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In the Name of God بسم الله
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herenow477

O Christians And Jews !

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Hi Peace,

Quote from Post 139:
The Christian Trinity consists of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But Placid's Trinity is made up of God, the Word and the Holy Spirit. These THREE have always co-existed in heaven. However, the Holy Spirit indwelt Jesus after he was born. But that does not exactly make him part of the Trinity.

Response: --- Yes. The first is what the Orthodox Churches believe, and in worshiping the Trinity as the ‘godhead’ --- they take away from the Person and Worship of our one God.

And I agree with the verse in the Quran that we are discussing, 4:171, it says, “Jesus was just the Messenger” ---- it clearly states that Jesus was not one of the three, --- and since it says again, “Don’t say Three,” --- then trinity should have been a non-issue. --- Except for the doctrine, there would not have been the word ‘trinity,’ because it is not in the Bible.

Quote: --- Placid's “Three” is made up of God, the Word and the Holy Spirit. These THREE have always co-existed in heaven. However, the Holy Spirit indwelt Jesus after he was born.
--- (It was the Word and the Holy Spirit both that were with Jesus from His conception to His death in His flesh and blood body. And in His resurrection, Jesus had a ‘resurrected body,’ --- no longer of flesh and blood, but a Spiritual body.)

So there, you have the two general beliefs.

--- Because the Manifestations of God cannot be seen by men, They need to indwell a body through whom They can express themselves. This is why it says in John 1:14, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” --- So the Word from heaven ‘lived through’ the human body of Jesus. --- Jesus was human, the Word was of Divinity.

--- I agree with the Quran because to me it CORRECTS the faulty doctrine, however, to go back a little, I want you to notice that in post 120, I started by saying:
“To examine the verse about Jesus, --- I UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY.”

--- (Therefore, you can call it ‘my opinion’ if you like.)
As I said, --- This verse was not about Islam, but about Jesus, and the deeper things of the Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit, --- which are not easily understood. --- In fact, you said there is no concept of the Holy Spirit in Islam.
--- Following that, it is doubtful if any Muslim can understands what it means, so it needed to be explained from the Christian perspective.

 

 

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Hi eThErEaL,

Quote from Post 133:
I still don't see a real difference with what you are saying and what they are saying. The only difference is in semantics. I don't see anything wrong with what you believe in except for your claim that what you believe in is different from what Catholics believe in.

Response: --- Yes, the difference I was pointing out was between the humanity of Jesus, and the Divinity of the Word (Logos), --- but you have a good understanding of what is being taught, so that is fine.

My main interest in the discussion on this subject, which we have been over before, is that some refer to Christians as ‘polytheists’ from the thought that we have three gods.
You and Peace have both kind of understood the two general beliefs, so that is okay,

Thanks for your support.

 

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My main interest in the discussion on this subject, which we have been over before, is that some refer to Christians as ‘polytheists’ from the thought that we have three gods.

 

Hi Placid

 

Christians have been referred to in the Quran as People of the Book. And that is what we should stick to.

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Hi Peace,

People of the Book, --- that is right on, then we wouldn’t stray from what is written,

When we talk about the Holy Spirit we are talking about the Wisdom of God that is not known to Muslims, but this Wisdom, and discernment, is known to Spiritual Christians, because it says in 1 Corinthians 2:

13 “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Contrary to common consensus, I believe that Muhammad was given the Holy Spirit, as this is recorded in Surah 42:52 where it says, “And thus have We (God) inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command.”

--- And I believe with all the wisdom and good work of Ali, that he, too, was guided by the Holy Spirit of God. --- He is praised so greatly for his ‘person,’ and his writings, by others, --- but he was rejected by his own people as the successor to Muhammad. --- I believe God would have guided him in leadership, the same as He did Muhammad.

--- And in looking for other explanations from Muslims as you suggested, I have a commentary from Maulana, who was contemporary with Yusuf Ali and Mr Pickthall, and is mentioned in a footnote in the Pickthall translation.

--- I will add comments marked with ***, and meanings of words in (brackets).

Commentary from Maulana on 4:171: --- (A little long, but informative.)

Quote: People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, *211 and attribute to Allah nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His command *212 that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him (which led to Mary's conception). *213 So believe in Allah and in His Messengers, *214 and do not say: (Allah is a) trinity *215. Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. Allah is indeed just one God.

*Quote: 211. The expression 'People of the Book' refers here to the Christians and the word ghuluw denotes the tendency to exceed the limits of propriety in support of something. The fault of the Jews was that they had exceeded the limits of propriety in rejecting and opposing Jesus, whereas the crime of the Christians was that they had gone beyond the proper limits in their love for and devotion to Jesus.

*212. What is meant by sending the 'command' (the Word) to Mary is that God ordered Mary's womb to become impregnated without coming into contact with sperm. In the beginning the Christians were told that this was the secret of the fatherless birth of Jesus. Later on, under the misleading influence of Greek philosophy, they equated this with the 'Logos', which was subsequently interpreted as the Divine attribute of speech. The next step in this connection was the development of the notion that this Divine attribute entered into the womb of Mary and assumed the physical form of Jesus. Thus there developed among the Christians (Trinitarians) the false doctrine of the godhead of Jesus, and the false notion that out of His attributes God caused that of speech to appear in the form of Jesus.

*** (The Godhead of Jesus kind of speaks the same as the conclusion drawn from Al Kizan in Post 121 Quote: “That statement begs a conclusion that Jesus is one with three components.” --- *** This is not in harmony with Scripture.)

*Quote: 213. Here Jesus himself is called 'a spirit from God'. The same idea is also expressed elsewhere in the Qur'an: 'And We supported him with the spirit of holiness' (Surah al-Baqarah 2: 87). The import of both verses is that God endowed Jesus with a pure, impeccable soul. He was therefore an embodiment of truth, veracity, righteousness, and excellence. This is what the Christians had been told about Christ. But they (the Trinitarians) exceeded the proper limits of veneration for Jesus. The 'spirit from God' became the 'spirit of God', and the 'spirit of holiness' was interpreted to mean God's own Spirit which became incarnate in Jesus. Thus, along with God and Jesus, there developed the third person of God - the Holy Ghost.

It was this unjustified exaggeration which led the Christians (Catholics) to even greater error.

*** (This was the un-Scriptural conclusion that exalted Jesus in the trinity doctrine, and made it totally unexplainable.)

Quote: Ironically, however, Matthew contains the statement that: 'But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.' (The Bible, Authorized version,)

*214. The followers of Christ are urged to acknowledge God as the only God and to believe in the prophethood of all the Prophets, and that Jesus was one of them. This was the teaching of Christ and a basic truth which his followers ought to recognize. *215. They are urged to abandon the Trinitarian doctrine, regardless of the form in which it was found.

*** (Absolutely right, --- which is what we believe. --- And this is what the verse says, “Don’t say ‘Three,’ --- God is only one God.”)

Quote: The statements of Jesus on this question in the Gospels, however, are so categorical that no Christian can easily justify anything but the clear, straightforward doctrine that God is One and that there is no god but He. The Christians, therefore, find it impossible to deny that monotheism is the very core of true religion.

*** (Absolutely right, --- It is what Jesus taught, and what we continue to teach.)

Quote: But the original confusion that in Jesus the Word of God became flesh, that the Spirit of God was incarnate in him, led them (the Trinitarians) to believe in the godhead of Jesus and of the Holy Ghost along with that of God. This gratuitous commitment gave rise to an insoluble riddle: how to combine monotheism with the notion of trinity. For over eighteen centuries Christian theologians have grappled with this self-created riddle. The concept of the trinity is capable of such a myriad of interpretations that literally dozens of sects have arisen as a result of its ambiguity. And it has been largely responsible for the various Christian churches indulging in mutual excommunication. Moreover, it is logically impossible to maintain belief in trinity without impairing belief in One God. This problem has arisen because of the extravagance in which the Christians (Catholics) have indulged.

*** (This is the confusion that trinity brings, and is what Son concluded from Al Mizan: He commented, “I still think he's a little confused as he calls Jesus "The Word" he also calls Jesus "The Spirit". In other words he takes both manifestations to be Jesus when we have already established "The Word" to be the active part of God's command "Be" and it is. Problem with attributing The Word to Jesus is to say this active part of God's command started and finished with Jesus and we know that not to be the case.”)

Quote: The easiest course to get out of the morass is to give up the innovated belief in the godhead of Jesus and of the Holy Ghost, acknowledge God as the Only God, and accept Jesus as His Messenger rather than as God's partner in godhead. --- End of quote.

*** (That is the right conclusion, --- and though Maulana, did not understand the Holy Spirit --- he said “Acknowledge God as the Only God, and accept Jesus as His Messenger rather than as God's partner in godhead.)

Placid

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Hi eThErEaL,

Just for the fun of it. --- MANIFESTATIONS.

 

--- Let’s suppose that VAPOR came down from the clouds to the earth, and it accumulated in ponds and lakes, and it was called WATER.
--- And some landed in the cold climate and built up in piles and was called ICE.
--- And some ran down in the crevices of the rocks into tremendous heat, and spewed up in columns called STEAM.

As the earth aged, the temperature moderated and the columns of STEAM neutralized with the earth,
And the great piles of ICE melted in adjusting to the temperature.
And, --- as is the course of nature, VAPOR is being constantly drawn up into the clouds.

 

So, as time went on, WATER was being diminished as it was drawn up as VAPO R, --- until the earth was empty of WATER, --- and it was all returned to the clouds as VAPOR.
So the element of VAPOR really controlled the action on earth,

 

And though VAPOR was MANIFESTED in three, --- in the end, you couldn’t say ‘three’ --- VAPOR was only one.

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Hi eThErEaL,

Just for the fun of it. --- MANIFESTATIONS.

 

--- Let’s suppose that VAPOR came down from the clouds to the earth, and it accumulated in ponds and lakes, and it was called WATER.

--- And some landed in the cold climate and built up in piles and was called ICE.

--- And some ran down in the crevices of the rocks into tremendous heat, and spewed up in columns called STEAM.

As the earth aged, the temperature moderated and the columns of STEAM neutralized with the earth,

And the great piles of ICE melted in adjusting to the temperature.

And, --- as is the course of nature, VAPOR is being constantly drawn up into the clouds.

 

So, as time went on, WATER was being diminished as it was drawn up as VAPO R, --- until the earth was empty of WATER, --- and it was all returned to the clouds as VAPOR.

So the element of VAPOR really controlled the action on earth,

 

And though VAPOR was MANIFESTED in three, --- in the end, you couldn’t say ‘three’ --- VAPOR was only one.

Right.  The Godhead is beyond all three manifestations (Father, Word, and Spirit)

 

:)

 

The Godhead is the Essence which cannot even come into relationship with anything else.  As far as the Godhead is concerned, nothing else exists.  It is not even a "Creator" because The Creator necessarily comes into relationship with what it creates (i.e. the creation).

 

Miester Eckhart talks about the Godhead which is beyond the Trinity.  The Trinity is the mere image of God, but not God in Himself.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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Placid spreads the lies of confused nonsense

God is absolute

"Qul Huwallahu ahad"
"Allah Hussamed"
"Lem yelid we lemyulled"
"we lemyekunlehhu qufuwan ahad"

"Say he Allahs is ONE"
"Allah the absolute(there is none like Him)"
"He begets not , nor was he begotten" (ripping apart the ridiculoud christian doctrine of trinity or any other similarity)
"And there is nobody coequal to Him" (again strenghtening the argument that Gos is absolute in power and unique)

and one more verse of the Quran , which you will probabyl fail to understand due to your Christian deficient mentality

Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allah, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!  21:22

 

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Nobody is saying there is more than one God. Nor parts, nor partners.

 

We know that God created many angels, arc angels, and specific beings for His cause. There are many so you can't say three without leaving some out. God has 99 names, but each is a description of an attribute, or a manifestation. We don't have 99 Gods either.

 

What's the chance God created all these helpers with no plan to use them? God didn't create an audience to watch Him do all the work. Many times people have experienced one or another servant of God in one or another situation that God has sent to help them and those people considered these helpers as God. Many references in the OT have been confused as being God Almighty when it was actually a servant of God.

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This is an interesting ayat because just go ahead and spend the rest of your life trying to become a Jew.

 

 

Why so long, huh?

 

Becoming a Jew usually takes 1-3 years, because people are expected to learn Hebrew and seriously study Judaism. In theory, one can become a Jew immediately, if you are a women, and someone longer, if you are a man, because a man must get circumcised first and wait until it heals before immersing for conversion.

 

By the way, conversion to Russian Orthodox Christianity takes usually 6 months and requires serious study and a proof of religious devotion, and an average conversion to Russian Old Believers Church probably takes longer than an average conversion to Judaism. Not all Christian denominations are eager to convert everyone on the spot.

 

Where do you think Jews come today from? Largely, they are descendants of Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Celts, Persians, Slavs, Ethiopians, Khazars and whoever else opted for Judaism throughout the history. The Jewish tribes mentioned in the Quran were mostly likely descended of Arabic converts, because the region around the former Himyarite kingdom (today's Yemen) was a known center of active Jewish proselytism.

 

 

The Jews will never be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you follow their faith. Say, “Indeed guidance from Allah alone is the true guidance.” And if you were to follow their evil desires after the knowledge you have been given, you will find neither a guardian nor any helper to protect you from Allah. [Chapter 2:120]

 

And they say: “Become Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided.” Say, “Never, but we follow the faith of Ibraheem (Abraham), the upright one; he was not of polytheists.” [Chapter 2:135]

 

They have taken their priests and monks for Lords besides Allah. And (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. Though they were commanded to worship but the One God. There is no God but He. Exalted is He, far above what they associate with Him![Chapter 9:31]

And they (Jews and Christians) say: “None shall enter Paradise except they be Jews or Christians.” These are their own wishful fancies. Say (to them), “Bring forth your proof, if you are truthful.” [Chapter 2:111]

 

 

Such opinions were common in early medieval Judaism and are still around in somewhat different forms in some Jewish communities. Few people advocate active proselytism, unless someone really seriously wants to become Jewish, because Jews believe that the righteous of other religions, especially monotheistic ones, will be saved in their own way and don't need to become Jewish. But many Orthodox Jewish folks would still say that only faithful Jews and a few non-Jews who are aware of and adhere to basic tenets of Judaism are really "rightly guided".

 

However, such opinions are rejected by many well known rabbinical scholars and entire streams of Jewish thought who would wholeheartedly agree with this critique. Nowadays, the normative Orthodox Jewish opinion is that decent Muslims and Christians will indeed enter the Paradise, though whether they are "rightly guided" or whether their beliefs and practices are "pleasing" from the point view of Judaism, is still a matter of debate.

 

For example, Rabbi Jacob Emden, a leading 18th century scholar, explicitly wrote that yes, Muslims and Christians please God and their religion is Divinely guided. On the other hand, Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum, a leading 20th century scholar who completely rejected Zionism and wanted the Zionist state to be dismantled, had much more exclusive views about this subject. Basically, he held that only extremely devote Jews and very few non-Jews are "rightly guided". He must be admired for many good things, especially for being the one who led the Orthodox Jewish battle against Zionism, but he was into the dubious negative tendency that people on this forum may call "Takfiri" and tended to think that the world everywhere is full of heresy and disbelief. 99.9% of his "Takfir" was against other Jews though. Of course, both of these figures believed and taught that Jews must respect people who adhere to other religions, but these two examples show how theological opinions may vary within Judaism.

 

So, it seems that Muhammad addressed here an issue of internal Jewish polemics, which was a hot topic in the 7th century, when proselytism was popular among the Jews, and sided with the opinion that actually became more mainstream in later Judaism. Makes sense to me...

Edited by Yoel

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Hi Yoel

 

Long time no see!  Hope you have been well. 

 

The problem in picking up individual verses without reference to the historical context often tends to be misleading.  

Islam is therefore branded as anti-Semitic. The facts are quite different. 

If you read  the Quran carefully, there are heaps of reprimands for Muslims themselves, far more than there are good words. 

 

The seemingly unfriendly words for Jews and Christians can barely be understood without a full historical knowledge of the day and the context of the revelation of the individual verse.

 

Readers also tend to ignore any good the Quran may have to say about Jews and/or  Christians.  

 

It is important to understand that the historical context means that any good words or bad are not meant for people living in Poland or Russia or for those of a later generation. That may be so on occasion but by and large, the point of reference is the time and place of the revelation of the Quran.

 

The Quran is not an Ernest Hemingway or a Somerset Maugham novel. It requires back-breaking study. And the marvellous thing is that Shias and Sunnis still don't agree on the import of may verses or the accuracy of many historical events, which form its background. 

 

Islamic history, which forms the contextual background for the Quran, is a shambles.  How can you possibly take anyone's words for what exactly a verse means?  Needless to say, some verses are of course, self-explanatory, but many are not.

 

Anyway, just a few contrarian verses:-

 

[2:62] Indeed!  Believers (in Islam), Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does right - surely their reward is with their Lord,  no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve.

 

[3:113-115]

 

[3:113] They are not all alike. Among the Prople of the Book (Jews and Christians), there are some  upright ones. They recite the verses of God at night fully prostrating themselves to Him.

 

[3:114]  They believe in God and the Last Day. They enjoin good and forbid evil.  These people are among the righteous.

 

[3:115] They will not be denied the rewards of the good that they do. Allah is well aware of those who are conscious of their duty to their Lord. 

 

[3:199] Indeed! Among  the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), there are some who believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto you and that which was revealed unto them, humbling themselves before Allah. They purchase not a trifling gain at the price of the revelations of Allah. Verily their reward is with their Lord.

 

Indeed! Allah is swift to take account.

 

[32:23-24] We heretofore gave the Book of the law to Moses. Have thou no doubt as to our meeting with him. And we appointed it as guidance for the children of Israel.

Edited by baqar

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Hi Baqar,

 

 

Hi Yoel

 

Long time no see!  Hope you have been well. 

 

The problem in picking up individual verses without reference to the historical context often tends to be misleading.  

Islam is therefore branded as anti-Semitic. The facts are quite different. 

If you read  the Quran carefully, there are heaps of reprimands for Muslims themselves, far more than there are good words. 

 

I don't brand Islam as anti-Semitic. Otherwise I wouldn't be on this site.

 

As I said, it sounds to me that Muhammad criticized some particular opinions that were common in Judaism in his time. Many mainstream Jewish scholars agree with this critique. An equivalent of these quotations could easily be found in rabbinical literature. So there is nothing against Jews or Judaism here.

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Hi Yoel

 

I was not referring to you. I was talking about people the world over, particularly in the West.

 

The charge of anti-Semitism is made so often and so unfairly that it is simply sickening.

 

What people forget is that Islam

 

·        has lots of harsh words for Muslims as well and

 

·        there are also many friendly words for other  'believers', such as Jews and Christians.

 

That is why I quoted those verses.

 

Cheers 

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The same slanderous attitude can be seen in the coinage of the word 'Islamist' by the media.

 

Every damn terrorist with a Muslim affiliation is referred to by the media as an Islamist. How on earth can one refer to al-Shabab (Somalia), Boko Haram (Nigeria), Al-Qaida (Agfghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Syria) or the Taliban as Islamists?

 

If they are Islamist, then Hitler and Mussolini must have been Jesuits.  These terrorists may be Muslims but they are certainly not Islamist. Whatever the case, they should be referred to as terrorist rather than Islamists or even Muslims. What does religion have to do with their terrorism? They might claim that they want to establish an 'Islamic' state. That still does not make them Islamist or their goals Islamic.

 

The idea is to link the fair name of Islam with terrorism.   

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