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In the Name of God بسم الله
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herenow477

O Christians And Jews !

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Hello,

 

 

 

This is the sickness of EVERY Christian i have ever spoken with

When they bring up the Quran or when the Quran is brought up

"SUDDENLY!" every Christian becomes an expert on the Quran and Quran /Arabic literature, 
 

 

Wow, the sickness of EVERY Christian.  You are unbelievably rude.  If you will notice, others are trying to give you hints that you are doing a disservice to your religion.  But, instead of listening, you just ignore them.  

 

First, no one claimed to be an expert.  Second, Christians are encouraged to read and think independently.  In Protestant worship services everyone is encouraged to bring their Bibles.  They are encouraged to read and not blindly except what the Pastor is saying.  As I said, Christians are encouraged to think.  But, you interpret this as "every Christian becomes an expert....."

 

 

 

Hi David

 

You might find it funny that the Quran addresses half the verse to one set of people and the other half to another.

 

 

 

No, I do not find it funny.  From your post and baqar's I now realize the differences in translations stem from a Shia / Sunni issue.  

 

 

 

N.J  Dawood's is an interpretation and not a translation 

 

No, it is a translation.  He says so on the cover.

 

 

. Then again Dawood is jewish so you cant expect him to be an expert on Quranic exegesis.

 

Jews can not be experts on the Quran?  Please explain why.

 

All the Best, 

David

Edited by David66

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Then again Dawood is jewish so you cant expect him to be an expert on Quranic exegesis.

 

Yes, but Arabic is his native tongue. 

 

Even Europeans like Arberry and Rodwell who are also both non-Muslims have much better translations. 

 

From your post and baqar's I now realize the differences in translations stem from a Shia / Sunni issue. 

 

Quite often, yes.

 

 

No, I do not find it funny.  

 

The part that I thought you might find strange was two sets of people being addressed in the same verse.  That is why I gave the example of [12:29] about Joseph. 

And in both cases, it was all very subtle.

 

Thankfully, if it wasn't for the intricacies of Arabic grammar, we would have never known what exactly the Quran was talking about.  

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No, I do not find it funny.  From your post and baqar's I now realize the differences in translations stem from a Shia / Sunni issue.  

 

And if you read the exegesis (tafseer) by a variety of Muslims, you will find the differences in the Shia and Sunni interpretations even more mind-boggling.  

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Yes, but Arabic is his native tongue. 

 

 

 

 

I said Quranic exegesis, not translation. Exegesis means interpretation, his Arabic is probably no worse than most of the Quranic translators but he's blissfully ignorant of the interpretive tradition of Islam.

 

 

No, it is a translation.  He says so on the cover.

 

Its definitely an interpretation, you just have to read the preface/intro to see him explain that. No arab would call that a translation, certainly not Dawood lol .

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As baqar has already mentioned, however many verses there may be reprimanding Jews & Christians, those verses do not apply to every Jew or Christian.

 

Besides, you totally ignore the many verses that are in rebuke of Muslims. 

 

 

And what about Muslims?

 

Muslims killed the Prophet's grandson and 18 members of his family in one day.  

 

They took the grand-daughters of the Prophet in custody, kept them in prison and tortured them.

 

All our Imams were killed by Muslims.

 

Not one of them was killed by a non-Muslim.

 

And what are we doing now.

 

In 2013, 8000 (eight thousand) Shias were killed by other Muslims in Iraq alone.

 

And add to that the number of Muslims killed in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Syria.

 

Christians may be bad but we are not all that good either. 

 

My friend, my sincere advice to you is to go easy on them.

 

Do argue your points with them firmly and fiercely but please do so in a manner that convinces them.

 

I am not trying to criticize you. 

 

Just that we should all try to give non-Muslims a better understanding of Islam in a dignified manner.

 

I am sure you are a good Muslim and you will take my advice well.

 

Thanks, brother

 

Muslims killed the Ahlul Bayt? 

Actually there is a known fact that Yazeed had a advisor who was known as "Sir John" and i dont consider any of the killers of Ahlul Bayt as Muslims

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i dont consider any of the killers of Ahlul Bayt as Muslims

 

I don't either but 99.99% of Muslims at the time did.  

 

Individual opinions are beside the point.   

 

The point is that the vast majority of all human beings  throughout history, be they Jew, Christian or Muslim, have not been very good people. 

 

And that is why you have all those people deviating from the teachings of their religion.

 

As for the verses you have quoted, they have a related context and one cannot arrive at very quick conclusions.

 

As pointed out, there are also some very nice words in the Quran both for Jews & Christians.

 

We fail to understand what you gain by endlessly quoting the derogatory verses.

 

If you wish to be fair, you should also quote

  • verses in praise of Jews & Christians and
  • verses rebuking Muslims.

I am sure you will understand, brother, that there is always a better approach and a better way of doing things.

 

And I assure you that you can do better.


Actually there is a known fact that Yazeed had an adviser who was known as "Sir John" 

 

I have never heard of him. 

 

Even if there was, Sir John did not kill the Ahlul Bayt.

 

Muslims did.


Muslims killed the Ahlul Bayt? 

 

They killed all our Imams.

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I don't either but 99.99% of Muslims at the time did.  

 

Individual opinions are beside the point.   

 

The point is that the vast majority of all human beings  throughout history, be they Jew, Christian or Muslim, have not been very good people. 

 

And that is why you have all those people deviating from the teachings of their religion.

 

As for the verses you have quoted, they have a related context and one cannot arrive at very quick conclusions.

 

As pointed out, there are also some very nice words in the Quran both for Jews & Christians.

 

We fail to understand what you gain by endlessly quoting the derogatory verses.

 

If you wish to be fair, you should also quote

  • verses in praise of Jews & Christians and
  • verses rebuking Muslims.

I am sure you will understand, brother, that there is always a better approach and a better way of doing things.

 

And I assure you that you can do better.

 

I have never heard of him. 

 

Even if there was, Sir John did not kill the Ahlul Bayt.

 

Muslims did.

 

They killed all our Imams.

 

Every verse i quoted are VERSES of the QURAN, so stop trying to convince me that God is talking nonsense 

look at this verse

You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and his Sunnah] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah . And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun(disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Say: O followers of the book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

They wish to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths (by uttering blasphemies); but Allah refuses but to perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may resent it. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the disbelievers may resent it. [Chapter 9:32-33]

Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth (that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses) if you understand.

A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

So you can believe what you like, in my personal dealings the Christians truly had bad intentions , they were truly twisting truth and i had lost all respect for them. Maybe the ones here have good intention but God says in the above verses that MOST OF THEM ARE TRANSGRESSORS and wish evil intention, and i believe God and the Quran 

You can be all "pluarlistic religion" but i dont believe in that when they are neck deep in sin and alcohol and evil , they are constantly drunk or najas from being within the scope of 40 days having drunk alcohol and that alone to me is enough to make me want to be away from them and not take them as friends 

 

 

 

I don't either but 99.99% of Muslims at the time did.  

 

Individual opinions are beside the point.   

 

The point is that the vast majority of all human beings  throughout history, be they Jew, Christian or Muslim, have not been very good people. 

 

And that is why you have all those people deviating from the teachings of their religion.

 

As for the verses you have quoted, they have a related context and one cannot arrive at very quick conclusions.

 

As pointed out, there are also some very nice words in the Quran both for Jews & Christians.

 

We fail to understand what you gain by endlessly quoting the derogatory verses.

 

If you wish to be fair, you should also quote

  • verses in praise of Jews & Christians and
  • verses rebuking Muslims.

I am sure you will understand, brother, that there is always a better approach and a better way of doing things.

 

And I assure you that you can do better.

 

I have never heard of him. 

 

Even if there was, Sir John did not kill the Ahlul Bayt.

 

Muslims did.

 

They killed all our Imams.

 

Again stop trying to twist information, Muslims didnt kill the Imams it was the Arabs that did that and it had nothing to do with "muslims" because to be a Muslim there is requirements and nobody attacked the Imams not knowingly 

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Every verse i quoted are VERSES of the QURAN, so stop trying to convince me that God is talking nonsense 

 

I have already responded to all your points in my last post. Very briefly once again, the Quran is not a literal book.  

 

You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and his Sunnah] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah . And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, while most of them are al-Fasiqun

 

Ayatulla Tabatabai says as follows about this verse [3:110] as follows:-

 

"O Muslims! you were - when you were brought forth first of all and appeared for the people - the best group that was ever formed, because at that time you enjoined good and forbade evil, and holding fast by the cord of Allah you became united and unified like one body and one soul; and if the People of the Book too were like that it would have been better for them, but they are divided and disunited - some of them are believers while most of them are transgressors."

 

Clearly, the verse applies to the past - relative to the time of its revelation. 

 

Not even all Muslims at the time of revelation are included.

 

Once again, that proves my point that the Quran cannot be quoted as freely as you are trying to do.

 

Read the  the parts I have emboldened in color very carefully. 

 

This was my last post.

 

If you wish to persist in your madness, keep going.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Again stop trying to twist information, Muslims didnt kill the Imams it was the Arabs that did that and it had nothing to do with "muslims" because to be a Muslim there is requirements and nobody attacked the Imams not knowingly 

 

Well on that score, does your behavior in this forum qualify you to be a Muslim?

 

Think about it. 

 

Until then,  good-bye, au revoir & auf wiedersehen 

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Hello,

 

This thread I think is a warning to us all.  It demonstrates the hatred and intolerance that religion often times creates.  Obviously, God could come to Earth each year and do an audit on "religious interpretations."  He could say, this no, this yes, etc. etc.  He has chosen not to do so.  

 

Christianty is a sick, demented, pagan, man made religion. It's really disgusting tbh to make Jesus PBUH as a God.
 

 

This is the sickness of EVERY Christian i have ever spoken with
 

 

All good people, regardless of religious belief must speak out about the types of comments shown above.  To have different beliefs is one thing, But, too dehumanize others as in the above statements is what has caused untold death, destruction and horror throughout human history.  And, we see it in the news today,  in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, CAR, Kenya, Myanmar.  If we continue to dehumanize those of other faiths only death and destruction awaits.

 

Differences of opinion are part of being human.  God gave us big brains.  Obviously he wants us to question and use reason.  Lets use our big brains to concentrate on the positives of our chosen religion.  Lets use our intellect to realize and profess that we are all brothers and sisters.  Let us use our intellect to realize the value of tolerance and the wisdom of reserving the right to judge others as God's and God's alone.

 

All the Best,

David

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All good people, regardless of religious belief must speak out about the types of comments shown above.  

 

Absolutely.  This is nothing but madness. We should all request the mods to ask our friends why their hatred is so intense.

 

Until then, my request to everyone is as follows:-

 

Please don't reply to such posts or to anyone who does not talk to you politely and rationally.

 

Ignore evil and evil will fade away before the end of its natural term.

Lets use our big brains to concentrate on the positives of our chosen religion.  

 

Some of us do not have as big a brain as we think we do.

Edited by baqar

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firstly i dont hate anyone, all that i am saying is that the Christians and Jews(with the exception of some) have broken the laws and commandments of God and have forsook the covenant with God

and God has cast them out(unless they repent and never return back to their sin)

In Islam i can say all my life i am a Muslim and i folow Islam, however if i SIN then at that instant i am thrown out of Islam on my head 

Islam and true belief of ANY of God's revelations is about beliving and following, if you claim to believe but you dont follow then you are a disbeliever

and unfotunately the Christians and Jews have made a lifestyle out of disbelief, they drink anything they eat anything and they do anything, there is no laws  

i live in a Jeudo-Christian country and i have HARDLY ever met any teenager and above whi is a Christian or Jew that follows God's commandments , ONLY the Muslims are left that stick to this so faithfully 

we dont touch alcohol we dont eat so much food, we dont sleep around, we dont go to night clubs or dance parties, we dont do so much , and we pary alot we fast alot etc

i have got to KNOW MANY Christians and Jews, and they are COMPLETELY away from God(except old people who are awaiting death and pastors/rabbis/priests and their families[although not always] and freinds[not always])

THIS is what it means to be a believer regardless of the tile of the religion Jew, Christian, Muslim 

belief is BELIEF int he punishment of God, and the reward of God and the commandments of God, because there is NO OTHER way to believe in God

obedience = belief
disobedience = disbelief 

and like i said HARDLY anyone outside of Islam is adhereing to it , and even worse the CHristians and Jews have changed what was once forbidden so that they dont even know that they are sinning i.e Alcohol/Pork

i know one Jehovas Witness who follows his religion around his wife and kids, but the moment he is alone he doesnt care about ANYTHING he goes to church , wears a smile, but behind their back he sleeps around and drinks and takes everything and eats everything, and that is just one of the MANY i have met that disregard God's laws

that was my point all along 

even if i as a Muslim begin to eat pork and drink alcohol and do whatever, i would be in the same boat as everyone else, doesnt matter what "lip service" i give, and how much "love" i talk about, God is not interested in lip service, God is interested in obedience and actions 

everything else is hot smoke

you pray? you avoid sins? you do good deeds? then you can call God whatever you want by whatever name, because you are a believer in HIS commandments and hence HIS existence 





 

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If there's any "Muslims" here trying to make hereno477 look bad, or suggest something negative..than Inshallah the true Muslims shall be distinguished from any that have been corrupted by this world with sick ideologies.

Islam is anti aggression, anti violence, it is for honesty, for justice.

The honest truth is Christianity is fake, and an insult to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him.

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Umm, what do you mean about Jews forsaking their covenant with G-d? There are thousands upon thousands who keep His commandments with zeal that even you would envy. There are lots of Jews who don't follow all the laws, but there are so many that do. In fact, several Muslim families here in Orlando only buy kosher meat from our local farms because our Jews are so good at cleansing the meat of the blood (kosher is more strict than halal in this regard).

Salam and Shalom

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Umm, what do you mean about Jews forsaking their covenant with G-d? There are thousands upon thousands who keep His commandments with zeal that even you would envy. There are lots of Jews who don't follow all the laws, but there are so many that do. In fact, several Muslim families here in Orlando only buy kosher meat from our local farms because our Jews are so good at cleansing the meat of the blood (kosher is more strict than halal in this regard).

Salam and Shalom

It's not more strict. That's a lie. Those "Muslim" families are doing haram thing, as kosher is not allowed as the kosher standards aren't clean enough.

Jews at the end of the day still drink alcohol, think it's ok to go out in bikinis, and many even pork here in USA " reformed jews" Lol so sad

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Wisdom Lion, you should convert to Islam. It's right up your alley :)

It's not more strict. That's a lie. Those "Muslim" families are doing haram thing, as kosher is not allowed as the kosher standards aren't clean enough.

Jews at the end of the day still drink alcohol, think it's ok to go out in bikinis, and many even pork here in USA " reformed jews" Lol so sad

Kosher is way more strict than Halal. Any Muslim can perform halal slaughter. Only a trained shochet can perform kosher slaughter. Orthodox Jews don't wear bikinis or eat pork.

I feel like I am more knowledgable about the Qur'an than you, Wisdom Lion :( that makes me sad :(

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Wisdom Lion, you should convert to Islam. It's right up your alley :)

Kosher is way more strict than Halal. Any Muslim can perform halal slaughter. Only a trained shochet can perform kosher slaughter. Orthodox Jews don't wear bikinis or eat pork.

I feel like I am more knowledgable about the Qur'an than you, Wisdom Lion :( that makes me sad :(

Doesn't matter if somebody is trained for it. That shows how impractical that is as a trained butcher is not always readily available. The steps are required whether somebody is a trained butcher or not, so it doesn't matter which Muslims is doing it as long it's done the right way.

Immature thinking...maybe you're mind will mature someday lol

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Umm use your logic next time you see a doctor for something like surgery. The steps are required whether someone is a trained doctor or not, but that's besides the point I guess :lol:

I'd rather see a doctor, but I guess Julios garage works too...

maturity my friend :)

Edited by Netzari

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Becoming a doctor is not a religious requirement, having halal food is a religious requirement.

It's also very strange to compare butchering to surgery, don't know how you came up with that far fetched conclusion.

Better luck next time lol

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LOL, if this conversation gets any dumber I'm gonna pee my pants laughing.

 

Any idea why butchering Halal style in Canada and the US is illegal? Any idea how they get around it? Any idea how many ways pork products are used in American foods? Even Netzari should look into it, then again, maybe not. I have a buddy in the meat inspection business. From slaughter to packaging, he can tell you supply and demand dictates who gets what and when. Call it what you like once it gets there, people will buy it, you will need more. Better put in your next order now. I should ask him about violations he's found in Fla.  

 

Herenow sounds jealous he has to follow all the rules while Christians play. Too bad my god is so much better than his.

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Wisdom Lion, you should convert to Islam. It's right up your alley :)

Kosher is way more strict than Halal. Any Muslim can perform halal slaughter. Only a trained shochet can perform kosher slaughter. Orthodox Jews don't wear bikinis or eat pork.

I feel like I am more knowledgable about the Qur'an than you, Wisdom Lion :( that makes me sad :(

 

In fact, not even a Muslim, I as a Christian with a Muslim witnessing can perform halal slaughter as long as "Allahu Akbar" is said.

 

Herenow sounds jealous he has to follow all the rules while Christians play. Too bad my god is so much better than his.

 

my God is better than yours. Hey man, did Jesus ever come by your neck of the woods? No!

He visited my country (lebanon), trump that! lol

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It's not more strict. That's a lie. Those "Muslim" families are doing haram thing, as kosher is not allowed as the kosher standards aren't clean enough.

Jews at the end of the day still drink alcohol, think it's ok to go out in bikinis, and many even pork here in USA " reformed jews" Lol so sad

like i said i have met MANY Jews and MANY Christians, and they ado nto follow ANY laws of ANY kind 

NOTHING is off the table, they laugh at the idea of obedience

you cant even talk to them about it

if you say to them something like "dont lie or dotn swear" they say you are an extremist and taking life to "hard"  

how many people i knew that wont even talk to me because i am not "fun" enough i stop them from swearing and etc i say "that a sin and you know it" and they get offended like "stop telling me what to do " or make some joke about it o about you 

they have NO respect for God's commandments , they make fun of you and look at yo weird if you talk about God and sin and evil 

and this is the state for everyone today, the status quo of evil 

a miserable life in my point of view 

 

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Theyre quite reminiscient of the Old and New Testament as well.

I know, so you see my point? Without actually explaining the passages what are people to perceive?

like i said i have met MANY Jews and MANY Christians, and they ado nto follow ANY laws of ANY kind 

NOTHING is off the table, they laugh at the idea of obedience

you cant even talk to them about it

if you say to them something like "dont lie or dotn swear" they say you are an extremist and taking life to "hard"  

how many people i knew that wont even talk to me because i am not "fun" enough i stop them from swearing and etc i say "that a sin and you know it" and they get offended like "stop telling me what to do " or make some joke about it o about you 

they have NO respect for God's commandments , they make fun of you and look at yo weird if you talk about God and sin and evil 

and this is the state for everyone today, the status quo of evil 

a miserable life in my point of view

There are many people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or Muslim or whomever and do not abide by their faith.

As long as you are happy and content in your life/religion it should not matter to you.

Secondly religion is about Tolerance, Love, and respect for Humanity.

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From Post 61, --- Anyone who has no respect for God is not a Christian, I also stop people from swearing or telling off-color jokes.

--- (This is to explain the misconception of these verses.)

Quote from Post 1:

4:171 O followers of the book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. 3:48

172 The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.

Response: --- These are the verses Muslims should use in response to Trinitarians, but to those of us who are not Trinitarians, it just confirms what the NT teaches, --- and it is what I believe.

If ‘trinitarians’ had come to discuss their doctrine, --- the verse says:

Don’t exaggerate by saying (Jesus is God), --- Jesus was just the Apostle or Messenger of God, --- and His Word, WHICH HE BESTOWED ON MARY, --- and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) from Him (God).

It mentions three from heaven, --- God (the Father of all), --- the Word, --- and the Spirit (that came from God)

1 John 5:7 says, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

--- These three were from the beginning of creation, Genesis 1:1-3.

BUT DON’T SAY THREE, or ‘TRINITY,’ --- God is One God.

Notice, --- that there are ‘three in heaven,’ but Jesus was not one of them. --- Jesus was the Messenger, or Servant to God as it says in the next verse:

172 The Messiah (Jesus) does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him.

When the verse says, “Say not Three,” --- it is acknowledging that there are ‘three,’

God (the Father of all) --- The Word, --- and the Holy Spirit (of God). 1 John 5:7

So what it says to Trinitarians is that Jesus was not one of the Three in heaven.

And what it says to Muslims is that there were, and are, THREE IN HEAVEN.

God is God and there is no other, and there are three Manifestations of God.

The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit are Servants to the Father. The Father does the ‘deciding,’ and the Word and the Holy Spirit carry out the work

--- God determined to bring Jesus into the world by saying “Be” – and he was.

The Word came from God and indwelt the body of Jesus, Surah 3:45

And the Holy Spirit was with Jesus on earth. 2:87, 2:253, and 5:110.

--- And the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and believers in Acts 2.

Placid

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Explanation of another verse that was mentioned, in its context, --- 2:138.

136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

137 So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but God will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

138 (Our religion is) the Baptism of God: And who can baptize better than God? And it is He Whom we worship.

139 Say: Will ye dispute with us about God, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

136 is like a ‘statement of faith’ of what Muslims believed.

137 --- So if others believe (as we do) in all the Prophets, including Jesus, then we are on the right track.

138 --- Our religion is “The Baptism of God.” --- I have not heard of Muslims baptizing with water, but this has to refer to ‘the total submersion of one, in dedication to God.’

In surrendering to God, ‘Baptism’ is a symbol of abandoning the old life for the new, and in this case, --- it applies to both the conversion experience of Christians, and the total submission of Muslims to God, which is what Islam means, is it not?

139 ---This asks the good questions. --- Will you argue with us about God, --- seeing He is our Lord and your Lord?

This is it. --- There is one God, so we should seek harmony. --- Satan is our common enemy, --- but immature people (who don’t understand the bigger picture) do Satan’s work by promoting division, rather than harmony.

And the last part of 139, “(Don’t you know) --- that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?”

The harmony and responsibility of each is shown in another verse in Surah 5:

48 And unto thee (Muhammad) have We (God) revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher (guardian) over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, --- (and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee). --- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

--- (This verse is at the end of a long context on the ‘light and guidance’ given to Jews and Christians, and it shows how ‘God made us as we are.’

It says, FOR EACH WE HAVE APPOINTED A DIVINE LAW AND A TRACED-OUT WAY

--- So we are to follow the Scriptures given to us, are we not?

If Jews still live by the OT, then they are to do a good job of it.

As Christians, we believe in all the Prophets of the OT, and we believe in John the Baptist and Jesus who brought in God’s new plan of salvation, so Christians are to be totally committed to God, --- or they are hypocrites to say they are Christians.

Muslims need to be Muslims, and should believe in all the Prophets as it says in 2:136, and in the former Scriptures as the truth, as it says in 5:48.

And we are to ‘vie’’ with one another in good works, --- That means ‘to outdo one another as in a race’ --- in doing ‘good works.’

Wow, --- What a world that would be.

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When the verse says, “Say not Three,” --- it is acknowledging that there are ‘three,’

 

Hi Placid

 

I am afraid your conclusion is illogical. The Quran is not acknowledging the three at all. 

 

On the contrary, it is demolishing all forms of THREEs in that verse.

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Hi Baqar, I understand what you are saying.

 

In 171 it describes Isa as an apostle of Allah,

His Word was communicated to Marium (must mean she was given the Injeel?).

Isa is also given a spirit from God. Everyone gets a spirit with which to live, I wonder if the spirit given to Isa was special enough to mention.

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In 171 it describes Isa as an apostle of Allah,

 

 

Hi SoP

 

So are Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Isaac,Ishmael, Jacob etc in various other places.

 

His Word was communicated to Marium (must mean she was given the Injeel?).

 

 

The word 'word' for us is spelt with a small W. Because it does not mean anything close to what you understand from it.  Jesus' birth is sourced to the 'word' of God.  

 

Which word? - Be and it is

 

must mean she was given the Injeel?

 

The Injeel was given to Jesus, not to his mother  [57:27]

 

I wonder if the spirit given to Isa was special enough to mention.

 

Of course.  He was more than just special. 

 

Islam forbids invidious comparisons. But since you ask, I have no other option.

 

Jesus was sent as a mercy but Muhammad was sent as mercy for all universes.  Translators translate the word AALAMEEN in [21:107] as 'all men', but it really means 'all universes'.

 

Even translated as 'all men', it places Muhammad at the top of the list.  

 

Cheers

Edited by baqar

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When the verse says, “Say not Three,” --- it is acknowledging that there are ‘three,’

God (the Father of all) --- The Word, --- and the Holy Spirit (of God). 1 John 5:7

So what it says to Trinitarians is that Jesus was not one of the Three in heaven.

And what it says to Muslims is that there were, and are, THREE IN HEAVEN.

 

Hi Placid

 

I have already pointed out to you that your statement "When the verse says 'Say not three', it is acknowledging that there are three" is illogical. There is absolutely no logic in that statement. And as I also said, the Quran is, on the contrary, rejecting the Trinity in that statement.

 

But there is more in your post that is false.   You said that 'it' is acknowledging that there are THREE in heaven.  Who is 'it' in that statement there?

 

Your use of your word 'it' in that statement is actually quite misleading and deceptive. 

 

Because 'it' in the English language is singular - not plural. Yet you have two different verses from two different scriptures which, according to you, lead to that conclusion.

 

'It' can only mean either the Quran or John 5:7, but not both.

 

Now, if you are trying to say that

  •  the Quran is telling Muslims that there are three in heaven, you  must justify your statement  by producing logical arguments from the Quran.
  •  John 5:7 is telling Muslims that there are three in heaven, well, we all know that John doesn't tell Muslims anything.

     

It is not fair that you are combining the two and then saying that this is what the Quran says and one billion Muslims are absolute fools and you, Placid, are there to set things right for them.

 

I don't mind your believing anything you wish, and if you wish to say that one billion Muslims are fools and you have discovered the truth, you are entitled to do that as well. No problems.

 

But I am afraid your point needs to be supported by logical arguments. Outside this site, you can say what you wish. But here, if you wish to debunk Islamic beliefs, please produce arguments from scriptures that we follow. 

 

By presenting one line from the Quran and another line from the Bible and then claiming that this is what the Quran says, you are making a mockery of the teachings of Islam and deliberately trying to falsify things. 

 

In fact, you and I both know only too well that you have been doing this for quite some time. And as I told you earlier, in my view, the reason why you have been getting by so far is partly because of the length of your posts. Most people generally miss the point you are  trying to make.

 

However, if you think that the Quran supports your thinking, please produce logical arguments to that effect. There should be no problems with that!

 

By the way, your son was talking about something completely different.

 

While you were talking about some sort of a TRINITY that exists in Islam and one billion Muslims refusing to accept it, your son was talking about the place of Jesus in Islam.  That is a different topic altogether.

 

To end this post, please allow me to say once again that if you wish to insist that there indeed is a TRINITY in Islam and that Muslims have completely misunderstood the Quran, do please enlighten us with the truth as you see it. This site is generally a free for all. You can say what you want.  

 

But please don't mix two different scriptures to make your point.

 

In closing, if you think that one billion Muslims are wrong, please prove your point only from the Quran.

 

Thanks  

 

baqar 

Edited by baqar

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