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In the Name of God بسم الله

Letting Them Behave Badly Because They're Disabled

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

 

When there is a grown adult who happens to be deaf or partially blind  but can interact adequately in a social capacity, to what extent should they be excused for bad behavior including injustice to others, intolerance and general rudeness. 

 

(wasalam)

 

Salam,

 

I have a hard time comprehending on your post. I am shock! Why wouldn't a grown deaf and blind person not be able to be tolerable? They have language. They have intellects. They have feelings. I don't understand why you would use deaf and blind people as a example of this. Have you not interact with disabilities individuals at all? I interact with all kinds of people who have a disability and never have I ever thought they were intolerable. 

 

Also, excuse them? For what? To be human? Why is it ok for a child to have a metal melt down, but a adult does not. Why should we excuse them and not disability adults. A child can learn right from wrong, but a Autism child does not.

 

Sigh...

Edited by DreamCatcher
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  • Advanced Member

Salam,

 

I have a hard time comprehending on your post. I am shock! Why wouldn't a grown deaf and blind person not be able to be tolerable? They have language. They have intellects. They have feelings. I don't understand why you would use deaf and blind people as a example of this? Have you not interact with disabilities individuals at all? I interact with all kinds of people who have a disability and never ever I ever thought they were intolerable. 

 

Also, excuse them? For what? To be human? Why is a child ok to have a metal melt down, but a adult does not. 

 

Sigh...

(wasalam)

 

Sister, I believe you have misunderstood due to my attempt to prevent gheebah, This isn't a generalisation of people who are deaf or blind! I am not calling people who have disabilities intolerant nor making an example of them.

 

This is regarding a particular scenario, regarding a real person that I didn't wish to go into detail as I didn't want to disclose their actions in detail on the internet if it could be avoided. 

 

As to the second part of your question without going into the explicits, I mean bad akhlaq, bickering and intolerance towards others in the mosque. Let me assure you I am not saying blind people and deaf people behave like this. Just that there is someone whose high level of intolerance is accepted by the masjid community due to their disability.  I wish to know whether the sc community thinks this is an appropriate reaction or whether theirs would be different. 

 

I don't quite understand your final comment regarding the 'mental melt down' I'm afraid. 

 

Oh and in regards to your question whether I have ever interacted with anybody with a disability, I have. In medicine, my line of study and work, I interact and provide care for with people with additional needs regularly and treat them with the respect I would anybody in my care. 

 

(wasalam)

I would think they should behave as any other adult, except that they may require assistance in some things. An adult who is mentally deficient might require some allowances.

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

Deafness and partial blindness are not afflictions that impair judgement or cognitive thought to the extent that one would consider them excuses for bad akhlaaq.

If a person accepts bad behaviour by an impaired person who has perfect control over the majority of his actions, then this is a misallocation of pity and will only serve to encourage or at the very least not discourage such behaviour in the future.

Answer: little to no leeway should be given, unless it is blindingly obvious that the person's blunder was caused by their disability.

(wasalam)

 

Thank you for your replies. I have to agree. The reason I asked is the general consensus at the mosque is that this person (who does not have any obvious cognitive impairment) should be allowed to be intolerant and this behavior is ignored and accepted whilst I do not see why a physical impairment should mean you are not accountable for what you say. Having said that, having such an impairment may affect your mood and hence your behavior so I was in two minds about the whole thing. 

Edited by *Sayyeda*
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  • Advanced Member

(wasalam)

 

Sister, I believe you have misunderstood due to my attempt to prevent gheebah, This isn't a generalisation of people who are deaf or blind! I am not calling people who have disabilities intolerant nor making an example of them.

 

This is regarding a particular scenario, regarding a real person that I didn't wish to go into detail as I didn't want to disclose their actions in detail on the internet if it could be avoided. 

 

As to the second part of your question without going into the explicits, I mean bad akhlaq, bickering and intolerance towards others in the mosque. Let me assure you I am not saying blind people and deaf people behave like this. Just that there is someone whose high level of intolerance is accepted by the masjid community due to their disability.  I wish to know whether the sc community thinks this is an appropriate reaction or whether theirs would be different. 

 

I don't quite understand your final comment regarding the 'mental melt down' I'm afraid. 

 

Oh and in regards to your question whether I have ever interacted with anybody with a disability, I have. In medicine, my line of study and work, I interact and provide care for with people with additional needs regularly and treat them with the respect I would anybody in my care. 

 

(wasalam)

 

Well it is hard to give any thought or advise when the situation isn't clear. Thanks for clearing it up.

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  • Veteran Member

Well…. Just make sure you are looking at this behaviour in perspective….  People with developmental disabilities often have problems with communication and can become frustrated more often than those of us who have all of our senses and cognition working for us. So, accommodation for communication systems should be given and, where possible, not placing people in situations (like high stim situations, for eg) where it is obvious that they will have difficulty coping. Otherwise, you will probably see the full range of behaviours we all have when we are super frustrated!

 

If not taught self-regulation (can be impulsive), cause and effect (can impact others with your actions), self-discipline (how to wait, take turns, etc) and effective use of communication systems (using visuals, assistive technology, etc), people with disabilities can become demanding and chronically obnoxious – and no, it is not acceptable. Unfortunately, typical people do not give them feedback when verbally assaulted (sometimes physically!), as they don’t know what to do and feel they should give them leeway and excuses based on the fact that they are disabled. If the person with the disabilities cannot cope with a specific situation – they shouldn’t be there till they can.  It is not fair to them either.

 

You need to tell people when they are impolite and disrespectful, and people with disabilities are no exception. Tell them in a way that they will understand, that you don’t like what they are saying or the way they are acting and don’t want to be around them when they are like that.  Making friends is huge for people with disabilities and saying you don’t want to be around them, turning your back and walking away, is powerful. 

 

Typical kids in school are taught to give feedback to kids (including those with disabilities) who kick or scratch or bite or say hurtful things, etc.  It is far more effective than the teacher stepping in and repeating over and over what is expected of them.  If they are held accountable for their behaviour by peers, in elementary school, hold them accountable as an adult.  You are, ultimately, helping them get along with people and be genuinely welcomed rather than just tolerated. 

 

But we also need to watch our own behaviour.  When at university, I helped with the Sailing for the Disabled at a local sailing club. I was really surprised how some people would interact with the disabled sailors.  If they were non verbal, people seemed to think if they yelled when speaking to them that they would understand better, or they would talk about them in the third person like they were not there, asking others to make personal decisions for the person with disabilities, or they would treat someone with cerebral palsy like they were cognitively disabled because they couldn’t express themselves and were spastic…etc etc.  We mean well, but we probably will never understand the cumulative effect of being treated like this day after day and how it effects a person.  

Edited by Maryaam
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A child can learn right from wrong, but a Autism child does not.

Not true. I have known many people, mostly children, who have autism. Autism affects perception and communication, but people affected by it are as capable of learning as you or I, though some things will be more difficult and much of what we intuit, a person with autism would have to be taught.

Expectations on an individual need to depend on the individual's capabilities, and need to push him or her to improve.

Edited by notme
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  • Advanced Member

Not true. I have known many people, mostly children, who have autism. Autism affects perception and communication, but people affected by it are as capable of learning as you or I, though some things will be more difficult and much of what we intuit, a person with autism would have to be taught.

Expectations on an individual need to depend on the individual's capabilities, and need to push him or her to improve.

 

You are right! I have seen this in children. However, it depends on the parents I guess and how they raise them.

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  • Advanced Member

I agree with what others have stated. They should be politely discouraged from bad behavior.

 

On the other hand, we need to understand why they act that way. Maybe they feel that it is an excuse for them? or they feel that others pity them so they want to seem tough by acting rude, idk. Just possibilities. They need to be understood, but not encouraged in any way. The only purpose for understanding them would be 1. so we know how to effectively discourage them. 2. just to make it a little easier to forgive them, just like any other adult.  

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

 

Well…. Just make sure you are looking at this behaviour in perspective….  People with developmental disabilities often have problems with communication and can become frustrated more often than those of us who have all of our senses and cognition working for us. So, accommodation for communication systems should be given and, where possible, not placing people in situations (like high stim situations, for eg) where it is obvious that they will have difficulty coping. Otherwise, you will probably see the full range of behaviours we all have when we are super frustrated!

Exactly! I think giving feedback is harder when the person is an adult as they are more set in their ways whereas even the most stubborn children, can eventually take feedback on board. What to do if this individual has been provided with respectful and polite feedback but refuses to acknowledge it and responds rudely?

 

Perhaps this is a situation the community has created itself. Whilst there has been a lot more disability awareness recently, I’m guessing this was not the case when this person was younger and therefore the fear of anything unknown meant the community instead of support, was happy to tolerate anything from a distance rather than get up close and resolve issues in a positive manner before they spiraled.

 

 

I agree with what others have stated. They should be politely discouraged from bad behavior.

 

On the other hand, we need to understand why they act that way. Maybe they feel that it is an excuse for them? or they feel that others pity them so they want to seem tough by acting rude, idk. Just possibilities. They need to be understood, but not encouraged in any way. The only purpose for understanding them would be 1. so we know how to effectively discourage them. 2. just to make it a little easier to forgive them, just like any other adult.  

 

I think you're right about it being number 1.  Having said that, I know a lot of absolutely lovely people who happen to be deaf so maybe it is unfair to attribute this so much to the disability and also take into account the individuals personality. 

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  • Advanced Member

Salams,

Be kind. We can't know what disabilities anyone has as some are not visible to our eyes or our knowledge. Just because someone has some obvious disabilities it does not mean that they don't have others. Imagine your life being blind etc. and you might be able to see how hard and frustrating it could be.

Be afraid of insulting or being mean to any of Allah's creatures as you might be wrongfully treating a friend of Allah.

If anyone is toooo hard for you to tolerate and it's not easy to talk to them about the problem in a nice way, just stay a little farther away from them and avoid conflict and hurt.

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  • Advanced Member

Salams,

Be kind. We can't know what disabilities anyone has as some are not visible to our eyes or our knowledge. Just because someone has some obvious disabilities it does not mean that they don't have others. Imagine your life being blind etc. and you might be able to see how hard and frustrating it could be.

Be afraid of insulting or being mean to any of Allah's creatures as you might be wrongfully treating a friend of Allah.

If anyone is toooo hard for you to tolerate and it's not easy to talk to them about the problem in a nice way, just stay a little farther away from them and avoid conflict and hurt.

 

(wasalam)

That's true, thanks. 

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  • Advanced Member

Bismillah.

 

Dear sister! Salaamun Alaykum.

 

No one has right to do injustice and rudeness to others in no circumstances;

 

"وَ اللَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمين"

 

“Allah does not love the unjust” (the Qur’an 3:57)

 

But I want to speak in regard with your duty, not theirs; they have a duty which accordingly to act normally like others, but if someone does not regard his/her duties, it doesn’t give you excuse to do the same; your duty, according to the Qur’an, is patience and tolerance as much as you can;

 

"اللَّهُ يُحِبُّ الصَّابِرينَ"

 

“Allah loves the patient” (the Qur’an 3:146)

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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  • Advanced Member

Bismillah.

 

Dear sister! Salaamun Alaykum.

 

No one has right to do injustice and rudeness to others in no circumstances;

 

"وَ اللَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمين"

 

“Allah does not love the unjust” (the Qur’an 3:57)

 

But I want to speak in regard with your duty, not theirs; they have a duty which accordingly to act normally like others, but if someone does not regard his/her duties, it doesn’t give you excuse to do the same; your duty, according to the Qur’an, is patience and tolerance as much as you can;

 

"اللَّهُ يُحِبُّ الصَّابِرينَ"

 

“Allah loves the patient” (the Qur’an 3:146)

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

 

(wasalam)

 

Thank you for bringing that perspective that even if somebody shirks their responsibilties, it doesn't give you a right to do the same. I suppose that's a good way to look at it. 

 

(wasalam) 

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