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14ers

Marital Rape; A Husband's Right

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Physical force is wrong. Threatening and coercing are also wrong. If a man does any of these to his wife, he will ruin his family. Even if it is "halal" it is stupid.

It will never be halal. No where in the quran al kareem does it say you can force your wife. Anything that's forced upon a person will damage that person... Some men need to be gentle with their woman and not act like animals. And if your wife treats it as a tool then go question yourself why. Maybe you need to act more like a human and do all your islamic chores before you demand for your rights....

It's pathitic that some people need to be told whats allowed and not allowed. You dont need a fatwa to know it's wrong.

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Sami II, if you want to make flippant comments, don't take offence and report the replies of others when they reply in kind or reply in a forthright manner, for what is a serious topic.

Edited by Haji 2003

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I am so tired of your name calling - unless you want a bunch of ugly terms being thrown your way to do with misogyny or penile deficits, I would give it a break.

call me all u want dude! a=ur the woman u thinks it wrong when a man refuses $$$$ but its coool when a woman says no to sex even if it wont harm her. call me all the nasties u want. but u know WHAT? i equalized the debate !!!! i said both are wrong. never agin shuld a man be told its cool to .... stop sex cause he will say its the same as stopping cash. i pat my own back. i pat it with the grace of a slow flying swift that caresses the clouds like a fisherman with a flying lure. i iz smart.

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call me all u want dude! a=ur the woman u thinks it wrong when a man refuses $$$$ but its coool when a woman says no to sex even if it wont harm her. call me all the nasties u want. but u know WHAT? i equalized the debate !!!! i said both are wrong. never agin shuld a man be told its cool to .... stop sex cause he will say its the same as stopping cash. i pat my own back. i pat it with the grace of a slow flying swift that caresses the clouds like a fisherman with a flying lure. i iz smart.

 

LOL - You are lower on the evolutionary scale than a non vascular plant - the thought that you have the potential to breed is quite disturbing. 

Edited by Maryaam

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lolz u called me misogynistic in the theft topic even when i am one of few men here who is against marital rape 101%. lolz u da 1 hu haz low iqz. what makes me a misonginist??? cause i said women should not withhold sex when it wont harm themm???? giggle out boisterously my good fellow.

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lolz u called me misogynistic in the theft topic even when i am one of few men here who is against marital rape 101%. lolz u da 1 hu haz low iqz. what makes me a misonginist??? cause i said women should not withhold sex when it wont harm themm???? giggle out boisterously my good fellow.

 

Read your posts and see if you can figure it out.   :wacko:

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Sami II, if you want to make flippant comments, don't take offence and report the replies of others when they reply in kind or reply in a forthright manner, for what is a serious topic. 

 

oh yes my favourite mod , who is always non biased and always fair , much like the rest of the mods , (except br Abu Hadi, the good looking mod )

It's going to get messy here.

Salam,

More like another reason why woman delay marriage...

If material rape is okay with some of you then you should go check your self's out. That's mainly at the ones that try to justife the act and make it seem fine because you know a man can get what he want's when he want's....

Honestly,some of you sound like under cover rapists..

salam

women delay marriage because they have forgotten how to be women.

they pursue useless educations , useless careers and prefer to be "raped" economically.

As for this feminist created "marital rape ", it doesn't exist in :Islam.

When a :momin and a :Mominad gets married , they are protected by a band of :Malikas.

They have :Allah swt on their side and their marriage is truly blessed.

So there's no fear on either party .

The rest of you well , leave that to the system that harvests and "rapes" humanity .

 

Shakir: Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women

24:26

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lolz u called me misogynistic in the theft topic even when i am one of few men here who is against marital rape 101%. lolz u da 1 hu haz low iqz. what makes me a misonginist??? cause i said women should not withhold sex when it wont harm themm???? giggle out boisterously my good fellow.

You make it sound like this thread is about women withholding sex in order to manipulate their husbands for whatever reasons they might have.

 

Nice try. That wasn't the thrust of the OP, as far as I know, nor was it mine with my original criticisms. There's no denying that that happens, but if and when it does, it's symptomatic of a much larger problem in the relationship that, obviously, the couple needs to resolve.

 

My aim was to clarify that women, or men, don't have an on/off button that they press for instant sexual arousal so that they can be ready to service their partner's sexual urges at any given time. Trust, ongoing consent, and sexual arousal are fundamental elements of healthy sexual activity which itself is a basic component of a healthy relationship. Our underlying physiology is affected by all sorts of factors, i.e., stress, fatigue, attraction, anger, shyness, fear, distaste for a particular activity or location etc. Without being too graphic or down into the weeds of human biology, I'm sure you can understand people don't just "withhold sex".

 

The notion that women are obligated to sexual satisfy their husbands except in limited circumstances is an elementary and misogynistic understanding of our religious teachings. If you had carefully read the initial posts, that's what the debate was about, and in fact 14ers made some welcome changes to the article afterwards. When we know how much emphasis the Prophet himself has placed on healthy sexual activity and relationships, how can you justify the expectation that a wife should gratify her husband even though her physical and psychological state isn't ready for it?

 

As for there being "no spousal rape in Islam", again, nice play of words. No one is saying Islam allows, encourages or validates that. What we are saying is that for husband to proceed ahead with sexual activity if any of the above the elements--sexual arousal, ongoing consent--are missing, can and does have severe consequences on the wife's well being and constitutes rape. This includes situations where the husband thinks the woman has "no valid excuse to withhold sex," proceeding ahead with sex without consent is rape. What the husband should be doing instead is resolving whatever underlying issues there may be.

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oh yes my favourite mod , who is always non biased and always fair , much like the rest of the mods , (except br Abu Hadi, the good looking mod )

It's going to get messy here.

24:26

Samii.. Yup we have some imbalanced bullies here who are bad for SC :) Edited by Waiting for HIM

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call me all u want dude! a=ur the woman u thinks it wrong when a man refuses $$$$ but its coool when a woman says no to sex even if it wont harm her. call me all the nasties u want. but u know WHAT? i equalized the debate !!!! i said both are wrong. never agin shuld a man be told its cool to .... stop sex cause he will say its the same as stopping cash. i pat my own back. i pat it with the grace of a slow flying swift that caresses the clouds like a fisherman with a flying lure. i iz smart.

 

It's okay man. Stop worrying about such things. No self respecting woman would have you anyway with this attitude and grammar errors..

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A parable of the question under discussion would be "Is it okay to kick the vending machine if it doesn't eject coke after you put your money into it?".

 

IMO, no. Why kick it? Would you keep kicking it each time it jams up? Such a vending machine is obviously broken and it should simply be sent to the junkyard and replaced.

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Deewan

 

 

 

These bolded parts don't mean much.

The first - i.e. elementary - is either irrelevant or empty. 

If you mean by it that the view is the basic default view, i.e. it's the view of the patriarchal past, then this is irrelevant because it there are many views held in the patriarchal past about men/women issues that are True, e.g. that polygamy is not wrong per se.

If you mean by it that the view is simplistic, then this is empty, because you are merely saying you disapprove of the view because you consider it does not account for all factors.

The second - i.e. misogynistic - is either False or a bad metaphor.

There is nothing in that notion that implies a male hatred for women.

In fact, the entire premise of the husband/wife act is that the man desires the woman and wants to be with her intimately.

I didn't realize we were into textual analysis. But here goes...

 

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

 

Elementary: Relating to the rudiments of a subject; Of the most basic kind; Straightforward and uncomplicated

Misogynist: A person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women; adjective: misogynistic

 

So let's reconsider the statement I made: "The notion that women are obligated to sexual satisfy their husbands except in limited circumstances is an elementary and misogynistic understanding of our religious teachings." In other words, the belief that women are obligated to sexually satisfy their husbands except in limited circumstances is both a simplistic interpretation of our faith and a perversion thereof arising from prejudices that women have had to endure everywhere, not just among Muslims. To put it more bluntly, anyone of the opinion that a husband cannot rape his wife has a simplistic and prejudiced understanding of religion.

 

I expect an astute observer of semantics like you to notice that there has been ample evidence of such views in this very thread, several individuals have questioned how it's possible for a husband to rape his own wife...after all she is his wife? It's quite simple: sexual activity without ongoing consent is sexual assault.

 

In fact, the entire premise of the husband/wife act is that the man desires the woman and wants to be with her intimately.

I'm not sure which world you've been living in, but that's the premise of most sexual activity--including rape. Most rapists rape their victims because they desire them and act upon that desire in the absence of ongoing consent. If having such an attitude or perpetrating such an act against a woman is not misogyny, then I'm afraid I don't know what it is.

 

In fact, the idea of ongoing consent/informed consent are so important that many societies and legal systems have placed onerous ethical and legal expectations on certain professions because of power/authority imbalances: police officers, teachers, doctors etc. I would be investigated by the medical board for starting a consensual relationship with a patient or someone related to a patient, with a very real possibility of being permanently barred from study of medicine or losing my license if I was a practicing doctor. This is to minimize the risk that people under our care might have of being exploited

 

***

Now to return to the core of the matter...

 

What several individuals insist on doing in this thread is to contextualize this very important discussion in an imaginary situation that--while not uncommon--suits their otherwise pathetic argument, i.e. that of the 'disobedient' wife who just refuses sex because she's being manipulative for one reason or the other. Like, I've said repeatedly, if that's the case then it's probably a broken marriage that needs to be fixed.

 

On the contrary, most case of abuse, harassment, and assault that legal authorities, social workers, and medical professionals have to deal with are from settings where there's a real power imbalance between the husband and the wife, the relationships are often abusive, and usually (but not always) they occur in lower socioeconomic strata. If Muslims, and especially our religious readers, don't recognize and/or raise awareness that there is such a thing as marital rape, and that it can cause long lasting psychological damage: depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, aversion to intimacy etc, then they are actively helping perpetuate the myth that there is no spousal rape and that it's okay for men to force themselves on their wives if they think that the wives don't have a legitimate reason to refuse sex.

 

So, to reiterate: anyone forcing himself on a woman without ongoing consent, whether he's the woman's husband or a stranger, is sexually assaulting/raping her. It is one of the most abhorrent forms of violence, even if it leaves not a single physical trace. Note, that the article posted by the OP was extremely ambiguous at best, and at worst, condoned forcing oneself sexually so long as there was no obvious/physical harm, before it was edited following objections in this very thread. Anyone who still insists on getting on a high horse to spew out rubbish against feminists, in my humble opinion, needs the immediate attention of a mental health expert.

Edited by Deewan

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A parable of the question under discussion would be "Is it okay to kick the vending machine if it doesn't eject coke after you put your money into it?".

 

IMO, no. Why kick it? Would you keep kicking it each time it jams up? Such a vending machine is obviously broken and it should simply be sent to the junkyard and replaced.

why coke ?

too much sugar and toxins .

Perhaps some fresh organic cold pressed juices .

Samii.. Yup we have some imbalanced bullies here who are bad for SC :)

yep , we do indeed little bro ,

some new guy throws a typical psy ops narrative into the den , and the blood bath begins.

The feminist sisters on one side lashing out on their frustrations and the poor bros on the other side coping it.

meanwhile this mod thinks its a serious topic for a sister who accuses all the brothers of being  rapists .

yes indeed a very serious topic for those of highly educated  mind controlled stooges to not see it as another operation to further divide and conquer .

Edited by :Sami II

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No one should "rape their wife" (as if that was even practical, rape of a well rested elephant by a exhausted donkey just back from a 8 hour work session!). Instead, just find a new one - a human and believing one with a heart in stead of the currency counter.

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What if there is disagreement over what constitutes legitimate grounds for refusal? Clearly if the wife is very sick the sensible husband won't even try. But what if she is only slightly ill, or what if she is utterly exhausted from her day's work? Wouldn't a sensible husband be sympathetic to his wife's needs too? Wouldn't sensitivity to her needs fall under his obligation to protect her from harm?

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It's very telling that Muslims can't even agree whether forcing your wife to have sex is wrong. 

This has to do with the structure of the religion. In Islam, you don't decide yourself what to believe is right or wrong, you submit the Quran and hadiths. The hadiths are not to be investigated independently by the Muslims but rather it is going to be what scholars say. Even if something is not mutuwatir and is highly controversial in the world when it comes to ethics, Muslims go by what is deemed authentic by scholars.  In this respect, what is narrated triumphs over reason and inner light. At the end even things like killing people for changing religion which have Quran verses contradicting are going to be followed because of the structure of society of following scholars. 

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^ That presupposes that the sense that is common is the good sense. If common sense says a man should force his wife to have sex with him, regardless of how she feels about it, then im not so sure it is good sense. This has nothing to do with 'feminism', its to do with having a sense for whats good.

 

I rather incline towards the view that when ever either partner demands more from their partner than they know is healthy for them to give (either for their own well being or the well being of the relationship) then they are sacrificing their better selves and the security of the relationship for desires of a lower order. The Quran tells us marriages are meant to be loving/supportive unions; so you work on your issues and differences with this in mind. If your relationship has become so abusive that you demand to the point of damaging the other person, the kindest thing might be to leave their life to minimise the suffering youre causing. This of course goes both ways - whether youre a person who recognises that they desire things beyond whats healthy for the other person to provide, or if youre a person who recognises you cant provide whats reasonable and health for the other person to ask for. The mature thing to do would be to recognise these realties and either work lovingly to change them or part.

 

To propagate this notion that wives should submit to their husbands advances, as if a slave, is ugly and on very shaky ground, as it is a notion completely ignorant of the every day realities of peoples relationships and so utterly absurd in practical terms. If women went around submitting to sex literally  whenever their husbands wanted, irrespective of what was happening in their relationship, it would only serve to cause resentment and disgust, damage the relationship and reduce the act itself to that of an animal. Show me where the Quran teaches us to act like impulsive animals. Ive noticed people throwing around ahadith about the necessity for foreplay - whats the point in foreplay if your wife is upset because her husband is attempting to force himself on her knowing its the last thing she wants or needs at that moment. The whole thing is oddly incongruous to say the least.

 

I think we can all agree that abusing your wife to make her sleep with you is bad. In a natural relationship of mutual love, neither the wife would object to sexual satisfaction nor will the husband object to sacrificing a great deal of his wealth for her wellbeing. 

 

If theres repulsion towards the man then the original purpose behind the marriage will have been nullified and she would be better off asking for a divorce (khul'). That's what it should come down to if either one of the spouses dont want to please the other.

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Salam,

Jebreil... You have a philosophical way of writing,it's okay to be simple. The real issue is some men not knowing how to deal with a woman. Some men only remmber their wifes when it's bed time and when they need them, the rest of the time they dont even care about them. You cant expect a woman to be in the mood for you when you want it. Let's be honest, most of the time or the majority of muslim men are not helpful and expect their wifes to do everything in the house and still demand for their right,even thou he hasnt done his part.

It might be damaging for a mans ego if a woman consistently rejects him because it makes him feel unwanted. Most men like to express love throu intercourse, will woman just feel loved throu words and simple actions. You talked about the man desring her,why is it that he wants her at times and not at other times. You need to be consistent with a woman,you cant just ne rude and expect her to be mental and physically ready to be with you. You need to be nice and show actions that prove you care.

It doesnt make you masculine to have forced sex,infact it only shows your a weak person. You can be affectinate by hugging,kissig,cuddling and not by have intercourse. But it seems like it's not enough for some of you.

What's unhealth in a relationship, partners that dont address their problems. Their are many woman that feel like they have only been used for intercourse by their husbands. Do you think that will grow the relationship? One person is not feeling the same as the other. Do you think god will be happy about this? Oh she's doing her duty?

If you want material rape to be reduced, then it's the duty of the man to make his wife happy and make her feel loved during and after intercourse and not just fir intercourse.

I understand that some men feel rejected when their wifes refuse to sleep with them but that does not give them the right to force their wife into a action that shes not welling to take part in. I dont understand how some men gain pleasure from watching their wifes being in pain infront of them. That breaks the trust and love between them. The man is meant to protect you, and not make you feel scared of him.

Between, just because she refused it doesnt make you less of a man and it does not mean she loves you less.

Sami, you young boy need to clam it down because your adding and spicing what I stated to your liking... Am not going to respond to your comment because it adds nothing...

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The problem with all these STUPID topics is that people are arguing against islam from a non-islamic viewpoint. Like what do you expect from a husband or wife who calls themselves muslim by name yet is a hypocrite? Why marry such an individual in the first place? Now change the scenario to a pious husband and wife.

 

Case Closed.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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meanwhile this mod thinks its a serious topic for a sister who accuses all the brothers of being  rapists .

yes indeed a very serious topic for those of highly educated  mind controlled stooges to not see it as another operation to further divide and conquer .

 

1. She did not accuse all brothers of being rapists.

 

2. Her post was reported and she has been issued a warning.

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1. She did not accuse all brothers of being rapists.

 

2. Her post was reported and she has been issued a warning.

 

 

"If material rape is okay with some of you then you should go check your self's out. That's mainly at the ones that try to justife the act and make it seem fine because you know a man can get what he want's when he want's....

Honestly,some of you sound like under cover rapists.."

 

Please bring forth 4 witnesses so these brothers can be dealt with in the prescribed :islamic manner .

If no witnesses than a brother/sister should not accuse another brother/sister of a hideous crime , this action is in itself a crime in :Islam.

I think an apology is needed from this good sister so she may be forgiven by the other brothers.

I forgive her and I ask for her forgiveness if I have offended her.

 

 

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It pains me to see that this debate still going on. Whats so hard to understand about it. Wives should not be raped, period. We're not even allowed to rape ourselves by playing with the private part. Its forbidden. Wives have great many rights incumbent upon men. You should have thought it over when you got married.

 

IMHO inside and adjacent to the entrance of each house where a husband and wife live, there should be made an altar of the wife where her picture and flowers are kept and incense is kept burning. The husband should show his respects at that shrine when the wife is absent, or too engrossed with watching garbage on the TV. Wealthier husbands should leave their gifts of diamond sets, chocolate fudge cream cakes and other tokens of affection at that shrine to show their love and affection to her and to remind themselves that they abide by her divinely granted rights. She should be glorified day and night, and exalted, and kept happy and men should fear God in the matter. The husband should stay silent. He should be happy even if she forgets to or doesn't cook, and never expect anything from her and be grateful for the halal sinless way he has been bestowed with. He should order chinese for her when there is no food, and hey, thats a bright side too. And some of you inhuman men here think of raping her???!! What arrogance, what insolence! WHY YOU WORMS, what has made you so haughty I wonder? Have you forgotten of your deaths that you give leave to your sense like that??? 

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It's haram for her to say no to her husband if he asks, and if she disobeys, he is allowed to strike her (as per Quran and fatwa of Sayed Ali al-Sistani (h.a), but he can't force her into doing it, and the striker must not cause a change of colour in the skin or a bruise.

This is what Sayed Ali al-Sistani (h.a) said. I can see that there will be a few feminist screams here and there, but these are not my words.

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Salam,

Sami, you young boy need to clam it down because your adding and spicing what I stated to your liking... Am not going to respond to your comment because it adds nothing...

why thank you dear sis , 

it's been over 50 years since someone has referred to me as a young boy .

or perhaps I can use  Br Jebreil philosophical reply .

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam) 

 

Kim ,

 

Your premise of a relative term to equate to my disposition of youth is elementary , in proposition to (f).

(f) being dependant on the factors of space and time which exerts (b) , the outcome composite to the external motion of continuum ©.

f X b2 = C 

 

Escalating the formula to propel the exertion of the sub premise (G) , given the notion of the continuum.

Than one is forced to conclude a "why thank you..." (M).

 

(wasalam)

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Why do you marry feminists? Striking a woman will only worsen the problem. Has anyone ever been able to fix her woman by striking her? Did the holy Prophet ever strike Aisha or Hafsa? And if he lived with his wives like a gentlemen and even drank the poison she gave him, who are you following when you strike a wife?

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Why do you marry feminists? Striking a woman will only worsen the problem. Has anyone ever been able to fix her woman by striking her? Did the holy Prophet ever strike Aisha or Hafsa? And if he lived with his wives like a gentlemen and even drank the poison she gave him, who are you following when you strike a wife?

Anyone who strikes his wife, is following the bid'ha of abu sufiyan yazid Omar Mawiya and so forth.

Edited by PureEthics

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Anyone who strikes his wife, is following the bid'ha of abu sufiyan yazid Omar Mawiya and so forth.

1) It's in the Holy Qur'an

2) Sayed Ali al-Sistani (h.a) allows it with the condition that striking does not cause a mark. (Other scholars probably share a view similar.)

3) Do you have sources stating the the above individuals started this "bid'ah"?

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1) It's in the Holy Qur'an

2) Sayed Ali al-Sistani (h.a) allows it with the condition that striking does not cause a mark. (Other scholars probably share a view similar.)

3) Do you have sources stating the the above individuals started this "bid'ah"?

Do you know what "to strike" means? I challenge you to bring forth a Hadith explaining the quranic verse. I also challenge you to bring a Hadith showing any of our imams "striking" their wives. Simple follow the Sunnah of the imams, for they are the living qurans. So your telling me those individuals never hit woman? They BURIED a person for being just a female! Khalas Edited by PureEthics

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