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herenow477

O Christians And Jews !

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Hi Baqar,

You are like one who reads the last chapter of a book and thinks he know the whole story. --- It is easy for me to explain exactly what I mean, and I will start at the beginning.

Genesis 1:1 ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.’

! In the beginning GOD (the Father of all) created the heavens and the earth

2 The Spirit of God (the Spirit of Life) brought life to the sea,

--- (And God created Adam, “And breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life,” the same Spirit of Life.)

3 Then God said, ‘Let there “Be” (light)--- and there was (light).’

When God determines a thing He only says to it, “Be” and it is.

So here are the three in heaven, God (the Father) --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) --- and the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit.)

1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

Isn’t it interesting that in the verse 4:171, it mentions the same three, --- God, --- the Word, --- and the ‘Spirit from God,’(the Holy Spirit), --- and 'it' (the verse) says,

DON’T SAY THREE, GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.

So you don’t separate them as though there are THREE as the trinity doctrine does, which is what causes the confusion. --- But God has always been Manifested by these Three, from Genesis to the Quran where it says in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

--- (Doesn’t that look like a capital ‘W’ on Word, which means “Be” - and he was.

And the Holy Spirit is mentioned with Jesus in Surah 2:

87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. --- Also, Surahs 2:253, and 5:110.

Study this through before you try to make your case, --- I can add more, if you want more evidence for what I wrote.

Placid

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Hi Baqar,

You are like one who reads the last chapter of a book and thinks he know the whole story. --- It is easy for me to explain exactly what I mean, and I will start at the beginning.

Genesis 1:1 ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.’

! In the beginning GOD (the Father of all) created the heavens and the earth

2 The Spirit of God (the Spirit of Life) brought life to the sea,

--- (And God created Adam, “And breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life,” the same Spirit of Life.)

3 Then God said, ‘Let there “Be” (light)--- and there was (light).’

When God determines a thing He only says to it, “Be” and it is.

So here are the three in heaven, God (the Father) --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) --- and the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit.)

1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

Isn’t it interesting that in the verse 4:171, it mentions the same three, --- God, --- the Word, --- and the ‘Spirit from God,’(the Holy Spirit), --- and 'it' (the verse) says,

DON’T SAY THREE, GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.

So you don’t separate them as though there are THREE as the trinity doctrine does, which is what causes the confusion. --- But God has always been Manifested by these Three, from Genesis to the Quran where it says in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

--- (Doesn’t that look like a capital ‘W’ on Word, which means “Be” - and he was.

And the Holy Spirit is mentioned with Jesus in Surah 2:

87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. --- Also, Surahs 2:253, and 5:110.

Study this through before you try to make your case, --- I can add more, if you want more evidence for what I wrote.

Placid

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

O people of the Scripture (christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

What nonsense are you talking about placid? God stipulated that he is only ONE

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

"He begets not, nor was He begotten;

"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

So what nonsense are you going on about trying to prove that Quran is pushing forward trinity? Are you seriously that illiterate? 

 

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She occupies a very high place among God'as chosen elite. I never said that she didn't.

 

In fact, except for Catholics, no Christian gives her a very high place like Islam does.

Eastern Orthodox are the same as Catholics. They venerate the Blessed Virgin equally to us.

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Hi Baqar,

Isn’t it interesting that in the verse 4:171, it mentions the same three, --- God, --- the Word, --- and the ‘Spirit from God,’(the Holy Spirit), --- and 'it' (the verse) says, DON’T SAY THREE, GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.

 

Hi Placid

 

It does not mention the word or the holy spirit as part of any single entity or trinity.

 

On the contrary, it is saying, as 

 

Yusuf Ali puts it    Say not TRINITY - desist.

 

Rodwell says Say not THREE (there is a Trinity) - Forbear.

 

In other words, both are saying DO NOT SAY THAT THERE IS A TRINITY   -  FORBEAR.

 

Sorry, my friend ! 

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Eastern Orthodox are the same as Catholics. They venerate the Blessed Virgin equally to us.

 

Salaam, 

 

Would you mind going into greater detail? What exactly does this entail? 

 

 

Placid

 

 

Salaam Placid,

 

Just a side note: In Shi'i Theology, the Holy Spirit is distinguished from the Angel's. According to the Imam's, it is a creation greater than the Angel's, including JIbreel (Gabriel).

 

The Angel of the Lord mentioned throughout the Old Testament is identified as Gabriel [a] in the Book of Daniel. The Holy Spirit is a separate entity and it accompanies and supports the prophets and hujja (proof of God) such an Imam, and allows God's representatives and guides to perform actions we wouldn't normally be able to perform, with God's permission of course. Sunni's have adopted the view that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, however, this was not the position of the Imams [as] themselves, and this is evident in Shi'i Hadith literature. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Hi Placid  You want us to study  your thesis? There is nothing in your theseis of any substance.  The argument that  [4:171] testifies to a Trinity of any sort cannot be accepted. SImply because [4:171] says clearly that there is no such thing as a Trinity.

 

Please don't take offence. But to say that you understand the Quran better than 1 billion Muslims and more importantly better than tens of thousands of Muslim scholars is a bit over the top.  A fair bit, actually! 

 

You shoud also try to understand that neither or Holy Prophet nor any of our Imams has as much as ever hinted in the direction of any Trinity.

 

 

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Hi Baqar,You are like one who reads the last chapter of a book and thinks he know the whole story. --- It is easy for me to explain exactly what I mean, and I will start at the beginning.Genesis 1:1 ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.’! In the beginning GOD (the Father of all) created the heavens and the earth2 The Spirit of God (the Spirit of Life) brought life to the sea,--- (And God created Adam, “And breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life,” the same Spirit of Life.)3 Then God said, ‘Let there “Be” (light)--- and there was (light).’When God determines a thing He only says to it, “Be” and it is.So here are the three in heaven, God (the Father) --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) --- and the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit.)1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”Isn’t it interesting that in the verse 4:171, it mentions the same three, --- God, --- the Word, --- and the ‘Spirit from God,’(the Holy Spirit), --- and 'it' (the verse) says,DON’T SAY THREE, GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.So you don’t separate them as though there are THREE as the trinity doctrine does, which is what causes the confusion. --- But God has always been Manifested by these Three, from Genesis to the Quran where it says in Surah 3:45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."--- (Doesn’t that look like a capital ‘W’ on Word, which means “Be” - and he was.And the Holy Spirit is mentioned with Jesus in Surah 2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. --- Also, Surahs 2:253, and 5:110.Study this through before you try to make your case, --- I can add more, if you want more evidence for what I wrote.Placid

I completely agree with you Placid! It is sad a number of Muslims don't understand what you are explaining to them even though the truth is staring right in their face.

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Placid doesn't believe the Trinity has any textual basis in the Bible. 

 

Yes, I am fully aware oif that.

 

And at the same time, he believes in a different form of Trinity, comprising of

  • God
  • The Word  and
  • The Holy Spirit

And he has been arguing that verse [4:171] supports his view.

 

Please read post #63 carefully.

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I completely agree with you Placid! It is sad a number of Muslims don't understand what you are explaining to them even though the truth is staring right in their face.

 

You have no idea what yiu are talking about.

 

Placid doesn't believe the Trinity has any textual basis in the Bible. 

 

Yes  he does.

 

The Christian Trinity consist of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

Placid's Trinity consist of God, the Word and the Holy Spirit.

 

That is the only difference.

 

Please read all relevant posts, in particular 63, 65 and 71.   

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 It is sad a number of Muslims don't understand what you are explaining to them even though the truth is staring right in their face.

 

Actually, you are the one who deson't understand what Placid is saying.

 

He is saying that verse [4:171] of the Qiuran supports the view that the Trinity consists of God, Word and Holy  Spirit, which is slightly different from the Christian Trinity.

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Actually, you are the one who deson't understand what Placid is saying.

He is saying that verse [4:171] of the Qiuran supports the view that the Trinity consists of God, Word and Holy Spirit, which is slightly different from the Christian Trinity.

Actually, I did read what he said in the post. And I really don't object to it!

It is true that there is

God (Father), the Word, and the Spirit.

To me this is the real Trinity and honestly I feel that Placid is just trying to make you all understand the real version of the Trinity since Muslims are thrown off my the word "Son" and "Trinity". To me the Son is the Word.

Edited by eThErEaL

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Would you mind going into greater detail? What exactly does this entail? 

 

 

Mary, properly revered as the Blessed Virgin Mary, has a special place for us Catholics (and Orthodox).

Careful though, when we say Venerate, we do not mean Worship. There is a big difference.

We only Worship God, that's it.

Protestants (and some ignorant Muslims) assert we worship Mary (a-la God) and Idols/Icons/Statues etc.

 

There are two types of Reverence in Christian Theology (or rather Catholic and Eastern Orthodox).

Latria and Dulia.

 

We Worship GOD Alone (Latria), however, we respect and honour/venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (Dulia).

This is not merely splitting hairs as some Protestants tell me.

There is a big difference. Latria is a worship that can only be offered to God, while Dulia is a reverence given to Earthly creatures, so to speak.

 

I have seen Icons, or rather representations, of Imam Ali in some Shia homes, are Shia worshipping Imam Ali? no ofcourse not.

 

The Blessed Virgin Mary has a special place in our hearts because she is:

1 - Sinless / Immaculate

2 - Ever Blessed Virgin who bore Jesus Christ

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So the truth, according to you, is that verse [4:171] speaks about a Trinity.

 

Right  ?

I believe what he said was right. We shouldn't say three because those three are simply different aspects of One reality, not three separate entities.

Mary, properly revered as the Blessed Virgin Mary, has a special place for us Catholics (and Orthodox).

Careful though, when we say Venerate, we do not mean Worship. There is a big difference.

We only Worship God, that's it.

Protestants (and some ignorant Muslims) assert we worship Mary (a-la God) and Idols/Icons/Statues etc.

 

There are two types of Reverence in Christian Theology (or rather Catholic and Eastern Orthodox).

Latria and Dulia.

 

We Worship GOD Alone (Latria), however, we respect and honour/venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (Dulia).

This is not merely splitting hairs as some Protestants tell me.

There is a big difference. Latria is a worship that can only be offered to God, while Dulia is a reverence given to Earthly creatures, so to speak.

 

I have seen Icons, or rather representations, of Imam Ali in some Shia homes, are Shia worshipping Imam Ali? no ofcourse not.

 

The Blessed Virgin Mary has a special place in our hearts because she is:

1 - Sinless / Immaculate

2 - Ever Blessed Virgin who bore Jesus Christ

Firstly, May God bless you! (Truly from the bottom of my heart).

Shias should be the first to understand all this... You would think yes? :)

I agree with what you said. We venerate Muhammad and His family. We also Venerate Mary. Shias emphasize the veneration of Fatima and give the same status to Fatima as the Quran gives to Mary.

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Mary, properly revered as the Blessed Virgin Mary, has a special place for us Catholics (and Orthodox).

Careful though, when we say Venerate, we do not mean Worship. There is a big difference.

We only Worship God, that's it.

Protestants (and some ignorant Muslims) assert we worship Mary (a-la God) and Idols/Icons/Statues etc.

 

There are two types of Reverence in Christian Theology (or rather Catholic and Eastern Orthodox).

Latria and Dulia.

 

We Worship GOD Alone (Latria), however, we respect and honour/venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (Dulia).

This is not merely splitting hairs as some Protestants tell me.

There is a big difference. Latria is a worship that can only be offered to God, while Dulia is a reverence given to Earthly creatures, so to speak.

 

I have seen Icons, or rather representations, of Imam Ali in some Shia homes, are Shia worshipping Imam Ali? no ofcourse not.

 

The Blessed Virgin Mary has a special place in our hearts because she is:

1 - Sinless / Immaculate

2 - Ever Blessed Virgin who bore Jesus Christ

 

 

Thank you for clarifying. 

 

Catholic's are often criticised for making supplications or praying to entities other than God. If I have read your post correctly, all forms of worship is to be given exclusively to God. Or, is supplication and prayer not exclusive to Him, but can be offered to those (spiritually) close to Him? 

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Thank you for clarifying. Catholic's are often criticised for making supplications or praying to entities other than God. If I have read your post correctly, all forms of worship is to be given exclusively to God. Or, is supplication and prayer not exclusive to Him, but can be offered to those (spiritually) close to Him?

In the Islamic Terminology there are two concepts which are closely related: 1) Tawassul and 2) Istighatha.

The first is to ask God for help through the intercession of such and such a person. The second is to ask such and such a person for help directly. Both of these have their place and are acceptable in Islam. Those who reject the second one are Wahhabis (including those influenced by them, like many of us on this forum) and followers of Ibn Taymiyya. :D

Edited by eThErEaL

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It is true that there is  God (Father), the Word, and the Spirit.

 

There is no such thing as Giod (Father) in Islam.

 

And there is absolutely no such tning as the Trinity in Islam.

 

The Word is not an entity in Islam. It is just a title given to Jesus, because he was born with God's word. SImilar to the title of 'Khaleel' for Hazrat Ibrahim and Kaleem for Hazrat Musa.

 

The Word is not an entity.

 

The Holy Spirit in the sense understood  by Christians simply does not exist in Islam.

Well actually Jesus  (as) is the Word made flesh in Christian theology, so Placid does advocate the trinity.

 

Yes he does.

But the concept of the Trinity as understood in Christianity or by Placid simply does not exist in Islam.

Edited by PeaceLoving

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Thank you for clarifying. 

 

Catholic's are often criticised for making supplications or praying to entities other than God. If I have read your post correctly, all forms of worship is to be given exclusively to God. Or, is supplication and prayer not exclusive to Him, but can be offered to those (spiritually) close to Him? 

 

I assume you are referring to Saints here in Christianity.

Yes we pray to Saints.

But it is prayer, not Worship.

I will give you a secular example.

If I have a sick grandmother and I ask a close friend to pray for her, am I worshiping my friend as a God? No ofcourse not, I am simply asking my friend to ask/pray for me.

Likewise when Catholics or Orthodox or (many Protestant sects who have Saints) 'pray' to a Saint, they are simply asking/praying for a Saint to ask/pray for them, just as you would ask a friend or family member to pray for you on Earth.

By no means is a Catholic worshiping (Latria) a Saint.

 

edit: what I just said is similar to what ethereal just commented on above.

I believe what he said was right. We shouldn't say three because those three are simply different aspects of One reality, not three separate entities.

Firstly, May God bless you! (Truly from the bottom of my heart).

Shias should be the first to understand all this... You would think yes? :)

I agree with what you said. We venerate Muhammad and His family. We also Venerate Mary. Shias emphasize the veneration of Fatima and give the same status to Fatima as the Quran gives to Mary.

 

in 1993 I was at Harissa, a place in Lebanon that is famous called 'Saydat Harissa', a Church for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It was my first trip there as there was war and had never been there.

Anyway there is a spiral sandstone staircase leading up to the statue. I was with my father.

I saw women dressed in Islamic Garb (long robes and veil (but not chador), a big contingent there.

I asked my father, who are they? They are Shia women son, he said lol.

so that was my first interest in shia islam then wondering why they were there hahaha.

Edited by shreek

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There is no such thing as Giod (Father) in Islam.

And there is absolutely no such tning as the Trinity in Islam.

The Word is not an entity in Islam. It is just a title given to Jesus, because he was born with God's word. SImi;ar to the title of 'Khaleel' for Hazrat Ibrahim and Kaleem for Hazrat Musa.

The Word is not an entity.

The Holy Spirit in the sense understood by Christians simply does not exist in Islam.

The Word is what we Muslims refer to as the Haqiqa Muhammadiyya (Also, Noor of Muhammad). This Nur or "Light of Muhammad", is that through which the entire creation was made (including all the heavens and the angels). This Light is like the intermediary between God and the creation. This Light is like a womb (Rahm) in which is the entire creation (it is therefore "Rahmatul lil-aalameen", "a Mercy to everything/to all worlds"). We Muslims identity Muhammad and the Quran itself with this Light (which is why we say "Noor of Muhammad", or which is why we say that the "Word of God was made into the Quran!") . Christians however identify Jesus with this Light (which is why they say the "Word was made flesh"). Really speaking, whether you are a Christian or a Muslim, we all believe in this one Light which is the Word, which is God-Manifest. It is really unfortunate that some of us Muslims are now forgetting the true and saving function of this Light! It is unfortunate the that we are not able to notice this same Light in other religions.

This Light or Word is nothing but the Manifestation of God. So there is God in Himself, and then there is God-Manifest. And the relationship between the two (the love which exists between the two) is the Spirit.

Edited by eThErEaL

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I assume you are referring to Saints here in Christianity.

Yes we pray to Saints.

But it is prayer, not Worship.

I will give you a secular example.

If I have a sick grandmother and I ask a close friend to pray for her, am I worshiping my friend as a God? No ofcourse not, I am simply asking my friend to ask/pray for me.

Likewise when Catholics or Orthodox or (many Protestant sects who have Saints) 'pray' to a Saint, they are simply asking/praying for a Saint to ask/pray for them, just as you would ask a friend or family member to pray for you on Earth.

By no means is a Catholic worshiping (Latria) a Saint.

 

edit: what I just said is similar to what ethereal just commented on above.

 

Yes, I've heard this example, numerous times. Its the same example many Shi'is use to justify calling on other than God and making supplications to others besides Him. I'm just not convinced by it. My only issue is that it is textually unsound (not sure about Biblically, but there is no explicit textual evidence for this from the Qur'an or the Imam's [a] themselves). If someone has something that says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it. 

 

In the Islamic Terminology there are two concepts which are closely related: 1) Tawassul and 2) Istighatha.

The first is to ask God for help through the intercession of such and such a person. The second is to ask such and such a person for help directly. Both of these have their place and are acceptable in Islam. Those who reject the second one are Wahhabis (including those influenced by them, like many of us on this forum) and followers of Ibn Taymiyya. :D

 

If that was a reference to me than I can assure you Señor Ibn Taymiyya has had zero influence on me, personally. If you have anything (textual) supporting this, then please present it. 

 

There is a significant difference between both concepts, as I'm sure you'll agree. 

 

My intention was not to turn this thread into a Istigatha debate. :)

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Yes, I've heard this example, numerous times. Its the same example many Shi'is use to justify calling on other than God and making supplications to others besides Him. I'm just not convinced by it. My only issue is that it is textually unsound (not sure about Biblically, but there is no explicit textual evidence for this from the Qur'an or the Imam's [a] themselves). If someone has something that says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

If that was a reference to me than I can assure you Señor Ibn Taymiyya has had zero influence on me, personally. If you have anything (textual) supporting this, then please present it.

There is a significant difference between both concepts, as I'm sure you'll agree.

My intention was not to turn this thread into a Istigatha debate. :)

The Wahhabi influence is everywhere now. :).

When we go to the shrines of The Ahlul Bayt, don't we ask the Imams for our legitimate wishes? Don't we ask the Imams for things right now? Or do you only do Tawassul? We do everything. And there is nothing wrong with it. Unless again we are indirectly influenced by Wahabi doctrines.

Edited by eThErEaL

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The Word is what we Muslims refer to as the Haqiqa Muhammadiyya (Also, Noor of Muhammad). This Nur or "Light of Muhammad", is that through which the entire creation was made (including all the heavens and the angels). 

 

That is not their understanding of the Word.  And whtever it means, it is not part of a Trinity in Islam.

 

There is absolutelyt no Trinity in Islam, say what anyone may.

 

And certainly not the Trinity that Placid was pushing.

Edited by PeaceLoving

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The Word is what we Muslims refer to as the Haqiqa Muhammadiyya (Also, Noor of Muhammad). This Nur or "Light of Muhammad", is that through which the entire creation was made (including all the heavens and the angels). 

 

Tell that to Placid.

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As I said, I'm not interested in starting another debate on this issue. My opinion is: Tawassul is supported textually whilst Istagatha is not. I will hold onto this view until proven otherwise. It doesn't matter to me what people do at shrines or anywhere. For something to be considered part of Islam, it should at least have some support from our sources. I'm willing to be proven 'wrong' or shown that I am mistaken in this instance. I have no issues with that. 

 

And again, I am not influenced by 'Wahabi doctrines'. :)

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The Word is what we Muslims refer to as the Haqiqa Muhammadiyya (Also, Noor of Muhammad). This Nur or "Light of Muhammad", is that through which the entire creation was made (including all the heavens and the angels). This Light is like the intermediary between God and the creation. This Light is like a womb (Rahm) in which is the entire creation (it is therefore "Rahmatul lil-aalameen", "a Mercy to everything/to all worlds"). We Muslims identity Muhammad and the Quran itself with this Light (which is why we say "Noor of Muhammad", or which is why we say that the "Word of God was made into the Quran!") . Christians however identify Jesus with this Light (which is why they say the "Word was made flesh"). Really speaking, whether you are a Christian or a Muslim, we all believe in this one Light which is the Word, which is God-Manifest. It is really unfortunate that some of us Muslims are now forgetting the true and saving function of this Light! It is unfortunate the that we are not able to notice this same Light in other religions.  This Light or Word is nothing but the Manifestation of God. So there is God in Himself, and then there is God-Manifest. And the relationship between the two (the love which exists between the two) is the Spirit.

 

Whatever the Word means, it is not part of a Trinity and as others have also said, there is no Trinity in Islam. A satisfactory explanation for Placid's conclusions on [4:171] has as yet not been forthcoming. People don't seem to understand that quoting the Genesis or the gospels does not amount to proof for Muslims, at least for most of us.  

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That is not their understanding of the Word. And whtever it means, it is not part of a Trinity in Islam.

There is absolutelyt no Trinity in Islam, say what anyone may.

And certainly not the Trinity that Placid was pushing.

I do understand Trinity is not an Islamic Doctrine. I never said it was. Islam came with its own doctrine which emphasizes Oneness; the Ineffable Essence. Doctrines are inherently limited and exclusive. The Islamic Doctrine, in emphasizing Oneness and the Essence, necessarily excludes a doctrine which emphasizes the Multiplicity in Manifestation. These two doctrines are meant to speak to two different spiritual temperaments. A doctrine is never an Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is beyond any formal doctrine.

Whatever the Word means, it is not part of a Trinity and as others have also said, there is no Trinity in Islam. A satisfactory explanation for Placid's conclusions on [4:171] has as yet not been forthcoming. People don't seem to understand that quoting the Genesis or the gospels does not amount to proof for Muslims, at least for most of us.

Tell that to Placid.

That is not their understanding of the Word. And whtever it means, it is not part of a Trinity in Islam.

There is absolutelyt no Trinity in Islam, say what anyone may.

And certainly not the Trinity that Placid was pushing.

I do understand Trinity is not an Islamic Doctrine. I never said it was. Islam came with its own doctrine which emphasizes Oneness; the Ineffable Essence. Doctrines are inherently limited and exclusive. The Islamic Doctrine, in emphasizing Oneness and the Essence, necessarily excludes a doctrine which emphasizes the Multiplicity in Manifestation. These two doctrines are meant to speak to two different spiritual temperaments. A doctrine is never an Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is beyond any formal doctrine.

As I said, I'm not interested in starting another debate on this issue. My opinion is: Tawassul is supported textually whilst Istagatha is not. I will hold onto this view until proven otherwise. It doesn't matter to me what people do at shrines or anywhere. For something to be considered part of Islam, it should at least have some support from our sources. I'm willing to be proven 'wrong' or shown that I am mistaken in this instance. I have no issues with that. 

 

And again, I am not influenced by 'Wahabi doctrines'. :)

In our Prayers and Ziyarat we say, "asalamu Alyka ayyuhannabiy..."

Peace be upon You (not him). We are addressing the Prophet (S) directly as if he (S) hears each one of us and is present right in front of us. (And indeed he is).

When God says "call upon Allah, or Rahman, whichever name you call upon, to Him belong the most beautiful names." Well, the Imams have said: "We are the names of Allah."

So when we call upon God's names or we call upon the Imams, it is one and the same. :)

Edited by eThErEaL

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are you going on about trying to prove that Quran is pushing forward trinity? 

 

Brother

 

Yes,that is what he was trying.

 

This discussion began with  the following post of my dear friend Placid's.

 

So what it says to Trinitarians is that Jesus was not one of the Three in heaven.

And what it says to Muslims is that there were, and are, THREE IN HEAVEN.

 

The reference is to verse [4:171] of the Quran.

 

And regardless what anyone might say, I continue to maintain that there is no support or justification in the Quran for the second line in the above. 

 

Placid has not been able to explain himself. All he had done is to quote the Genesis, the gospels and to force an interpretation of [4:171] which is not true.

 

None of that is relevant.

 

Some people think his arguments were reasonable but I don't think so.

 

Because in Islam, there is no such thing as THREE IN HEAVEN.

 

In any case, I am interested  only  in Placid's explanation hopefully without reference to the Genesis or the gospels.. 

Edited by baqar

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Whatever the Word means, it is not part of a Trinity and as others have also said, there is no Trinity in Islam. A satisfactory explanation for Placid's conclusions on [4:171] has as yet not been forthcoming. People don't seem to understand that quoting the Genesis or the gospels does not amount to proof for Muslims, at least for most of us.  

 

God said: Be! And the son of Mary [a] was. 

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God said: Be! And the son of Mary [a] was. 

 

From a Christian perspective that statment says God impregnated The Blessed Virgin.

please explain the above.

Edited by shreek

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Wow,

Ali said in Post 75:

Sunni's have adopted the view that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, however, this was not the position of the Imams [as] themselves,

** Peace said in Post 76:

The argument that [4:171] testifies to a Trinity of any sort cannot be accepted. SImply because [4:171] says clearly that there is no such thing as a Trinity.

** Ali said in Post 78:

Placid doesn't believe the Trinity has any textual basis in the Bible

** eThErEaL said in Post 79:

I completely agree with you Placid! It is sad a number of Muslims don't understand what you are explaining to them even though the truth is staring right in their face.

** eThErEaL said in Post 92:

Really speaking, whether you are a Christian or a Muslim, we all believe in this one Light which is the Word, which is God-Manifest. It is really unfortunate that some of us Muslims are now forgetting the true and saving function of this Light! It is unfortunate that we are not able to notice this same Light in other religions.

This Light or Word is nothing but the Manifestation of God. So there is God in Himself, and then there is God-Manifest. And the relationship between the two (the love which exists between the two) is the Spirit.

** ILove said in Post 98:

Whatever the Word means, it is not part of a Trinity and as others have also said, there is no Trinity in Islam. A satisfactory explanation for Placid's conclusions on [4:171] has as yet not been forthcoming. People don't seem to understand that quoting the Genesis or the gospels does not amount to proof for Muslims, at least for most of us.

** eThErEaL said in Post 99:

The Islamic Doctrine, in emphasizing Oneness and the Essence, necessarily excludes a doctrine which emphasizes the Multiplicity in Manifestation. These two doctrines are meant to speak to two different spiritual temperaments. A doctrine is never an Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is beyond any formal doctrine.

** Baqar said in Post 100:

Because in Islam, there is no such thing as THREE IN HEAVEN.

In any case, I am interested only in Placid's explanation hopefully without reference to the Genesis or the gospels..

** Ali said in Post 101:

God said: Be! And the son of Mary [a] was.

Response: --- Thanks for expressing your thoughts, and I will go back to Genesis and Exodus to help you understand really what eThErEaL was saying about the Manifestation of the Word as Light. --- First in Exodus 20:

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

In the first two Commandments, God says there can be ‘no idols or images to represent Him.’ --- And the reason is that God is Greater, and above anything we can IMAGINE --- so there can be nothing to represent God. --- Someone said that “God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.”

If Almighty God was larger than this one Universe that we are familiar with, and has no shape, nor form, how can we understand Him?

Quote from Post 99:--- in emphasizing Oneness and the Essence, necessarily excludes a doctrine which emphasizes the Multiplicity in Manifestation.

So we have ONE GOD, who is above and beyond any understanding we have of Him. --- But to relate to His creation that He brought into being on this little planet Earth, He has Manifested Himself in many ways, --- and the Three mentioned in Genesis 1:1-3 are the Manifestations of, --- God (as the Father of all), --- the Holy Spirit (as the Spirit of Life), --- And the Word (Logos, the creative power of God, and the symbol of Light).

So, very simply, --- There is one ALMIGHTY GOD, --- and these three MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD, --- which have been ‘from the beginning.’

--- (I will explain later the relationship to 4:171.)

The word trinity is not in the Bible, but is mentioned in this verse in the Quran, so we need to see why it is there, do we not?

Placid

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To continue:

If Almighty God was larger than this one Universe that we are familiar with, and has no shape, nor form, how can we understand Him?

We have ONE GOD, who is above and beyond any understanding we have of Him. --- But to relate to His creation that He brought into being on this little planet Earth, He has Manifested Himself in many ways, --- and the Three mentioned in Genesis 1:1-3 are the Manifestations of, --- God (as the Father of all), --- the Holy Spirit (as the Spirit of Life), --- And the Word (Logos, the creative power of God, and the symbol of Light).

So, very simply, --- There is one ALMIGHTY GOD, --- and these three MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD, --- which have been ‘from the beginning.’

To show this again we go to Genesis, where the earth was created, and then filled with birds, animals and fish, --- vegetation, etc. and then this in Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”

You may not understand this, but the word ‘God’ used here is Elohim, which is a plural name for God. --- And it says, “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.”

--- The reason that can’t be ALMIGHTY GOD speaking is because ALMIGHTY GOD is SINGULAR, and He has no IMAGE to make anything like.

So this Elohim has to be these three Manifestations of God, --- and it has to be the Father, speaking to the Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit, and saying, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.” --- (Notice how the capitalization started here and carries right through the Quran for God, the Word [when it means “Be” and he is,] --- and the Holy Spirit?)

--- They are all mentioned in the Quran, but not as a trinity, --- nor were they ever a trinity.

--- While these three are all invisible in our creation, they would be seen by all of the angels, and there is mention even in the Quran of angels being there before Adam was created.

We have to assume that there was a standard size set for a created image, like the angels, --- So God, the Father said, “Let Us make man. --- This is the instruction for the Word and the Holy Spirit to be involved in what the Father desired.

--- And it goes on to say in Genesis 2:

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

--- So it was the Fathers job to design what He wanted, --- and the Word, the creative power of God would bring it into being from the dust of the ground, --- and then God ‘Breathed into his (Adam’s) nostrils, the “Breath of Life,” the Holy Spirit, --- and man (Adam) became a living being.

Notice here that while all things were created ‘through the Word, (Logos),’ --- this is no longer creating something from nothing, --- but using the elements that were already there. --- And the Quran also says that Adam was created from dust, does it not?

Then we have the Three Manifestations of ALMIGHTY GOD working together in harmony, as it says in 1 John 5:

7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”

Notice, it doesn’t say, --- “and these three are God.”

Nor does it say, --- And these three are gods,” --- as is wrongly misunderstood by many, as a result of the doctrine.

Nor does it say, --- “These three are co-equal” which is what the doctrine of trinity says.

Nor does it say, “The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.” --- Jesus was born on earth so couldn’t have been there in the beginning.

--- And while some suggest Jesus and the Word are the same, --- Here is where the problem lies, --- that nobody seems to accept, though it is written plainly in the Quran as well as the Gospel, --- that Jesus was born in a human body on earth, and the Word ‘FROM GOD,’ came down to indwell the body that God brought into being on earth. --- They were separate --- one from earth, and one from heaven.

--- Try to read Surah 3:45 again with some understanding of this.

--- (I will get to 4:171 eventually, too busy now.)

Placid

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