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In the Name of God بسم الله
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herenow477

O Christians And Jews !

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O followers of the book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. 3:48

The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.

Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper

 Say: O followers of the book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors? 

Say: O followers of the book! be not unduly immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path. 

When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. 



 

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Oh Christians and Jews! Stick to what your Prophet has taught you and listen not to immature fools (a fraction your age), who would rather dissuade you from your studies and quest for truth, while they admonish their carnal goals 

 

Please tell us again how wretched we are.

 

When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. 

 

I believe in Jesus by God's permission, got a problem with that?

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Son of Placid, herenow477 was simply quoting from the Qur'an which is the Word of God. So in essence it is God who is addressing you.

 

You response was so unChristian. Oh and BTW what has age got to do with anything? If someone is telling you not to jump in the fire, are you going to ask them their age first?

 

 

I believe in Jesus by God's permission, got a problem with that?

 

 

It depends on what your belief in Jesus (peace be upon him) is based on. If it's as a Messenger of God, then fine, otherwise on the Day of Judgement, God will have a problem with that.

 

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They wish to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths (by uttering blasphemies); but Allah refuses but to perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may resent it. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the disbelievers may resent it. [Chapter 9:32-33]

 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79

Say, “We have adopted the baptism (guidance) of Allah; and who is better than Allah in baptising? And we are worshipers of Him alone.” [Chapter 2:138]
And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

 

The Jews will never be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you follow their faith. Say, “Indeed guidance from Allah alone is the true guidance.” And if you were to follow their evil desires after the knowledge you have been given, you will find neither a guardian nor any helper to protect you from Allah. [Chapter 2:120]
 

And they say: “Become Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided.” Say, “Never, but we follow the faith of Ibraheem (Abraham), the upright one; he was not of polytheists.” [Chapter 2:135]

They have taken their priests and monks for Lords besides Allah. And (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. Though they were commanded to worship but the One God. There is no God but He. Exalted is He, far above what they associate with Him![Chapter 9:31]

And they (Jews and Christians) say: “None shall enter Paradise except they be Jews or Christians.” These are their own wishful fancies. Say (to them), “Bring forth your proof, if you are truthful.” [Chapter 2:111]

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Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and argue with them in the best way possible. Your Lord surely knows best who has gone astray from His way, and He knows best who are the rightly guided. (Al Nahl 16:125)

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Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and argue with them in the best way possible. Your Lord surely knows best who has gone astray from His way, and He knows best who are the rightly guided. (Al Nahl 16:125)

The verses quoted above by the OP are among the most beautiful verses in Quran, each one has a story and each one discusses a belief , some of them were replay to questions or objections raised by People of the book back then.

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Son of Placid, herenow477 was simply quoting from the Qur'an which is the Word of God. So in essence it is God who is addressing you.

 

You response was so unChristian. Oh and BTW what has age got to do with anything? If someone is telling you not to jump in the fire, are you going to ask them their age first?

 

 

 

 

It depends on what your belief in Jesus (peace be upon him) is based on. If it's as a Messenger of God, then fine, otherwise on the Day of Judgement, God will have a problem with that.

Hi Azizasul, didn't mean to upset you. Read around.

No worries, I don't jump in fires anyway. My guess is post teen, not quite ready to meet the world.  I raised five kids, the last one grew out of that stage five years ago.

 

I would believe your explanation if this thread wasn't part of such a classic anti Christian format. Herenow didn't invent it, he only copy/pastes. It's been on Answering Christianity. com for many years. Every once in a while somebody brings it all back to the surface, uh, for our edification perhaps? Is Herenow an evangelist maybe?

Not usually. It's to help you believe Christians are retarded.

 

When you read these threads of flagrant claims you either believe them straight up, or question them. Note how not one question has been answered in any of the OP's threads/posts. The only response is to go on to the next ridiculous thing he's read about Christians. The idea is not to give proper source, nor truth, nor explanation for any of the copy/paste, just to blurt out claims.

 

In between it's always good to toss a bunch of Ayats from the Quran into the mix, which supposedly tell you how bad Christians are, and even they are out of context.

 

The best part of it all, he has no idea who/what a Christian is, nor what the Christians in the forum believe, nor has he any respect, nor interest in finding out before blurting out the most retarded of statements directed at them. The more ridiculous the Christians are, the better a Muslim he is ;)

 

where they stuff themselves with turkey and alcohol

 

 

You really think so? Is that what the Christians on this forum do? Maybe you could ask? I was kinda surprised it didn't say pork and alcohol, but then I realized it's someone elses work and only a copy/paste, so the poster is not editing his full intentions.

we dont eat but very select food which must be halal and not najas but tahir

 

 

Quran 5:5

This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; You were saying??

 

Having said all that.

If you go back and look at the good conversations and the knowledge in threads past, then you have to see the anti Christian campaign again it gets on your nerves.

TAKE NOTE; I'm not a Trinitarian so maybe you can understand why being told repeatedly that I am gets somewhat annoying.

 

Jesus said I have to love him, never said I have to like him. Paul said "With as much as lies within you, live at peace with all men."

After seeing this campaign a dozen times...

 

So now you can see how my response was still Christian. :)

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Quran 5:5

This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; You were saying??

 

 

here is the problem that your not taking into consideration

that which was allowed and that which was forbidden to the people of the book originally, was eventually abrogated and nullified by the Christians and Jews of today, like in the old testament you are told not to eat pork, but today Christians eat pork 

what was ORIGINALLY forbidden is still forbidden to us Muslims, and what was originally allowed is still allowed, however you perverted your books and your religion, and hence why God int eh Quran is constantly condemning you for it

"woe onto those who write their books with their own hands and say this is from Allah " 

 the books you have today, are the books that have been written with "your own hands" which many historians have concluded, the original tawrat and injeel and those laws were long ago forsook by the people of the book 

if you had followed the laws of the real books in which "what was allowed to the people of the books is allowed to you.." we wouldn't have any problems, because those laws are divine laws which are timeless 

so let me reiterate , you dont belong to the "people of the book" you belong to "woe onto those who write their books with their own hands and say this is from Allah" the laws you create is what has created all of these problems , like i said in the old testament so much was forbidden, but in the "new testament" you changed all of the divine laws and nothing was forbidden anymore 

 

Edited by herenow477

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They wish to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths (by uttering blasphemies); but Allah refuses but to perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may resent it. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the disbelievers may resent it. [Chapter 9:32-33]

This Ayat is about disbelievers. Not once, (show me) does the Quran call Jews or Christians disbelievers.

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79

And who says this book is the Bible? The best you can do is implied by hadith. Note also the present tense. This ayat is not talking about the Bible at all, but what hadith is about to do to the Quran. What was their gain? Being one of the "somebody said that" people half way down some hadith must have been a great gain, right?

We have adopted the baptism (guidance) of Allah; and who is better than Allah in baptising? And we are worshipers of Him alone. [Chapter 2:138]

Why this ayat is here I don't know. We have just bounced to Christians who believe in one God. Are you sure you want this ayat here? If you're trying to drag Christianity into polytheism this ayat does not work.

And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

Somebody said that somebody said that somebody said that...

The Jews will never be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you follow their faith. Say, Indeed guidance from Allah alone is the true guidance. And if you were to follow their evil desires after the knowledge you have been given, you will find neither a guardian nor any helper to protect you from Allah. [Chapter 2:120]

Nobody will ever be pleased with you as long as you're out to bash their religion. Never once tried to make a Christian out of you. I'd be more than happy if you just became a good Muslim.

And they say: Become Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided. Say, Never, but we follow the faith of Ibraheem (Abraham), the upright one; he was not of polytheists. [Chapter 2:135]

This is an interesting ayat because just go ahead and spend the rest of your life trying to become a Jew.

They have taken their priests and monks for Lords besides Allah. And (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. Though they were commanded to worship but the One God. There is no God but He. Exalted is He, far above what they associate with Him![Chapter 9:31]

Catholics have priests that don't become saints, who worships monks? Maybe Muslims should stop praying to their past Imams as well. Dead is dead, wishful thinking is fantasy.

And they (Jews and Christians) say: None shall enter Paradise except they be Jews or hristians. These are their own wishful fancies. Say (to them), Bring forth your proof, if you are truthful. [Chapter 2:111]

So that's ayat 111, what about 112? ever even read it, or just come up with a reason to ignore it?

Of course I'm still back in the last thread asking you who is the daughter of Babylon. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath.

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here is the problem that your not taking into consideration

that which was allowed and that which was forbidden to the people of the book originally, was eventually abrogated and nullified by the Christians and Jews of today, like in the old testament you are told not to eat pork, but today Christians eat pork 

what was ORIGINALLY forbidden is still forbidden to us Muslims, and what was originally allowed is still allowed, however you perverted your books and your religion, and hence why God int eh Quran is constantly condemning you for it

"woe onto those who write their books with their own hands and say this is from Allah " 

 the books you have today, are the books that have been written with "your own hands" which many historians have concluded, the original tawrat and injeel and those laws were long ago forsook by the people of the book 

if you had followed the laws of the real books in which "what was allowed to the people of the books is allowed to you.." we wouldn't have any problems, because those laws are divine laws which are timeless 

so let me reiterate , you dont belong to the "people of the book" you belong to "woe onto those who write their books with their own hands and say this is from Allah" the laws you create is what has created all of these problems , like i said in the old testament so much was forbidden, but in the "new testament" you changed all of the divine laws and nothing was forbidden anymore 

 

Once again nice try but shows how mislead you are. It's very obvious you don't really have an opinion of your own. These laws weren't nullified along the way. Guess what...If you're not a Jew you're a gentile. According to kosher rules Jews can only eat the front end of a cow. Now rather than getting stuck with the unclean end it is described in the OT that they can give it to the strangers within the gates, or sell it to foreigners outside the gates. So which are you? Jew or Gentile? . You are either inside or outside the gate. How do these rules apply to gentiles when Jews can sell Gentiles of their spoils?

Obviously God did not put such rules on the Gentiles.

 

You are not taking into consideration that your theories are flawed, and therefore your conclusions are delusions..

 

Hey, what's originally forbidden to Jews, and Muhammad wants to keep forbidden to you as well, go with it, but it gives no reason to  judge the rest of the world by your limitations.

Edited by Son of Placid

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Once again nice try but shows how mislead you are. It's very obvious you don't really have an opinion of your own. These laws weren't nullified along the way. Guess what...If you're not a Jew you're a gentile. According to kosher rules Jews can only eat the front end of a cow. Now rather than getting stuck with the unclean end it is described in the OT that they can give it to the strangers within the gates, or sell it to foreigners outside the gates. So which are you? Jew or Gentile? . You are either inside or outside the gate. How do these rules apply to gentiles when Jews can sell Gentiles of their spoils?

Obviously God did not put such rules on the Gentiles.

 

You are not taking into consideration that your theories are flawed, and therefore your conclusions are delusions..

 

Hey, what's originally forbidden to Jews, and Muhammad wants to keep forbidden to you as well, go with it, but it gives no reason to  judge the rest of the world by your limitations.

God condemns the Jews and Christians in the Quran many times for "writing the books with their own hands" and for "accepting part of the book and part of the book concealing it behind their backs"

besides we DONT need to reffer to YOUR corrupted books to know the law, the QURAN provides the law and tells us what we can and cannot eat which is being the law not as of Muhammad(PBUH) but the same law all the Prophets practised, Islam wasnt CREATED, it was completed with the "seal of the Prophets" Muhammad  , and the Prophet also reiterated these laws which we have been following for 1400 years without stop or change or "revision" like the Christians and Jews have been doing

what your describing is tradition, and again tradition based on books which people wrote who didnt like what God had for them

in the Quran God says that the Israelis killed their Prophets, and as we know didnt accept Jesus(pbuh) either, so if they didnt accept the Prophets why would they accept their books? they obviously didnt otherwise they wouldnt need to kill the Prophets bringing them this news 

what you follow today is conjecture and i have proved the amount of discrepancies and nonsense in the bible which is beyond a sane persons reason , plagiarism, confusion, contradictions, and opinion galore 

the whole Bible is one perverted book that had been "hacked" long ago, hence why today so many Christians are confused, even amongst your denominations you have some who think so differently in their domga that is is like anothe religion

the Catholics says Mary is mother of God

the Jehovah witness dont believe Jesus is God or his mother being a God (as far as i had heard) 

the Protestants have something else

the other denominations have another set of rules and beliefs 

i know one Jehovah witness who tells me that alcohol and pork is forbidden according to them 

one bible has 52 books, another has 72 

you people yourself cant work out a fundamental belief, and every one of these deoniminations claim to be the right one

then you have the churches who are like business

and of course you have the so MANY verses of the Bible which themselves proclaim that Jesus is not God , let me remind you

 

Jesus said:  “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels

 

which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”  (Mark, 13:32)

he clearly says the one who doesnt know is a man, meaning himself, 

and finally Jesus said

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deutronomy 6:4

(Jesus) said:  “I can of mine own self do nothing.” (John, 5:30)

and then the plagiarism in your bible is just a joke 

not to mention the amount of times your bible has been "revised" and changed so significantly despite that in the bible it says 

Revelation 22:18-19 says, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

“The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160)

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it”(also Deuteronomy 12:32)

Looks like you have already got the plague of confusion by your own standings 

 

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Herenow, you can't blame son of placid for different Christian denominations existing. Sunni and Shia can't even agree of the Adhan. Religion has it's divisions. People interpret their holy books differently. Sorry. You can't just lump people into one group or another, it's much more tedious than that. And when we take the time acknowledge that, we all learn from each other!

Salam and Shalom

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Herenow, you can't blame son of placid for different Christian denominations existing. Sunni and Shia can't even agree of the Adhan. Religion has it's divisions. People interpret their holy books differently. Sorry. You can't just lump people into one group or another, it's much more tedious than that. And when we take the time acknowledge that, we all learn from each other!

Salam and Shalom

every religion got corrupted after the Prophet passed away, even this fact is stated in the Quran, how the nations went astray during and after their Prophets left them, this fact i dont deny

in Shia Islam God gave us the certainty that we will never go astray as long as we keep hold of two weighty things, the Quran and the Ahlul Bayt, however unfortunately as we know alot of our brothers had gone down the wrong path the moment the Prophet died, and turned Islam into something else i.e the caliphate that had nothing to do with the vicegerent , but us Shia we have hold onto the promise and the covenant to the Prophet and his family and are on the right path, however our Imam is in occultation and we are waiting for the final return and for the world to attain peace, but since the Prophets passing away, the Imams have kept us in line and check those of us who voluntarily followed them and accepted them, and they still do keep us in line and check i.e teh Imam(ajtf) is like th sun behind the clouds as he has told us , but no doubt that Islam had also been corrupted, and to say today that Islam is intact we would be fools to make such a claim , and the biggest proof of that is th state of Muslims in the world, they are as one would say at the bottom of the barrel, while the so called "leaders" except a few are allies with the ones killing their people i.e Israel/America/Saudia/England etc 

  

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Hi herenow,

Quote from Post 4:

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79

I see that in your last posts, 10, 13, and 15, you have revealed who you are, and what you believe from what you have been taught.

Since you use good verses from the Quran, taken out of context and wrongly applied, you try to build your ‘wall of offense’ but then you explain yourself as one who is disappointed even with Muslims who are at war in the world.

There are no Christian countries in the world so that you can blame individuals for things that happen. --- Believing Christians are ‘in the world’ but not ‘of the world.’

You have no doubt learned the high ideals of Islam, which is ‘surrender unto God.’ but you don’t see it practiced in others, --- but true Muslims are also, ‘in the world’ but not ‘of the world.’ --- And how can you be ‘submissive to God,’ --- and be fighting your neighbor at the same time? --- It doesn’t go together, does it?

--- About the time you think you can play ‘the blame game,’ you see that your high ideals are betrayed by your own people, and you want to find fault with the Scriptures, and those who follow them.

--- And you use good verses from the Quran, that had meaning at the time they were written, --- so it is good to know what you are talking about.

The above verse is taken from the context which really starts at 2:63, in the days of Moses, then comes up to remind them of the Jews in the time of Jesus, and here it is speaking to these Jews in Madinah in 624 AD.

--- The Jews had welcomed him there to start with, but now, when the Jews in Madinah had taken offense to Muhammad, --- their hearts were hard, it says in Surah 2:

74 Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness. For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush, and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water floweth from them. And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah. Allah is not unaware of what ye do.

75 Have ye any hope that they (the Jews) will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?

--- (In 624 AD they couldn’t change any Scriptures which were written from centuries before, they could only change what they wrote or taught about it.)

76 Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": But when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what God hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?" - Do ye not understand (their aim)?

--- (They were hypocrites and tried to argue against Muhammad’s teaching.)

77 Are they then unaware that Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim?

78 Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.

--- (They would ‘copy-paste’ what they heard from others, but it would be recorded on their account in heaven, because God keeps account of everything we say and do.)

--- (Then this verse):

79 Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

--- (If they were writing Scripture with their hands, that is not changing Scripture, it is writing ‘their version.’ --- Among the Jews there were ‘prophets,’ so they could write books and sell them, --- which is what people do to voice their opinion.)

--- It is the same as you today, you copy-paste something that somebody else wrote, and try to promote it.

Just like people today who write books against Islam and Christianity and sell them, so ‘woe to them.’ --- And history proves that the Jews didn’t prevail in their opposition to Muhammad. --- And what they wrote had nothing to do with changing the written Scriptures, which were 'confirmed' by Gabriel as being true, in Surah 3:3 and 5:48.

Placid

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herenow477, can you give me the Qur'anic verse that tells us that?

of course i can , thats easy

Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an

In a Book kept hidden

None touch it except the purified.

A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

33:33

....Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

So as you can see, the Quran and its true meaning on all levels and degrees, are only with those who are thoroughly purified, and in the verse God shows that the MOST purified is the Ahlul Bayt

 

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This Ayat is about disbelievers. Not once, (show me) does the Quran call Jews or Christians disbelievers.

 

SO you think that we made this up? We decided to call you disbelievers? The Quran is VERY straightforward about this fact, if you believe that Jesus is God and if you change the laws of God and if you corrupt and pervert the message of God you are a disbeliever

Here is some verse to prove that fact

Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.

Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth (that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.

And they say, "Be Jews or christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), "Nay, (we follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (those who worshipped others along with Allah - see V.2:105)."

A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians)! Why do you stop those who have believed, from the Path of Allah, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم as a Messenger of Allah and Islam (Allah's religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."

O you who believe! If you obey a group of those who were given the Scripture (Jews and christians), they would (indeed) render you disbelievers after you have believed!

You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and his Sunnah] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah . And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses) if you understand.

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

O people of the Scripture (christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

And from those who call themselves christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

And (both) the Jews and the christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliya'), then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).

O you who believe! Take not as Auliya' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion as a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and christians) before you, and nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allah if you indeed are true believers.

And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) had believed (in Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allah) and had become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2) We would indeed have expiated from them their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path."

They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

And to warn those (Jews, christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."

Then the sects differed [i.e. the christians about 'Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Îsa (Jesus) is the son of Allah] from the Meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire) .

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) and Al-Mushrikun, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.

 

Im not trying to make any of you a Muslim, our religion is not about "conversion" whether you be a christian or atheist or alive or dead, really makes no difference to us

you can live how you like , we dont really care

when you have the truht yor not bothered by falsehood in any way , but you are the ones who feel threatened by us because what you have is very quickly slipping from your hands

Edited by herenow477

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^  :)

 

I now see why he cuts and pastes.  He is unable to quote properly, 

 

 

of course i can , thats easy


33:33

....Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.


 

 

The complete verse,

 

"Women of the Household (of Muhammad  (pbuh) ), God seeks only to remove uncleanness from you and to purify you."

 

How you arrive at your conclusions based on evidence you present is a mystery.  

 

This is probably Wisdom Lion playing around with a second Shia Chat profile.  Their style and leaps in logic are near identical.

 

All the Best,

David

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^  :)

 

I now see why he cuts and pastes.  He is unable to quote properly, 

 

 

 

The complete verse,

 

"Women of the Household (of Muhammad  (pbuh) ), God seeks only to remove uncleanness from you and to purify you."

 

How you arrive at your conclusions based on evidence you present is a mystery.  

 

This is probably Wisdom Lion playing around with a second Shia Chat profile.  Their style and leaps in logic are near identical.

 

All the Best,

David

Didn't you know that Christians and Jews are women of the household (of Muhammad)???  Herenow knows this, amongst other things. :dry:

I'm not going to waste my day on this, just a couple points about us women of the household...

SO you think that we made this up? We decided to call you disbelievers? The Quran is VERY straightforward about this fact, if you believe that Jesus is God and if you change the laws of God and if you corrupt and pervert the message of God you are a disbeliever

First off, I've already told you I don't believe Jesus is God but you can't help but ignore that because you have a "higher calling"

 

Don't forget. When you take ayats from the Quran you have a responsibility to not only read them in context, but believe them in context, and also to teach in that context. Soon as you stray from the original context it is you who corrupts and perverts. Good job so far with that...

 

Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.

Those who disbelieve AMONG the people does not mean "the people" except when your mind is bent on being the (only) best. This ayat gives you no right to put all Christians in the same pot as the rest, (in brackets)<----- These brackets mean these works were added by either the transmitter or translator, and NOT the true words of the Quran. Just adds to the corruption rut you've already fallen into.

Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth (that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.

(that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) is the translators assumption/corruption. Note how your translations are changing as they go along. Don't talk to me about corruption.

And they say, "Be Jews or christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), "Nay, (we follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (those who worshipped others along with Allah - see V.2:105)."

Find one Jew who would invite you to be a Jew.

As soon as you throw in (to them O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), you insist that this is directed at Muhammad only. The translator goofs this up by adding (we follow) six bits later. Who's we? Does Muhammad consider himself a we?

A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

You are once again translating "A party of the people" into ALL the people.

 

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account) 3:199

Im not trying to make any of you a Muslim, our religion is not about "conversion" whether you be a christian or atheist or alive or dead, really makes no difference to us

you can live how you like , we dont really care

You don't care so much that you twist your own scriptures to prove your supremacy in supplication. Good job ;)

when you have the truht yor not bothered by falsehood in any way , but you are the ones who feel threatened by us because what you have is very quickly slipping from your hands

Considering yor spelling and grammar you'd be better to stick to the copy/paste.

 

If nothing else, get this straight. I am not in any way threatened by what the Quran (actually) says. It's little Muslims who think they can remove Christians from heaven by twisting the truth they have into the lies they need. It's not threatening, it's annoying, even to other Muslims.

Don't be thinking you have the truth. I don't see a gang of (descent) Muslims running after your cause. One would assume truth has a following, you however have wisdom lion. Sorry about your luck.

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Hi David

 

I am not trying to defend anyone.

 

And I am not sure what the reference to [33:33] is to the discussion here.

 

Amyway, the full verse is not as you mentioned, rather as follows :-

 

[33:33] And stay in your homes and display not your finery as in the days of ignorance. But observe prayer  and give in alms. And obey God and the Apostle. Indeed God intends to keep from you all uncleanliness, O People of the Household and clean you thoroughly.

 

The important thing about this verse is that while the first part of the verse is addressed to the wives, the second, that I have italicized and emboldened is not.

 

Why?

 

Because in Arabic grammar, the object of the second part of the verse consists of at least one male.  So it could not have been addressed to the wives.

 

In other words, while the first part is addressed to the wives, the second is not.

 

Cheers

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The common understanding of all Muslims is that the verse [33:33] begins its address to the wives.

 

But it later changes and the latter part is addressed to the Prophet's household (his Ahlul Bayt), which may or may not include the wives, depending on whether you are Sunni or Shia.

 

"Indeed God intends to keep from you all uncleanliness, O People of the Household and clean you thoroughly."

 

As far as the interpretation of this second part therefore is concerned, according to

  • Sunnis - it is addressed to the wives, the Prophet, his daughter, her husband Imam Ali and their two sons, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain
  • Shias -  it is addressed only to the Prophet, his daughter, her husband Imam Ali and their two sons, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain, but not the wives.  

In other words, for the Sunnis, the wives are included but for the Shias, they are not.

Edited by baqar

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Hello IloveImamHussain, 

 

Thank you for the information.  

 

However, the verse I quoted 33:33 is what is written in my Quran.  It is an English version translation by N. J. Dawood.  And, from 33:30 to 33:35, there is no mention of males in Muhammad's  (pbuh) family or a household.  What translation are you quoting from?

 

All the Best,

David

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Hi David

 

That is the problem with translations. They are never perfect. In the English translation, you can never identify a male being mentioned. The fact that, as I mentioned,  at least one male is included in the second part is acknowledged by a feature of Arabic grammar.

 

It is very hard to explain the point in English.

 

The translation I have given you is in relatively modern English. Anyway, here are a few other translations in old English, which effectively mean the same as what I have given:-

 

RODWELL

 

And abide still in your houses and go not in public decked as in the days of your former ignorance. But observe prayer and pay the impost. And obey God and the apostle. For God desireth to  put filthiness away from you, as his household and with cleansing yo cleanse you.

 

ARBERRY

 

Remain in your houses; and display not your finery, as did the pagans of old. And perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His Messenger. People of the House, God only desires to put away from you abomination and to cleanse you.

 

PICKTHALL

 

And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing. 

 

Cheers

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Pickthall and Rodwell are not 100% right either because unlike Arberry, they skip the term 'People of the House'

 

Perhaps under the influence of Sunnis, who form the majority among Muslims, they assume that the entire verse is addressed to the wives.

 

But it is not. 

 

The expression "Ahlul Bayt" ('People of the House') is definitely mentioned in the second part of the verse.

 

Yusuf Ali says as follows:- "And stay quietly in your houses and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance. And establish regular prayer and give regular charity. And obey God and the apostle. God only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the family, and to make you pure and spotless."

 

Arberry says 'People of the House' while Yusuf Ali says 'members of the family'. 

 

Same thing, I suppose!

Edited by baqar

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Hi David

 

You might find it funny that the Quran addresses half the verse to one set of people and the other half to another.

 

Indeed, I could give you at least one other example where the Quran does that.

 

[12:29] O Joseph, turn away from this. And (O woman)  ask forgiveness for thy sin. Thou art of the faulty.

 

Do you see 'O woman' is in brackets?. The reason is that 'O woman' is not actually mentioned in the verse.

 

If not explicitly or implicitly stated,one would normally expect an entire verse to be addressed to the same person or persons.

 

But from a point of Arabic grammar, the second part of the verse just could not have been addressed to anyone but a woman. 

 

The verse begins with an address to Joseph. The second part needs to be addressed to someone who happens to be female -  in this case, the woman who tried to seduce Joseph  (son of Jacob).

 

The same thing is true of [33:33].  The first part is addressed to the wives of the Prophet but for the second part, the gender changes. 

 

According to the rules of Arabic grammar,  the second part of the verse just could not have been addressed to the wives of the Prophet.

 

It needs to include at least one male.

And as mentioned by other posters, both Shias and Sunnis accept the grammatical subtlety but have a slightly different interpretation of who exactly is meant in the second part .

 

Regards 

Edited by PeaceLoving

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Didn't you know that Christians and Jews are women of the household (of Muhammad)???  Herenow knows this, amongst other things. :dry:

I'm not going to waste my day on this, just a couple points about us women of the household...

 

 

First off, I've already told you I don't believe Jesus is God but you can't help but ignore that because you have a "higher calling"

 

Don't forget. When you take ayats from the Quran you have a responsibility to not only read them in context, but believe them in context, and also to teach in that context. Soon as you stray from the original context it is you who corrupts and perverts. Good job so far with that...

 

 

 

Those who disbelieve AMONG the people does not mean "the people" except when your mind is bent on being the (only) best. This ayat gives you no right to put all Christians in the same pot as the rest, (in brackets)<----- These brackets mean these works were added by either the transmitter or translator, and NOT the true words of the Quran. Just adds to the corruption rut you've already fallen into.

 

 

(that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) is the translators assumption/corruption. Note how your translations are changing as they go along. Don't talk to me about corruption.

 

 

Find one Jew who would invite you to be a Jew.

As soon as you throw in (to them O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), you insist that this is directed at Muhammad only. The translator goofs this up by adding (we follow) six bits later. Who's we? Does Muhammad consider himself a we?

 

 

You are once again translating "A party of the people" into ALL the people.

 

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account) 3:199

 

 

You don't care so much that you twist your own scriptures to prove your supremacy in supplication. Good job ;)

 

 

Considering yor spelling and grammar you'd be better to stick to the copy/paste.

 

If nothing else, get this straight. I am not in any way threatened by what the Quran (actually) says. It's little Muslims who think they can remove Christians from heaven by twisting the truth they have into the lies they need. It's not threatening, it's annoying, even to other Muslims.

Don't be thinking you have the truth. I don't see a gang of (descent) Muslims running after your cause. One would assume truth has a following, you however have wisdom lion. Sorry about your luck.

This is the sickness of EVERY Christian i have ever spoken with

When they bring up the Quran or when the Quran is brought up

"SUDDENLY!" every Christian becomes an expert on the Quran and Quran /Arabic literature, suddenly they focus on one word or one part and try to deform it and twist it to try to give "their demented interpertation" which they have only learned this dirty tactic from their own books which they hardly read, in fact usually you Christians dont even know your own Books and yet you claim to be suddenly experts on the Quran? how delusional can a person get?

well here is a news flas for you

you probably never have even seen these verses before i put them up, and you DEFINITLEY dont know anythign about them or can give the meaning of them , these verses God condemns the Christians for many thngs in a very strifghtforward and simple understandable fashio which evena child can understand

God calls the Christians many things in teh Quran for their MANY mistakes that they do

Disbelievers for disbelieving in the books/laws/rules/God/truth:

O you who believe! If you obey a group of those who were given the Scripture (Jews and christians), they would (indeed) render you disbelievers after you have believed!

Then the sects differed [i.e. the christians about 'Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Îsa (Jesus) is the son of Allah] from the Meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire) .

Disobedient to God:

You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and his Sunnah] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah . And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).

 

Writing ths book with their own hands:

Going completely out of religion, and following thei desires, and exceeding their limits set upon them by God:

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path."

Kicked out of Paradise:

And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) had believed (in Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allah) and had become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2) We would indeed have expiated from them their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).

Mockers of God and Islam:

O you who believe! Take not as Auliya' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion as a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and christians) before you, and nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allah if you indeed are true believers.

Losers/Zalim:

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliya'), then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).

Claim to be God's chosen peopel when they are not:

And (both) the Jews and the christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).

 

Breaking the commandments:

O people of the Scripture (christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Forsakers of God's laws:

And from those who call themselves christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

 

Musriq (worshipping others besides God):

They have taken their priests and monks for Lords besides Allah. And (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. Though they were commanded to worship but the One God. There is no God but He. Exalted is He, far above what they associate with Him![Chapter 9:31]

Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) and Al-Mushrikun, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.

Transgressors:

Say: O followers of the book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

Following desires and gone astray:

Say: O followers of the book! be not unduly immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path.

Liars , those who lie and twist words in order to try to avert others beliefs :

O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

O followers of the book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. 3:48

They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

They wish to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths (by uttering blasphemies); but Allah refuses but to perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may resent it. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the disbelievers may resent it. [Chapter 9:32-33]

Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.

Jelous and evil intent:

Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth (that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses) if you understand.

Misguided and trying to misguide others:

And they say, "Be Jews or christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), "Nay, (we follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (those who worshipped others along with Allah - see V.2:105)."

And they say: “Become Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided.” Say, “Never, but we follow the faith of Ibraheem (Abraham), the upright one; he was not of polytheists.” [Chapter 2:135]

The Jews will never be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you follow their faith. Say, “Indeed guidance from Allah alone is the true guidance.” And if you were to follow their evil desires after the knowledge you have been given, you will find neither a guardian nor any helper to protect you from Allah. [Chapter 2:120]

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians)! Why do you stop those who have believed, from the Path of Allah, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم as a Messenger of Allah and Islam (Allah's religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."

And they (Jews and Christians) say: “None shall enter Paradise except they be Jews or Christians.” These are their own wishful fancies. Say (to them), “Bring forth your proof, if you are truthful.” [Chapter 2:111]

Writing their laws and books witht heir own hands after truth has come to them:

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79

the funniest thing is that you try to explain a book you have no idea about, and wish to change in order to twist things into your own demented and perverted view, and you fail to even understand and grasp your own books, of which you have only become masters at demneting and perverting in order to suit your desires of what you wish to worship and believe

well you can never an will never apply the same rhetoric to the Quran, because the Quran exposes each one of your topics, but your blindness and every other Christians blindness makes you blind to see anything, despite that it is in front of you

and you try to disregard it with petty excuses by lying and deforming the words of God which so beautifully expose your every ignorance and evil

Edited by herenow477

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This is the sickness of EVERY Christian i have ever spoken with.

 

I am afraid you are not being entirely fair to them. The only way you can convince them is by polite and courteous conversation. I think I have already pointed this out to you before.

As for the verses you have quoted, I am sure you are aware that quoting the Quran out of context is not entirely meaningful.

 

Please note that 

  • occasionally the Quran also speaks well both of Jews and Christians, and 
  • the verses you have quoted refer, in most cases, to the Jews & Christians in the context of revelation, not to every J/C from Adam till this day.   

The fact that the Quran occasionally speaks well of them, is evidence that it does not wish to tarnish all Jews & Christians with the same brush. 

 

I hope you will appreciate my point in trying to make our discourse more effective, congenial and useful.  

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I am afraid you are not being entirely fair to them. The only way you can convince them is by polite and courteous conversation. I think I have already pointed this out to you before.

As for the verses you have quoted, I am sure you are aware that quoting the Quran out of context is not entirely meaningful.

 

Please note that 

  • occasionally the Quran also speaks well both of Jews and Christians, and 
  • the verses you have quoted refer, in most cases, to the Jews & Christians in the context of revelation, not to every J/C from Adam till this day.   

The fact that the Quran occasionally speaks well of them, is evidence that it does not wish to tarnish all Jews & Christians with the same brush. 

 

I hope you will appreciate my point in trying to make our discourse more effective, congenial and useful.  

Geez it must only be me then, so many verses about them and even more obvious their actions and lifestyle

they had ALL the laws we had, i.e dont eat dont fornicate, dont lie, dont steal, dont etc

Just because they are not in the limits of Islam, doesnt mean they were allowed to lie or fornicate or eat porn or drink alcohol, they were forbideen everything but they changed it and perverted and you have what you have today

a lost nations

 

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Geez it must only be me then, so many verses about them 

 

As baqar has already mentioned, however many verses there may be reprimanding Jews & Christians, those verses do not apply to every Jew or Christian.

 

Besides, you totally ignore the many verses that are in rebuke of Muslims. 

 

And even more obvious their actions and lifestyle

 

And what about Muslims?

 

Muslims killed the Prophet's grandson and 18 members of his family in one day.  

 

They took the grand-daughters of the Prophet in custody, kept them in prison and tortured them.

 

All our Imams were killed by Muslims.

 

Not one of them was killed by a non-Muslim.

 

And what are we doing now.

 

In 2013, 8000 (eight thousand) Shias were killed by other Muslims in Iraq alone.

 

And add to that the number of Muslims killed in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Syria.

 

Christians may be bad but we are not all that good either. 

 

My friend, my sincere advice to you is to go easy on them.

 

Do argue your points with them firmly and fiercely but please do so in a manner that convinces them.

 

I am not trying to criticize you. 

 

Just that we should all try to give non-Muslims a better understanding of Islam in a dignified manner.

 

I am sure you are a good Muslim and you will take my advice well.

 

Thanks, brother

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"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria."

Jesus sends down bears to kill some kids lol. What sick, lies

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Hi David

 

 

That is the problem with translations. They are never perfect. In the English translation, you can never identify a male being mentioned. The fact that, as I mentioned,  at least one male is included in the second part is acknowledged by a feature of Arabic grammar.

 

 

It is very hard to explain the point in English.

 

 

The translation I have given you is in relatively modern English. Anyway, here are a few other translations in old English, which effectively mean the same as what I have given:-

 

 

RODWELL

 

 

And abide still in your houses and go not in public decked as in the days of your former ignorance. But observe prayer and pay the impost. And obey God and the apostle. For God desireth to  put filthiness away from you, as his household and with cleansing yo cleanse you.

 

 

ARBERRY

 

 

Remain in your houses; and display not your finery, as did the pagans of old. And perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His Messenger. People of the House, God only desires to put away from you abomination and to cleanse you.

 

 

PICKTHALL

 

 

And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing. 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

N.J  Dawood's is an interpretation and not a translation , he says that in the introduction. Very terrible interpretation, flies in the face of what sunnis and shias agree about this verse. Then again Dawood is jewish so you cant expect him to be an expert on Quranic exegesis.

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