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Thaqalyn

How Can You Say These Have Been Promised Paradise?

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According to the Ahlul Sunnah, these will all be in Janah: 1)Imam Ali (as) , 2)Abu Bakr, 3)Umar, 4)Uthman, 5)Talhah, 6) Zubair. I know there's more but I just want to focus on these. 

 

Ok, so... The second and third cause the death of the first's wife. Also, the fourth and fifth tried to kill the first. Oh, I almost forgot, the second, third and fourth on that list stole the Khilafah from the first... but, all of them will be together in Janah.

 

Could anyone from Ahlul Sunnah explain this?! And if any Shi'a would like to add to this they would be very welcome.

 

ws

Edited by Thaqalyn

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According to the Ahlul Sunnah, these will all be in Janah: 1)Imam Ali (as) , 2)Abu Bakr, 3)Umar, 4)Uthman, 5)Talhah, 6) Zubair. I know there's more but I just want to focus on these. 

 

 

 

First lets arrange the names as they were told by the Holy Prophet saw

1) Abu Bakr  (ra)

2) Umar (ra)

3)Uthman (ra)

4)Ali (ra)

5)Talha (ra)

6)Zubair (ra)

 

 

 

 

The second and third cause the death of the first's wife. 

 

 

Really? what did Al-Sayyed Hussain Fadlallah say about this fabricated story?

 

 

 

Also, the fourth and fifth tried to kill the first. 

 

 

Is that the best u can say?

 

 

Oh, I almost forgot, the second, third and fourth on that list stole the Khilafah from the first... but, all of them will be together in Janah.

 

 

 

No one stole the khilafah from Ali (ra). Ali got khilafah on his turn. No need to exaggerate on the right to rule. Fabricated stories inscribed in the our books led to the division in the ummah & YOU! Is this question a part of ur syllabus? hmm? Get ready for life after death... Five times Salah, Fasting, Charity, Hajj, Zakat, Good deeds, Do zikr .... Are u even trying? Try to focus on the important issues on which Allah swt will question you on the day of judgement... If anyone did wrong to anyone He/She will be questioned by Allah swt & dealt with accordingly. Allah swt gave our Holy Prophet saw the best wives, the best daughters, the best companions, the best BOOK.... Stick to it.

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First lets arrange the names as they were told by the Holy Prophet saw

1) Abu Bakr  (ra)

2) Umar (ra)

3)Uthman (ra)

4)Ali (ra)

5)Talha (ra)

6)Zubair (ra)

 

 

 

 

 

Really? what did Al-Sayyed Hussain Fadlallah say about this fabricated story?

 

 

 

 

Is that the best u can say?

 

 

 

 

No one stole the khilafah from Ali (ra). Ali got khilafah on his turn. No need to exaggerate on the right to rule. Fabricated stories inscribed in the our books led to the division in the ummah & YOU! Is this question a part of ur syllabus? hmm? Get ready for life after death... Five times Salah, Fasting, Charity, Hajj, Zakat, Good deeds, Do zikr .... Are u even trying? Try to focus on the important issues on which Allah swt will question you on the day of judgement... If anyone did wrong to anyone He/She will be questioned by Allah swt & dealt with accordingly. Allah swt gave our Holy Prophet saw the best wives, the best daughters, the best companions, the best BOOK.... Stick to it.

I'm going to clean up this mess for you properly in the following stages: 

 

1)First of all Ali (as) was head and shoulders above all the others, as Abu Bakr said after the event of Ghadir Khumm- 

 

"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the Master of all believing men and women."- 

Sunni references:

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281

(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50

(3) Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557

(4) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144

(5) Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari

(6) al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah

(7) al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala

(8) Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah

(9) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra ... and many more- almost all the top Sunni historians acknowledge Abu Bakr saying that.

 

2) Ok, so that is Sayyed Fadhlallah's opinion, but almost every other Marja' of the Shia say that Umar did attack the house of Lady Fatimah (as) , and so do the major Sunni historians. Sunni historians reported that: When Umar came to the door of the house of Fatimah, he said: "By Allah, I shall burn down (the house) over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr)."

Sunni References:

- History of Tabari (Arabic), v1, pp 1118-1120

- History of Ibn Athir, v2, p325

- al-Isti’ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p975

- Tarikh al-Kulafa, by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, p20

- al-Imamah wal-Siyasah, by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, pp 19-20

Abu Bakr said (on his death bed): "I wish I had not searched for Fatimah’s house, and had not sent men to harass her, though it would have caused a war if her house would have continued to be used as a shelter."

Sunni references:

- History of Ya’qubi, v2, pp 115-116

- Ansab Ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, pp 582,586

Ali and Abbas were sitting inside the house of Fatimah, Abu Bakr told Umar: "Go and bring them; if they refuse, kill them.”Umar brought fire to burn the house. Fatimah came near the door and said: "O son of Khattab, have you come to burn our house on me and my children?”Umar replied: "Yes I will, by Allah, until they come out and pay allegiance to the Prophet’s Caliph."

Sunni reference:

- Iqd al-Fareed, by Ibn Abd Rabb, Part 3, Pg. 63

- al-Ghurar, by Ibn Khazaben, related from Zayd Ibn Aslam. So many historians have noted this happening, you can't deny it.

 

3) Your claim that Talha and Zubair trying to kill Ali (as) is not enough?! First, according to you, fighting the khalifa of your time is kuffr according to your school, not ours. Second, although the fighting did not kill Imam Ali (as) himself, so many of his companions were killed and Talha was one of the generals of the army that ordered that. Third, does it make sense for one to try and kill the other, and they both meet in Janah. Absolutely ridiculous. 

 

4) In terms of khilafah, that is very easy to prove. If I use a hadith that says, master, then those who are ignorant will just say, 'no, it means we have to love Ali, it doesn't mean he is the Khalifah'. So I will use the following the narration from the prominent Sunni book, al Sunnah- Allama Albani (you seem pretty weak in knowledge so I'll tell you he's considered your best scholar in terms of grading hadith) and he said that this narration even fits the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim. The Messenger of Allah said "Oh Ali, you are to me like Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me, and you are the khalifah of every true believer after I no longer have prophethood". And as Imam Ali (as) did not give bay'ah to Abu Bakr, gave a speech that said both of them (Abu Bakr and Umar were treacherous (Shaqshaqiyyah). In Sahih Muslim Imam Ali (as) also says that Abu Bakr and Umar were treacherous liars, and, as we can see, the Messenger (pbuh) himself appointed him. So, yes, the Khilafah was stolen from him and those who can't bear the truth just try and cover it up even when it is shown as Sahih.

 

Therefore, you are incorrect in absolutely every aspect of your argument and this hadith is clearly fabricated by Bani Umayyah or Banu Abbas. Good day.

Edited by Thaqalyn

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Salam Brother Invoker,

You said, "Allah swt gave our Holy Prophet saw the best wives, the best daughters, the best companions, the best BOOK.... Stick to it."

Where does Allah (swt) say that he gave/will give nabi Muhammad (saw) the best of companions, wives, etc...(not including best book, I agree on that).

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First lets arrange the names as they were told by the Holy Prophet saw

1) Abu Bakr  (ra)

2) Umar (ra)

3)Uthman (ra)

4)Ali (ra)

5)Talha (ra)

6)Zubair (ra)

 

 

Second: let's find a source for what I said first .

 

Third: There wasn't any source for what I said first

 

Forth: I don't have any rational answer !

 

...

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By the way, talking about this topic of companions fighting each other, what would you say about Uthman (as) who was 'promised paradise', killing Abu Dhar al Ghafari (ra) , who the prophet said about him, "Neither has the sky shaded one more truthful and honest than Abu Dhar nor has the earth had anyone walk over it like him. He is like Isa bin Maryam." Sahih Tirmidhi, A man who resembles Isa (as) in character , was killed by someone destined for paradise? 

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Salam Brother Invoker,

You said, "Allah swt gave our Holy Prophet saw the best wives, the best daughters, the best companions, the best BOOK.... Stick to it."

Where does Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì say that he gave/will give nabi Muhammad (saw) the best of companions, wives, etc...(not including best book, I agree on that).

 

 

Walay kum salam 

 

 

But My mercy encompasses all things.  So I will decree it [especially] for those who fear Me and give zakah and those who believe in Our verses. Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written [i.e., mentioned] in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them.  So they who have believed in him, honoured him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him � it is those who will be successful   Al-A'raf: 156-157.

 

 

 

It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers.  And brought together their hearts.  If you had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have brought their hearts together, but Allah brought them together.  Indeed, He is Exalted in Might and Wise. [Al-Anfal: 62-63].

 

 

As for the daughters i would advice u not to have any kind of doubt that they were not the best.

 

 

           Now as far as the wives are concerned... With the exception of  Hazrat Khadija  (ra) ( & thats probably because she gave birth to Hazrat Fatima  (ra)) you people disown EVERY other wife of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Please have some shame. Isn't that a disgrace to our Holy Prophet that all her wives were apostates except one? The reason you hate Hazrat Aisha (ra) is that she fought against Hazrat Ali  (ra)...  The reason she fought against Ali  (ra) is the same Hazrat Ameer Muawiya  (ra) fought in siffin...  i.e  Ali  (ra)

 

unsuccessful in finding Uthman (ra) murderers. 

 

 

 

But there comes another  problem... you shias also disown the first three caliphs so i dont think the reason of both the wars will tempt you to think logically & in an unbiased way. 

 

My personal opinion is that these two wars took place because of misunderstadings. In short I stand neutral. I will not be questioned on the day of judgement that who was right & who was wrong. My syllabus is defined Follow the Orders of Allah swt Praying, Fasting, Charity, Good deeds, The sunnah of the Holy Prophet, Reciting & understanding the Quran. Enough for me. 

 

& i probably know ur answers COPY PASTE SOME MATERIAL quoting the reference of sunni books warning me that a famous sunni scholar grades it SAHIH. 

 

 

Second: let's find a source for what I said first .

 

 

 

 

Narrated Sa'id ibn Zayd:

AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: I bear witness to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) that I heard him say: Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (peace be upon him) will go to Paradise, Abu Bakr will go to Paradise,Umar will go to Paradise, Uthman will go to Paradise, Ali will go to Paradise, Talhah will go to Paradise: az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam will go to paradise, Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise, and Abdur Rahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise. If I wish, I can mention the tenth. The People asked: Who is he: So he kept silence. The again asked: Who is he: He replied: He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.

 

 

Source: Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40:4632

 

 

Third: There wasn't any source for what I said first

 

 

 

 

Step one: 

 

Find this thing on ur grandpa's desk

 

images5_zps3733829f.jpg

 

 

Step Two:  

 

Read this carefully 

 

 

untitled_zps9d8bf554.jpg

 

 

Step Three: 

 

 

Put that magnifying glass back on ur grandpa's desk

 

 

Step Four: 

 

 

images7_zps59f1aab0.jpg

 

 

 

 

Forth: I don't have any rational answer !

 

 

 

 

Repeat step one, two & 

 

 

 

images6_zps5d709c08.jpg

Edited by Invoker

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^ how was ALi "unsuccessful" in findings uthmans killers? why should he punish them in the first place ? first shot of civil war was uthman killing abu dharr then his palace guards killing Niyad b Iyar a sahabi who was a besieger of uthmans house and uthman did not hand over the killers

 

So its no surprise uthman was killed like a dog, he tested the patience of the revolutionaries

Its well known uthman was killed by a collection of representatives who came from primarily Egypt and Iraq and both ALi and Talha commanded a considerable influence over them.

SOme of those implicated in uthmans murder were well known partisans of Ali, like Muhammad b abibakr , Kinana b bishr tujabi ( see ALis praise for his bravery in Nahjul balagah) and AMr b Hamiq radiallah anhu a companion of the Prophet.Plus Talha is well known for being the harshest critic of uthman and maintaining the siege around uthman so much so that Marwan was the one who killed Talha to avenge uthman.

 

Ali had no reason to punish uthmans killers , despite excuses made by 12er shias almost all of ALi's suppporters had a fairly poor opinion of uthman although it seems vast majority of them liked the policies of abubakr/umar, uthman was killed highly unpopular amongst most non-quraishi sahaba and even fellow quraishi sahaba who were lukewarm to ALi and Basrans/Egyptians still did not come to his aid.Uthman was a victm of his own nepotism.The cry "revenege for uthman" was conveneient ploy used by ummayyads to malign the genuine anti-quraishi backlash from the ansar and provincial areas against quraishi hegemony.It is only after decades did uthmans murder became a "crime" in eyes of sunni mainstream but during his last days uthman was consider a despot by most people of medina and Iraq/Egypt.The base of Alis support rested on reversing the corrupt policies of uthman, "punishing uthmans killers" was not only suicidal politically but would lead to a further prolongation of the civil war and not justifiable on moral grounds.FOr Gods sake just look at the opposition of Muhammad b abihudyafa a fellow ummayyad to uthman

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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hadith of 10 promised paradise is just another hadith which highlite the superiority of Early quraishi sahaba in sunni hadth which always gives precedence to quraishi muhajireen over all other sahaba

 

but im surprised that shias complain about it, at the very least see the context of hadith

 

Sayeed b Zayd tells this hadith to protest against mughirah b shubas cursing of ALi in kufa, so in a sense Sayeed b zayd takes the courageous stance of praising Ali in ummayyad occupied kufa and including him with all the elite early muhajireen when ummayyads are trying to make him public enemy # 1

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Invoker You were unable to answer to any of the proofs that I gave you, and once again bring weak supposed pieces of evidence. I will clean this mess up for you, again:

1) With regard to the verse 62:63, you cannot take one ayah and say it applies to all the sahaaba, that is like me saying "Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not(Muhammad): We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty."Quran:9:101, and then applying to all the companions astaghfirullah. 

2) Ok, Albani says it is Sahih, unfortunately, Albani is a proof for you, not us and, secondly, if the content is absolutely ridiculous the Prophet (pbuh) can't have said it. This thread is here to discuss the content of it, and the chain of narrators is a completely different subject. Stop running away and stay focused on the content. 

3) You made no comment at all about the proofs that I presented to you, first of all, Abu Bakr said Ali (as) is his Master so how is he first- this indicates it is fabricated. Umar attacked the house of Imam Ali (as), and Talha and Zubair attempted to murder Ali (as).. but hey, all of them will be in Janah together. Oh yes, I almost forgot, I showed you a sahih hadith authenticated by Albani that the Prophet (pbuh) appointed Ali (as) and he Ali (as) viewed Abu Bakr and Umar as treacherous liars in Sahih Muslim. 

 

Why have you mentioned the wives again? Subhanallah... Are you trying to justify Aisha, Talha and Zubair trying to kill Ameer ul Mu'mineen (as) . With regard to you taking about how we elevate the satis of Fatimah (as) and Khadijah (as) , I leave you with the following narrations, the Prophet said: "Sufficient for you among the women of mankind are Mariam bint 'Imran, Khadijah bint Khuwailid, Fatimah bint Muhammad and Asiyah the wife of Fir'awn."- Tirmidhi-Grade: Sahih. Where do you see Aisha on that list?

 

All I see is the jealousy and rudeness she displayed in front of the Prophet (pbuh) 24/7 ,A'isha reported that Hala b. Khuwailid (sister of Khadija) sought permission from Allah's Messenger to see him and he was reminded of Khadija's (manner of) asking leave to enter and (was overwhelmed) with emotions thereby and said:

O Allah, it is Hala, daughter of Khuwailid, and I felt jealous and said: Why do you remember one of those old women of the Quraish with gums red and who is long dead-while Allah has given you a better one in her stead?To which the Prophet said, none is better that Khadija. Sahih Muslim.
Allah's Messenger used to drink honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and would stay there with her. So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him. "It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir," (We did so) and he replied. "No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it." Sahih Bukhari.
 
 
Edited by Thaqalyn

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