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In the Name of God بسم الله

A Massive Challenge To Absolutely Every Sunni...

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Salaam

It is also mentioned in Hadith al sahihyain that Prophet S.a.w said after Me follow Quran and My Sunnah, in sunnah of Prophet S.a.w itself comes everything even method of loving Ahl al'Bait, which Ahl al'sunnah wa jamah follow till now there are also some deviated sects which loves only Sahaba or only Ahl al'Bait.

Shukran

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Salaam

It is also mentioned in Hadith al sahihyain that Prophet S.a.w said after Me follow Quran and My Sunnah, in sunnah of Prophet S.a.w itself comes everything even method of loving Ahl al'Bait, which Ahl al'sunnah wa jamah follow till now there are also some deviated sects which loves only Sahaba or only Ahl al'Bait.

Shukran

 

Here is a logical refutation of why it could not be the word 'Sunnah'. Allah(s.w.a) is just and Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) only speaks the truth. If he said, follow X and Y and you will never go astray, that is a huge statement and a clear ayat for us. Although we agree what the Quran is, there are many, many sects in Islam and each one of them will say 'We are following the Sunnah of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). So there is not agreement between muslims on what is 'Sunnah'. So how could it be that if we follow, the 'Sunnah', we will never go astray. Which Sunnah ? 

 

The Ahl Al Bayt(a.s), there is much more and almost universal agreement on who are the Ahl Al Bayt(a.s). The only difference on this issue between muslims is does the Ahl Al Bayt include the wives of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) or not. Other than that there is agreement. So exclusively from a logical perspective, 'Ahl Al Bayt' is much more likely. Also, if you look at the narrations, there are many more narrators who say 'Ahl Al Bayt' vs. 'Sunnah'. 

 

So we agree what X is. If Y=Sunnah, then the statement doesn't make sense. However, if Y=Ahl Al Bayt, then the hadith makes sense. And we know there is an X and a Y since every narration includes an X and a Y both. We need to use our aql on this. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Salaam

It is also mentioned in Hadith al sahihyain that Prophet S.a.w said after Me follow Quran and My Sunnah, in sunnah of Prophet S.a.w itself comes everything even method of loving Ahl al'Bait, which Ahl al'sunnah wa jamah follow till now there are also some deviated sects which loves only Sahaba or only Ahl al'Bait.

Shukran

You have know knowledge. 'Quran and Sunnah' It isn't even in the top six sahih (sihah al Sittah) books of yours, and its narrated with no chain of narrators and is extremely weak like your knowledge. Just look up how authentic it is and you'll find the truth. Even Uthman Khamees, one of the biggest wahaabis in the world admitted its weak. 

This can be easily refuted.

That's the challenge. If you think you can I welcome it.

Edited by Thaqalyn
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Salaam

It is also mentioned in Hadith al sahihyain that Prophet S.a.w said after Me follow Quran and My Sunnah, in sunnah of Prophet S.a.w itself comes everything even method of loving Ahl al'Bait, which Ahl al'sunnah wa jamah follow till now there are also some deviated sects which loves only Sahaba or only Ahl al'Bait.

Shukran

 

Please quote this where you brought up from

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Please quote this where you brought up from

It is from the Muwatta' of Malik and it doesn't even have a chain of narrators. Its laughable how he narrates it. He says 'It was informed to me... . I think it is the only narration in his book without a chain. It is a clear fabrication.

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^ i had readen that Hadith in Sahih Bukhari hardcopy, not from any site that runs by google shaikhs, Insha'Allah i will find it and post

It is not in any of the sahihain or Sihah al Sittah brother. The only thaqalayn hadith that is present is 'I leave behind for you two weighty the things, the Quran and my progeny Ahlul Bayt, if you hold on to them, you will never go astray after me'- in Sahih Muslim and Jami' Tirmidhi.

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Brilliant post, may Allah swt reward you!

 

Sunnis say 'But Mawla has so many meanings'

 

Ok, lets assume that:

 

1. Muhammed pbuh put the word in context.

 

Not only by using Awla before that, but...

 

If Muhammed pbuh said 'WHOMSOEVERS MAWLA I AM'.

 

Now tell me my sunni brothers and sisters, if Mawla can even mean servant, would Muhammed pbuh say 'whomsoevers servant i am'? , Therefore it is only logical that so many alternative meanings of the word Mawla are immediatly discounted.

 

What relationship did Muhammed pbuh have to the muslims? He was their Master.

 

Furthermore, Why would Hazrat Umar say 'congratultions today you become'.

 

If it really was a dispute, why did the Prophet Pbuh not call the people disputing privately, why stop tens and thousands?

 

Why not say 'I hear some among you hate Ali, but you muslims are brothers of one another'.

 

Hazrat Umar's reply clearly indicates it was so much more than that.

 

Think:

 

1. If Ali a.s was mistreated and this was just to clear his name - why would Hazrat Umar congratulate him? Congratulate him for what, something he already was?


It is not in any of the sahihain or Sihah al Sittah brother. The only thaqalayn hadith that is present is 'I leave behind for you two weighty the things, the Quran and my progeny Ahlul Bayt, if you hold on to them, you will never go astray after me'- in Sahih Muslim and Jami' Tirmidhi.

 

 

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."

 

Sunni Reference:

 

• Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.


It is not in any of the sahihain or Sihah al Sittah brother. The only thaqalayn hadith that is present is 'I leave behind for you two weighty the things, the Quran and my progeny Ahlul Bayt, if you hold on to them, you will never go astray after me'- in Sahih Muslim and Jami' Tirmidhi.

 

he Messenger of Allah (S) said: "I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to BOTH of them you shall not go astray after me. They are, the Book of Allah, and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The Merciful has informed me that These two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

 

Sunni references:

1. Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328, report of 30+ companions, with reference to several chains of transmitters.

2. al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, Chapter of "Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, pp 109,110,148,533 who wrote this tradition is authentic (Sahih) based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim).

3. Sunan, by Daarami, v2, p432

4. Musnad, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 14,17,26,59, v4, pp 366,370-372, v5, pp 182,189,350,366,419

5. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p585, Tradition #990

6. al-Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 21,30

Edited by Logical Islamic
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The hadith of Quran and Sunnah is actually quoted in Sahih Burkhari, i have read it myself. However, the problem is its quoted with out chain of narrators.

Allah will judge you because you know and I know it isn't in there.

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The hadith of Quran and Sunnah is actually quoted in Sahih Burkhari, i have read it myself. However, the problem is its quoted with out chain of narrators.

 

 

^ Since when is a hadith without isnaad and which only exists in your personal memory of any use at all in a debate like this? Why don't you find it and quote your scholars' opinions on that hadith instead? Might work.

Edited by Darth Vader
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(Salam)

Why do you, Sunni brothers, care more about a few narrations which state the word Sunnah rather than following the authentic Hadiths?

Okay, let's say it was Sunnah. Then what? You think our Prophet (pbuh) wanted people to follow his Sunnah & his Sunnah???

What I mean is, well, there's the famous narration where a companion of our Prophet (pbuh) asks Ayeesha about the Character of our Prophet (pbuh) . & Ayeesha replied: have you not read Al Qur'an? Whatever is in Al Qur'an is his character.

(In order words, his Sunnah) I think You all have enough sense to know that.

So Why would our Prophet (pbuh) ask us to hold on to the same thing?

Also, Sunnah is a vast term. Our Prophet (pbuh) had always been clear in his meanings of what he meant. He (pbuh) taught us things a father would teach to his little child by spoon feeding. Our Prophet (pbuh) clearly stated Al Qur'an & the Ahl Al Bayt (as)

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The hadith is ridiculously weak anyway brothers. There is no chain. Look at the corruption. Their main hadith is very weak, while our main hadith is in their books and is mutawatir. Before anyone challenges that, al Dhahabi who is one of the biggest wahaabis in history and supposedly a genius in the field of hadith, the student of ibn Taymiyyah who is probably the biggest wahabi in history, had to write a whole book about its authenticity. Thats how many sahih chains there are. Ok, so, 'Quran and Sunnah' has no chain, while 'Quran and progeny Ahlul Bayt' has

1. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal narrated it from 40 chains;

2. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari in more than 70 chains;
3. Abu Sa’id al-Sijistani from 120 chains;
4. Abu Bakir al-Jaabi from 125 chains;
5. al-Amir Muhammad al-Yamani (2nd century) had 150 chains;
6. al-Dhahabi has written a complete book on its chains and passed a verdict that it is Mutawatir; why do you accept the lies of your sheikhs when one of your best hadith scholars of all time wrote a whole book on it saying it is mutawatir?
7. Abul Abbas Ibn `Uqdah has narrated it through 150 chains.

 

 

The biggest hadith lie in the history of this religion is the 'Quran and Sunnah' hadith. Even if it was narrated, who do we get the Sunnah from? If it said, 'Quran and the first couple of Caliphs' then ok. But it doesn't. It says 'Quran and progeny Ahlul Bayt' so the authority after Rasullallah (pbuh) is the Quran and his progeny. The truth is so clear.

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Allah will judge you because you know and I know it isn't in there.

 

 

Allah swt will judge me for reading a Hadith in Sahih Burkhari??  Well thats something that i have never come across before! Anyway, have you personally read every edition  of Sahih Burkhari ? That has  been published  over 200 years?? Are you even aware over the  past 100 years or so, that Sunni have been removing Hadith from there own books Including Sahih Burkhari?? Just because you haven't seen it or read it, it dose not mean it did not exist. 
 
I will find you  that  extract from Sahih Burkhari.
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Why don't you find it and quote YOUR scholars' opinions on that hadith instead? 

 

 

 
 
 
Your scholar?? What the hell are you implying? If any Shia person or Ullmas  quote's Sunni Scholars, they become their scholars ? It's quite shallow  of you to make such comment!!!
Edited by power
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Allah swt will judge me for reading a Hadith in Sahih Burkhari??  Well thats something that i have never come across before! Anyway, have you personally read every edition  of Sahih Burkhari ? That has  been published  over 200 years?? Are you even aware over the  past 100 years or so, that Sunni have been removing Hadith from there own books Including Sahih Burkhari?? Just because you haven't seen it or read it, it dose not mean it did not exist. 
 
I will find you  that  extract from Sahih Burkhari.

 

I swear by Allah it is not in Sahih Bukhari. It is an extremely weak hadith with no chains and is not in any of the 'Sihah al Sittah'

 

I have never seen such a liar. Either you innocently made a mistake, or you are purposely trying to deceive readers. Stop embarrassing yourself and when you find it isn't there I strongly advise you to apologize to everyone you've lied to.

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@power: I wasn't implying anything. You do have some scholar(s) whom you follow, any way, don't you. Or did you just get guilty conscious?

 

I see you have 1500+ posts and you don't even know that in a debate you have to produce evidence to back up your claims. Claims that you have typed out in bold letters. Why are you wasting everyone's time if you don't have anything? You bit off more than you could chew. Now either act or get off the stage. No use playing drama queen because this isn't a debate about feminist rights.

 

 

MODS: If this man fails to produce anything, please delete his garbage from this otherwise fine thread. Thank you.

Edited by Darth Vader
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I swear by Allah it is not in Sahih Bukhari. It is an extremely weak hadith with no chains and is not in any of the 'Sihah al Sittah'

 

I have never seen such a liar. Either you innocently made a mistake, or you are purposely trying to deceive readers. Stop embarrassing yourself and when you find it isn't there I strongly advise you to apologize to everyone you've lied to.

 

 

Brother, Thaqalyn please except my humble apologise. I have just been informed that no such Hadith existed in Sahih Bukhari. However, my confusion was that: In the last khutba by Rasulallah it was mentioned Quran and Sunna in one of the Sahih Sitttah.

 

So please except my humble apologise.

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Brother, Thaqalyn please except my humble apologise. I have just been informed that no such Hadith existed in Sahih Bukhari. However, my confusion was that: In the last khutba by Rasulallah it was mentioned Quran and Sunna in one of the Sahih Sitttah.

 

So please except my humble apologise.

 

Not a problem brother, I accept your apology. But please recognize it isn't in any of the Sihah al Sittah either. 

Edited by Thaqalyn
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Not a problem brother, I accept your apology. But please recognize it isn't in any of the Sihah al Sittah either. 

 

 

Brother, it would be interesting if you can post the last Khutba al Wada, to show our Sunni brethren that: Rasulallah mentioned Quran and AHLUL -BAYHT a.s was mentioned, and not Quran and Sunna in Khutba al Wada, in your own time 

 

Jazakallah khair.

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@power: I wasn't implying anything. You do have some scholar(s) whom you follow, any way, don't you. Or did you just get guilty conscious?

 

I see you have 1500+ posts and you don't even know that in a debate you have to produce evidence to back up your claims. Claims that you have typed out in bold letters. Why are you wasting everyone's time if you don't have anything? You bit off more than you could chew. Now either act or get off the stage. No use playing drama queen because this isn't a debate about feminist rights.

 

 

MODS: If this man fails to produce anything, please delete his garbage from this otherwise fine thread. Thank you.

 

 

Darth Vader, do you enjoy  to belittle people? Because surly this was not the teachings of Ahlul Bayht a.s

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(Salam)

Dear brother, of all the knowledgable Sunni brothers that I've came across, they all firmly believe in the hadith. Even Sunni scholars make awareness about this hadith. The only problem is they don't do anything more about it than Just believing in it. It's just a part of their life like: 'Okay , fine, it's true. Now let's talk about something else.' It has no importance at all in their lives. That's hurtful & upsetting. :cry:

Edited by Shian e Ali
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But the real issue is they purposely misinterpret it, and in this I gave a huge list of scholars who admit that mawla in this context means first in authority, and that there were over 100,000 people present, and that Abu Bakr and Umar gave the pledge of allegiance, which clearly shows the conspiracy that happened against Imam Ali (as) . May Allah guide them towards the clear truth. 

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