit? Again God described him self as the living above comprehension so why is it that you can comprehend him ? Life = existence to Muslim philosophers mahiya (essence) of created things is the limit of a created thing that depends on the aboslute infinite perfect who has no limit for its entire survival. You seem to be confusing the two concepts. Edited by Rohani
Posted

Brother I have not limited Allah. Can you tell me to you what is existence and what is its limit? Again God described him self as the living above comprehension so why is it that you can comprehend him ? Life = existence to Muslim philosophers mahiya (essence) is the limit of a created thing that depends on the aboslute infinite perfect who has no limit for its entire survival. You seem to be confusing the two concepts.

Yes, He is Alive in the sense that He isn't dead. However, He is Above that.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

Allah swt exists as a neccesity of his own existence, we exist because he created us. His existence is not shared nor dependent on us. His power and might is what enables 'existence' to exist. Allah swt does not 'exist' in the way 'matter' exists. Allah swt is the first and the last, he was before before and after after, he can not be described or done justice by human terms. We can not ponder over his 'self', we can only rule out what he is not.

Allah swt's existence is neccesary.

Our existence is dependent on his power.

Two entirely different forms of existence.

H 244, Ch. 8, h 3 - Al Kafi

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub from

Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"O Muhammad, people rationalize everything. They even speak about Allah’s self. When you

hear such discources, say to them ‘There is no god but Allah, the One and no one is similar to

Him.’"

yes this is right one existence is aboslute and the other weak yet in whadatul wujud it is noted that which is in line with what is said in the hadith you posted that there is no similar to him. Is there is a unity by way of gradation and indegence possibility which means there is one existence that all things need to survive.

Yes, He is Alive in the sense that He isn't dead. However, He is Above that.

define for me life? And existence? What is it?
  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

(salam)

For one to understand the actual reasoning as to why and how some of the Shi'ite philosophers and urafa believe in Wahdat al-Wujood (and perhaps not all of them necessarily imply the same meaning when they refer to it), one would need to have a good understanding of logic and philosophy that is studied by them over numerous years and then applied in order to reach such conclusions. On the contrary side, you won't be able to easily find many solid rebuttals of their views besides simple things like "this doesn't exist in the Qur'an", "the Imams never mentioned such a concept" etc. This is because in order to give a proper and thorough rebuttal, one would have had to studied the subject properly and then critique it either using similar principles upon what they base this view on, or critique the principles themselves. I don't know how much some of these scholars who present their rejection to the view have actually studied the subject matter (it doesn't appear that they have, I don't believe it is a norm to study these subjects in depth in Najaf anymore). Thus it apparently appears that they have not carried out such extensive study of the subject matter, and subsequently their rebuttals are often very weak. This is my assumption based on the rebuttals I have read, seen or heard by the scholars.

 

One of the reasons why Ibn Taymiyah actually wrote his refutation against Greek logic was because he felt, that was one of the main reasons how some of the scholars were eventually arriving at conclusions such as Wahdat al-Wujood (his refutation was also an indirect attack on Ibn Arabi). So he decided to attack the roots of their ideology, which he though was was due to adhering to certain principles in Greek logic. Even some Shi'a scholars have written against their logic such as a piece by Hasan bin Musa al-Nawbakhti (author of Firaq al-Shia) in his now lost: كتاب آراء و الديانات called radd ala ahlil mantiq (it was most probably in that book rather than a separate treatise).

 

Now if someone is really interested in reading some academic works by those who are against such concepts and views so that they can see and understand both sides of the story, your best bet would be to look up the works written and published by the scholars of Maktab-e Tafkeek (their base is in Mashad), whose founder was Ayatullah Mahdi Isfahani. I don't know if any of their works have been translated into English. They seem to be relatively active in Mashad, even holding a debate with Ayatullah Jawadi Amuli many years ago. For most average Shi'as though, these discussions and debates won't make much sense.

 

By the way, those who understand Farsi, check this out (from Ayatullah Behjat's official website):

 

 
 
مصاحبه با آیت الله ری‌ شهری
 
آقای مجری: در بین فرمایشات شما من چند تا کلیدواژه را دیدم مرحوم ملاحسین‌قلی همدانی، عرفان، آقای قاضی، رهنمود، خودسازی و آراستن روح بیان فرمودید همان‌طوری که خود حضرتعالی مستحضر هستید که این سلسله نورانی عرفان ما که از مرحوم جولا شروع می‌شود آن خضر راه که بعدش به سیدعلی شوشتری و ملاحسین‌قلی همدانی و سیداحمد کربلایی و می‌رسد به مرحوم قاضی و آقای بهجت و علامه طباطبایی صاحب یک مکتب بودند آن هم مکتب معرفت نفسی که خود علامه در المیزان هم به آن اشاره می‌کنند، من خواستم این سؤال را از محضر شما داشته باشم که آیا مرحوم آیةالله بهجت رضوان‌الله‌تعالی‌علیه وفادار به همین مکتب معرفت نفس یعنی از خدا به خدا رسیدن و یا به تعبیر دیگری خود را یک قطعه‌ای از فاضل هستی دانستن بودند یا نه خود ایشان بنیانگذار یک مکتب دیگری بودند؟
 
 
Relevant portion of the answer given by Ayatullah Rey Shehri:
 
از نظر علمی ایشان وحدت وجود را به معنای وحدت حقیقیه قبول نداشتند، من یک بار خودم از ایشان سؤال کردم که نظر شما راجع به این مسأله‌ای که شما فرمودید خود را قطعه‌ای از هستی دانستن این را من سؤال کردم چون بزرگانی بودند که ایشان هم با آنها هم ارتباط داشتند هم قائل به وحدت حقیقیه بودند، من می‌خواستم ببینم نظر ایشان چی هست
 
ایشان فرمودند که قائلین به وحدت وجود از یک جهت مُسیب هستند و از یک جهت مُخطئ، از آن جهت مسیب هستند که حقیقتاً جز خدا نمی‌بینند هرچه می‌بینند خداست و از جهتی مخطئ هستند در خطا هستند و آن اینکه تصوّر می‌کنند آنچه که می‌بینند واقعیت دارد. بعد ایشان توضیح می‌دادند که وحدت دو جور وحدت هست وحدت حقیقیه و وحدت حکمیه
 
وحدت حقیقیه که شماری از بزرگان که بعضی از همین بزرگانی هم که شما نام بردید معتقد به آن هستند ایشان می‌فرمودند که این خلاف کتاب و سنت هست و حتی اشاره می‌کردند به این آیه که کانا یأکلان الطعام، خود همین بزرگان که هستند برای چی نماز می‌خوانند برای چی گریه می‌کنند، فرمایش آیةالله بهجت است که من متن فرمایششان را در همین کتاب هم آوردم که بعضی از بزرگان هم نقل می‌کردند از آخوند خراسانی نقل کردند از آیةالله میلانی نقل کردند ایشان از آیةالله میلانی نقل می‌کردند که اگر کسانی که وحدت حقیقیه را می‌گویند اگر به لوازمش معتقد باشند این چیز نیست این کفر است و نمی‌شود که وحدت حقیقیه
 
ولی وحدت حکمیه یعنی ایشان مثال می‌زدند می‌گفتند برای اینکه مسأله روشن بشود مثل اینکه انسان در روز وقتی نگاه می‌کند ستاره نیست وقتی خورشید آمد ستاره‌ها را نمی‌بیند، این خیال می‌کند ستاره نیست نه در همین روز هم همان ستاره‌هایی هم که در شب هست در آسمان هست ولیکن تاریک نیست تا انسان آن ستاره‌ها را ببیند. انسان ممکن است در یک موقعیتی قرار بگیرد که هرچه می‌بیند مظهر خدا می‌بیند و غیر خدا چیزی نمی‌بیند یعنی خورشید وجود وقتی در دل انسان تجلّی کرد که به خورشید رسیدیم حافظ یک شعری دارد که می‌گوید پس از این نور به افلاک دهم از دل خویش که به خورشید رسیدیم و غبار آخر شد
 
وقتی که به آن مرحله‌ای از کمال می‌رسند که واقعاً قلب تجلی‌گاه خدا می‌شود انسان جز خدا چیزی نمی‌بیند مارأیت شیئاً الاّ ورأیت الله قبله معه وبعده، به آنجا می‌رسد آن وقت این تصور می‌کند که این ستاره‌ها نیستند در صورتی که ستاره‌ها هستند این حکمش است این وحدت حکمیه است. ایشان می‌فرماید وحدت حکمیه درست است ولی وحدت حقیقیه قبول نیست البته مسائل راجع به اینکه حالا کسی قائل به وحدت حقیقیه شد این حکمش چی هست آن باز یک مسائلی دارد که در جای خودش مطرح می‌شود

 

 

Also here is another answer on this topic which I thought was okayhttp://islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1090

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
  • Veteran Member
Posted

(salam)

For one to understand the actual reasoning as to why and how some of the Shi'ite philosophers and urafa believe in Wahdat al-Wujood (and perhaps not all of them necessarily imply the same meaning when they refer to it), one would need to have a good understanding of logic and philosophy that is studied by them over numerous years and then applied in order to reach such conclusions. On the contrary side, you won't be able to easily find many solid rebuttals of their views besides simple things like "this doesn't exist in the Qur'an", "the Imams never mentioned such a concept" etc. This is because in order to give a proper and thorough rebuttal, one would have had to studied the subject properly and then critique it either using similar principles upon what they base this view on, or critique the principles themselves. I don't know how much some of these scholars who present their rejection to the view have actually studied the subject matter (it doesn't appear that they have, I don't believe it is a norm to study these subjects in depth in Najaf anymore). Thus it apparently appears that they have not carried out such extensive study of the subject matter, and subsequently their rebuttals are often very weak. This is my assumption based on the rebuttals I have read, seen or heard by the scholars.

 

One of the reasons why Ibn Taymiyah actually wrote his refutation against Greek logic was because he felt, that was one of the main reasons how some of the scholars were eventually arriving at conclusions such as Wahdat al-Wujood (his refutation was also an indirect attack on Ibn Arabi). So he decided to attack the roots of their ideology, which he though was was due to adhering to certain principles in Greek logic. Even some Shi'a scholars have written against their logic such as a piece by Hasan bin Musa al-Nawbakhti (author of Firaq al-Shia) in his now lost: كتاب آراء و الديانات called radd ala ahlil mantiq (it was most probably in that book rather than a separate treatise).

 

Now if someone is really interested in reading some academic works by those who are against such concepts and views so that they can see and understand both sides of the story, your best bet would be to look up the works written and published by the scholars of Maktab-e Tafkeek (their base is in Mashad), whose founder was Ayatullah Mahdi Isfahani. I don't know if any of their works have been translated into English. They seem to be relatively active in Mashad, even holding a debate with Ayatullah Jawadi Amuli many years ago. For most average Shi'as though, these discussions and debates won't make much sense.

 

By the way, those who understand Farsi, check this out (from Ayatullah Behjat's official website):

 

 

 

Also here is another answer on this topic which I thought was okayhttp://islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1090

 

Wassalam

I've read random articles/lectures about it, i got the idea that what Shia scholars are meaning by WW is not what is being sold to the masses. Yet, i fail to see why we should stick to a controversial title or controversial writer like ibn Arabi. Also, i find the argument against necessity of existence of Allah and against the adherence to Ibn Arabi to be stronger than those pro both of these philosophies but also i find that much of the attack against both of these philosophies is weak and missing the point most of time.

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