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Logical Islamic

Can We See Allah - How I Knew Shia Islam Was Right

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Salamunalaykum dear brothers and sisters , muslims and non-muslims. Anyone shia or sunni is welcome to agree or disagree with me. This is not meant as slander to any sunni's, just as a debate to voice my views and opinions.

 

There are a plethora of reasons why i believe the jafari school of thought (shia twelver/imami/ithnasherie) is the 'closest' one to the truth. This is one of the reasons that led me to doing even more research into shia islam(not just going majalis but actually reading sources, arguments on other aspects). I have family both from the sunni and shia school, although my immediate have all followed the shia-school. I had a period of doubt several years ago, so started off by looking at basic science, using philosophy to discern that there needs to be a necessary existence which must exist by a necessity of it's own existence - or nothing would exist. I knew Allah swt must not have a definite form, a direction, coordinates, and so can not be seen in any realm whatsoever.

 

Really, this is probably the most important part -in my view- of ones Islamic faith. If you believe God is limited in form, or can be comprehended or moves, (with all due respect) that entity isn't God anymore. Infact, whenever someone wants a dialouge with me whether shia islam is false, this is probably one of the first points i bring to him.

 

I know this may sound controversial, but i read a quote that said, some sunni's give god the attributes of Man and some shia's give man attributes of God.(Not that i agree with this, but it does reflect the mood)

 

So, while i was sure about my faith (the doubt didn't make me an apostate, it just made me research), i never had that 'drive' to discern between shia and sunni, even though i went to classes and was taught about shia islam and i did believe it to be true.

 

So then came the day when i spoke with a few sunni brothers of mine and i generaly spoke how atheists think we made man in his image, and that God has no form and can never be seen. They told me it was part of our Aqaid to believe God could be seen, and that (they didn't know i was shia) only the 'deviant groups like the shia's believe God can't be seen'.

 

So then i paused. I had before this assumed it was just slander against sunni's that they believed Allah swt had a shin, put his foot in hell and so on. I did after research find hadiths in Sahih Bukhari which states:

 

1. Allah swt will uncover his shin

2. He will put his foot into hell.

3. We will see him just as we see the moon.

4. He physically moves, appears , reappears.

 

Now, the position is that 'he has a shin, but nothing like our shin, and 'we will be able to see him but the next world is different so we can't imagine..we can't speculate, we can only affirm what he says and not over-think it'.

 

All i concluded from that justification was:

 

1. Our brothers in the ahle sunnah still believe, in this dimension, the next dimension whatever dimension that Allah swt has a form, that we will be able to comprehend part of Allah or all of him. This belief, with all due respect, shatters many of the arguments philosophers have used to justify the existence of God, and greatly limits what God is, and contradicts the Quran as well.

 

 

Then i thought, let's look at what Shia's teach and i read almost unanimously without any doubt:

 

1. God can't be seen.

2. In this life nor the next.

3. He has no form, no shape, no parts, and can never be comprehended.

 

So i was amazed, but still wanted to delve further - to find what our Imams a.s taught.

 

 

The first is a video by Imam Ali a.s:

 

 

 

With regards to Allah swt 'descending and ascending' i was not surprised to hear our Imams refute the notion God can move physical distances:

 

 

 

وَ رَوَى عَبْدُ الْعَظِيمِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيُّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي مَحْمُودٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا ع يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مَا تَقُولُ فِي الْحَدِيثِ الَّذِي يَرْوِيهِ النَّاسُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يَنْزِلُ فِي كُلِّ لَيْلَةِ جُمُعَةٍ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا
فَقَالَ ع لَعَنَ اللَّهُ الْمُحَرِّفِينَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ وَ اللَّهُ مَا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص ذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ع إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يُنْزِلُ مَلَكاً إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ فِي الثُّلُثِ الْأَخِيرِ وَ لَيْلَةَ الْجُمُعَةِ فِي أَوَّلِ اللَّيْلِ فَيَأْمُرُهُ فَيُنَادِي هَلْ مِنْ سَائِلٍ فَأُعْطِيَهُ هَلْ مِنْ تَائِبٍ فَأَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِ هَلْ مِنْ مُسْتَغْفِرٍ فَأَغْفِرَ لَهُ يَا طَالِبَ الْخَيْرِ أَقْبِلْ وَ يَا طَالِبَ الشَّرِّ أَقْصِرْ

فَلَا يَزَالُ يُنَادِي بِهَذَا حَتَّى يَطْلُعَ الْفَجْرُ فَإِذَا طَلَعَ الْفَجْرُ عَادَ إِلَى مَحَلِّهِ مِنْ مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاءِ حَدَّثَنِي بِذَلِكَ أَبِي عَنْ جَدِّي عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص

 

`Abd al-`Adhīm bin `Abd Allāh al-Ḥasanī (رضي الله عنه) narrated from Ibrāhīm bin Abī Maḥmūd said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.
 
He (عليه السلام) said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’; ‘Are there (anyone) asking for forgiveness, so I can pardon him?’ O the ones who seek good, come forward! O the ones, who seek evil, keep away!’
 
And he (the angel) will continue calling by this until al-Fajr. And when it is al-Fajr, he (the angel) will return to spot from kingdom of the heavens. My Father narrated that to me, from his grandfather, from his father’s from the messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Source:
1.     al-Sadūq, Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, (Qum: Mu’assasah al-Nashr al-Islāmī, 2nd ed., 1413), vol. 1, pg. 421
Grading:

1.     al-Majlisī I (al-Majlisī’s father) said this ḥadīth is Ḥasan Kal-Ṣaḥīḥ (Good like an Authentic)
à Lawām` Ṣāḥibqarānī, 8 vols., (Qum: Mu’assasah Ismā`īlīyān lil-Ṭaba`, 2nd ed., 1414), vol. 4, pg. 542

 

 

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2012/03/Allah-descends-to-lowest-heaven.html

 

 

 

 

 

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أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم  بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم               I seek refuge in Allah from Shaitan, the accursed one. In the Name of Allah, the All-Beneficent, the All-Merciful
اللهم صل على محمد وآل محمد و عجل فرجهم و العن عدوهم     My God, send peace and blessings upon Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad, and hasten the reappearance of our Imam and curse their enemies
 

 

 

Astaghfrilillah. He probably posts on sc.

Edited by Grengo

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أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم  بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم               I seek refuge in Allah from Shaitan, the accursed one. In the Name of Allah, the All-Beneficent, the All-Merciful
اللهم صل على محمد وآل محمد و عجل فرجهم و العن عدوهم     My God, send peace and blessings upon Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad, and hasten the reappearance of our Imam and curse their enemies
 

 

 

Astaghfrilillah. He probably posts on sc.

 

 

Is that the 'anatomy of Allah' (god forbid) guy? I didn't know if those video's were meant to be taken seriously or not.

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Is that the 'anatomy of Allah' (god forbid) guy? I didn't know if those video's were meant to be taken seriously or not.

 

Frankly, I'm very curious as to where this guy buys his hats.

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Salamunalaykum

 

 

(wasalam)  

 

It is established in the explicit verses of the Quran and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) that the believers will see Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) in paradise. 

 

“Some faces will be radiant on that day, looking at their Lord.” (Qur’an 75:22-23)

 

“No. On that day they (evildoers) will be veiled from their Lord.” (Qur’an 83:15)

 

"For those who have done good is the best (reward, i.e. Paradise) and even more" (Quran 10:26). The "even more" in the verse refers to seeing Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) as mentioned by the Messenger of Allah (صلی الله علیه و سلم). 

 

The Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) said, 'You will certainly see your Lord as you see this moon, and there will be no trouble in seeing Him'". (Bukhari, Muslim]

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(wasalam)  

 

It is established in the explicit verses of the Quran and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) that the believers will see Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) in paradise. 

 

“Some faces will be radiant on that day, looking at their Lord.” (Qur’an 75:22-23)

 

“No. On that day they (evildoers) will be veiled from their Lord.” (Qur’an 83:15)

 

"For those who have done good is the best (reward, i.e. Paradise) and even more" (Quran 10:26). The "even more" in the verse refers to seeing Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) as mentioned by the Messenger of Allah (صلی الله علیه و سلم). 

 

The Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) said, 'You will certainly see your Lord as you see this moon, and there will be no trouble in seeing Him'". (Bukhari, Muslim]

 

JazakAllah khair!  Though we do not believe His Face to be like ours, seeing Allah [swt] is something mentioned in the Qur'an.  Yet we find Muslims mocking each other over this issue (like it is no where in the Qur'an).

Edited by muslim720

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An all-powerful deity would have the power to either reveal himself or veil himself from his creation. That much is fact. All-powerful means to have all the power. If he wanted to, he could show human beings his true nature. He would have to make us be able to comprehend but to say that it is impossible for god to make us see him is to limit his power and he is no longer god if he's not all-powerful.

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(wasalam)  

 

It is established in the explicit verses of the Quran and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) that the believers will see Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) in paradise. 

 

“Some faces will be radiant on that day, looking at their Lord.” (Qur’an 75:22-23)

 

“No. On that day they (evildoers) will be veiled from their Lord.” (Qur’an 83:15)

 

"For those who have done good is the best (reward, i.e. Paradise) and even more" (Quran 10:26). The "even more" in the verse refers to seeing Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) as mentioned by the Messenger of Allah (صلی الله علیه و سلم). 

 

The Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) said, 'You will certainly see your Lord as you see this moon, and there will be no trouble in seeing Him'". (Bukhari, Muslim]

6_103.png
Sahih International

Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.

 

 

 

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(wasalam)  

 

It is established in the explicit verses of the Quran and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) that the believers will see Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) in paradise. 

 

“Some faces will be radiant on that day, looking at their Lord.” (Qur’an 75:22-23)

 

“No. On that day they (evildoers) will be veiled from their Lord.” (Qur’an 83:15)

 

"For those who have done good is the best (reward, i.e. Paradise) and even more" (Quran 10:26). The "even more" in the verse refers to seeing Allah (سبحانه و تعالی) as mentioned by the Messenger of Allah (صلی الله علیه و سلم). 

 

The Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) said, 'You will certainly see your Lord as you see this moon, and there will be no trouble in seeing Him'". (Bukhari, Muslim]

 

Walaykumsalam, thank you for your response.

 

The Quran is pretty crystal clear that Allah swt can not be seen. Let us look at your first verse:

 

1. Addressing "Faces will be radiant, looking at their lord"

 

Other translations:

 

Shakir: Looking to their Lord.

Muhammad Sarwar: and look forward to receiving mercy from their Lord.

 

Tafsir(examining the arabic word used):

 

"According to Arabic Lexicon, the word Nadhira that is used in the above verse does not neccesarily imply 'seeing'. The imams (AS) have used other vereses of the Quran to support the definition of the word "Nadhira" in this verse a similar to the meaning of "Mntadhira" which means expecting, waiting, or looking forward to. On the commentary of this verse, Imam Ali a.s said:

 

"The verse means looking forward to what Allah, the mighty and the majestic has promised them. And the word 'Nadhira' sometimes means 'Expecting/waiting/looking forward'('al'Muntadhira'). Haven't you heard the saying of Allah '(But i am doing to send him a present) and i am looking forward(Nadhira) to what (answer) the ambassadors will return (27:35)

This means i am waiting (Al Muntadhira) for what the ambassadors will return..."

Bihar Al-Anwar, V90/93, p101, Hadith#1

 

 

2. Addressing 'evil doers will be veiled from their lord'

 

Translations:

Sahih International: No! Indeed, from their Lord, that Day, they will be partitioned.

Pickthall: Nay, but surely on that day they will be covered from (the mercy of) their Lord.

Yusuf Ali: Verily, from (the Light of) their Lord, that Day, will they be veiled.

Shakir: Nay! most surely they shall on that day be debarred from their Lord.

Muhammad Sarwar: On the Day of Judgment, they will certainly be barred from the mercy of their Lord.

 

Even if we take this translations, the above five don't mention any seeing at all. The evil-doers will be veiled from the mercy of Allah swt.

 

 

 

In conclusion, the verses do not make sense if they refer to seeing Allah swt, and the Quran does not in any way support this. Let us look at cases where the Quran is crystal clear:

 

QURAN: When Musa came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, he said, ‘O Lord! Show Yourself to me so that I may look upon You.’ Allah said, ‘By no means can you see Me, but look at the mountain—if it abides in its place then you shall see Me.’ When his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain, He made it like dust, and Musa fell in a swoon. When he recovered his senses, he said, ‘Glory be to You. To You do I turn in repentance and I am the first to believe.

 

You see, people back then wanted to make 'God' in their image or into a form. They couldn't handle that Allah swt by his nature couldn't be seen. Allah swt could have allowed Musa a.s to see him, but he says by no means can you see me. There isn't a verse saying 'in this life'. Musa a.s knowing the majesty of Allah swt says: "Glory be to you, to you do i turn in repentance"

 

Infact, let us look at a clearer verse of the Quran:

 

Quran“No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision.”

 

 

Allegorical verses of the Quran which must not be taken literally:

 

1. Quran: "And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."

 

2. Quran: And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned.

 

 

Do the verses mean Allah swt's face is everywhere, or that even Allah swt's (god forbid) limbs will perish and only his face remains? Not at all, it's allegory used in both verses.

 

 

To conclude, it limits Allah swt and goes against the Holy Quran to believe he has a form,can move, has a shape , etc. This is the most important concept in my view a-long with tawheed , i would say it is a part of tawheed to never limit Allah swt, never define him nor his form, nor limit him to place or distance. He is the giver of forms, and is not limited to a form humans can comprehend.

An all-powerful deity would have the power to either reveal himself or veil himself from his creation. That much is fact. All-powerful means to have all the power. If he wanted to, he could show human beings his true nature. He would have to make us be able to comprehend but to say that it is impossible for god to make us see him is to limit his power and he is no longer god if he's not all-powerful.

 

Can Allah swt create a mountain he can't destroy? You see, when we start putting limitations to Allah swt we fall into a slippery slope. Because if he can't destroy the mountain, he isn't an all-powerful God.

 

If Allah swt is defined to a form, is limited, can be comprehended, he is no longer Allah swt and he is his creation.

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6_103.png
Sahih International

Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.

 

 

 

(salam)

 

Yes, in this world. 

 

The verses I quoted proves that believers will see Allah [swt] in the next world. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Another quite good example where, with all due respect, we feel hadiths have been fabricated and not come from Muhammed pbuh - people have put in their own tafseers. Here is what i mean:

 

Quran: The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able,

 

SAHIH BUKHARI: Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’ And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, ‘Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?’ They will say. ‘The Shin,’ and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.

 

1. The hadith says Allah will come in a shape - in a limited form

2. He changes shape

3. He won't be recognised until he uncovers his shin.

 

 

This is a perfect example of why we need the Imams a.s and the pious companions (who helped transmit their hadith) to preserve the true Sunnah of Muhammed pbuh. It would make no logical, lexical, theological sense at all if this hadith were true. Allah swt can not be limited to a form, let a lone change 'forms', let a lone be comprehended, let a lone have a shin.

 

 

Let us look at other translations of the Quran, and the shia-position:

 

Sahih International: The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able,

Pickthall: On the day when it befalleth in earnest, and they are ordered to prostrate themselves but are not able,

Yusuf Ali: The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

Shakir: On the day when there shall be a severe affliction, and they shall be called upon to make obeisance, but they shall not be able,

Muhammad Sarwar: On the day when the terrible torment approaches, they will be told (in a mocking way) to prostrate themselves, but they will not be able to do it.

 

 

Clearly, shia's believe it is absolute injustice to Allah swt to even state he has a 'shin', even if his shin is unlike 'our shin', and to ascribe any form to him, let a lone him changing forms. The verse is crystal clear in that it means on the day the punishment of Allah swt comes , and people will be ordered to bow down  but won't be able to(maybe because they didn't sincerely/at all in this life, Allhualam).

 

This is a perfect example of how Sahih-Al Bukhari, with all due respect to my brothers, shows how fabricated hadiths were able to make it in and deemed sahih,

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Can Allah swt create a mountain he can't destroy? You see, when we start putting limitations to Allah swt we fall into a slippery slope. Because if he can't destroy the mountain, he isn't an all-powerful God.

If Allah swt is defined to a form, is limited, can be comprehended, he is no longer Allah swt and he is his creation.

Can god create a mountain that he can't destroy? No idea. That's going very deep into speculative theology and I am far from an expert.

I never said that god has a specific form. All I said is that if he decides to give us a glimpse of him then he can. That doesn't mean he is limited. That doesn't mean we will comprehend all of him. But the Koran says that the believers will see him. It doesn't say all of him. It doesn't say they will comprehend him. It doesn't say that they will see "his" limited form. It just says that they will see him. If I posted a picture of my face on here, did you see me? Yes. Did you see all of me? Did you gain absolute knowledge about me or even about what I look like? No.

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Can god create a mountain that he can't destroy? No idea. That's going very deep into speculative theology and I am far from an expert.

I never said that god has a specific form. All I said is that if he decides to give us a glimpse of him then he can. That doesn't mean he is limited. That doesn't mean we will comprehend all of him. But the Koran says that the believers will see him. It doesn't say all of him. It doesn't say they will comprehend him. It doesn't say that they will see "his" limited form. It just says that they will see him. If I posted a picture of my face on here, did you see me? Yes. Did you see all of me? Did you gain absolute knowledge about me or even about what I look like? No.

 

The Quran never at all says we will see Allah swt.

 

Furthermore, if you look at sunni hadiths, you find:

 

1. Allah swt has a shin

2. Puts his feet into  hell

3. Moves, changes form.

 

By even ascribing Allah swt to a form you limit him. He is no longer Allah swt because by his vary nature, he has no forms, no confine, does not move distances.

 

 

1. If you say you have seen all of Allah swt you have comprehended and limited him.

2. If you say you have seen only part of Allah swt , you have partitioned him.

 

Allah swt does not have a form, nor even 'part' of a form. You can't partition and break the almighty into segments and say 'he shows me part of his segment, not all'.

 

Allah swt is one, absolute. And vision nor comprehension can perceive him.

 

You suggested an All-powerful God should be able to show us himself. The problem is, even the people of Musa a.s wanted to see God- go up and see my responses.

 

Why should Allah swt have to limit himself to a form that isn't at all him, to come down from his infinite level ?

 

It is the same as christians arguing, 'God is all powerful, why can't he come down as Jesus/a man?"

 

Hence i said - can he create a rock he can't lift? Is it logical to talk about him limiting himself?

 

We shia's say he cannot be seen - as the Quran itself clearly says- because he has no form to be seen, no limit, no confine.

Edited by Logical Islamic

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