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Thaqalyn

Third Challenge To All Sunnis: Clay Or Carpet.

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I apologize bro, I do the same thing, excuse my comments to you, I would just like you to take what I say and present to you instead of looking at everything with suspicion.

 

No offense taken.  The "equal to" sign and the name of Imam Malik [rah] in parentheses led me to misread the whole thing.  Nevertheless, lesson learned......no more talking regarding deen while having down time at work.

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muslim720, please learn some basic arabic before you start debating people about hadith.

 

Muslim720 is a sincere person who only made a mistake in reading since he read fast. Muslim720 continue studying on this subject, I recommend writing down lists of subjects debated upon between sunni and shia, such as fadak, nazar Allah, 3dl Allah, mutah, etc and see which side has stronger proofs.

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Allah says in Quran: when you prostrates to Allah, Allah sees your hearts not your prostrations

 

LOL why bother debating how people prostrate in that case. Why bother prostrating at all as long as your heart is right. The debate is not about the sincerity of the prostration rather its a debate of what is the true Sunna of the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) 

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Sorry brother, as someone who shapes his identity as per the Sunnah of Rasulullah and not any membership to a special group or partisanship, your narrations are not incumbent upon me.

 

Same words bro.

 

 

 

 As you said, you take Karbala as a Holy City, and nearly your entire madhhab, from what is ascribed to the Imams [ra] (though they are innocent of what you ascribe to them).  

This is interesting, actually in general terms what this just sound is that Imams teaching actually have nothing to do with today Shias, rather our imams were actually followers of Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jama'a. I'm very very interesting to see historical and hadith proof for this.

 

 

I have to go far in thinking because you tell me that I should carry a little clay biscuit with me at all times.  But why not seven when sajdah has seven points?

 

 

Did i said anything about carrying little clay (also there is nothing wrong with it)? Where it does say seven parts needs to be attached to clay? When we have sayings that do sujuud to earth, in detailed hadiths it means the forehead. Do you think this small detail have not been discussed in 1400 years?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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muslim720, please learn some basic arabic before you start debating people about hadith.

 

More than learning Arabic, I think in our case, it is the intention with which you use the hadith that matters.  Otherwise, a brother like Nouman Ali Khan who can school many of us (in Arabic) would not have stayed away from hadiths.

 

Insha'Allah, I will post a few points later.

 

Muslim720 continue studying on this subject, I recommend writing down lists of subjects debated upon between sunni and shia, such as fadak, nazar Allah, 3dl Allah, mutah, etc and see which side has stronger proofs. 

 

lol, I was not born yesterday.  I have looked into these issues and it is pretty obvious who I think has stronger proofs :)

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More than learning Arabic, I think in our case, it is the intention with which you use the hadith that matters. 

 

It is extremely important. You read them in english but how do you know they have been translated properly and that there has been no distortion? You don't, unless you know arabic. Start with the basics such as the alphabet and then you'll be on your way.

 

Inshallah after a few years you will then be able to start studying hadith, and you'll be able to come back to shiachat with some basic knowledge, then, maybe you'll be ready to look into things like this inshallah.

 

وأتمنى لك كل التوفيق

 

Oh, sorry, let me translate that for you,

 

I wish you all the best.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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I apologise to mr puretichs & true sunni for posting a Ayah, my intention was not for debating or to proof anything, ya Allahu ya Rehmanu ya Raheemu ya Muqallibal qubool sabbit qalbi ala Deenik, good bye

 

Please, dont apologize. But I suggest you put in to check on your beliefs because the quran goes against what you said...

 

(wasalam)

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Salam,

I've read a beautiful answer by Imam Ali (as) when he was asked about the meaning of sujud.

He said:

"Sujud is the code of the 4 stages of human life. The first sujud means that I was mud clay in the beginning, and as I raise my head from sujud, it means that I came to the world from the soil. The second sujud means that I will again return to the soil, and as I raise my head from sujud, it means that on the Day of Resurrection I will rise up from the grave and be summoned"

[bihar al-Anwar, V.82, P.139]

Then it it very logical that we prostrate on what is natural (clay, stone..) as opposed to what isnt. If we accept this "symbolism" behind sujud (which makes perfect sense) doesnt this make prostration on fabric/cloth meaningless? And not fulfilling to the intended meaning of sujud?

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I apologise to mr puretichs & true sunni for posting a Ayah, my intention was not for debating or to proof anything, ya Allahu ya Rehmanu ya Raheemu ya Muqallibal qubool sabbit qalbi ala Deenik, good bye

 

No need for apology. The Ayah is significant and related to the case however debate is about Sunna.

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It is extremely important. You read them in english but how do you know they have been translated properly and that there has been no distortion? 

 

Well, it is obvious that whatever you present has to be put through scrutiny.  In due time, insha'Allah, I will show you how you have distorted the position of Ibn Taymiyyah regarding praying on clay versus carpet.  

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Well, it is obvious that whatever you present has to be put through scrutiny.  In due time, insha'Allah, I will show you how you have distorted the position of Ibn Taymiyyah regarding praying on clay versus carpet.  

How is your alphabet revision going? If you need support just send me a message and I'll help you out.

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How is your alphabet revision going? If you need support just send me a message and I'll help you out.

 

I am a little past that since Farsi uses the same alphabets.  Thank you for the offer.  I will consult you when needed.

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Our brother has quoted Ibn Qayyim, a student of Ibn Taymiyyah, to strengthen his case.  But let us find out what Ibn Taymiyyah believed regarding this matter, not his student or what brother Thaqalyn wants to pass off as the work of Ibn Taymiyyah or his student.

 

I read elsewhere that there is a fatwa by Ibn Taymiyyah which says, "prayer on a mat is an innovation and people should pray on earth." (Mujmoo al Fatawa by Ibn Taymeeya Volume 22 page163)

 

This is used by our Shia brothers to substantiate their case in favor of using turbah.  Now, those who have read the book say that the key word is "soil", not turbah, and later in the same fasl, Ibn Taymiyyah mentions wiping shoes with 'soil' if they have Najasah on them.  Would our Shia brothers also permit 'soil' to be translated as "turbah" in this case too?  Would Shias then wipe Najasah off their shoes with their "turbah"?

 

In the same discussion, Ibn Taymiyyah says, "And there is no dispute between the people of knowledge regarding the permissibility of prayer and prostration upon bedding when it is from the earth like palm leaves held with string, straw mats, and the like, and they only disputed about the dislike of that upon that which was not from the earth, like leather carpets from the skin of cattle, carpets, and colored carpets of wool; and the majority of the people of knowledge authorized that as well and it is the school of the people of Hadith like ash-Shafi’ee and Ahmad, and the school of the people of al-Kufah, like Abu Hanifah and others.  And they demonstrated the permissibility of that also through the Hadith of A’ishah RA for indeed her bed was not from the earth and it was only out of leather or wool." [Majmu’ al-Fatawa 22/175]

 

What seems to be the biggest objection of Ibn Taymiyyah to praying on carpets is that it is done on the basis that praying on the ground exposes a person to Najasah.  His argument against that occupies several pages of the discussion.  As for carpeting the Masajid then he does not back off of the argument that this is an innovation.  However that does not necessarily mean that anyone who prays in a carpeted Masjid is sinful or guilty of innovation.

 

In fact at the end of the discussion, the question is raised about the one who puts a carpet in a place in the Masjid and someone else gets there first, should he remove the carpet and pray in the person's place or not?  The short of it is that it should be removed and I think this gives some perspective to what Ibn Taymiyyah is talking about.  Individual carpets that are brought with a person to the Masjid for personal use, due to being afraid of the 'dirtiness' of the ground, and wanting to avoid contact of the forehead with the ground (is Ibn Taymiyyah's objection).

 

So to bring up Ibn Taymiyyah or his student is not a proof for the Shias to strengthen their position.  In fact, Ibn Taymiyyah's argument is even worse for them because not only do they put an obstacle in between themselves and the regular ground but they consider the 'turbah' as having sanctity as well as superiority over praying on the regular ground.

 

May Allah [swt] bless brother Abu Najm Muhammad (whoever and wherever he is) for setting the record straight.  His refutation (most of which I have borrowed) can be found at http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=16922

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