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Sumerian

Why Don't You Keep Sabbath?

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Hello fellow Christians, why did you reject the Sabbath when it is part of the ten commandments? Aren't the ten commandments, Divine Laws that should stay forever? Or is it because you guys don't have the same calendar used by the former Prophets (which is Lunar btw)?

Peace and blessings upon you all.

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Hello fellow Christians, why did you reject the Sabbath when it is part of the ten commandments? Aren't the ten commandments, Divine Laws that should stay forever? Or is it because you guys don't have the same calendar used by the former Prophets (which is Lunar btw)?

Peace and blessings upon you all.

Just wondering, but are you asking Christians why they don't keep the same Abrahamic laws that Muslims don't?

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Just wondering, but are you asking Christians why they don't keep the same Abrahamic laws that Muslims don't?

We follow the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w). Those commandments were for the people of the time. In Islam, Sharia changes over time, especially when one of; Prophet Nuh (a.s), Prophet Ibrahim (a.s), Prophet Musa (a.s), Prophet Isa (a.s) and Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w) are living, for they recieved new laws. Some laws might have been permissible in the days of former Prophets, nowadays, maybe not. Example - Sabbath Day, it is not obligatory anymore upon Muslims. Edited by DaBeast313

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Yeah, that was long before Christianity as well.

I can look up the references later, but Jesus was criticized more than once for what He or His Disciples were doing on a Sabbath that the religion of the time didn't like. 

 

Okay, so God gives you the ability to heal someone on the Sabbath, but man's law of religion doesn't allow it.

 

We are almost at that point in time again where it is impossible to remain "within the law" because man has made so many laws overlap that there is almost no middle ground. None of these laws benefit us as much as they do those who make them.

 

I worked 7 years with Tuesday/Wednesdays off, no Sabbath, no Sunday. 12 years before I could get Sunday/Monday off. My "Sabbath" had to be one of the two days I had off. Not always the same days, and it was a struggle to keep even one. The Union decided overtime should be distributed more evenly and we were forced to do our share whether we liked it or not. <---- more man's laws,..

All week God is the same, He shouldn't have to wait for the weekends for us to recognize that.

 

I am now retired so if one were to mention a day in my 7 when I should worship God more than the others I might consider it ;)

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Okay, so God gives you the ability to heal someone on the Sabbath, but man's law of religion doesn't allow it.

 

Hi SOP

 

I believe general rules, such as abstaining from work or transport on the sabbath, do not apply to exceptional situations.

 

If someone's daughter was so sick that only an ambulance might save her, I doubt if God would expect the father to refuse the ambulance driver to drive his daughter to the hospital and insist on walking her all the way.

 

I believe general rules are subject to a reasonable degree of common sense and can be modified by higher or sometimes even competing priorities.   

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Hi SOP

 

I believe general rules, such as abstaining from work or transport on the sabbath, do not apply to exceptional situations.

 

If someone's daughter was so sick that only an ambulance might save her, I doubt if God would expect the father to refuse the ambulance driver to drive his daughter to the hospital and insist on walking her all the way.

 

I believe general rules are subject to a reasonable degree of common sense and can be modified by higher or sometimes even competing priorities.   

A Jewish surgeon is not allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath by himself, even in case of emergency, although...Two surgeons are allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath.

I don't know the logic behind it. Maybe two sets of hands in the mix confuse God so he's not sure which surgeon is breaking the law.

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A Jewish surgeon is not allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath by himself, even in case of emergency, although...Two surgeons are allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath.

 

No offence to my Jewish friends. But we have great respect for our Prophets and Moses is among the top. So personally, I think it might be a misunderstanding of his words.    

 

But I cannot believe that if Moses was alive and his daughter was on the point of death, he would walk her to the hospital rather than drive her or take the ambulance on the sabbath day.

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Even if Jesus mde a change to the policy, as a prophet, he was authorized to do so.  

 

Messenger's altered the Sharia of the previous Messenger. Jesus Christ [a] was no different. Likewise, as Muslims, we are not bound by the Sharia of Moses [a], although, much of Moses Sharia is incorporated into ours, we are bound by the Sharia of Muhammad al-Mustafa [sawa].

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But I cannot believe that if Moses was alive and his daughter was on the point of death, he would walk her to the hospital rather than drive her or take the ambulance on the sabbath day.

 

Jesus [a] makes this point in the Gospel of Matthew:

 

And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him.

He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out?

Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” [Gospel according to Matthew 12:10-12]

 

 

Whether this was a change in the Law of Moses or a misunderstanding on the part of the Israelites, I don't know, but Jesus made the point that to perform good works on the Sabbath is permissible. 

 

Under the Law of Moses, you were stoned if you broke the sabbath. It was serious enough of an offence for God to say in the Qur'an He turned the Sabbath breakers into Swine and Apes (however you wish to interpret that passage). 

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As corruption goes...The Scribes and Pharisees made laws as they went along. To what extent they had exaggerated the laws I don't know.  This is what gets confusing when Jesus said he came to uphold the law, not destroy it.

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The thing that Jesus (as) was saying is that the religious leaders of the time were following the letter of the Law but not the spirit. They were using it to enrich /empower themselves not to establish justice. Healing people on the Sabbath was an indicator that Allah's desire for people to rest on the Sabbath did not outweigh his desire for them to be merciful hence the example he put forth about a sheep falling into a pit and a human being more valuable than a sheep. One must weigh whether it is more important to rest or to save a life.

 

Another example is when Jesus said " Love the Lord with all thy heart , all thy soul and all thy mind and love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two Commandments hang all of the Law and the Prophets". The Torah was traditionally (and still is amongst Jews) divided into two sections one is The Law and the other is The Prophets. But basically what Jesus (as) was saying is that adhering to the letter of the Law is useless if you do not do the things that it is directing you to which are the two Commandments mentioned above. Muhammad (saws) agreed when he said "No man is a believer until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself." Surah Al Maun touches upon the same theme.

 

But none of these things abolish or abrogate the Law so much as they put it into perspective. This is why Jesus (as) said he came NOT to destroy the Law  but to uphold it. He DID uphold the Law. He did not say to his followers that they should work on the Sabbath. This is exemplified by the fact that according to the Bible itself his followers wanted him down from the cross before sunset on the Friday he was crucified so that they could bury him before the Sabbath which began at sundown. Furthermore his people came to tend to his body not on Saturday ie. the Sabbath but on Sunday the day afterwards. This has Jesus'(as) own followers still recognizing the Sabbath even after the crucifixion.

 

The one who argued against following the Law was Paul. He disagreed with Peter (the rock upon whom Jesus (as) said he would build his church and the "first Pope" ) who thought that Christians SHOULD follow the Law. Jews ,to whom the Law is/was sacred did not end up being the main body of Christians (there are groups today like Jews for Jesus who do follow the Law ) but converts from among the gentiles. Converting them was easier if you told them they didn't have to follow the Law which included being circumcised which is a hard sell to grown men : )

 

In any case the predominant Christian position , since Paul , has been that one need not follow the Law in order to be Christian . Most Christian denominations give a nod to the Ten Commandments and a few other Old Testament rules but DO NOT feel that they must follow the some 613 Commandments ( the Ten Commandments is a short list Leviticus and Deuteronomy contain many many more Commandments and Laws ) prescribed in the Old Testament holding that the New testament is a new covenant and the old one no longer applies.

 

And Allah knows best

Edited by IQRA07

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According to Judaism, one must put the Sabbath aside and do everything necessary in order to heal someone dangerously sick. There are various leniencies for helping people in other situations, but the Sabbath takes the precedence, when there is no danger.

 

However, historically it was a matter of debate, recorded in the Talmud as well. Prof. Daniel Boyarin, a prominent Orthodox Jewish researcher of early Judaism, argues that Jesus kept the Sabbath. Although, maybe in a somewhat different more relaxed style, compared to his opponents.

 

Note also that this episode from the Gospels has particularly interesting antinomian underpinnings, because Jesus healed the man by miraculous means. Someone who is capable of performing miracles may be above the ordinary rules. If God grants someone a miracle on the Sabbath, then there must be a good reason for it, even if it may look superficially as a violation of the law.

 

 

Jesus [a] makes this point in the Gospel of Matthew:

 

And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him.

He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out?

Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” [Gospel according to Matthew 12:10-12]

 

 

Whether this was a change in the Law of Moses or a misunderstanding on the part of the Israelites, I don't know, but Jesus made the point that to perform good works on the Sabbath is permissible. 

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A Jewish surgeon is not allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath by himself, even in case of emergency, although...Two surgeons are allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath.

I don't know the logic behind it. Maybe two sets of hands in the mix confuse God so he's not sure which surgeon is breaking the law.

 

Oh, I missed this one before!

 

No offense, Son of Placid, but it's not the first time you post here very inaccurate information about Judaism.

 

A Jewish surgeon is absolutely allowed to do surgery in the normal way on the Sabbath, for a Jewish or non-Jewish patient, according to virtually all streams of Orthodox Judaism. But only in the case, when there is at least a slight chance of immediate danger. If there is no danger, even a thousand surgeons holding the tools together should not do it.

 

But technically, there are discussions in rabbinical literature about various indirect methods of Sabbath violation, including doing things by two people, by the left hand, by the back side of the hand. There are also discussions, whether the Sabbath may be violated for the sake of those who don't keep it, i.e. non-Jews and secular Jews. The normative answer is yes, the Sabbath must be violated for the sake of anyone who is in danger. Some people may add: except for mortal enemies and outright heretics.

 

It may sound strange for a Christian mind, but the classic Jewish legal literature is full of theoretical discussions about much weirder stuff like permissibility to cure someone with the flesh of an Egyptian mummy or, in the mid-20th century responsa, about lighting Sabbath candles on the Moon. It does not mean that the Jews, like the Jaffa from the Stargate SG-1 TV show, live on other planets and are surrounded by Egyptian pyramids. There is a huge difference between what's being discussed for the sake of better understanding of God's law, real life practice and what you may have seen or heard some random people doing.

 

What you refer to sounds like a misunderstanding of this weird ruling by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who recommended (even he didn't insisted on this though) that it's better for two Jewish surgeons to hold the scalpel together, if they have to treat a non-Jewish patient on the Sabbath. The underlying logic is that it's better not to break the Sabbath in a completely direct fashion for those who don't observe it. BTW, his opinions about secular Jews who don't observe the Sabbath were remarkably gloomy as well. This guy was what people on this forum would call "marja" for many Jews from Middle East and North Africa. But even people who had deep respect for him laughed sometimes of his bizarre ideas and scandals surrounding him. Outside his followers' circles he was considered a funny controversial weirdo.

 

There are some things that I find extremely unpleasant and bad, but I have to admit that they are fairly common in today's Jewish communities. For example, I am accustomed to burn the Zionist flags, but I don't feel surprised to see a synagogue decorated with them. I would avoid going there though. But this double hand scalpel theory, coming from a guy who is mainly known not as a medicine expert or a traditional religious scholar, but a Zionist politician in self-denial who was constantly contradicting himself while flirting with the Israeli government in order to get more funds and moral support for religious organizations, is just a bad, bad joke. :)

 

P.S. I searched here on Shiachat for Ovadia Yosef and found, thanks to this site, a hilariously crazy story about him I never heard of before. I think it far surpasses the double-handed scalpel theory:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234958021-israeli-rabbi-beautiful-rachel-saved-army/?hl=%2Bovadia+%2Byosef

Edited by Yoel

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No, it is very well defined in the Talmud and classical rabbinical literature. The laws of the Sabbath are very detailed and comprise very large sections in Jewish legal literature. There are somewhat different schools of interpretation like different madhabs in Islam, but there is nothing hypocritical about it and the basics are the same. There are 39 general categories of forbidden work, which include writing, cooking, harvesting, cutting things other than food etc. There is a particular set of prayers to say and a particular way to eat the meals Friday night and Saturday by day.

 

On the contrary, it's one of the areas in the Talmudic law that is very clear and streightforward. Compare any Orthodox Jewish websites and you'll see that the differences between communities are minor and probably not even noticable for those who don't observe Shabes, as we Hasidic Jews call it.

 

And it doesn't mean "7th". It means "resting" or "non-doing".

 

 

What I long ago noticed is that "Sabbath" is not defined. So what it means is open to personal preferences, or as the hypocrites say, "interpretation".

 

Yes, I know it also means "7th"

Edited by Yoel

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Oh, I missed this one before!

 

No offense, Son of Placid, but it's not the first time you post here very inaccurate information about Judaism.

 

A Jewish surgeon is absolutely allowed to do surgery in the normal way on the Sabbath, for a Jewish or non-Jewish patient, according to virtually all streams of Orthodox Judaism. But only in the case, when there is at least a slight chance of immediate danger. If there is no danger, even a thousand surgeons holding the tools together should not do it.

 

But technically, there are discussions in rabbinical literature about various indirect methods of Sabbath violation, including doing things by two people, by the left hand, by the back side of the hand. There are also discussions, whether the Sabbath may be violated for the sake of those who don't keep it, i.e. non-Jews and secular Jews. The normative answer is yes, the Sabbath must be violated for the sake of anyone who is in danger. Some people may add: except for mortal enemies and outright heretics.

 

It may sound strange for a Christian mind, but the classic Jewish legal literature is full of theoretical discussions about much weirder stuff like permissibility to cure someone with the flesh of an Egyptian mummy or, in the mid-20th century responsa, about lighting Sabbath candles on the Moon. It does not mean that the Jews, like the Jaffa from the Stargate SG-1 TV show, live on other planets and are surrounded by Egyptian pyramids. There is a huge difference between what's being discussed for the sake of better understanding of God's law, real life practice and what you may have seen or heard some random people doing.

 

What you refer to sounds like a misunderstanding of this weird ruling by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who recommended (even he didn't insisted on this though) that it's better for two Jewish surgeons to hold the scalpel together, if they have to treat a non-Jewish patient on the Sabbath. The underlying logic is that it's better not to break the Sabbath in a completely direct fashion for those who don't observe it. BTW, his opinions about secular Jews who don't observe the Sabbath were remarkably gloomy as well. This guy was what people on this forum would call "marja" for many Jews from Middle East and North Africa. But even people who had deep respect for him laughed sometimes of his bizarre ideas and scandals surrounding him. Outside his followers' circles he was considered a funny controversial weirdo.

 

There are some things that I find extremely unpleasant and bad, but I have to admit that they are fairly common in today's Jewish communities. For example, I am accustomed to burn the Zionist flags, but I don't feel surprised to see a synagogue decorated with them. I would avoid going there though. But this double hand scalpel theory, coming from a guy who is mainly known not as a medicine expert or a traditional religious scholar, but a Zionist politician in self-denial who was constantly contradicting himself while flirting with the Israeli government in order to get more funds and moral support for religious organizations, is just a bad, bad joke. :)

 

P.S. I searched here on Shiachat for Ovadia Yosef and found, thanks to this site, a hilariously crazy story about him I never heard of before. I think it far surpasses the double-handed scalpel theory:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234958021-israeli-rabbi-beautiful-rachel-saved-army/?hl=%2Bovadia+%2Byosef

 

Thanks Yoel. no offence taken. Sometimes I splash hearsay on the site to see how accurate it is. It may make me look ignorant at the onset, but with the right people present, I usually get the truth. Hopefully this did not offend you.

 

As you mentioned, many of us are not up on the real Jewish customs and what we can find in research is not always the best example.

So the double scalpel thing is inaccurate, but not totally unfounded. We all have our goofy scholars.

 

It's good to have you here to clear these things up.

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So the double scalpel thing is inaccurate, but not totally unfounded. We all have our goofy scholars.

 

 

Well, it was all over the news a year ago, when Ovadia Yosef said it. He was 91 year old at that time and died a few months later...

 

You may find all sorts of things here and there, but it is totally wrong to make a general claim that "a Jewish surgeon is not allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath by himself", because this misinterpretation of an extremely marginal opinion, which was apparently retracted or modified by the guy who said it in some unclear context, goes against a major principle in Judaism, according to which all prohibitions, except idolatry, murder and adultery, must be violated in order to save one's life. Someone who refuses to violate Sabbath in such case is compared to a murderer.

 

To consider this opinion a part of Judaism is as wrong as to claim that "a Muslim must kill his daughter, if she went swimming in bikini on a public beach". Probably you can find some crazy Salafi leaders who support this idea, so you can say that it's "not totally unfounded", but it does not anyhow represent Islam. The same here.

 

Both Islam and Judaism agree with the Christian principle that life is more important than religious rituals.

Edited by Yoel

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Well, it was all over the news a year ago, when Ovadia Yosef said it. He was 91 year old at that time and died a few months later...

 

You may find all sorts of things here and there, but it is totally wrong to make a general claim that "a Jewish surgeon is not allowed to do surgery on the Sabbath by himself", because this extremely marginal opinion, which was apparently retracted or modified by the guy who said it, goes against a major principle in Judaism, according to which all prohibitions, except idolatry, murder and adultery, must be violated in order to save one's life. Someone who refuses to violate Sabbath in such case is compared to a murderer.

 

To consider this opinion a part of Judaism is as wrong as to claim that "a Muslim must kill his daughter, if she went swimming in bikini on a public beach". Probably you can find some crazy Salafi leaders who support this idea, so you can say that it's "not totally unfounded", but it does not anyhow represent Islam. The same here.

Well put. When I said not totally unfounded I actually meant I didn't make it up myself. Of course we find things here and there. You've seen all kinds of things about Christians, as well, I'm sure. If not, stick around and a Muslim will tell you some sooner or later. ;)

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Could you please tell us what are the major differences between SDA and the mainstream Christians - such as Protestants and Catholics.

 

And how and when did it begin?

 

Thanks very much

 

Of course. 

 

SDA Christians...

 

Believe God's Law - the Ten Commandments - are valid and therefore keep the weekly 7th-day Sabbath 

Believe in the health laws and therefore believe in refraining from unclean foods, such as pork and restricted foods (refrain from alcohol etc)

Believe in the sanctuary message (which includes the investigative judgment) 

Believe in soul sleep (that the dead remain in the grave until the second coming of Christ or the resurrection of the unrighteous to destruction)

 

Seventh-Day Adventism officially began after the Great Disappointment out of those who decided to reexamine the understanding of the "cleansing of the sanctuary."

 

We are considered Protestant but definitely non-mainstream.

Edited by iere

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Hi iere

 

Thanks for that info.  Three more questions.

  • How many Christians all over the world are known to be affiliated with SDA?
  • Why do you forbid pork when Paul allowed it and Jesus did not forbid it? 
  • Same question for alcohol? 

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Hi iere

 

Thanks for that info.  Three more questions.

  • How many Christians all over the world are known to be affiliated with SDA?
  • Why do you forbid pork when Paul allowed it and Jesus did not forbid it? 
  • Same question for alcohol? 

 

 

There are approximately 18 million SDAs worldwide. Additionally, there similar Sabbath-keeping Christian groups in existence as well. 

 

Actually, we do not share the same understanding as mainstream Christians and Muslims regarding Paul or Jesus on the issue of pork or other matters. Paul did not allow pork consumption and neither did Jesus in our understanding. Jesus kept the health laws and did not do away with them. We perceive the popular understanding to be a misinterpretation of Scripture, similar to the (false) idea that God's Ten Commandments should not be kept in their entirety. 

 

The same applies to alcohol although that issue also involves understanding the intricacies of translation.

Edited by iere

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If I am not mistaken, the Noahides (righteous non-Jews) are forbidden from keeping the Sabbath and any other Jewish holidays unless they are living as a Jew with the intention of conversion. Maybe a Jew could correct me if I'm wrong?

But anyways, it must be nice being the almighty. Christians gave him Sunday, Jews gave him Saturday, and Muslims gave him Friday. God gets a 3 day weekend. :!!!:

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Yup, the Sabbath was commanded to the Children of Israel, as a sign of their covenant. Therefore, if you arn't Jewish, then it isn't your covenant to keep. Its considered creating a new religious practice, and we are prohibited from creating a new religion. That being said, a non-Jew can still attend a synagogue for Sabbath (although I think Satmars and Breslovs won't allow it) for the purpose of learning or enjoyment, but not to actually "keep" the Sabbath and it's commandments.

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Happened on to a site for Seventh Day Adventists. Quite interesting, actually awesome. As a child I remember asking my Father about the difference in our religions, and the only thing was they worship on Saturdays, we worship on Sundays. I don't think I even asked why. This was small town Ontario, and their colony was on the other side of the Indian reservation a few more than a few, and a couple more years ago, but I remember them as very nice people, easy to distinguish, like Mennonites, or (out here) Hutterites. Hutterites I'm not sure about yet, but SDA's or Mennonites were always easy and pleasant to meet. Hutterites sell really good over sized but not GMO'd chickens in one colony, eggs in another, and AAA, ( a unique world standard) grade beef, they all sell veggies, I just haven't grasped their full beliefs yet.

 

If I may,

I received an email the other day I thought was rather humorous in a "too bad it's almost true" kinda way, not to mention it was only hundreds of miles away from my little home town with a Calvary Baptist church. To quote Emo Phillips, about 25 years ago...

 

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.

 

I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879,

or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. 

 

It's too bad the Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 are so prejudice. Imagine if the rest of the world was like that, where would we be?

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