Pathology Of Shia-Sunni Discussions

[amirhosein_88]

Salamun Alaykum.

We as Shi'a, while discussing with our Sunni brothers, try to base our views on Sunni collections of hadith specially Sihah Sittah. This is good per se although our Sunni friends hardly try to base their doctrines on Shia books.

However, what I, out of personal experiences, have found threatening is that some Shia brothers (however few) go so deeply in such discussions that they neglect our Shi'a sources and if they are not able to find any proof from Sunni sources (while there are many proofs from Shia sources) their heart does not rest in peace. It is true that in most cases we have abundant proofs from Sunni sources but we should be aware that firstly, this method is to be used for discussions and to increase our knowledge, we have to refer to our own sources as well and secondly, for some part of our beliefs, we may not find a Sunni proof and this by no means should cause any doubt in our mind and heart.

In a nutshell, to go deeply through Sihah Sittah should not lead us to neglect Kutub Arba'a!

 

YOUR comments are appreciated.

[Aquib Rizvi]

(salam)

 

Cant agree more brother.

 

(wasalam)

[realizm]

(salam)

Same here.

Maybe it is because we shias do not base our religion on "sacred" ahadith, unlike sunnis who do even though many of them are fabricated.

Personally I am very skeptical of such ahadith in shia Islam, so when I find sources on which everybody agrees, I feel more comfortable because I know that particular point of detail of my religion is true.

That's why I tend to put all secondary aspects of shiism aside.

Good side of this is that I am perfectly at ease with core beliefs of shia Islam because they can be found found in all sources.

Edited April 6, 2014 by realizm

[Gypsy]

I think most of the problems in Shia-Sunni discourse stem from over-reliance on hadith books which in my opinion is a very faulty approach.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Gypsy

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

 

We rely on scholars to authenticate hadith narrators. We believe in those scholars because we believe they authenticate the right hadith narrators. The 12 Imams designation is through hadith narrators.  We believe in the hadith narrators due to them narrating from the 12 Imams which is a result of our belief in the 12 Imams. We also believe in the scholars for the same reason. This forms a circular reasoning.

 

Thus Shia scholarship and shia books are not enough to establish the Imamate of the 12 Imams. There needs to be something that escapes this form of circular reasoning.

Edited April 6, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Ethics]

Salam

 

We rely on scholars to authenticate hadith narrators. We believe in those scholars because we believe they authenticate the right hadith narrators. The 12 Imams designation is through hadith narrators.  We believe in the hadith narrators due to them narrating from the 12 Imams which is a result of our belief in the 12 Imams. We also believe in the scholars for the same reason. This forms a circular reasoning.

 

Thus Shia scholarship and shia books are not enough to establish the Imamate of the 12 Imams. There needs to be something that escapes this form of circular reasoning.

 

Huh? You dont make any sense brother, im sorry. What is a scholar? What is knowledge? How is it circular reasoning, when you learn/take knowledge from someone? Im not arrogant enough to make myself a scholar, for example, when I dont even understand the nature of Allah 100%. Its called trusting someones judgement. When you go to school, do you not automatically trust the teacher at hand teaching the material? Is the degree you gain due to circular reasoning. Is it circular reasoning when the material is written by another scholar, which is taught by a professor/scholar/teacher? Of course not. It is impossible to gain knowledge just by yourself unless your a scientist or innovator, which even then depends on past research and knowledge which came from someone in the past.

 

Also, you do realize there is a system to rijal? Authenticating is based upon the narrators credibility and truthfulness. Not only that, but MOST of the time, they are companions of our imams/prophet. How do I test your credibility? How do I know and understand you? Of course, your social interactions will test your credibility, thus rijal is a system based upon that. There is no way of getting knowledge without communicating between man. Its absurd to call it circular reasoning. Everything revolves around communicating, including knowledge and understanding, which stems from religion.

 

(wasalam)

Edited April 6, 2014 by PureEthics

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Huh? You dont make any sense brother, im sorry. What is a scholar? What is knowledge? How is it circular reasoning, when you learn/take knowledge from someone? Im not arrogant enough to make myself a scholar, for example, when I dont even understand the nature of Allah 100%. Its called trusting someones judgement. When you go to school, do you not automatically trust the teacher at hand teaching the material? Is the degree you gain due to circular reasoning. Is it circular reasoning when the material is written by another scholar, which is taught by a professor/scholar/teacher? Of course not. It is impossible to gain knowledge just by yourself unless your a scientist or innovator, which even then depends on past research and knowledge which came from someone in the past.

 

Also, you do realize there is a system to rijal? Authenticating is based upon the narrators credibility and truthfulness. Not only that, but MOST of the time, they are companions of our imams/prophet. How do I test your credibility? How do I know and understand you? Of course, your social interactions will test your credibility, thus rijal is a system based upon that. There is no way of getting knowledge without communicating between man. Its absurd to call it circular reasoning. Everything revolves around communicating, including knowledge and understanding, which stems from religion.

 

(wasalam)

Salam

 

I'm not saying we can't learn from scholars. But we can't believe in the 12 Imams due to scholars (authenticating hadiths that teach these 12 been designated) and at the same want to follow the scholars because we say they teach the 12 Imams teachings. I hope you understand.   IT's the same with hadith narrators. We can't believe in hadiths and hadith narrators because they are teachings of 12 Imams and at the same time believe in the 12 Imams due to hadiths or hadith narrators. 

Edited April 6, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Ethics]

Salam

 

I'm not saying we can't learn from scholars. But we can't believe in the 12 Imams due to scholars (authenticating hadiths that teach these 12 been designated) and at the same want to follow the scholars because we say they teach the 12 Imams teachings. I hope you understand.   IT's the same with hadith narrators. We can't believe in hadiths and hadith narrators because they are teachings of 12 Imams and at the same time believe in the 12 Imams due to hadiths or hadith narrators. 

 

(wasalam)

 

Again, im sorry brother but you dont make any sense what so ever. Why cant we believe? What is your argument based on? I dont get it.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

(wasalam)

 

Again, im sorry brother but you dont make any sense what so ever. Why cant we believe? What is your argument based on? I dont get it.

 

Salam

 

Well if you believe in the 12 Imams due to our hadiths. And believe in those hadiths due to our ilmel rijaal. And when asked why do you believe in our imel rijaal instead Sunni ilmel rijaal and you go - well it's because of the 12 Imams. You are making a circle. You believe in the 12 Imams due to hadiths and you believe in the hadiths due to 12 Imams. It's circular reasoning. None of these are believed for independent reasons but on a circular reason.

 

You need to escape this circle to justify your belief.

[EthidiumIodide]

You believe in the 12 Imams due to hadiths and you believe in the hadiths due to 12 Imams. It's circular reasoning. 

 

[Ethics]

Salam

 

Well if you believe in the 12 Imams due to our hadiths. And believe in those hadiths due to our ilmel rijaal. And when asked why do you believe in our imel rijaal instead Sunni ilmel rijaal and you go - well it's because of the 12 Imams. You are making a circle. You believe in the 12 Imams due to hadiths and you believe in the hadiths due to 12 Imams. It's circular reasoning. None of these are believed for independent reasons but on a circular reason.

 

You need to escape this circle to justify your belief.

 

1. It isnt our made up hadith. It is hadith collected from history in general, whether it came from other islamic sects or not.

2. As I mentioned before, ilm rijal is a logical check system. Its not something we make just to make ourselves believe it. Its legit unlike sunnis bias joke of rijal system. How can it be made up when we use other sources (non-imami included) to check the credibility of a person?

3. Believing in hadith is believing in history but from a divine source.

4. You do realize in religion there is something called faith right?

5. You believe in God  because a book that has no author tells you so. You believe in the same exact history (ex world history) written by a author who was never in that time to begin with.

 

**You would have to bring evidence showing 1 or 2 is actually fabricated or bias. Even then, we shias dont take fabricated hadith to begin with, and the non-bias is proved due to the fact that we take hadiths from non-imami narrators.

 

What do you mean by "independent"? What is independent reasons?

 

Check this out: http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3394

Edited April 6, 2014 by PureEthics

[StrugglingForTheLight]

So what you are proposing is that you believe in Shia Ilmel Rijaal based on it's credibility. And you believe in 12 Imams due to those hadiths but don't believe in the Shia Ilmel rijaal system due to 12 Imams (or that isn't a factor). Why is the Sunni Rijaal system a joke? Perhaps it has flaws, but why generally rejected? The reality is Shias don't believe in Shia Ilmel Rijaal due to it's credibility, they aren't aware of the details of it or the weakness or strengths of it.  However your proposition does escape this circle. I'm not aware of how Shia Rijaal system is stronger then Sunni system.

Edited April 6, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Ethics]

So what you are proposing is that you believe in Shia Ilmel Rijaal based on it's credibility. Why is the Sunni Rijaal system a joke? Perhaps it has flaws, but why generally rejected? The reality is Shias don't believe in Shia Ilmel Rijaal due to it's credibility, they aren't aware of the details of it or the weakness or strengths of it.  

 

You wanna know? Check these link out, and make sure to check the link above out. Going to most of these "proto-sunni" forums will tell you what kind of rijal game they are playing...

 

Click Here - The Failure & Bias of Sunni Rijal

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3187

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3186

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa7359

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

 

Thanks for the links.  How do you propose most Shias faith is justified though if they aren't aware of the details of the weakness of the Sunni system and the strength of the Shia system?

[Ethics]

Salam

 

Thanks for the links.  How do you propose most Shias faith is justified though if they aren't aware of the details of the weakness of the Sunni system and the strength of the Shia system?

 

Faith does not need justification. What needs to be justified, first and foremost to yourself, is what you deem truthful, the path that you choose. To me, its the never ending challenges to my own faith that I come by, challenging the perfection of Allah's system (//religion//). In my eyes, alhamduillah, so far none can defeat. The fact that we are the only religion that deems Allah's religion to be perfect, through his perfect messengers/prophet, protected/lead/guided by perfect imams, all within their own limited free will, to me is truth.

 

 

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani

 

(wasalam)

Edited April 6, 2014 by PureEthics

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

 

I'm not to sure if everything deemed Sahih or even mutuwatir is true however. For example, I don't believe in the laws of killing apostates for one it goes against morals and for 2nd there is a verse in Suratal Nisa that contradicts this notion. Therefore I don't believe our religion has been perfectly safeguarded. 

 

Allah (swt) sent perfect revelations and sent Imams to safeguard the message as well in the past before Mohammad (saw), it didn't stop the religion from being corrupted. In fact, there was never a success of safeguarding the religion. What makes this time all that different?

[Ethics]

Salam

 

I'm not to sure if everything deemed Sahih or even mutuwatir is true however. For example, I don't believe in the laws of killing apostates for one it goes against morals and for 2nd there is a verse in Suratal Nisa that contradicts this notion. Therefore I don't believe our religion has been perfectly safeguarded. 

 

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì sent perfect revelations and sent Imams to safeguard the message as well in the past before Mohammad (saw), it didn't stop the religion from being corrupted. In fact, there was never a success of safeguarding the religion. What makes this time all that different?

 

 

Brother make a thread on this if you wanna challenge the perfection of the Quran/Allah's system. However, one thing I would like to tell you, is by the second you deem it this way, your whole religion becomes void and imperfect, thus it nullifies the whole notion of the guidance of Allah and God can be easily disproved. So please dont be haste to make quick judgements, think carefully, no matter how long it takes. Research, research, research...

 

(wasalam)

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Brother make a thread on this if you wanna challenge the perfection of the Quran/Allah's system. However, one thing I would like to tell you, is by the second you deem it this way, your whole religion becomes void and imperfect, thus it nullifies the whole notion of the guidance of Allah and God can be easily disproved. So please dont be haste to make quick judgements, think carefully, no matter how long it takes. Research, research, research...

 

(wasalam)

Salam

 

If you lived during a time where the messages of the Prophets were corrupted to a degree and you deemed it corrupted instead of following the scholar/priest class saying it's safeguarded, would your whole religion become void and imperfect?

[amirhosein_88]

I think most of the problems in Shia-Sunni discourse stem from over-reliance on hadith books which in my opinion is a very faulty approach.

Salamun alaykum. Would you pl. clarify your idea. What else if not hadith books? Any suitable alternative?

Salam

 

We rely on scholars to authenticate hadith narrators. We believe in those scholars because we believe they authenticate the right hadith narrators. The 12 Imams designation is through hadith narrators.  We believe in the hadith narrators due to them narrating from the 12 Imams which is a result of our belief in the 12 Imams. We also believe in the scholars for the same reason. This forms a circular reasoning.

 

Thus Shia scholarship and shia books are not enough to establish the Imamate of the 12 Imams. There needs to be something that escapes this form of circular reasoning.

Salamun alaykum. Good points but I think  if we establish the Imamate of our 12 Imams on Prophetic narrations (mentioned in our hadith collections) then there, I believe, there is no such circular reasoning. Besides, referring to Sunni collections has the same consequence.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salamun alaykum. Would you pl. clarify your idea. What else if not hadith books? Any suitable alternative?

Salamun alaykum. Good points but I think  if we establish the Imamate of our 12 Imams on Prophetic narrations (mentioned in our hadith collections) then there, I believe, there is no such circular reasoning. Besides, referring to Sunni collections has the same consequence.

Salam

 

The way I go about it, is that mainly verses in Quran such as 42:23 and 25:57 make believe there is a chosen family.  Then there is historical events that can't be denied like the event of mubihla and the ghadeer declaration. This forms a belief in chosen families. Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain seem to the be only ones who fit the in the category of the chosen family of Mohammad during his time based on historical events like mubahila. 

 

Muslims seem to have a mutuwatir declaration of the Mahdi as well.  The Mahdi is also a logical belief if you believe a member of the chosen family will have a role to play in bringing justice to humanity along with the Dawoodi Messiah, as Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has designated the Qurba of Mohammad (saw) as a path towards him that he wants us to take (42:23, 25:57).

 

It also seems none of the Imams that followed Hussain could be the end stop as the Mahdi except the 12th Imam and wouldn't be born with a disconnect to the Imams because that is not how chosen families are described per Quran.

 

I therefore escape the circular reasoning by relying on this sort of thinking.

Edited April 6, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[amirhosein_88]

Salam

 

The way I go about it, is that mainly verses in Quran such as 42:23 and 25:57 make believe there is a chosen family.  Then there is historical events that can't be denied like the event of mubihla and the ghadeer declaration. This forms a belief in chosen families. Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain seem to the be only ones who fit the in the category of the chosen family of Mohammad during his time based on historical events like mubahila. 

 

Muslims seem to have a mutuwatir declaration of the Mahdi as well.  The Mahdi is also a logical belief if you believe a member of the chosen family will have a role to play in bringing justice to humanity along with the Dawoodi Messiah, as Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has designated the Qurba of Mohammad (saw) as a path towards him that he wants us to take (42:23, 25:57).

 

It also seems none of the Imams that followed Hussain could be the end stop as the Mahdi except the 12th Imam and wouldn't be born with a disconnect to the Imams because that is not how chosen families are described per Quran.

 

I therefore escape the circular reasoning by relying on this sort of thinking.

Salamun alaykum. With due respect, I believe this sort of thinking leads to the same circular reasoning from which you are supposed to refrain. You have mentioned the events of mubahala and Ghadir. How come you believe that such events occurred at all? Is there any way except the narrations in books of hadith and history? Thus, you must rely on such books in the first place. If you can not rely on system of ilm al-rijal (based on Shia views) then you can not rely on any history book too. The same is true about Mahdi and other issues.

I believe that when we, through rational reasoning, believe in Holy Prophet and Noble Quran then we must abide by the Verses and his traditions through which we establish the Imamate of our Imams and other articles of faith. Now, to find authentic Prophetic narrations, system of 'ilm l-rijal is an absolutely logical and reasonable method.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salamun alaykum. With due respect, I believe this sort of thinking leads to the same circular reasoning from which you are supposed to refrain. You have mentioned the events of mubahala and Ghadir. How come you believe that such events occurred at all? Is there any way except the narrations in books of hadith and history? Thus, you must rely on such books in the first place. If you can not rely on system of ilm al-rijal (based on Shia views) then you can not rely on any history book too. The same is true about Mahdi and other issues.

I believe that when we, through rational reasoning, believe in Holy Prophet and Noble Quran then we must abide by the Verses and his traditions through which we establish the Imamate of our Imams and other articles of faith. Now, to find authentic Prophetic narrations, system of 'ilm l-rijal is an absolutely logical and reasonable method.

Salam

 

I don't think historical events that can't be doubted can be put in the same place as other hadiths though. These agreed upon history and is not disputed by any sect.  I think working from there is more of evidence. 

 

Besides, we can look at the verses 42:23 and 25:57 and conclude some chosen people must have been manifested during the time of the Prophet.  These being the only people possible for such designation, leaves it us with no doubt they been designated.

 

Also another thing I didn't mention, is that we can appeal to logic, that since Prophethood ended, and would not want us to be confused about sects after him after the passing away of the Imams, he would give us their number.

 

The only number given in hadiths is 12.  Therefore again, we can conclude on this by non-circular reasoning.

Edited April 7, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[amirhosein_88]

Salam

 

I don't think historical events that can't be doubted can be put in the same place as other hadiths though. These agreed upon history and is not disputed by any sect.  I think working from there is more of evidence. 

 

Besides, we can look at the verses 42:23 and 25:57 and conclude some chosen people must have been manifested during the time of the Prophet.  These being the only people possible for such designation, leaves it us with no doubt they been designated.

 

Also another thing I didn't mention, is that we can appeal to logic, that since Prophethood ended, and would not want us to be confused about sects after him after the passing away of the Imams, he would give us their number.

 

The only number given in hadiths is 12.  Therefore again, we can conclude on this by non-circular reasoning.

Salamun alaykum.

1. When you do not rely on narrators (of history or hadith) then there is no difference between famous historical events and other narrations.

2. Those 2 Verses only prove the necessity of love for Qurba. So, firstly, it has nothing to do with Imamate and secondly, in order for you to clarify who are meant by Qurba you have to refer to the same narrations. Circular reasoning!

3. The hadith on number 12 is a hadith as well.

So, all in all, at the end of the day, you must refer to the collections of hadith and, based on rulings mentioned in 'ilm al-rijal, find the authentic ones.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

 

As far as I am aware of, we (shias) don't have mutuwatir hadiths about the  ghadeer declaration from the Prophet (saw).  What I mean by that is chains going back to the Prophet.  But we don't doubt the event even though it's not our books that have recorded it in a muwatir fashion.

 

I don't think an authentic hadith holds the same weight as an event like the ghadeer declaration.

 

As for regards to 42:23 and 25:57.  The Quran talks about Prophets. When we think about Prophets, we don't think they can be normal people, because we know these people have been chosen to take on a role of significance.

 

These verses are no different. Whoever al-qubra are, the Quran has designated them as a path towards him. It has also made the wage of the message, the way to show appreciation to receiving the message, to be their love.

 

Now what is meant by love? When I say "I love a this hockey team", it's different then to when I say "i love my parents" or "I love my wife". Love always takes meaning to what the object love is expected to have.

 

Now in this case, the love results in one taking a path to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.   Therefore it's not simply love like how we love one another, but takes on a form higher then that.

 

The Talut verses in Quran also mention that the chosen ones have authority over rest.  As they been chosen for this role, they also have Wilayah, by virtue of their characteristics.

 

IT can also be mentioned, that God could've said to love the Prophet or the Prophets. The reason Al-Qurba have been chosen to show appreciation to the message and the path God wants humanity to take, is because they carry on Wilayah of the Rasool and carry on his message, light and example.  They hold the way to appreciate the message which shows they are the carriers of the message.

 

The only question is who were they. Again, it makes sense the Rasool (saw) will show us who they are. The manifestation of who they are, their number, etc, only has 1 recording.

 

Again, it's by logic I deduce the Messenger (saw) will show us who they are. Not by hadiths. It's by hadiths that I see there has only been one Al-Qurba manifested during the time of the Prophet (Saw). It's the same with the 12 Imams. I didn't conclude he must have manifested due to the 12 successors/Imams hadiths. I said it makes sense he would've manifested it and there is only one manifestation in the hadiths.

Edited April 8, 2014 by StrugglingForTheLight

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

 

I also would add as obeying them is part of the loved owed to them in the same way obeying God and his Messenger is part of the love owed to them.  The reason they been made the way to appreciate the message is because they carriy on the role of implementing the message and establishing justice through Wilayah of God via his chosen ones.  Verse 42:23 is no joke.

 

One thing that I noticed is that Mohammad (saw) toke on the role of a Messenger for 23 years. This is the 23rd verse in the Surah.  And the 23rd night of Ramadan is suppose to be laylatal Qadr when he first received the message. Is this all coincidence? I don't know.

[InfiniteAscension]

(wasalam)

 

Whilst it is undoubtedly vital not to neglect shi'ah sources, it is also very worthwhile to have your beliefs corroborated by sources in other schools of thought. The certainty one achieves in a particular topic when it has been mentioned in sources of different schools of thought is greater and this of course has many reasons that are discussed in usul al fiqh and ilm al diraya and in particular the works of al shaheed al sadr.

 

As regards to the question whether the belief in the Imams results in some form of circular logic; namely we believe the in the Imams as a result of the hadiths, and we believe in those hadiths because of the Imams, then this only stands if indeed we believe in the hadiths that present the idea of 12 Imams from the Imams themselves. This, in my limited understanding, does not occur nor have scholars (in my limited readings) use such reasoning to prove the shi'ite creed on imamate and succession. It is only once we ascertain in some way that Imamate has been declared by the Prophet (s) can we then present the sayings of the Imams as proof for us. 

As for the issue of shias having mutawaatir ahadith on the occasion of Ghadeer, we can say two things:
Firstly, the condition of the occurrence of tawatur does not necessitate it being present in a shi'i books specifically, or sunni books specifically. The standard definition for tawatur (ignoring the detailed discussions in this regard) is that a hadith is considered mutawaatir if it is narrated by a number such that it is impossible that they have all colluded on a lie and by virtue of such a condition, it grants us certainty that the hadith is true. This number is not stagnant; i.e in one hadith it may require a large number before we are sure there is no collusion on a lie, whilst in another hadith we may only require a smaller number. So if any narration is present regarding ghadeer in a shi'i book, it is added henceforth to the narrations narrated in sunni books, to strengthen the tawatur that has occurred. As such, narrations in this regard are not looked at in isolation as to whether it is a sunni narrating it or a shi'i narrating it. Rather the unity of the subject means that all narrations are gathered and we try to observe whether tawatur has been reached or not.
Secondly, the issue of ghadeer khum has been narrated about in shia'h books too but as mentioned before, the importance is to the truth of a narration or in this case - its ability to help us ascertain tawatur - and not necessarily its presence in a particular school of thought's books. 

 

I do think StrugglingforLight raises a very important point. The Quran must give the overall view of such important beliefs and then it is for the Prophet (s) to show the manifestations of particular verses. The most famous example of such a case comes in ayat al-tathir, whereby the Prophet (s) gathers them under his cloak and says "These are my ahlul-bayt" which is a clear designation as to whom that part of the verse intends. This was also an extremely important act as it has been argued that the context of the verses clearly intend the wives of the Prophet (s) and from the actions of the Prophet we can know that they were clearly not intended.