Why Did You Reject Abu Jafar Muhammad ?

[IQRA07]

He was the brother of Askari (as) and he claimed the Imamate. As a matter of fact so did Jafar whom you call the liar. Why did you guys not accept either of them as 12th Imam ? They were both Ahl ul Bayt

[Qa'im]

Because the Imamate will not be given to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn.

 

 

 

From Kamal ad-Deen:

 

حدثنا أبي ، ومحمد بن الحسن رضي الله عنهما قالا : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفر الحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن عن الحسين بن ثوير أبي فاختة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال : لا تكون الإمامة ( 1 ) في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين عليهم السلام أبدا ، إنها جرت ( 2 ) من علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام كما قال الله جل جلاله : " وأولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله " ( 3 ) ولا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين إلا في الأعقاب وأعقاب الأعقاب

 

My father and Muhammad b. al-Hasan رضي الله عنهما narrated. They said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd from Yunus b. `Abd ar-Rahman from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never go to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn عليهم السلام. It has proceeded from `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام just as Allah جل جلاله says, “Some of those who are bound by blood are closer [to each other] than others in the Book of Allah” (8:75). After `Ali b. al-Husayn, it will not go to anyone except a descendent and a descendent of a descendent.

 

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفرالحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب ، ومحمد بن عيسى بن عبيد جميعا ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي نجران ، عن عيسى بن عبد الله العلوي العمري ( 3 ) ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عليهما السلام قال : قلت له : جعلت فداك إن كان كون - ولا أراني الله يومك - فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : فأومأ إلى موسى عليه السلام ، قلت : فإن مضى موسى عليه السلام فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، قلت : فإن مضى ولده وترك أخا كبيرا وابنا صغيرا فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، ثم هكذا أبدا ، قلت : فإن أنا لم أعرفه ولم أعرف موضعه فما أصنع ؟ قال : تقول : " اللهم إني أتولي من بقي من حججك من ولد الامام الماضي فإن ذلك يجزئك ( 1 ) .

 

My father رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abu’l Khattab and Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd together from `Abd ar-Rahmn b. Abi Najran from `Isa b. `Abdillah al-`Alawi al-`Umari from Abu `Abdillah Ja`far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq عليهما السلام.

 

He said: I said to him: May I be your ransom, if it were to occur – and may Allah spare us from seeing your day – then to whom will it (i.e. the Imamate) go to? He said: So he pointed to Musa عليه السلام. I said: So when Musa عليه السلام passes away, to whom will it go to? He said: To his son. I said: And if his son passes away, and he leaves behind a grown brother and young boys, then to whom will it go to? He said: To his son, and so on forever. I said: So what if I do not know who [the Imam is] and I do not know his place, what should I do? He said: You say, “Allahumma, I pledge allegiance to he who remains from your Proofs from the loins of the Imam who has passed away” – that would be sufficient.

 

 

 

From Qurb al-Isnad:

 

الحسن بن ظريف، عن أبيه ظريف بن ناصح قال: كنت مع الحسين بن زيد ومعه ابنه علي، إذ مر بنا ابو الحسن موسى بن جعفر صلى الله عليه فسلم عليه ثم جاز فقلت: جعلت فداك، يعرف موسى قائم آل محمد؟ قال: فقال لي: إن يكن أحد يعرفه فهو. ثم قال: وكيف لا يعرفه وعنده خط علي بن أبي طالب صلى الله عليه وإملاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله. فقال: علي ابنه: يا أبه كيف لم يكن ذاك عند أبي زيد بن علي؟ فقال: يا بني، إن علي بن الحسين ومحمد بن علي سيدا الناس وإمامهم، فلزم يا بني اباك زيد أخاه فتأدب بأدبه وتفقه بفقهه. قال: فقلت: فاريه يا أبه إن حدث بموسى حدث يوصى إلى أحد من أخوته؟ قال: لا والله ما يوصي إلا إلى ابنه، أما ترى - أي بني - هؤلاء الخلفاء لا يجعلون الخلافة إلا في أولادهم

                                                                                                                                         

al-Hasan b. Thareef from his father Thareef b. Nasih.

 

He said: I was with al-Husayn b. Zayd and with him was his son `Ali when Abu’l Hasan Musa b. Ja`far صلى الله عليه passed by us, so he greeted him and carried on. So I said: May I be your ransom, does Musa know (or, recognize) the Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad? He said: So he said to me: If anyone were to recognize him, it would be him. He then said: And how is it that he would not recognize him when he has the writing of `Ali b. Abi Talib صلى الله عليه and the dictations of the Prophet (pbuh) So his son `Ali said: O my father, why was that not with my forefather Zayd b. `Ali? So he said: O my son, verily `Ali b. al-Husayn and Muhammad b. `Ali are the masers of the people and their Imams, so, my son, your forefather Zayd adhered to his brother, and was mannered by his etiquette and was trained by his fiqh.

He said: So I said: So, my father, if something were to happen to Musa, would he depute one from his brothers? He said: No, by Allah, he will not depute anyone except his son. Have you not seen – O my son – that these successors (al-khulafa’) do not make their succession (al-khilafa) go to other than their children? (Qurb al-Isnad)

 

 

 

From al-Kafi:

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن الحسين بن ثوير بن أبي فاختة، عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لا تعود الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين أبدا، إنما جرت من علي بن الحسين كما قال الله تبارك وتعالى: " واولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله (1) " فلا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين عليه السلام إلا في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr b. Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn. It has continued from `Ali b. al-Husayn just as Allah تبارك وتعال said, “And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah…” (33:6). After `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام, it will not be except in the descendants and the descendants of descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 745)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن إسماعيل بن بزيع، عن أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام أنه سئل أتكون الامامة في عم أو خال؟ فقال: لا، فقلت: ففي أخ؟ قال: لا، قلت: ففي من؟ قال: في ولدي، وهو يومئذ لا ولد له.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazee` from Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام that he was asked if the Imamate can go to a paternal or maternal uncle. So he said: No. So I said: Then to a brother?  He said: No. I said: Then to whom? He said: To my son. And he, on that day, did not have any sons. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 747)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عبد الرحمن بن ابي نجران، عن سليمان بن جفعر الجعفري، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: لا تجتمع الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين إنما هي في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Sulayman b. Ja`far al-Ja`fari from Hamad b. `Isa from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام that he had said: The Imamate will not be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn, rather it is in the descendants and the descendants of the descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 748)

Edited April 5, 2014 by Qa'im

[Khadim uz Zahra]

Apart from the excellent aHadith Qa'im just mentioned, their being Ahlulbayt doesn't prove anything. That is just one of the conditions. So, unless you have actual proof of them being selected by the Imam before them, which is the ultimate condition, your objection doesn't have any ground to stand on.

[Muhammad Taha]

(bismillah)

Dear brother,

According to Ahadith, the name of Ahl al-Bayt are specified by Holy Prophet. I will mention just two Hadiths that are related to your question:

 

 

1- The Prophet himself has clarified what he meant by his Ahl al-Bayt or al-Itrah (part. 1)

 

This is reflected in the following hadith found in major Sunni sources:

Muslim narrates from Ayishah:

The Prophet went out wearing a black woolen cloak, when Hasan the son of Ali, came to him, so the Prophet let Hasan come in with him under the cloak. Then Husayn came and he too entered. Then Fatimah came. She entered as well.Then Ali came. He also went under the cloak, such that the cloak covered the Prophet, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn. then the Prophet recited: 'God only desires to keep away impurity from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a [thorough] purification.' (33:33)

(Sahih of Muslim, Vol. 4, p.1883, no. 2424. (Kitab Fadail al-sahabah, Bab Fadail Ahl al-bayt, Sakhr serial no. 4450)

 

 

2- According to this Hadith, Just 12 Imams are considered as Ahl al-Bayt:

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ التَّلَّعُكْبَرِيِّ عَنْ عِيسَى بْنِ مُوسَى الْهَاشِمِيِّ بِسُرَّمَنْ‏رَأَى قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَلِيٍّ ع قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص فِي بَيْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ وَ قَدْ نَزَلَتْ عَلَيْهِ هَذِهِ الْآيَةُ- إِنَّما يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَ يُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً (33:33) فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص يَا عَلِيُّ هَذِهِ الْآيَةُ نَزَلَتْ فِيكَ وَ فِي سِبْطَيَّ وَ الْأَئِمَّةِ مِنْ وُلْدِكَ قُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَ كَمِ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَكَ قَالَ أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ ثُمَّ ابْنَاكَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ وَ بَعْدَ الْحُسَيْنِ عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ جَعْفَرٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ جَعْفَرٍ مُوسَى ابْنُهُ‏ وَ بَعْدَ مُوسَى عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ الْحَسَنُ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ الْحَسَنِ ابْنُهُ الْحُجَّةُ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ هَكَذَا وَجَدْتُ أَسَامِيَهُمْ مَكْتُوبَةً عَلَى سَاقِ الْعَرْشِ فَسَأَلْتُ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ عَنْ ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ هُمُ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَكَ مُطَهَّرُونَ مَعْصُومُونَ وَ أَعْدَاؤُهُمْ مَلْعُونُونَ‏.

Bihar al_anwar,Vol. 36, p.337, No.199

 

 

 

[The Green Knight]

They were both Ahl ul Bayt

 

I am from the lineage of Imam Musa Kadhim (as), therefore, to you, by your own principle, I am Ahl ul Bayt. Now send me a million dollars and swear an oath of allegiance or burn forever.~

[Lordofgemini]

I am from the lineage of Imam Musa Kadhim (as), therefore, to you, by your own principle, I am Ahl ul Bayt. Now send me a million dollars and swear an oath of allegiance or burn forever.~

Can I claim Imamat too then, its millions of dollars after all  :shifty:

[Khadim uz Zahra]

Can I claim Imamat too then, its millions of dollars after all  :shifty:

 

More like billions.

[Chaotic Muslem]

He was the brother of Askari (as) and he claimed the Imamate. As a matter of fact so did Jafar whom you call the liar. Why did you guys not accept either of them as 12th Imam ? They were both Ahl ul Bayt

Brother, in the book you shared in another link, this was written

Say: Regarding knowledge:

It is necessary for him to be knowledgeable of the Divine Oneness of Allahand worship of Him; as well as what comes subsequent to that. He has to be knowledgeable of the sourcesof Islamic Law (ash-Shari‘a), as well as its proofs. These [i.e. the sources] are four: the Book, the Sunnah,Consensus, and Analogical Reasoning (al-Qiyās). What is meant by that is that one has a thorough understanding of the commands and prohibitions of the Qur‟ān and Sunnah; as well as their generalities,specificities, applications, expositions, what abrogates, and what is abrogated

 

It is believed by Shia that Ahlulbayt are the equals of Quran, they are the speaking Quran, thus as the Quran has general statements and specific statements so do the Sunah and the words of Ahlulbayt.

It is true that there are hadiths that state that the Khulafa after prophet will be from Quraish, but then there are more specific ahdiths that say that khulafa will be from Bani Hashim, then others saying that they will be from descendants of Imam Ali then there are which say that they will be from sons of Fatimah (not from children of the other wives of Imam Ali) then there are which say that they will be from descendants of Hussain. 

 

 

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/beliefs/ahl-ul-bayt/12_imam_mahdi/15_those_who_prophesied_the_reappearance_of_the_imam_of_the_time_(a.s).htm

http://www.almujtaba.com/books/ahlulbayt/imammahdi/28.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/twelve-successors-holy-prophet-sayyid-murtada-al-askari/twelve-imams-according-school-caliphate

http://www.al-islam.org/imam-hasan-bin-ali-al-balagh/publishers-word

Edited April 5, 2014 by Chaotic Muslem

[IQRA07]

Apart from the excellent aHadith Qa'im just mentioned, their being Ahlulbayt doesn't prove anything. That is just one of the conditions. So, unless you have actual proof of them being selected by the Imam before them, which is the ultimate condition, your objection doesn't have any ground to stand on.

What objection ? I'm not a 12er so I don't care. I'm just curious.

LOL

I am from the lineage of Imam Musa Kadhim (as), therefore, to you, by your own principle, I am Ahl ul Bayt. Now send me a million dollars and swear an oath of allegiance or burn forever.~

LOL !

 

(bismillah)

Dear brother,

According to Ahadith, the name of Ahl al-Bayt are specified by Holy Prophet. I will mention just two Hadiths that are related to your question:

 

 

1- The Prophet himself has clarified what he meant by his Ahl al-Bayt or al-Itrah (part. 1)

 

This is reflected in the following hadith found in major Sunni sources:

Muslim narrates from Ayishah:

The Prophet went out wearing a black woolen cloak, when Hasan the son of Ali, came to him, so the Prophet let Hasan come in with him under the cloak. Then Husayn came and he too entered. Then Fatimah came. She entered as well.Then Ali came. He also went under the cloak, such that the cloak covered the Prophet, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn. then the Prophet recited: 'God only desires to keep away impurity from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a [thorough] purification.' (33:33)

(Sahih of Muslim, Vol. 4, p.1883, no. 2424. (Kitab Fadail al-sahabah, Bab Fadail Ahl al-bayt, Sakhr serial no. 4450)

 

 

2- According to this Hadith, Just 12 Imams are considered as Ahl al-Bayt:

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ التَّلَّعُكْبَرِيِّ عَنْ عِيسَى بْنِ مُوسَى الْهَاشِمِيِّ بِسُرَّمَنْ‏رَأَى قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَلِيٍّ ع قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص فِي بَيْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ وَ قَدْ نَزَلَتْ عَلَيْهِ هَذِهِ الْآيَةُ- إِنَّما يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَ يُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً (33:33) فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص يَا عَلِيُّ هَذِهِ الْآيَةُ نَزَلَتْ فِيكَ وَ فِي سِبْطَيَّ وَ الْأَئِمَّةِ مِنْ وُلْدِكَ قُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَ كَمِ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَكَ قَالَ أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ ثُمَّ ابْنَاكَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ وَ بَعْدَ الْحُسَيْنِ عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ جَعْفَرٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ جَعْفَرٍ مُوسَى ابْنُهُ‏ وَ بَعْدَ مُوسَى عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ عَلِيٍّ الْحَسَنُ ابْنُهُ وَ بَعْدَ الْحَسَنِ ابْنُهُ الْحُجَّةُ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ هَكَذَا وَجَدْتُ أَسَامِيَهُمْ مَكْتُوبَةً عَلَى سَاقِ الْعَرْشِ فَسَأَلْتُ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ عَنْ ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ هُمُ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَكَ مُطَهَّرُونَ مَعْصُومُونَ وَ أَعْدَاؤُهُمْ مَلْعُونُونَ‏.

Bihar al_anwar,Vol. 36, p.337, No.199

 

 

 

 

A Shia citing a narration by ayesha ?

LOL !

That's a new one

[Ethics]

What objection ? I'm not a 12er so I don't care. I'm just curious.

LOL

LOL !

A Shia citing a narration by ayesha ?

LOL !

That's a new one

 

 

Brother it says sunni hadith on it :lol: read carefully.

[IQRA07]

Apart from the excellent aHadith Qa'im just mentioned, their being Ahlulbayt doesn't prove anything. That is just one of the conditions. So, unless you have actual proof of them being selected by the Imam before them, which is the ultimate condition, your objection doesn't have any ground to stand on.

Selected by the Imam before them ?

That makes no sense. 12ers keep telling me that ALLA designated the Imams so why would the previous Imam need to designate ?

Brother it says sunni hadith on it :lol: read carefully.

I read. 12ers don't usually cite Sunni hadith unless they are trying to prove something to a Sunni.

I'm not a Sunni and I'm not asking for proof. I don't like ayesha any more than you guys so it was just funny to see her cited through sahih muslim on a Shia page

[Ethics]

Selected by the Imam before them ?

That makes no sense. 12ers keep telling me that ALLA designated the Imams so why would the previous Imam need to designate ?

 

Simple logic. Muhammad A.S only acts by the will of Allah, therefore when he chose Ali A.S, Allah wanted him to be His representative thus logic dictates Allah's representatives all act in accordance to Allah's will, thus every designation is by the command of Allah. Hence, they ARE Allah's representatives and not a being who self proclaims they are "supposedly" a divinely chosen representative just by their questionable word.

[IQRA07]

Because the Imamate will not be given to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn.

 

 

 

From Kamal ad-Deen:

 

حدثنا أبي ، ومحمد بن الحسن رضي الله عنهما قالا : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفر الحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن عن الحسين بن ثوير أبي فاختة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال : لا تكون الإمامة ( 1 ) في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين عليهم السلام أبدا ، إنها جرت ( 2 ) من علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام كما قال الله جل جلاله : " وأولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله " ( 3 ) ولا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين إلا في الأعقاب وأعقاب الأعقاب

 

My father and Muhammad b. al-Hasan رضي الله عنهما narrated. They said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd from Yunus b. `Abd ar-Rahman from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never go to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn عليهم السلام. It has proceeded from `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام just as Allah جل جلاله says, “Some of those who are bound by blood are closer [to each other] than others in the Book of Allah” (8:75). After `Ali b. al-Husayn, it will not go to anyone except a descendent and a descendent of a descendent.

 

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفرالحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب ، ومحمد بن عيسى بن عبيد جميعا ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي نجران ، عن عيسى بن عبد الله العلوي العمري ( 3 ) ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عليهما السلام قال : قلت له : جعلت فداك إن كان كون - ولا أراني الله يومك - فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : فأومأ إلى موسى عليه السلام ، قلت : فإن مضى موسى عليه السلام فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، قلت : فإن مضى ولده وترك أخا كبيرا وابنا صغيرا فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، ثم هكذا أبدا ، قلت : فإن أنا لم أعرفه ولم أعرف موضعه فما أصنع ؟ قال : تقول : " اللهم إني أتولي من بقي من حججك من ولد الامام الماضي فإن ذلك يجزئك ( 1 ) .

 

My father رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abu’l Khattab and Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd together from `Abd ar-Rahmn b. Abi Najran from `Isa b. `Abdillah al-`Alawi al-`Umari from Abu `Abdillah Ja`far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq عليهما السلام.

 

He said: I said to him: May I be your ransom, if it were to occur – and may Allah spare us from seeing your day – then to whom will it (i.e. the Imamate) go to? He said: So he pointed to Musa عليه السلام. I said: So when Musa عليه السلام passes away, to whom will it go to? He said: To his son. I said: And if his son passes away, and he leaves behind a grown brother and young boys, then to whom will it go to? He said: To his son, and so on forever. I said: So what if I do not know who [the Imam is] and I do not know his place, what should I do? He said: You say, “Allahumma, I pledge allegiance to he who remains from your Proofs from the loins of the Imam who has passed away” – that would be sufficient.

 

 

 

From Qurb al-Isnad:

 

الحسن بن ظريف، عن أبيه ظريف بن ناصح قال: كنت مع الحسين بن زيد ومعه ابنه علي، إذ مر بنا ابو الحسن موسى بن جعفر صلى الله عليه فسلم عليه ثم جاز فقلت: جعلت فداك، يعرف موسى قائم آل محمد؟ قال: فقال لي: إن يكن أحد يعرفه فهو. ثم قال: وكيف لا يعرفه وعنده خط علي بن أبي طالب صلى الله عليه وإملاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله. فقال: علي ابنه: يا أبه كيف لم يكن ذاك عند أبي زيد بن علي؟ فقال: يا بني، إن علي بن الحسين ومحمد بن علي سيدا الناس وإمامهم، فلزم يا بني اباك زيد أخاه فتأدب بأدبه وتفقه بفقهه. قال: فقلت: فاريه يا أبه إن حدث بموسى حدث يوصى إلى أحد من أخوته؟ قال: لا والله ما يوصي إلا إلى ابنه، أما ترى - أي بني - هؤلاء الخلفاء لا يجعلون الخلافة إلا في أولادهم

                                                                                                                                         

al-Hasan b. Thareef from his father Thareef b. Nasih.

 

He said: I was with al-Husayn b. Zayd and with him was his son `Ali when Abu’l Hasan Musa b. Ja`far صلى الله عليه passed by us, so he greeted him and carried on. So I said: May I be your ransom, does Musa know (or, recognize) the Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad? He said: So he said to me: If anyone were to recognize him, it would be him. He then said: And how is it that he would not recognize him when he has the writing of `Ali b. Abi Talib صلى الله عليه and the dictations of the Prophet (pbuh) So his son `Ali said: O my father, why was that not with my forefather Zayd b. `Ali? So he said: O my son, verily `Ali b. al-Husayn and Muhammad b. `Ali are the masers of the people and their Imams, so, my son, your forefather Zayd adhered to his brother, and was mannered by his etiquette and was trained by his fiqh.

He said: So I said: So, my father, if something were to happen to Musa, would he depute one from his brothers? He said: No, by Allah, he will not depute anyone except his son. Have you not seen – O my son – that these successors (al-khulafa’) do not make their succession (al-khilafa) go to other than their children? (Qurb al-Isnad)

 

 

 

From al-Kafi:

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن الحسين بن ثوير بن أبي فاختة، عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لا تعود الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين أبدا، إنما جرت من علي بن الحسين كما قال الله تبارك وتعالى: " واولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله (1) " فلا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين عليه السلام إلا في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr b. Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn. It has continued from `Ali b. al-Husayn just as Allah تبارك وتعال said, “And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah…” (33:6). After `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام, it will not be except in the descendants and the descendants of descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 745)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن إسماعيل بن بزيع، عن أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام أنه سئل أتكون الامامة في عم أو خال؟ فقال: لا، فقلت: ففي أخ؟ قال: لا، قلت: ففي من؟ قال: في ولدي، وهو يومئذ لا ولد له.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazee` from Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام that he was asked if the Imamate can go to a paternal or maternal uncle. So he said: No. So I said: Then to a brother?  He said: No. I said: Then to whom? He said: To my son. And he, on that day, did not have any sons. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 747)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عبد الرحمن بن ابي نجران، عن سليمان بن جفعر الجعفري، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: لا تجتمع الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين إنما هي في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Sulayman b. Ja`far al-Ja`fari from Hamad b. `Isa from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام that he had said: The Imamate will not be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn, rather it is in the descendants and the descendants of the descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 748)

 

But

A. wouldn't the brothers who claimed the Imamate have known about this ? If so why did they try to claim it anyway ?

B. I don't see where you cited any Imams saying this........

Are you sure the Shia at the time didn't just object because they didn't like him for some reason ?

 

I don't have a stake in this . I'm really just curious why out of 3 possible Imams you guys chose the hidden one

Simple logic. Muhammad A.S only acts by the will of Allah, therefore when he chose Ali A.S, Allah wanted him to be His representative thus logic dictates Allah's representatives all act in accordance to Allah's will, thus every designation is by the command of Allah. Hence, they ARE Allah's representatives and not a being who self proclaims they are "supposedly" a divinely chosen representative just by their questionable word.

So if Allah had chosen them then why did they need to be designated by the Imam ?

I mean it's not like the previous Imam proclaimed to the public who his successor would be. So would he designate ? Besides I thought the names were already fixed as stated before in one of those 12 khalifas hadiths you guys told me was sahih.........

 

But never mind all of that. I am happy just to get an answer to the question I was asking which is about why the brothers were rejected

[Ethics]

Selected by the Imam before them ?

That makes no sense. 12ers keep telling me that ALLA designated the Imams so why would the previous Imam need to designate ?

I read. 12ers don't usually cite Sunni hadith unless they are trying to prove something to a Sunni.

I'm not a Sunni and I'm not asking for proof. I don't like ayesha any more than you guys so it was just funny to see her cited through sahih muslim on a Shia page

Therefore the Zaydis to this day and originally the Fatamids, use the Hanafi jurisprudence, as do most Sunnis.^[6][7][8]

Brother with due respect, your imam zaid loved the caliphs and aisha. You can come up with any excuse you want but in your hadiths its clear. Its surprising that you would go against your imam o_O....

So if Allah had chosen them then why did they need to be designated by the Imam ?

I mean it's not like the previous Imam proclaimed to the public who his successor would be. So would he designate ? Besides I thought the names were already fixed as stated before in one of those 12 khalifas hadiths you guys told me was sahih.........

 

But never mind all of that. I am happy just to get an answer to the question I was asking which is about why the brothers were rejected

 

You ask a question, ill answer. No Problem :) . What do you mean why do they need to be designated? So the followers of Allah's religion knows who the imam of their time is.  Oh boy, here comes this STUPID childish argument again. What is public huh? Can you please define it? Where in the quran does it say one must proclaim to the public? If so, prove to me why you follow prophets when there is no proof they proclaimed their prophet-hood. Dont being up the quran excuse for hadith are also divinely chosen words due to Muhammad A.S. But it doesnt matter, for their are chains and chains of hadith mentioning the successor of each imam and your going to tell me none of their followers knew or spread the word? How do you explain the number of their followers to this day and age, if they never proclaimed their imamate. This argument is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard and its getting quite old on this site.

 

Its really ignorant for you to say such a thing for you follow our first 4 imams as well, unless your lying and really not a shia. The argument goes right back to you and the fact that I already gave you such a argument to prove to me each of your imams specifically stated they were imams and who their next successor would be (to the public) and you didnt give me one single hadith shows your own incapacity. Its honestly funny because the only thing you brought was the Naghul Balagha and that was compiled by a shia imami. We have COUNTLESS hadiths on all these specific topics.. Just check out Al-Kafi for the start.

Edited April 6, 2014 by PureEthics

[Chaotic Muslem]

shame..~

Muslims mocking their own religion. salam.

[Qa'im]

But

A. wouldn't the brothers who claimed the Imamate have known about this ? If so why did they try to claim it anyway ?

B. I don't see where you cited any Imams saying this........

Are you sure the Shia at the time didn't just object because they didn't like him for some reason ?

 

I don't have a stake in this . I'm really just curious why out of 3 possible Imams you guys chose the hidden one

 

a ) It is possible that Ja`far al-Kadhab was trying to capitalize on those who were not familiar with the narrations I posted. There are moneyed interests at hand. But either way, according to one of our narrations, Ja`far al-Kadhab eventually repented and recognized the 12th Imam.

 

b ) Five of the hadiths in post #2 go back to the Imams: four to Ja`far as-Sadiq, and one to `Ali ar-Rida.

 

The Imamate does not go to two brothers after al-Hasan (as) and al-Husayn (as). This doctrine is sound, because it is supported by many reliable hadiths, not counting the hadiths where the Imams name their successors.

 

We chose the Hidden Imam after al-`Askari (as) because an Imam with a hidden birth was foretold and expected.

[CaLiFoRniA]

There were many who accepted their Imāmate. Those followers of Ḥasan al-`Askarī who believed he had a child were relatively few. Only later do traditions emerge that claim his birth was prophesied, that he went into ghayba, and that he is the Qā'im. Early on though, the views of the community could be broadly described as such:

 

- Those that believe Ḥasan al-`Askarī is dead and that Imāmate has ended.

- Those that believe Ḥasan al-`Askarī is dead and that they do not know the next imām.

- Those that believe Ḥasan al-`Askarī is alive and that he is the Qā'im.

- Those that believe Ḥasan al-`Askarī had a child and that he is the Qā'im.

- Those that believe the brother of al-`Askarī, Ja`far b. `Alī, is the imām after him.

- Those that believe the brother of al-`Askarī, Muḥammad b. `Alī, was the imām [not Ḥasan] and therefore the Qā'im.

 

It should also be noted that among those who believed al-`Askarī had a child, at least some did not believe him to be the Qā'im [but simply an imām, who would either himself return from ghayba or an imām from his progeny].

Edited April 6, 2014 by Krusty the Clown

[Qa'im]

Only later do traditions emerge that claim his birth was prophesied, that he went into ghayba, and that he is the Qā'im. Early on though, the views of the community could be broadly described as such:

 

I did a quick search for the word “birth” (ولادة) in Kamal ad-Deen, al-Kafi, and Nu`mani, and I found dozens of other traditions that explicitly state that the Mahdi’s birth would be secret, discrete, hidden, or doubted. Therefore, this birth is one of the most sahih and mutawatir characteristics of the Mahdi. It is actually quite difficult to find another characteristic that is as specific and as well-supported as this one.

 

Here's a few:

 

أبي، عن سعد، عن الخشاب، عن العباس بن عامر قال: سمعت أبا الحسن موسى (ع) يقول صاحب هذا الامر يقول الناس لم يولد بعد.

 

My father from Sa`d from al-Khashab from al-`Abbas b. `Amer.

 

He said: I heard Abu’l Hasan Musa عليه السلام say: People will say, ”the Patron of this Affair has not been born yet”. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

الهمداني، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن زياد الازدي، عن موسى بن جعفر (ع) أنه قال عند ذكر القائم (ع): يخفى على الناس ولادته ولا يحل لهم تسميته حتى يظهره الله(عزوجل) فيملا به الارض قسطا وعدلا كما ملئت جورا وظلما.

 

al-Hamadani from `Ali from his father from Muhammad b. Ziyad al-Azidi from Musa b. Ja`far عليه السلام.

 

He said at the mentioning of the Qa’im عليه السلام: His birth will be hidden from the people, and it is not permissible for them to reveal his name until Allah عز و جل makes him appear and fill equity and justice into the world, as it would have been fraught with injustice and oppression. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

عدة من أصحابنا، عن سعد بن عبدالله، عن أيوب بن نوح قال: قلت لابي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام): إني أرجو أن تكون صاحب هذا الامر، وأن يسوقه الله إليك بغير سيف، فقد بويع لك وضربت الدراهم باسمك، فقال: ما منا أحد اختلفت إليه الكتب، واشير إليه بالاصابع، وسئل عن المسائل، وحملت إليه الاموال، إلا اغتيل أو مات على فراشه، حتى يبعث الله لهذا الامر غلاما منا، خفي الولادة والمنشأ، غير خفي في نسبه.

 

 

A number of our companions from Sa`d b. Abdillah from Ayyub b. Nuh.

 

He said: I said to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام: I hope that you are the Patron of this Affair and that Allah makes it easy for you without [the need of] a sword, as the people have vowed their allegiance to you and the dirhams have been put in your name. He said:  The books have not differed regarding anyone from us, and we are pointed at by fingers, asked questions, and the money is gathered for us until we are assassinated or die on our beds; until Allah sends for this affair a young man from us, secretly given birth to and raised discretely, but not unknown in his lineage. (al-Kafi)

 

(mursal kal-sahih) (مرسل كالصحيح)

 

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار ، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن سعيد بن غزوان ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال : صاحب هذا الامر تعمى ولادته على ( هذا ) الخلق لئلا يكون لاحد في عنقه بيعة إذا خرج

 

Muhammad b. Musa al-Mutawakkil رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: Muhamad b. Yahya al-`Attar narrated from Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Sa`eed b. Ghazwan from Abu Baseer from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The birth of the Patron of this Affair will be hidden from the creation so that no one’s allegiance may be on his neck when he appears. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(majhool kal-sahih) (مجهول كالصحيح)

 

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ زِيَادِ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ الْهَمَدَانِيُّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ هَاشِمٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ أَبِي أَحْمَدَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ الْأَزْدِيِّ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ سَيِّدِي مُوسَى بْنَ جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنْ قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَ‏ وَ أَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظاهِرَةً وَ باطِنَةً فَقَالَ ع النِّعْمَةُ الظَّاهِرَةُ الْإِمَامُ الظَّاهِرُ وَ الْبَاطِنَةُ الْإِمَامُ الْغَائِبُ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ وَ يَكُونُ فِي الْأَئِمَّةِ مَنْ يَغِيبُ قَالَ نَعَمْ يَغِيبُ عَنْ أَبْصَارِ النَّاسِ شَخْصُهُ وَ لَا يَغِيبُ عَن‏ قُلُوبِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ذِكْرُهُ وَ هُوَ الثَّانِي عَشَرَ مِنَّا يُسَهِّلُ اللَّهُ لَهُ كُلَّ عَسِيرٍ وَ يُذَلِّلُ لَهُ كُلَّ صَعْبٍ وَ يُظْهِرُ لَهُ كُنُوزَ الْأَرْضِ وَ يُقَرِّبُ لَهُ كُلَّ بَعِيدٍ وَ يُبِيرُ بِهِ كُلَّ جَبَّارٍ عَنِيدٍ وَ يُهْلِكُ عَلَى يَدِهِ كُلَّ شَيْطَانٍ مَرِيدٍ ذَلِكَ ابْنُ سَيِّدَةِ الْإِمَاءِ الَّذِي تَخْفَى عَلَى النَّاسِ وِلَادَتُهُ وَ لَا يَحِلُّ لَهُمْ تَسْمِيَتُهُ حَتَّى يُظْهِرَهُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ فَيَمْلَأَ الْأَرْضَ قِسْطاً وَ عَدْلًا كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْراً وَ ظُلْما

 

Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim narrated from his father from Abu Ahmad Muhammad b. Ziyad al-Azidi.

 

He said: I asked my master Musa b. Ja`far عليه السلام about the saying of Allah عز و جل, “…and He lavished upon you His favours, both apparent (thahir) and hidden (batin)…” (31:20). He عليه السلام said: The apparent favour is an apparent Imam, and the hidden favour is an occulted Imam. So I said to him: And will there be any [imam] who is occulted from amongst the Imams? He said: Yes, his person will be occulted from the people’s sight, but his remembrance will not be occulted from the believers’ hearts. And he is the twelfth from us. Allah eases all difficulties for him, helps him overcome all adversities, makes apparent to him the treasures of the Earth, brings close to him all that is remote, eradicates the immensely arrogant through him, and with his hand destroys every disciple of Satan. He is the child of the master of slave women; he is whose birth will be concealed from the people, and whose name is not permissible to be named until Allah عز و جل makes him apparent and fills the Earth with equity and justice as it would have been fraught with injustice and oppression. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

وحدثنا محمد بن الحسن رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري ، عن علي بن محمد الحجال ، عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال ، عن عبد الله بن بكير ، عن زرارة بن أعين ، عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام أنه قال : إن للقائم غيبة قبل أن يقوم ، قلت له : ولم ؟ قال : يخاف ـ وأومأ بيده إلى بطنه ـ . ثم قال : يا زرارة وهو المنتظر ، وهو الذي يشك الناس في ولادته ، منهم من يقول : هو حمل ، ومنهم من يقول : هو غائب ، ومنهم من يقول : ما ولد ، ومنهم من يقول : ولد قبل وفاة أبيه بسنتين . غير أن الله تبارك وتعالى يحب أن يمتحن الشيعة فعند ذلك يرتاب المبطلون  قال زرارة : فقلت : جعلت فداك فإن أدركت ذلك الزمان فأي شيء أعمل قال : يا زرارة إن أدركت ذلك الزمان فأدم هذا الدعآ: « اللهم عرفني نفسك ، فإنك إن لم تعرفني نفسك لم أعرف نبيك ، اللهم عرفني رسولك فانك إن لم تعرفني رسولك لم أعرف حجتك ، اللهم عرفني حجتك فإنك إن لم تعرفني حجتك ضللت عن ديني » ثم قال : يا زرارة لا بد من قتل غلام بالمدينة ، قلت : جعلت فداك أليس يقتله جيش السفياني ؟ قال : لا ، ولكن يقتله جيش بني فلان ، يخرج حتى يدخل المدينة فلا يدري الناس في أي شيء دخل ، فيأخذ الغلام فيقتله، فإذا قتله بغيا وعدوانا وظلما لم يمهلهم الله عزوجل فعند ذلك فتوقعوا الفرج

 

Muhammad b. al-Hasan رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: `Abdullah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated from `Ali b. Muhammad al-Hajjal from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Faddal from `Abdullah b. Bukayr from Zurara b. A`yan from as-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام.

 

He said: Verily the Qa’im will be occulted prior to his rising. I said to him: Why? He said: He is afraid – and he pointed with his hand to his stomach – then he said: O Zurara, he is the awaited one, and he is the one whose birth will be doubted by the people. Some of them will say, “he is in the womb”, some of them will say, “he is occulted”, some of them will say, “he has not been born”, and some of them will say, “he was born two years before the death of his father”. Allah تبارك وتعالى loves to test the Shi`a, and upon this the wrongdoers will be deluded. So Zurara said: So I said: May I be your ransom, if I were to see this era, what should I do? He said: O Zurara, if you are to see this era, recite this du`a’:

O Allah,

Let me recognize You,

For if You do not let me recognize You I will not recognize Your Prophet

O Allah,

Let me recognize Your Messenger,

For if You do not let me recognize Your Messenger I will not recognize Your Proof

O Allah,

Let me recognize Your Proof,

For if You do not let me recognize Your Proof, I will deviate from my religion

He then said: O Zurara, there is no doubt that a young man will be killed in Medina. I said: May I be your ransom, will he be killed by the army of the Sufyani? He said: No, rather, he killed by the army of Banu fulan. They will come out until they enter Medina, and the people will not know in what thing they entered(?). They will take the young man and kill him. When they kill him in rebellion, enmity, and oppression, Allah عزوجل will not give them respite, for at that point the relief will be expected. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(muwathaq) (موثق)

 

ابن المتوكل، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن الهروي، عن الرضا عن آبائه (ع) قال: قال النبي (ص) والذي بعثني بالحق بشيرا ليغيبن القائم من ولدي بعهد معهود إليه مني حتى يقول أكثر الناس مالله في آل محمد حاجة، ويشك آخرون في ولادته فمن أدرك زمانه فليتمسك بدينه، ولا يجعل للشيطان إليه سبيلا بشكه، فيزيله عن ملتي ويخرجه من ديني فقد أخرج أبويكم من الجنة من قبل وإن الله(عزوجل) جعل الشياطين أولياء للذين لا يؤمنون.

 

Muhammad b. Musa b. al-Mutawakkil رضي الله عنه from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abd as-Salam b. Salih al-Harawi from ar-Rida from his forefathers عليهم السلام.

 

He said: The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said: By the One who sent me with the Truth as a herald, the Qa’im from my offspring will go into occultation with a covenant from me confided in him until the majority of people say: What remains for Allah in the family of Muhammad? And the remainders will doubt his birth. Whoever sees this era must grasp his religion, and he must not give Satan a way to him, as he will only take him off my path and away from my religion, just as he brought out your father and mother from Paradise before. Verily, Allah عز و جل has made devils the masters of the disbelievers. (Kamal ad-Deen)

 

(sahih or muwathaq) (صحيح أو موثق)

 

---

 

I have created a visual diagram of the transmission of this tradition. The results of the isnad tree below were created just out of a very brief review of a few books. A comprehensive tree would presumably be even larger.

 

 

Here, we see that traditions about the secret birth pass through books of Saduq, Kulayni, and Nu`mani, going back to at least six of the twelve Imams, through at least fifty-six narrators. From them are even giants like Abu Baseer, Zurara, Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr, Ibn Faddal, Ibrahim b. Hashim, and many others. This isn’t some argue belief that was disseminated by the ghulat – it was transmitted through a plethora of the biggest and the best.

 

It would have been impossible for this tradition to have been fabricated, as it survives through dozens of chains, many of which are reliable. These ahadith would have been preserved in different usool books prior to the birth of the Twelfth Imam عليه السلام – therefore, to fabricate a doctrine of this magnitude after his birth would have not been possible.

[CaLiFoRniA]

Those compilations are all post-ghayba. So, it is not really impossible to "fabricate a doctrine of this magnitude after his birth." Also, it is an erroneous presumption to simply say "these ahadith would have been preserved in different usool books prior to the birth of the Twelfth Imam." Which aḥadīth in which ūsūl books?

[The Green Knight]

Were any of the extra-12 "ahl ul bayt" you other lot took for your Imams follow, resemble or remind you of the Rasool (pbuh)? Did they have those "extraterrestrial" sort of super human qualities? You know. Did they satisfy the criterion of "awwaluna muhammad wa akhiruna muhammad"? If not, then please also accept me as one. ((ps: I like money and women)). I'll join your band wagon and together we shall terrorize the 12'ers as father and sons!!~ Biting on hadiths is like barking after cars, useless, same with mentioning the poor folk of past who went astray in so many different directions, only weakens your own case and makes you seem like clowns (no pun intended bro). What you need is ME as you imam and hadi and marja and leader and demigod. You need my brains to lead you and my feet to pile your wealths upon. I will lead you to cheese cake God. God who is our objective and purpose FOR IT ALL. Uh, right.~

[Gypsy]

But never mind all of that. I am happy just to get an answer to the question I was asking which is about why the brothers were rejected

 

The dilemma of which brothers will succeed the previous Imams didn't just happen with Imam #11. It happened way before starting with Imam # 4. People said that Ibn Hanafiyah succeeded his brother Hussayn ibn Ali (as) after Karbala. People also said Musa al-kadhim succeeded his brother Ismail ibn Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq after Ismail's death and so forth.

 

Not all the brothers are created equal. The case of Hassan and Hussayn was an exception to the norm and a very rare case which should never set a precedence ever to determine who should succeed in the Imam's lineage.

[CaLiFoRniA]

^ Those that believed al-Kāẓim (ع) was the next imām did not believe him to have succeeded Ismā'īl [but rather as-Ṣādiq (ع) himself]. I think you are referring to his other brother, `Abdullāh. Some of the Faṭḥīyya continued to believe in his imāmate while also believing that it [the imāmate] passed from him to Mūsā (ع) [i.e. between two brothers].

Edited April 6, 2014 by Krusty the Clown

[Qa'im]

^ Those that believed al-Kāẓim (ع) was the next imām did not believe him to have succeeded Ismā'īl [but rather as-Ṣādiq (ع) himself]. I think you are referring to his other brother, `Abdullāh. Some of the Faṭḥīyya continued to believe in his imāmate while also believing that it [the imāmate] passed from him to Mūsā (ع) [i.e. between two brothers].

 

Correct, I think hadiths like the ones in post #2 were circulating popularly to dispel the claims of the Fat`hiyya during the times of al-Kadhim (as) and ar-Rida (as).

[Username already taken]

He was the brother of Askari (as) and he claimed the Imamate. As a matter of fact so did Jafar whom you call the liar. Why did you guys not accept either of them as 12th Imam ? They were both Ahl ul Bayt

 

"Why Did You Reject Abu Jafar Muhammad ?"

 

As a matter of fact so did Jafar "whom you call the liar".

 

 

[IQRA07]

"Why Did You Reject Abu Jafar Muhammad ?"

As a matter of fact so did Jafar "whom you call the liar".

I don't call him.a.liar. I only used that term so 12ers would know who.I was.talking about. I have no.opinion on him at all.

Therefore the Zaydis to this day and originally the Fatamids, use the Hanafi jurisprudence, as do most Sunnis.^[6][7][8]

Brother with due respect, your imam zaid loved the caliphs and aisha. You can come up with any excuse you want but in your hadiths its clear. Its surprising that you would go against your imam o_O....

You ask a question, ill answer. No Problem :) . What do you mean why do they need to be designated? So the followers of Allah's religion knows who the imam of their time is. Oh boy, here comes this STUPID childish argument again. What is public huh? Can you please define it? Where in the quran does it say one must proclaim to the public? If so, prove to me why you follow prophets when there is no proof they proclaimed their prophet-hood. Dont being up the quran excuse for hadith are also divinely chosen words due to Muhammad A.S. But it doesnt matter, for their are chains and chains of hadith mentioning the successor of each imam and your going to tell me none of their followers knew or spread the word? How do you explain the number of their followers to this day and age, if they never proclaimed their imamate. This argument is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard and its getting quite old on this site.

Its really ignorant for you to say such a thing for you follow our first 4 imams as well, unless your lying and really not a shia. The argument goes right back to you and the fact that I already gave you such a argument to prove to me each of your imams specifically stated they were imams and who their next successor would be (to the public) and you didnt give me one single hadith shows your own incapacity. Its honestly funny because the only thing you brought was the Naghul Balagha and that was compiled by a shia imami. We have COUNTLESS hadiths on all these specific topics.. Just check out Al-Kafi for the start.

Now you're just being silly and argumentative. You can hate Imam Zayd (as) all you want to. I love him and.so did your.own.Imam Jafar As Sadiq(as). So your criticism of him.means.less than nothing.

As far as your criticism of ME it is again laughable. I asked about the Imam proclaiming his SUCCESSOR to the public not himself in my post.on this thread. Also it makes ZERO sense to.continue an argument with someone who is not debating you. I just asked for.clarification about your beliefs. It came to my attention that multiple people had claimed the Imamate after Askari (as) so I asked why you guys made the.choice you made. Nothing more nothing less.

Calling my arguments stupid will win you zero converts. So will suggesting that I perhaps am not a Shia.

I am certainly not, and inshaAllah never will be, a 12er but I AM a Shia. Just like the Waqifiyah, and Ismailis are Shia. I don't have to agree with someone for them to be a.Shia. We simply have different Imams

[GermanShia]

<<<Those compilations are all post-ghayba. So, it is not really impossible to "fabricate a doctrine of this magnitude after his birth." ?>>>

 

an often repeated argument. would like to know more about it

[Ansar_Allah]

Because the Imamate will not be given to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn.

 

 

 

From Kamal ad-Deen:

 

حدثنا أبي ، ومحمد بن الحسن رضي الله عنهما قالا : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفر الحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن عن الحسين بن ثوير أبي فاختة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال : لا تكون الإمامة ( 1 ) في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين عليهم السلام أبدا ، إنها جرت ( 2 ) من علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام كما قال الله جل جلاله : " وأولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله " ( 3 ) ولا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين إلا في الأعقاب وأعقاب الأعقاب

 

My father and Muhammad b. al-Hasan رضي الله عنهما narrated. They said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd from Yunus b. `Abd ar-Rahman from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never go to two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn عليهم السلام. It has proceeded from `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام just as Allah جل جلاله says, “Some of those who are bound by blood are closer [to each other] than others in the Book of Allah” (8:75). After `Ali b. al-Husayn, it will not go to anyone except a descendent and a descendent of a descendent.

 

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، وعبد الله بن جعفرالحميري جميعا ، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب ، ومحمد بن عيسى بن عبيد جميعا ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي نجران ، عن عيسى بن عبد الله العلوي العمري ( 3 ) ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عليهما السلام قال : قلت له : جعلت فداك إن كان كون - ولا أراني الله يومك - فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : فأومأ إلى موسى عليه السلام ، قلت : فإن مضى موسى عليه السلام فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، قلت : فإن مضى ولده وترك أخا كبيرا وابنا صغيرا فبمن أئتم ؟ قال : بولده ، ثم هكذا أبدا ، قلت : فإن أنا لم أعرفه ولم أعرف موضعه فما أصنع ؟ قال : تقول : " اللهم إني أتولي من بقي من حججك من ولد الامام الماضي فإن ذلك يجزئك ( 1 ) .

 

My father رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: Sa`d b. `Abdillah and `Abdillah b. Ja`far al-Himyari narrated together from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abu’l Khattab and Muhammad b. `Isa b. `Ubayd together from `Abd ar-Rahmn b. Abi Najran from `Isa b. `Abdillah al-`Alawi al-`Umari from Abu `Abdillah Ja`far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq عليهما السلام.

 

He said: I said to him: May I be your ransom, if it were to occur – and may Allah spare us from seeing your day – then to whom will it (i.e. the Imamate) go to? He said: So he pointed to Musa عليه السلام. I said: So when Musa عليه السلام passes away, to whom will it go to? He said: To his son. I said: And if his son passes away, and he leaves behind a grown brother and young boys, then to whom will it go to? He said: To his son, and so on forever. I said: So what if I do not know who [the Imam is] and I do not know his place, what should I do? He said: You say, “Allahumma, I pledge allegiance to he who remains from your Proofs from the loins of the Imam who has passed away” – that would be sufficient.

 

 

 

From Qurb al-Isnad:

 

الحسن بن ظريف، عن أبيه ظريف بن ناصح قال: كنت مع الحسين بن زيد ومعه ابنه علي، إذ مر بنا ابو الحسن موسى بن جعفر صلى الله عليه فسلم عليه ثم جاز فقلت: جعلت فداك، يعرف موسى قائم آل محمد؟ قال: فقال لي: إن يكن أحد يعرفه فهو. ثم قال: وكيف لا يعرفه وعنده خط علي بن أبي طالب صلى الله عليه وإملاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله. فقال: علي ابنه: يا أبه كيف لم يكن ذاك عند أبي زيد بن علي؟ فقال: يا بني، إن علي بن الحسين ومحمد بن علي سيدا الناس وإمامهم، فلزم يا بني اباك زيد أخاه فتأدب بأدبه وتفقه بفقهه. قال: فقلت: فاريه يا أبه إن حدث بموسى حدث يوصى إلى أحد من أخوته؟ قال: لا والله ما يوصي إلا إلى ابنه، أما ترى - أي بني - هؤلاء الخلفاء لا يجعلون الخلافة إلا في أولادهم

                                                                                                                                         

al-Hasan b. Thareef from his father Thareef b. Nasih.

 

He said: I was with al-Husayn b. Zayd and with him was his son `Ali when Abu’l Hasan Musa b. Ja`far صلى الله عليه passed by us, so he greeted him and carried on. So I said: May I be your ransom, does Musa know (or, recognize) the Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad? He said: So he said to me: If anyone were to recognize him, it would be him. He then said: And how is it that he would not recognize him when he has the writing of `Ali b. Abi Talib صلى الله عليه and the dictations of the Prophet (pbuh) So his son `Ali said: O my father, why was that not with my forefather Zayd b. `Ali? So he said: O my son, verily `Ali b. al-Husayn and Muhammad b. `Ali are the masers of the people and their Imams, so, my son, your forefather Zayd adhered to his brother, and was mannered by his etiquette and was trained by his fiqh.

He said: So I said: So, my father, if something were to happen to Musa, would he depute one from his brothers? He said: No, by Allah, he will not depute anyone except his son. Have you not seen – O my son – that these successors (al-khulafa’) do not make their succession (al-khilafa) go to other than their children? (Qurb al-Isnad)

 

 

 

From al-Kafi:

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن الحسين بن ثوير بن أبي فاختة، عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لا تعود الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين أبدا، إنما جرت من علي بن الحسين كما قال الله تبارك وتعالى: " واولوا الأرحام بعضهم أولى ببعض في كتاب الله (1) " فلا تكون بعد علي بن الحسين عليه السلام إلا في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr b. Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

 

He said: The Imamate will never be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn. It has continued from `Ali b. al-Husayn just as Allah تبارك وتعال said, “And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah…” (33:6). After `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام, it will not be except in the descendants and the descendants of descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 745)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن إسماعيل بن بزيع، عن أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام أنه سئل أتكون الامامة في عم أو خال؟ فقال: لا، فقلت: ففي أخ؟ قال: لا، قلت: ففي من؟ قال: في ولدي، وهو يومئذ لا ولد له.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazee` from Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام that he was asked if the Imamate can go to a paternal or maternal uncle. So he said: No. So I said: Then to a brother?  He said: No. I said: Then to whom? He said: To my son. And he, on that day, did not have any sons. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 747)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عبد الرحمن بن ابي نجران، عن سليمان بن جفعر الجعفري، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: لا تجتمع الامامة في أخوين بعد الحسن والحسين إنما هي في الاعقاب وأعقاب الاعقاب.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Sulayman b. Ja`far al-Ja`fari from Hamad b. `Isa from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام that he had said: The Imamate will not be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn, rather it is in the descendants and the descendants of the descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 748)

Great Post.